Opportunity Cost and Ubers Teambuilding

[mtr]

Was talking to Theorymon about this earlier, figured I might as well post about it.

I dunno how many of you remember early DP OU, but there was a pokemon called Garchomp, and a pokemon called Swampert. Garchomp was actually defensively stronger than Swampert, and had superior speed as well. So why did people favor defensive SR Swampert sets, but disdain such sets on Garchomp?

The answer is Opportunity Cost, the value of the next best alternative. The best alternative for a Swampert set was either Curse or CB, which were super situational. The best alternative for a Garchomp set was Scarf or SD, which were...good. And so, many people used Swampert for SR, but not Garchomp.


In Ubers, this matters mainly in terms of Arceus. When people say an Arceus form (usually Bug/Fire/Ice) is "bad," they don't mean it's a bad Pokemon. They mean the opportunity cost of using that Arceus form is too high. The next best alternative to that form usually ends up being something like Extreme Killer or CM Ghost, which are better than those Pokemon except in niche cases.

Also, Bug/Fire/Ice Arceus are hard to put on teams IMO, they aren't very self-contained, instead requiring a lot of support.

I dunno, that's what I think at least.

[bygbyrd]

Opportunity cost is relevant with every pokemon you select for your team. It mainly boils down to your team and what roles need to be filled.

Say your building a team and you need a Kyorge check and some offensive presence. So you tack on a CM Latias. This is a great pokemon and CM is basically its best set. But what if the team needed a scarfed pokemon here. A scarf Palkia fills the role of the Kyogre check, and gives this hypothetical team the revenge killing capabilities it needs.

Opportunity cost isn't just about what other options a certain pokemon has, but also what other pokemon could take its place, or what roles need to be filled.

[ssbbm]

another thing about garchomp is that you can have another SR setter on your team, but you can't have another garchomp

if only garchomp knew SR then it'd be kinda reasonable to use sr on garchomp

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

another thing about garchomp is that you can have another SR setter on your team, but you can't have another garchomp

if only garchomp knew SR then it'd be kinda reasonable to use sr on garchomp

Garchomp does learn SR. It's a 4th gen TM that he learns, as well as a BW2 tutor move that he receives.

Isn't a large part of the reason that people use defensive Swampert but not defensive Garchomp that Swampert's usable in tiers in which Garchomp is banned? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's not an apt comparison because Swampert's more-or-less unusable in Ubers. Defensive Garchomp would probably be fine in OU (although, yes, the opportunity cost of using it is pretty high), but in Ubers, it's outclassed by better defensive Pokémon, such as Dialga.

[TheStarRapper]

I guess this point is particularly relevant in a tier where there are a bunch of forms for quite different 'mons. The Arceus example has already been brought up (it really is not hard at all to run an Extremekiller on any team, as simple as survive a turn to set up SD then kill things). This Opportunity Cost applies to other forms as well, especially to the Giratina forms, and the new Kyurem forms.

If you run Kyurem-W, then you don't get to run the awesome physical power of Kyurem-B. When you bring Giratina A on a team, you miss out on Giratina-O's levitate (clutch for stall teams trying to avoid hazards, and dodging Groudon's EQ is always fun).

That is just the form-choosing aspect of OC, while movesets, items, and even coverage moves are all opportunity cost decisions in their own right.

[mtr]

Originally Posted by Fat Fizz

Garchomp does learn SR. It's a 4th gen TM that he learns, as well as a BW2 tutor move that he receives.

Isn't a large part of the reason that people use defensive Swampert but not defensive Garchomp that Swampert's usable in tiers in which Garchomp is banned? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it's not an apt comparison because Swampert's more-or-less unusable in Ubers. Defensive Garchomp would probably be fine in OU (although, yes, the opportunity cost of using it is pretty high), but in Ubers, it's outclassed by better defensive Pokémon, such as Dialga.

I was talking about DP OU. I guess most people don't remember it haha.

[I Am]

I remember it, and you had to use an offensive chomp because it was that good. You're right, the same exact situation exists with Arceus. If you're not using Normal/Ghost/Grass/Water (?)/Electric (?), you're giving up a potentially amazing pokemon for one that's simply above average.

[mtr]

Eh, right now Normal/Ghost/Steel/Grass and maybe Fighting are the best Arceus formes, everything else is situational.

[Pokémon Trainer R]

I think Arceus-Ground, Rock, Water, and to a lesser extent, Dark are also pretty good, but having used Arceus-Fighting extensively in a few of my teams, I'd say that it is easily one of the worst.

[locoghoul]

Arceus Rock in the sun. USE IT.

Seriously, it counters most pokes that usually gives trouble to sun teams like Ho-Oh and Reshiram. It can check Kyurem-W to lesser extent too. Under the sun it can also wall the GenIV dragons only fearing the rare Aura Sphere (sometimes is not even a 2HKO).

[Poppy]

fighting arceus kicks ass, if you use the right spread it's a semi-reliable check to extremekiller, it also is one of the few CM formes that threatens Dialga and Ferrothorn, not to mention being resistant to stealth rock. it's extremely weak to mewtwo and that's why you pair with fucking wobbuffet

WORD LIFE

edit:
i use fighting arc more to scare out pokemon than to actually sweep, and to check ekiller. it's great on rain balance when supported by wobbuffet and stealth rock dialga with a sturdy ghost (mitigating ho-oh and mewtwo weaks), these two pokemon are excellent additions to rain balance anyway so......... it's a tier 1 pokemon in my eyes for sure

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Well, all Pokémon in Übers have their own unique niches that could make them useful in some specific situations. For the record, the fact that Arceus-Fighting can easily dispose of Dialga and Ferrothorn was actually the primary reason why I decided to use it in the first place, as I noticed that rain teams seem to struggle immensely against them. However, even in spite of this huge advantage Arceus-Fighting brings to the table, I still quit using it in the end, as the ease with which it can be pseudo-Hazed away by Lugia (even with Ice Beam or Dark Pulse at +1 or +2 and without Multiscale intact), combined with its susceptibility to status effects (as it cannot run Refresh or Substitute since too many Pokémon in Übers resist or are immune to its Judgment, forcing it to use a coverage move), and most importantly the fact that it is way too easily threatened by Psystrike and Brave Bird regardless of the number of Calm Minds it has accumulated (and Mewtwo and Ho-Oh are two of the worst Pokémon to be countered by, since they can just come in whenever Arceus-Fighting is out, putting Arceus-Fighting's trainer in a situation in which they must choose to either risk sacrificing their Arceus (which is usually the "figurehead" of its team, mind you) or switch and risk getting another Pokémon badly-damaged, if not letting the opponent set up a free Calm Mind/Substitute/Flame Charge) ultimately made me think that it usually creates more problems than it is worth. And not to mention that in addition to the three aforementioned huge disavantages, using Arceus-Fighting also prevents one from using another Arceus Forme... which kind of brings us back to this thread's topic of discussion, haha.

I have also used Arceus-Rock in the Sun as well, and I can also say that it is absolutely fantastic for the reasons locoghoul mentioned. With Will-O-Wisp and Roar, it can also "counter" Arceus-Normal (I put those marks around the word "counter" because I personally do not view the use of Will-O-Wisp as being a reliable method to counter Extreme Killer Arceus) due to its resistance to ExtremeSpeed.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

fighting arceus kicks ass, if you use the right spread it's a semi-reliable check to extremekiller, it also is one of the few CM formes that threatens Dialga and Ferrothorn, not to mention being resistant to stealth rock. it's extremely weak to mewtwo and that's why you pair with fucking wobbuffet

WORD LIFE

edit:
i use fighting arc more to scare out pokemon than to actually sweep, and to check ekiller. it's great on rain balance when supported by wobbuffet and stealth rock dialga with a sturdy ghost (mitigating ho-oh and mewtwo weaks), these two pokemon are excellent additions to rain balance anyway so......... it's a tier 1 pokemon in my eyes for sure

quoting poppy here for truth. fighting arceus is definitely a top tier uber and threat. i find it to be excellent against stall. think of all the mons that are part steel type like forry and skarmory. they take huge hits from judgement, and like poppy said it checks ekiller and is great when paired with wobb.

[Urwurstnightmare]

I don't know if Arceus-Fighting can 2HKO Blissey/Chansey with a focus blast. Considering the fact that Kyogre's Water Spout and Reshiram's Blue Flare can barely 2HKO it. Though even though it could miss out on the 2HKO without rocks or other hazards, it is still very good on catching things like Darkrai,Extrem Killer, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress off guard. Though you might have to watch out for Focus Sash and Sturdy for Darkrai,Skarmory, and Forretress.

[SpecsX]

It fails to 2HKO Chansey w/ out Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes with Focus Blast at +1, but I prefer Judgement over Focus Miss anyways. A +1 Judgement fails to 2HKO Blissey without Rocks and a layer of Spikes, and is walled by Chansey. A +2 Judgement 2HKOs both of them with rocks.

[trickroom]

No Calm Mind Arceus can beat Blissey/Chansey unless you are running Refresh or Substitute. The exceptions are Calm Mind Poison Arceus and Steel Arceus.

Calm Mind Poison Arceus is not bad at all, it can use Sludge Bomb to spread around Poison damage, however if you are relying on burns, paralysis and Toxic poison, you might want to use Judgment instead.

Offensive Fighting Arceus comes close in beating Blissey with Judgment. I am talking about 252 SpA Fighting Arceus. Don't use Focus Blast, it misses quite often, Judgment has way more PP, and is generally more consistent.

[Splendiferous]

Focus blast is so shit I don't know why you'd even consider using it over fight judgement.

[mtr]

Originally Posted by Fat trickroom

No Calm Mind Arceus can beat Blissey/Chansey unless you are running Refresh or Substitute. The exceptions are Calm Mind Poison Arceus and Steel Arceus.

Calm Mind Poison Arceus is not bad at all, it can use Sludge Bomb to spread around Poison damage, however if you are relying on burns, paralysis and Toxic poison, you might want to use Judgment instead.

Offensive Fighting Arceus comes close in beating Blissey with Judgment. I am talking about 252 SpA Fighting Arceus. Don't use Focus Blast, it misses quite often, Judgment has way more PP, and is generally more consistent.

I'm pretty sure that Fighting Arceus, Fire in Sun, and Water in Rain can beat Blissey/Chansey if they get paralyzed or come in on one layer of Toxic Spikes.

[Anikrahman1995]

Originally Posted by Fat mtr

I'm pretty sure that Fighting Arceus, Fire in Sun, and Water in Rain can beat Blissey/Chansey if they get paralyzed or come in on one layer of Toxic Spikes.

Every Offensive calm mind arceus can beat Blissey/Chansey if they switch into one layer of toxic spikes or get burned.
Example:
252SpAtk Meadow Plate +6 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Judgment vs 4HP/252SpDef Eviolite Chansey (+SpDef): 53% - 63% (345 - 406 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Remember this is just an example. I dont really mean that Grass Arceus uses and offensive calm mind set.
4SpAtk Dread Plate +6 Multitype Arceus (Neutral) Judgment vs 4HP/252SpDef Eviolite Chansey (+SpDef): 43% - 51% (280 - 331 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 5% chance to 2HKO.
One crit = gg.

[papita]

Well good luck getting to +6 before they fucking kill you. Sure you can recover but toxic damage will rack up and you will die before you can kill the pink blob

[Anikrahman1995]

Originally Posted by Fat papita

Well good luck getting to +6 before they fucking kill you. Sure you can recover but toxic damage will rack up and you will die before you can kill the pink blob

Are you blind? I said that they can switch into one layer of toxic spikes and recieve only regular poison damage. This way, they cant be toxic'd

[papita]

Apologies. I thgought the blissey needed to be statused in order for you to beat them. My mistake

[trickroom]

Besides Ghost Arceus, if you lack Refresh, that one layer poison damage, can add up pretty quickly when Chansey is repeatedly using Seismic Toss on you. 12.5% + 100 HP every time will wear out Arceus pretty fast.

Fire Arceus in sun can still beat the blobs though with Calm Mind sun-boosted Fire Blasts. Water Arceus is generally less offensive, and if you don't use HP EVs, Seismic Toss will do quite a bit more damage in the long run. 16 PP Recover is not that hard to stall out with repeated poison + Seismic Toss damage and Arceus needs to be at +6 to 2HKO the blobs with Judgment ( assuming standard CM Grass Arceus )

[barry4ever]

As a general thumb rule, if you have an Arceus which is specially based and your opponent has a Chansey, your Arceus will probably we walled easily and toxiced unless its Poison (lol) or a Steel Arceus. Even Ghost Arceus will lose eventually since it has to depend on bs Focus Blast. But, if you can get it to switch on a layer of toxic spikes, it can completely wreck your opponents stall team with a couple of boosts.

[shrang]

Max SpA Fighting Arceus can 2HKO Chansey at +1 with Judgement, IIRC, although you are probably looking at getting Toxiced. SubCM Ghost Arceus can also tell Chansey to get fucked.