CAP 3 - Part 7 - Flavor Ability Discussion

[Deck Knight]

So now we know what our CAP looks like, and we've decided we'd like our remaining abilities to be focused more on flavor than competitive merit. It's time to discuss what Abilities, if any, we think would fit our CAP.

This is actually an important point, because Dry Skin is our sole competitive ability, and any other ability would by definition alter its performance in Sun. Still, I am open to having the discussion and coming up with ideas.

As far as what flavor means, an ability doesn't have to be useless, and I'd still like it to relate to the concept (i.e. it's typing relevant or uses advantages the typing brings), however it needs to be negligibly useful in comparison to Dry Skin, even if it does create a niche. So basically nothing like Regenerator / Intimidate / Further Immunity (Including Status) Abilities, Since most alternate abilities at this point would change some of the things we threaten into threats, I say make a go of it.

CAP 3 thus far:

Concept: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

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Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

Name: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

General Description: The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.

Justification: There are a lot of typings we scoff at on a daily basis because of their serious flaws, often forgetting about their strong points. For example, Poison is a really terrible offensive typing, but a decent defensive typing, while the Ice typing is good offensively, but awful defensively. Instead of just accepting that some typings will just ruin a Pokemon, this CAP concept aims to take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point! The reason this CAP could benefit OU is because a Pokemon who makes a "bad typing" into a great one could find many unique offensive and/or defensive niches that aren't currently found!

Questions To Be Answered

-What does it take for a Pokemon to overcome its "bad typing" so much that its typing becomes good? Are the stats the biggest contributer, is the ability the thing that saves it, does movepool make it a force, or is it a combination of the above?

-How does the typing makeover effect the Pokemon's playstyle? Does the Pokemon become a unique wall that uses its makeover to overcome its typing's normally fatal flaws, does the make over make a terrible offensive typing into a fearsome sweeper, does the makeover make it into a formidible combination of deffense and offense to a typing that brings it neither, or does the makeover bring forth something none of us see coming from the typing?

-Which resistances and immunities are the most relevant to the metagame? Sure, this concept is aiming to have a "bad typing" become good, but part of that will require the bad typing to have some key resistances and/or immunties to certain typings to defend against or set up on, while still having a very unorthodox competitive typing. This works the other way around too, what are the typings most relevant to hit super effectively or at least neutral?

-How will the rest of the OU metagame react to this extreme type makeover? Will Pokemon start carrying moves they normally wouldn't carry to break through a new defensive threat, will some Pokemon take on new defensive roles due to resisting the unorthodox STABs CAP 3 may carry? Or will This Pokemon, despite being a very real threat, not have many "custom made sets" to beat it, being more of a Pokemon that is a reaction to the metagame than causing a metagame reaction?

-Finally, how will this effect the teams CAP3 is on? Will this be the kind of Pokemon who needs a lot of support to become a threat, will this Pokemon be more of key team member to execute another strategy, or will this be the kind of Pokemon that's part of the glue that holds the team together?

Typing: Fire / Poison
Base stats: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
Abilities: Dry Skin / ??? (No Competitive Ability) / (???)

[Treadshot A1]

Download

I proposed this in the secondary ability discussion thread, but it didn't get much attnetion as it was nearing the end of the thread's life.

Anyways, i think Download should be the secondary ability, because it is the middle ground between Drought and Adaptability.

This was my post from the previous thread:

I'd like to suggest a slightly more out-there ability, and that is Download. Yes, I do realise that art-wise this makes little sense, but flavour aside, I see a lot of people in this thread complaint about Drought being able to provide a power boost AND weather, while Deck Knight said he didn't want Adaptability because it's permanent (and boosts both STABS instead of just fire). So why no Download? It provides a power boost without getting weather in play, and it's not permanent (though to compensate it provides a better boost than Adaptability does). It also means we have to be very strategic with CaP3, as we can't just switch in carelessly. It keeps Heatran as a counter (most run Special Defense so you'd end up with an Attack boost from Download, which is useless with CaP3's base attack stat), Dragonite isn't being beaten thanks to Multiscale and its ability to go mixed and even against physically defensive Gliscor (special attack boost from Download), neither STAB is going to do much, while Hidden Power would be a KO regardless of whether it had Download or not. In essence, Download is a compromise between Drought and Adaptability, and while art-wise it may be difficult, competitively it keeps our threat list relatively the same, while giving CaP3 the chance to shine on its own, instead of being reliant on rain-teams to find a niche for itself.

I still believe that Download provides CAP3 with a usable secondary ability, one that differentiates itself from the Dry Skin set, and one that allows it to achieve a role outside of utility rain counter. It also lets the typing shine, which is what the CAP is about, as it allows CAP3 to get a boost to its attacks, which lets it use the right type move for the job instead of having to rely on external effects such as Rain.

To further expand on why Download is good for CAP3:

Offensively: Download provides a unique benefit that few other abilities do: a situational and strategic boost. Download, with CAP3's base Attack, isn't something you can just whip out and expect to work. It's not Banded Haxorus. Download allows CAP3 to gain a boost to it's Special Attack, but only if it's played right, and switched in right. This makes it a potent threat on balanced and offensive teams which constantly look to getting extra momentum (which facilitates the correct switch for Download), while allowing it to still function well in more defensive roles (as CAP3 can now threaten to hit back). Download, unlike Adaptability, is actually something the player has to think about before using. Many people had Drought issues because it was just a plug and play ability. Just bring it in and you get an instant Fire boost. Download removes the certainty, but allows CAP3 to also gain the boost to its Poison moves as well. This makes it far more fitting to the idea of the CAP: making the typing shine.

Defensively: In more defensive roles, Download basically would act like Power Whip does on Ferrothorn: an unlikely but still credible threat. Think about how much less worried we'd all be if Skarmory didn't pack Brave Bird, or Bronzong didn't have Gyro Ball. Even though these are walls, they still pack a move that can hit you hard, so it's not like you can just chip away at them until they faint. Download does the same thing. It turns a defensive CAP3 into a threat, so you can't just keep your pokemon in and chip away at it when CAP3 switches in. Obviously, Fire/Poison isn't the best defensive typing out there, but it's an option should some good battler figure out how to use it.

Threats: Download has the advantage of not changing our threats at all. Heatran, one of the main checks to CAP3, will still not care about CAP3 with Download. It can shrug off a Download-boosted Fire/Poison attack, mainly because it's immune to both STABs. Most Heatran are also more specially defensive, so you'd get a pointless attack boost from Download. As i mentioned above, Dragonite and Gliscor don't get affected by Download; you can't get through the former, and the latter is KO'd by a nice HP regardless.

As for flavour, i was thinking that our cute little lava lamp snail (is there a technical term for it?) could actually use it's small size to focus it's attacks on an opponent's weak spots, thus emulating Download's description. Even things that get Download naturally, like Genesect, couldn't actually scan an opponent's pokemon, so it's left very open as to how a pokemon could use Download. I was thinking more of an "aim for the legs" approach, targeting where the opponent would be hurt the most. Also, given how CAP3 will be changing between Fire and Poison attacks, it could reflect how CAP3 can analyse the opponent to decide whether it burns them with it's lava lamp or poisons them instead.

[Agent Gibbs]

I guess no further immunity abilities means that Flash Fire is out of the question.

Well, it is a snail lava lamp thing, so perhaps Liquid Ooze? It's not a major competitive ability, but it would have some use in punishing users of Giga Drain, Drain Punch, and Leech Seed, which is assisted by the fact that it resists both Drain Punch and Giga Drain. It would also be a decent breakaway from the generic Flame Body/Magma Armor/Flash Fire/etc. pattern that many other Fire types follow.

[Tetrinity]

I'd like to bring up Suction Cups once more. I can totally imagine those legs being able to latch onto surfaces, and I feel it fits the concept well, which I'll get to in a moment.

Competitively speaking, Suction Cups has some use but I imagine not many people would be willing to give up the Water immunity, so I think this comes under "negligibly useful in comparison to Dry Skin". The only real usage Suction Cups would get would be on sun teams, although the occasional weatherless team might want to use it if the rest of the team has no issues with Water.

In terms of fitting the concept; well, two of CAP3's boons are the dual immunities to burn and poison. What better way to make the most of that than Suction Cups? Not only do you take no residual damage outside of sandstorm / hail, you can't be phazed out either. This combination, which no other typing can boast other than Fire/Steel, suits a bulky boosting set very nicely and gives CAP3 an excellent niche. The inability to be phazed out reduces the threat of taking extra hazard damage too, which is a nice plus.


Also, it's mentioned below a few times, but I'll throw in my support for Illuminate. Completely useless competively speaking, and does nothing for the concept, but it does fit so well in terms of flavour...

[chuckeroo777]

Illuminate or liquid ooze would be good flavor. (liquid ooze is useless, because most of the moves effected are grass, and who would use grass on this thing?)

sticky hold could also work.

[BloodGod22]

I want to suggest Aftermath as a secondary flavor ability.

It fits flavor-wise with the whole Lava Lamp design, once the shell breaks, the toxic flamable fluid inside combusts in the atackers face...or atleast thats what i picture it.

Also in terms of competitive value its outshined by Dry Skin completely, but its still a viable alternative for those that dont want Capmon to be hindered by Sunny weather.
That and shaveing off 25% of a revenge killers HP isnt too shabby.


Another ability that i would like to suggest would be Limber/Insomnia. Capmon is already immune to Burn and Toxic one more wouldnt hurt.

[Deck Knight]

So yeah I wasn't that clear in the OP, I'm also frowning upon Status Immunity Abilities since the remaining ones are almost be definition competitive, save maybe Magma Armor since nothing is going to deliberately Ice Beam a Fire-type.

[Birkal*]

Remember that CAP 3 will actually be using its NCA ability if a battler is going to use it in the sun; no one wants the Dry Skin residual damage. As a result, I'd encourage people not to go overboard and pick something like, Defeatist, for example. We want to make sure that this secondary ability isn't hindering its performance in sun, in my opinion.

I love Illuminate and I think it'd be a pretty big oversight not to give it to this design. I also like Tangled Feet because it looks like cone snailmon could get all tripped up with those flimsy legs (which would be totally adorable, by the way). Also, Oblivious is kinda fun. Gah, I just really want us to pick a cute ability because we have such a cute design. Something like Liquid Ooze doesn't appeal to me personally as much because it brings to mind Tentacruel, which is not a cutemon, haha.

We should give it Honey Gather, that schnozz could totally scour about for some delicious honey ' '===3

[BloodGod22]

What about Cute Charm?

It fits flavor-wise and it sure would be a nice change from Flame Body which most fire types get.

It will help Capmon survive longer if it triggers, giveing it the chance to throw in another boosting move or finish someone off.

We also dont have to worry about it outclassing Dry Skin in any way, since not only is Attract the weakest status move there is, its also dependant on gender, makeing it useless 50% of the time.

[srk1214]

Well inre Deck, I propose Magma Armor.

Lava = magma (just a change of location). The shell is the armor. Natural flavor.

Also, Sniper should be considered. Remember the video of the cone snail attacking? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcBKH7s4SVQ

I'm not a fan of Suction Cups or Liquid Ooze based on flavor at all. But Tangled Feet and Illuminate are fine.

Others of consideration, based on the armor deal are Shell Armor and Weak Armor.

[Weebos]

I think Oblivious is an obvious choice, it shares some common design elements of the other oblivious pokemon.

Unless of course we count that as a status immunity.

[FlareBlitz]

Most of the abilities so far seem to be playing towards the Fire side of the Pokemon, but I'd like something that plays to the Poison angle (since the design is already somewhat subtle about it). Poison Touch and Poison Point are obvious examples, but I'm kind of amused by the idea of Poison Heal, simply because this mon is impossible to poison, and it reminds me of the kind of thing Gamefreak pulled with Levitate Rotom-S. Poison Heal would be pure flavor, whereas Poison Touch / Point have uses that pale in comparison to Dry Skin.

[jas61292]

I have been saying since I first laid eyes on this art that there is one ability I want. Illuminate. I cannot think of a single ability that better fits the flavor of this Pokemon. I mean, its a frickin lamp. What do lamps do? Illuminate things. Honestly, I know people love trying to sneak in some competitive value, but this is a flavor ability, and Illuminate is, bar none, the best flavor ability for this design.

Let's see, pretty much all of the neat possible flavor abilities that I had thought up for this design have already been brought up by other posters (Aftermath, Cute Charm, Illuminate, Liquid Ooze, Poison Point, and Tangled Feet). I don't think that we're going to get more fitting than any of these, with Illuminate standing out as the top contender. Maybe we can give it Liquid Ooze or Poison Point later on as a Dream World ability.

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

DRIZZLE!!!

No, but seriously, what about Hydration? It plays along with Dry Skin, and it wouldn't overshadow it since the CAP3 is already immune to Burn and Poison anyways. It would give him temporary immunity to other status in the rain.....but nothing game-changing in comparison to Dry Skin.

[GRs Cousin]

Illuminate, Liquid Ooze, Sticky Hold, and Tangled Feet all sound good to me.

Illuminate should be given as a lava lamp snail. Something charming about having a funky little buddy to act as a night light that also brings style to your room.

The chemicals in its lamp would very well justify Liquid Ooze, as you really don't want to absorb that stuff. Eat your heart out, Drain Punchers.

Sticky Hold ties in somewhat with Dry Skin. The snail wants to keep its skin moist, and as such it'll be slimy when it's wet. Slimy is sticky, ergo Sticky Hold. Not too much of a stretch, hm?

Lastly, one of Mos-Quitoxe's supplementary artworks, specifically the one where lava lamp snail is dodging something, just screams Tangled Feet. That somewhat awkward yet reliable "Hey guys what's going on OH WHOOPS THAT'S NOT A FRIENDLY THING TO TOUCH WHOAWHOAWHOAAAAAAA" movement style is just full of personality. It's hard to go wrong with Tangled Feet, in other words.

Originally Posted by Fat Ahhhhhh......Clefable.

No, but seriously, what about Hydration?

Rain + Rest. Competitive viable. Enough said.

[capefeather]

Time for the bombshell option.

CAP 3 should not get any more abilities. Period.

The reason for my proposal should be obvious. Dry Skin is disadvantageous in the sun. Any other ability (other than I guess Truant and Slow Start... no, I'm not excluding Defeatist) would be something that could be put on CAP 3 for sun teams or to make it otherwise more usable in the sun. Therefore, (almost) every other ability automatically creates a niche that CAP 3 would otherwise not have, making it competitively significant.

This is not like the competitive ability discussions, where the practical viability of an ability next to Dry Skin was a relevant factor. The flavour ability stage goes far beyond that. If it creates any significant niche at all next to Dry Skin, it's no longer just flavour. So unless you want to go ahead and suggest Truant or Slow Start for CAP 3, I'd suggest not giving it any more abilities.

[jas61292]

I would like to disagree completely with capefeather. Sure, you can argue that CAP3 would play much differently in Sun if it could drop Dry Skin, but is that actually giving it a new niche? The answer is NO. Plain and simple.

Why? In order for it to have a niche, it has to be able to do something decent enough to be worth using in the OU tier, and Illuminate/Run Away/Honey Gather/etc CAP3 does not have such a niche. It is completely and totally outclassed by other Pokemon, most notably Heatran. It is an inferior option in any scenario, and if people have a desire to use inferior Pokemon, there is no reason to stop them. Toxicroak has Dry Skin and other abilities. Does any one ever use Anticipation Toxicroak to use it outside of rain? No. And before you say he doesn't benefit from anything but rain, think about it like this. It is not that he doesn't benefit from anything but rain, but that he is outclassed outside of it. This applies to so many OU Pokemon with multiple abilities. They are good with one, but outclassed if they use the other. Sure, for some it may get rid of negatives, but without the positives, there is no reason to use it over someone else. That is not a niche. That is inferiority.

So, unless that niche you are thinking of is UU, then there is no niche at all (And even then bar complex ban, Dry Skin is still better in all situations).

So, anyways, yeah, Illuminate is awesome.

[Quilph]

capefeather makes a very, very compelling argument, and I support it completely. I've been on board with the idea of calling it a day as far as abilities go. We shouldn't give CAP3 more abilities just because we can. That isn't a reason. Since people are putting serious thought into Illuminate, which does absolutely nothing (but also creates a significant niche which trumps flavor, as capefeather said), that indicates to me that our work here is done. I'm really not a fan of slapping on abilities just for the hell of it.

[Sphyxius]

I vote Suction Cups. I know Flash Fire is further immunity but I think it makes a lot of sense with its design (Poison is usually flammable). If you want cutesy, why not go for Cute Charm? I'd be interesting to see something OU-viable slinging around infatuation.

I think Overcoat would be interesting since it is completely useless on most of the things that have it. So would Rattled. If you want a truly useless but not hindering ability, lets just use Magma Armor. After all its a lava lamp-snail.

I still really like the Suction Cups idea though. It gives it a nice tacked-on niche in Baton Pass teams.

EDIT: I also disagree totally with capefeather. He's already struggling with poor speed and only "good" defensive stats on a poor defensive typing; if he doesn't have another option aside from Dry Skin he's going to be limited too much, and as Jas said, we've already created a pokemon that is completely outclassed by something else in OU (at least so far).... so from here on IMO we should be giving this guy some perks, we've nerfed him enough.

[srk1214]

I sort of like Cape's suggestion, I suppose, but I do question how "flavorful" no further abilities would be...

If we are deciding on additional ability/ies for pure flavor reasons, then I'm not sure cape's argument holds. The TOTAL number of all Pokemon with only one ability (no secondary, no DW) is very small. And almost all cases are Levitate, a signature ability, or when the Pokemon is Legendary.

Quite UN-flavorful to not give another ability in my opinion. If you like that competitively, fine. But the topic of the discussion is FLAVOR ability. So I'm voting for flavor here. We had our chance for competitive discussion about the second/third ability.

[Master of the Six Kings]

I like Oblivious, because it really fits the look of the Pokemon and doesnt offer much in the way of usage. Oblivious just feels right =]

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

Dry Skin is disadvantageous in the sun. Any other ability would be something that could be put on CAP 3 for sun teams or to make it otherwise more usable in the sun. Therefore, (almost) every other ability automatically creates a niche that CAP 3 would otherwise not have, making it competitively significant.

As others have already, I'm going to disagree with this. It's true that this could theoretically be a problem, but if we did our job right with the stat spread and if we do our job right with the move list, then using our flavor ability instead of Dry Skin will be "cute" but suboptimal 99% of the time, like a Dugtrio with Sand Veil or a Tyranitar with Unnerve. I don't think that's a problem.

[capefeather]

The Toxicroak example actually really highlights the misconception that I think people are having with my suggestion. While Anticipation and Poison Touch are practically not worth using on Toxicroak with respect to Dry Skin, the fact that these variants of Toxicroak are not hurt by the sun makes them significant enough. Automatically, when you compare Dry Skin to Anticipation and Poison Touch, you are gauging their usual (usually negligible) positive effects, PLUS the lack of disadvantages compared to Dry Skin - competitively relevant decisions. With CAP 3, it's even worse because it also gains an advantage just from being in the sun. By saying "it's outclassed by Heatran" you're already forced to entertain the idea as a niche, even if you reject it.

The real point here should really be looked at carefully, because it would be silly if I had to repeat myself:

If it creates any significant niche at all next to Dry Skin, it's no longer just flavour.

And again, anyone who finds it unflavourful to give it no other abilities in the first place have what I'm beginning to think is a rather fitting ability in Slow Start.

[Tetrinity]

To quote the OP:

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

As far as what flavor means, an ability doesn't have to be useless, and I'd still like it to relate to the concept (i.e. it's typing relevant or uses advantages the typing brings), however it needs to be negligibly useful in comparison to Dry Skin, even if it does create a niche. So basically nothing like Regenerator / Intimidate / Further Immunity (Including Status) Abilities, Since most alternate abilities at this point would change some of the things we threaten into threats, I say make a go of it.

The creation of a niche has been explicitly stated as being a non-issue, provided the alternative ability is nowhere near as good as Dry Skin. The great majority of the abilities mentioned so far in the thread accomplish this perfectly fine. Certainly there's no need to completely rule out the possibility of other abilities.