np: UU Stage 7 - Brand New Day

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kokoloko

kokoloko

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Okay guys, between the ban on Sand Stream, the new additions we got from OU (Mienshao and Scrafty), the many cool new toys to play with that BW2 brought us, and the loss of Mew, UU is certainly going to be shaken up quite a bit. All these changes should already be implemented into both the PO and Pokemon Showdown ladders.

Speaking of which, if you haven't done so yet, be sure to check out Pokemon Showdown, as Smogon will soon be making a full merger with that simulator--meaning it will be our official battle server and all tournaments, ladders, and challenges will be hosted there.

Let's go!

PS: How is RU already on Stage 8? -_-
 
People were worried about Mienshao and Scrafty-

The PO tiers has had Mienshao for a very long time and Scrafty for the past few months due to it dropping. We have 0 problems with them tbh. We thought Scrafty would be completely OP and wanted to get rid of it before it even came down.

Truth is: It functions so much better in OU than UU.
Our tiers are very similar at this point. I don't think you guys have anything to worry about.
 
Nice!
Well, i still use PO and i did tried some of the new BW2 there. My conclusions:

- Golurk will certainly go back to UU. Stealth Rock is a godsend for it, along with Ice Punch (SR/EQ/Shadow Punch and Ice Punch will be standard). It is even doable to run both Golurk and Froslass for a dual ghost + hazard abuse as long as you bring a a Wishpasser along, i guess.
-SleepTalk Throw is meh.
- Durant with Superpower is superpowerful

About both Mienshao and Scrafty: both are good, period. That's it. No hype coming from me.
After the Heracross hype and drama when it was at the bottom on gen 4 OU and then dropped to UU and people were like "well...", nothing will get my "broken seal of approval" before the actual playing.
Not that i'm playing a lot these years...

Anyways, maybe i'm being crazy but i can see both going along on a team pretty well. Scrafty can open the path for Mienshao to spam HJK while Mienshao can hack away some health for Scrafty to be able to get the necessary KO's and get a Moxie boost or two...

And the loss of Sandstream will affect the metagame, of course. Some pooes will take a nose dive in usage, while others are going to be more used (like Morning Sun Arcanine for example). I'm not playing that much to make a more precise analysis, so meh maybe i'm wrong


Also, DD RestTalk Dragonair with Marvel Scale is fun muahahahahaha
 
Wake up in the morning feeling like KICKING ASS

  • There are a few things I want try out in UU, but the main is Cofagrigous. I couldn't justify using it before, but now it gets pain split and its a fairly good Mienshao counter (it even counters BP sets with Haze). It also doubles as a great Heracross check, and straight up counters the SD set.
    EDIT: It's also a decent Durant check when it's healthy. Mummy nullifies Hustle, which is something I personally want to see come into play in various matches.

  • DW Ditto's free to use now, and i'll be sure to try it out... I have no idea how it will affect the UU meta.

  • I'm obviously intending to use Mienshao & Scrafty, who are likely going to be fairly strong threats in UU. I'm going to see if Mienshao's all-out attacker set will perfectly translate into UU / DD is the only set I see myself using on Scrafty

Hopefully this UU's best round. You know that they say, 7 is a lucky number...
 
Sadly Mew is gone, he would have become the most used Pokemon being able to counter all those Fighting-type Pokemon in the tier.

I've tested Mienshao and here are my findings:

+I've noticed nothing can really switch in safely into the monster, and it will do at least 20% damage with the combination of Fake Out and U-Turn. Predicting a chandelier switch is even better, as it pretty much always OHKO's the bitch with SE.

+With Snorlax and P2 in the tier, any Fighting type has something going for it. HJK will OHKO pretty much any Normal-type Pokemon as well as severely damage anything else daring to come in.

-Sadly Hi Jump Kick tends to miss which sucks..

-The same about not being able to switch in also goes for Mienshao, it can't switch into anything which makes it a synergic waste of a teamslot. It's a very good revenge-killer and a lead, but that's it.

-There are too many Pokemon that fully counter Mienshao, one of them always being pretty much on any team. Defensive Suicune, Blastoise, Shaymin, Sableye and even physically defensive Roserade can take hits. There is always one of these on opposing teams, at least as how I've experienced the PS! ladder. Sure you're going to say that your teammates can take care of those, but Mienshao just lacks raw power as well as bulk to perform as the star of a team.

After Fake Out/HJK/Stone Edge/U-Turn failed I tried exploiting a Bulk Up set, but even at +1 Defense it's too damn frail. Try to set up with such defenses and you'll end up giving the opponent a free kill.

I tried CB for a few battles, but after that quickly removed Mienshao from my teams. It just isn't what I expected it to be honestly, sadly...

So that's my opinion about Mienshao. I hope it won't become a hype for the sake of the users, you'll see it really sucks.

I personally haven't seen people using Durant or Ditto, but that's probably because the round is still young. I do expect Ditto to become a staple, before it vanishes to the depths of lower OU...
 
Crobat can use 252Hp/20Def/236Spe Bold to outrun +1 jolly scrafty and take 72-86% from stone edge which is halved when crobat roosts. Alternatively crobat could try 252Att/252Spe adamant brave bird which OHKO standard DD scrafty.
For BU scrafty crobat can taunt, but Sacred sword cobalion with CB Ignores the defense boosts and KOs
 
Before you claim Mienshao is bad (lol?), you should use this set:

Mienshao (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Hi Jump Kick
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

It's honestly one of the coolest things I've used in a long time. You can either use Sub in a conventional manner and get one/two free hits in or--if they have a hard counter to Mienshao, like Slowbro--you Sub on the switch and BP to something who can come out with the Sub intact. You can also use BP as if it was U-turn, since its essentially the same thing without the damage.

You can also stick a boosting move in over Stone Edge if you have something to take care of Ghost-types and stuff.

I didn't wanna spill be beans this early into the meta, but I think this is Mienshao's best set by far.
 
Wouldn't using Grass Knot over Fake Out, which is extremely predictable and not very powerful, allow LO Mienshao to get past Slowbro (one of few things in the tier who can switch into Mienshao repeatedly)? Naive LO Grass Knot does 43% minimum to 252/0 Slowbro, so it 2HKOs with enough prior damage (SR + Spikes) and it even has a good chance to 2HKO with just SR.

edit: You could even give up U-turn and use SE/HJK/Grass Knot/HP Ice to beat Gligar. While it's a lot more prediction-heavy since you don't have U-turn, safe switch-ins are extremely limited.
 
Not Jacky said:
Wouldn't using Grass Knot over Fake Out, which is extremely predictable and not very powerful, allow LO Mienshao to get past Slowbro (one of few things in the tier who can switch into Mienshao repeatedly)? Naive LO Grass Knot does 43% minimum to 252/0 Slowbro, so it 2HKOs with enough prior damage (SR + Spikes) and it even has a good chance to 2HKO with just SR.

edit: You could even give up U-turn and use SE/HJK/Grass Knot/HP Ice to beat Gligar. While it's a lot more prediction-heavy since you don't have U-turn, safe switch-ins are extremely limited.
Click to expand...
But in general Fake out has more utility. Sure Grass knot is nice, but since Mienshao has a nice speed tier, he's generally going to go first regardless. Fake Out, and U-Turn are basically free hits with virtually no drawbacks. Plus being able to break sashes is extremely nice.

Also, is it ever worth it to run Naive or Adamant? Or is this one of those situations where he will need that speed?
 
Heh, I'm ranked #1 in the current laddering. What an accomplishment!

Anyway I've been getting a lot of mileage out of a more defensive DD Scrafty set:

Scrafty @ Leftovers
Shed Skin
Jolly (+Spe - SpA), 4 HP/252 Atk/252Spe
Drain Punch
Crunch
Ice Punch
Dragon Dance

While it's less powerful from the get-go than LO or Moxie Scrafty, he can set up on a lot more pokemon by absorbing both weak-damage attacks and status. Not only does this make him more reliable (and I do love reliability) but he gets more boosts in the long run and can sweep more easily, at least for my playstyle.

I reeeeeally wish there was a single pokemon that countered Mienshao and Togekiss. Zapdos does great, but if there's rocks up then Mienshao can KO with Stone Edge even if Zapdos switches on Hi Jump Kick. Kiss just drives me nuts.
 
A Fhaol Bhig said:
Also, is it ever worth it to run Naive or Adamant? Or is this one of those situations where he will need that speed?
Click to expand...

Meinshao would probably always want to run that +speed nature. He doesnt seem like a poke who is meant to be a wall breaker, but rather just annoying-picking off-weaker pokemon-type.

Le sigh i wish I could try out this metagame right now, but pokemon showdown doesnt work for my computer for some reason :/ But Im curious how the SD set would work out. Of course no matter what it will be stopped by slowbro, cofagrigus, and almost any bulky ghost/psychic, but i see much potential in that set since meinshao causes tons of switches meaning it would have tons of opportunity to set up. Just like how almost nothing can take a SD heracross Close combat, I dont see anything taking an SD Hi Jump Kick. What do you guys think of that set?
 
I've found that intimidate bulkytop counters all versions of scrafty not running something unorthodox like zen headbutt... He can take any attack scarfty tries and can destroys it with close combat. Technitop makes a great check as it can revenge a weakened scrafty w/a high powered mach punch. Honestly, people are over hyping scrafty too much. It has 2+ counters and a variety of checks. If you ask me he'll fit right in to uu.
 
You know whats awesome, Sub-agility-petaya empoleon!

Seriously with roserade/zapdos/shaymin being able to handle all types of bulky waters once empoleon sets up late-game(which is pretty easy) its usually gg :)
 
Well I love the Sand Stream ban, but not with the reasoning given. This is not the thread for that discussion so I'll just clap on the sidelines and play the new meta. I DO, however, want to say thank GOD it was banned right before Stoutland got Superpower and Sandslash got Sand Rush. What impeccable timing.

Losing Mew is a big deal for me. Only a small group of mons in the tier could OHKO it, and those things that can are still at risk of losing. It's one of those pokemon that isn't overpowering but for some reason it always gives my teams trouble, sort of like Vaporeon in OU. Just bulky enough to survive and just strong enough offensively to poke holes in teams.

Scrafty is a really overrated mon, I've been saying this since the start of gen 5 and I'm sure as hell not changing my opinion now that it dropped to UU. It's not fast enough or strong enough to use Dragon Dance and not bulky enough to use Bulk Up. If Scrafty was in the DPP meta it would be amazing, but "zomg neutral coverage" doesn't work so much anymore. 90 base Attack isn't cutting it, even if it does have that sexy HJK

Mienshao will be neat. That speed is great and its movepool is shallow but well-suited to its needs. I'm already loving the Slowbro-Tangrowth-Mienshao core in the team I just made in my head.

Also, the addition of pinch berries makes a ton of pokemon much better. Sub Salac sets are going to be really tough to beat considering there's only two priority users in the top 35 of usage stats + Mienshao's no-STAB Fake Out. Not to mention SubPetaya Agility Empoleon /me drools
 
Mienshao and Scrafty will undoubtedly make an impact on the UU metagame. Only time will tell how far their potential reaches. With that said, something has to give. UU's been filled with superfluous, unfitting Pokemon for a while now, and more RU dropdowns are sure to come in the next three months.

Machamp usage is already low and likely to keep dropping as other Fighting-types continue to perform better with their already immense power and better speed. Scrafty and Mienshao will only make life harder for him, as they don't need gimmicks beat their checks. Despite this logic, I doubt players are willing to fully let him go at the moment. I'm seeing RU in his future, probably in January. Houndoom gained nothing but enemies and is bordering RU as is. I think his time in UU is over.

Significant increases in usage: Slowbro, Crobat, Empoleon, Heracross, Gligar.
 
Thank. Fucking. God.

Scrafty's been one of my favourite Pokemon since the release of Black and White, but for the past 2 or 3 months, I haven't been able to use it because I wanted to see it drop to a metagame where I believe it would excel in. I'm quite excited to use this little monster once again.

The loss of Mew, I believe is going to be a positive one for UU. It was far too unpredictable and far too lethal after one or two boosts. It wasn't overly broken, but it was a lot like Terrakion in OU; difficult as fuck to play around.

Personally, I feel that Mienshao is getting a bit over-hyped. Gligar really shuts that set down that Kokoloko mentioned, and could force it to run Hidden Power Ice or Water. Cofagrigus is going to hurt it too, seeing that the UU community is gaining interest in the Sarcophagus Pokemon.

New UU looks fun.
 
I have been using Cofagrigus a TON lately, simply because it provides so much usefulness in one pokemon. I use him as a Fighting counter, Spinblocker, and sweeper, and he fits in amazingly on most offensive teams who need something that can take hits and dish out damage at the same time. He is also one of the few setup sweepers who cannot be revenged by Ditto, which makes him even more awesome.
 
kokoloko & crew, are we still testing Sand Veil-less UU instead of Sand-less UU, cuz I was really looking forward in seeing Sandslash rising from obscurity and have some limelight in the UU scene. Sandslash is far less powerful than Stoutland, being much slower (Adamant Sandslash are slower than +Spe base 90 Scarfers; Jolly Sandslash are slower than +Spe base 105 Scarfers). Not to mention it shares identical weakness as Hippopotas, compounding Sand team's weakness. Unlike jrrrrrrr, I felt that the Sandstream ban was a bad timing (not to mention the reason for the ban).

I have mixed feelings about Mew and Hippowdon going up to OU, but I see them dropping right back to UU with all the BW2 buffs shoving them aside.

I share the same enthusiasm as all of you about pinch berries. SubSalac Moxie Heracross anyone :d

PS: ah right; thanks, kokoloko.
 
kokoloko said:
Now, seriously. Stop beating a dead horse. I'm not going to move a finger until we are at least a couple weeks into the new metagame, but I promise you, I actually am considering your proposition. In fact, I already have something in mind to re-test the sand metagame with Sandslash and Superpower Stoutland. Be patient.
Click to expand...
 
PsYch071c said:
I have been using Cofagrigus a TON lately, simply because it provides so much usefulness in one pokemon. I use him as a Fighting counter, Spinblocker, and sweeper, and he fits in amazingly on most offensive teams who need something that can take hits and dish out damage at the same time. He is also one of the few setup sweepers who cannot be revenged by Ditto, which makes him even more awesome.
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused as to how he cant be revenged by Ditto.
I'm assuming you're using something like CM/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting/whatever to set up.

Now if Ditto comes in, whats stopping it from getting your boosts and being faster than you with scarf and beating you?


Also Crobat is very useful. He was all around great before but he's starting to get more usage which is great imo.
 
What a slightly more decent metagame. Now all I have to do is test some of these 'mons, and make sure UU stays decent a metagame. Which means I'm going to have to rehaul that Roserade team I had from a couple months ago to include new stuff.

At least the new stuff is a good reason to help with UU and RU, making sure they're much more balanced. To be frank, I kinda look forward to some of these new B2W2 changes and how they'll impact the metagame.

...Scrafty and Mienshao in UU? Time to use their positive traits to break UU, which will have the added bonus of sending Machamp to RU where it belongs.
 
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