NU Stage 5 - Amoonguss Suspect Discussion

jake · Aug 5, 2012

Hey there.

Amoonguss has been selected as a suspect for Stage 5. Everyone is welcome to participate in discussion and elaborate on your opinion of Amoonguss in the current metagame, and whether or not it is ban-worthy. Please justify all of your arguments with statistical proof if it is possible (here's a link to a damage calculator if you need one, and here's a link to last month's stats if you need them as well). Senate members and rotating council members are expected to post and participate etc.

While this is a debate and you are trying to convince the people voting that Amoonguss is / isn't broken, please remain civil and have respect for everyone else posting their thoughts. I will not hesitate to edit / delete posts that are rude or insulting to other members. I will also not hesitate to delete inane or flat-out stupid posts, either (ie. "Amoonguss is broken because it's #1 in usage!"). I really would have wished this didn't have to be said, but if you don't have experience in NU, don't post here either...

Anyway, this thread will be closed in a few days and the Senate and council members will send in their votes. Argue your hearts out.

ChaoticaMortis · Aug 5, 2012

My previous post on Amoonguss:

Okay, so it looks like everyone wants this thing gone just a little bit, and I can't say they aren't justified in thinking so. Amoonguss is one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier, and its access to Spore makes it very hard to completely play around. It has also caused the complete elimination of Toxic Spikes due to its Poison-typing. Regenerator keeps its HP up, while it's got enough bulk to switch into something, attack / Spore, and then switch out with most of its health. Fortunately, just like every other Pokemon I've covered so far, Amoonguss has plenty of negatives to balance out the positives.
Base 30 Speed is about as impressive as it sounds, and even with a decent amount of offensive investment its special attacks aren't going to be doing loads of damage to much, even if they're super effective. Sap Sipper Pokemon such as Miltank don't care about Amoonguss at all, and can easily force him out. Pokemon that inflict status on themselves for a boost, such as Swellow and Zangoose, don't have to worry about being hit with Spore and can heavily damage Amoonguss to either KO or force it out. I think Drifblim deserves a mention as AcroBlimp can Substitute before a Spore and then OHKO with Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics. We've also got a few viable Pokemon that run abilities which directly prevent sleep from affecting them that can force Amoonguss out (Vigoroth, Hypno, and Banette are all somewhat good). The reason I'm pointing out all of these Pokemon is because I think the biggest reason Amoonguss is being attacked by everyone is because it currently fucks with a metagame that we've solidly established and don't want to change up too much. The same thing happened with Gorebyss; everyone cried out for a ban the round that Gory got popular, but after we adapted to its offensive powers it dropped in usage and we virtually forgot that it existed.
Amoonguss is definitely the most controversial Pokemon in our current discussion. After using it for the entirety of this round, I can say that it isn't broken, furthermore it shouldn't be banned. Give yourselves time to adjust to it rather than calling for it to be immediately removed.

My previous post on Amoonguss being used together with Alomomola:

This core deserves serious discussion, because these two Pokemon are an entirely different monster when used together. This is arguably the best defensive core in NU right now, and extremely tough to deal with unless you know how to predict and carry Pokemon to specifically deal with it. A primarily offensive team carrying this core can easily go on the defensive and stall things out if it loses one or two of its main sweepers, which can be significantly annoying at the least. Proper prediction and the use of Toxic + Clear Smog can make this core almost impossible to muscle through (or at least, this is what I've found from quite a few of my battles on the ladder). The fact that both Pokemon have Regenerator adds yet another level of the stress that these two can cause for their opponents.
By no means am I suggesting we ban the core; that's stupid. However, I do think that Amoonguss is much easier to hate when facing it paired up with Alomomola, and that's where the real problem is. I would never say that Amoonguss should be banned just because of what it can do on its own, but I'm definitely on the fence after seeing how damn effective it is when used with Momfish.

Again, gonna be short and sweet here. I've posted about this guy quite a bit already; if my opinion isn't clear yet then a giant essay isn't going to change anything.
I don't think Amoonguss should be banned, as it's just another defensive wall when used by itself. Almost everything that Amoonguss does can be similarly done by Tangela. Amoonguss faces a number of hard counters, is complete setup bait after it Spores something (if it even gets to Spore something), and is only really a huge issue when used in tandem with Alomomola.
For now, I'm pretty much convinced Supershroom isn't broken, but I might be convinced otherwise by arguments that follow my post. See if you can sway me.

dinosaurdan · Aug 5, 2012

Its hard to say whether it should or not. On one hand, it has Spore, takes out Toxic Spikes with its typing, works great in a core, has a great ability in Regenerator, 115/70/80 defenses work well, resistance to Fighting, Grass, Water, etc. On the other hand, solid checks in Sap Sipper, Psychic types, Flying types, Vital Spirit, (some) Fire types, SubDisable Haunter, Klang, Sleep Clause, it has the speed of a normal mushroom, and a predictable movepool.

Personal experiences show that Klang usually gets a free setup from this thing, as Amoongus can't do shit to it. Swellow (and Zangoose) are immune to Spore if their orbs have activated, which helps immensely. I'm going to have to agree, Amoongus is pretty good, but not THAT good to get banned.

watashi · Aug 5, 2012

Amoonguss can be compared to another extremely bulky Grass-type in the tier, Tangela. It beats a huge amount of physical attackers in the metagame and can't be gradually worn down thanks to Regenerator. While both have their respective qualities, I think that it's safe to say neither is better than the other. People argue that Amoonguss has Spore, which pushes it over the edge, but honestly I don't think anyone relied on Tangela missing Sleep Powder to beat it when it was the top bulky Grass-type. Amoonguss doesn't provide significant offensive pressure either, it's simply a solid wall that can utilize a sleeping move. Many new threats are being utilized more in order to set up and counter Amoonguss. This isn't a bad thing for the metagame since they are often perfectly viable Pokemon such as Substitute Calm Mind Gardevoir or Sap Sipper Miltank. Amoonguss doesn't break the metagame, it's simply requiring us to adapt to it. If Tangela gets the boot in the near future, then you can go ahead and kick Amoonguss out as well, but otherwise, do not ban it.

melvni · Aug 6, 2012

As someone whose been using Amoonguss since the start of the BW2 NU metagame I'd like to state my feelings on it. I'm going to premise this by saying I've been using it in conjunction with Alomomola and that I've actually been using a Specially Defensive spread rather than the more common Physically Defensive one (the ability to do this well I might add is something that definitely differentiates it from Tangela).

Amoonguss is definitely a very powerful wall, and something that can tank attacks from a lot of Metagame threats. It also is a wall that benefits from being forced out due to Regenerator. Amoonguss tanks hits from a large portion of the tier unboosted, and can be infuriatingly hard to wear down if it doesn't want to be worn down, especially when partnered with Alomomola and something that can take the types of hits they both struggle against. That being said, There are plenty of things that Amoonguss is completely unable to do anything to no matter the set once something is successfully sacrificed as Sleep Fodder or even while asleep, such as Weezing, Skuntank, Haunter, Drifblim, other Amoonguss, Garbodor, Bastiodon, Probopass, and probably several others, and many things can come in on it, force it out, and set up.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on what people have been saying about what beats Amoonguss with regards to what my experience has been:

Sap Sippers: I assume by this people are referring to switching in the Sap Sipper to stop Spore from working. In that case, though this may be in part be because I run Substitute in the last slot, but this is works essentially just for Miltank, since all the other four Sap Sippers in NU are terrible defensively and can't take repeated Sludge Bombs (All there standard sets are taken out after they switch in on Substitute and take Stealth Rock and Sludge Bomb damage twice). Miltank however is a very good stop to Amoonguss, especially if it manages to switch in on a Spore or Giga Drain

Swellow and Zangoose - No argument here. Unless Amoonguss is behind a Sub they straight up beat it. If it is however, they're not going to like eating a Sludge Bomb.

Psychic Types: Standard Life Orb Kadabra vs. Specially Defensive Amoonguss: 70.14-80.64% Completely Uninvested Amoongus Sludge Bomb vs. Standard Kadabra - 51.58-61.09%. Substitute Amoonguss can wear down Kadabra the first time it comes in and kill it the next. Gardevoir and Musharna definitely beat it, but it can be put to sleep if Amoonguss is behind a sub. However admittedly my view of how Psychics match up against it may be distorted because I run Absol, which generally traps and kills any Psychics that try to take Amoonguss out.

Flying Types: Not much of an argument here. Almost all Flying types beat it if it's not behind a sub (though if it is, many of them can be worn down unless they run Roost) with the possible exception of defensive non-dragon dance Altaria who can't really do much back.

Vital Spirit: True they can't be Spored, but all the Vital Spiriters in the Tier, with the exception of Vigoroth who sometimes runs Slack Off according to the analysis, generally run no recovery and can be worn down by repeated Sludge Bombs (something they will definitely have to take on the Substitute set each time they switch in). Regarding mons with Insomnia, they are all generally not that threatening in general (Banette, Hypno, Noctowl, and Ariados) or have better abilities (Murkrow).

(Some) Fire Types: Not much argument here. Emboar and Charizard without Roost can be worn down with repeated Sludge Bombs from behind Substitutes, but, Torkoal, Camerupt, and Flareon are never going to be beaten by Amoonguss if something is already asleep.

Sub-Disable Haunter: I've never faced or don't remember facing this set, so I can't say much here but Haunter in general shuts down Amoonguss so I imagine this would as well.

Klang: Same goes for this as for Haunter, though I agree I don't know exactly how Amoonguss would beat Klang, though it is very, very rare.

Sleep Clause: No argument here, once Amoonguss has used its Spore it's much less threatening, though running Sub like I do can greatly frustrate people's attempts to fodder the thing they want to fall asleep and the threat of sleep in itself can be as bad as actually using it.

On balance, I don't think it's broken either by itself or in tandem with Alomomola, especially with Shadow Tag Gothitelle coming out in a couple days, since both halves of Alomomoongus are completely screwed over by it unless they run Shed Shell, meaning no Leftovers or Rocky Helmet.

Swamp-Rocket · Aug 7, 2012

In my experience of playing against (not with) Amoonguss, while Regenerator has certaintly helped its defensive capabilites, it isn't really all that different in what it needs to do. It is rather bulky and has spore to incapacitate another Pokemon, but in the end, it could do that beforehand too, and the sleep clause screws it over when it finds a dangerous foe. In addition, while Amoonguss fares well against a wide majority of attackers, it also is easily stopped by a large portion of the tier, like Charizard, Emboar, Gardevoir, Braviary, Swellow, Zangoose, Sap Sipper Miltank, Musharna, etc, and it has almost no tricks up its sleeve to defeat these foes bar Spore. And even then, its limited movepool means that while it can wall things for quite a while, they can similarly wear it down as well. For example, a Pokemon such as Skuntank may not hit Amoonguss that hard, but Amoonguss is very limited in options it can use against it. While Synthesis helps fix this issue, Amoonguss's options are more limited than before.

While it is a rather sturdy mon and does remarkably well against a lot of the tier, the fact that it is taken down by many Pokemon in the tier does it no favors. Regenerator helps repair some mistakes, but sometimes, it cannot do much about a lot of sweepers. I've seen Amoonguss come in and out, but sometimes, it can do nothing about a Pokemon like SubRoost Charizard, and goes down like other members of its team late in the game. While the threat of Amoonguss makes it needed to carry 2 or more Pokemon that perform well against it on a team, the sheer number of Pokemon available to defeat Amoonguss makes this not to much of a problem. Thus, I think Amoonguss should not be banned.

Fun With Knives · Aug 7, 2012

I'm not going to say much, but I will say that my usual strategy against Amoonguss is to simply status it back. Neither part of the Alomomola/Amoonguss core can carry Heal Bell or Aromatherapy, so at that point they're either taking constant burn damage or they're paralyzed, both making it significantly easier to KO them or force them out.

Ewil · Aug 7, 2012

I resume the points that, for me, Amoonguss should be banned

- Good defensive type in Grass/Poison
- 114/70/80 lets Amoonguss being a Defensive, Special Defensive or Mixed wall
- Flying and Psychic are finded only as STAB moves (very rarely someone runs them as a coverage moves) so the counters/checks with this moves-types are very predictable, Fire and Ice are more common as coverage moves, but if Amoonguss is at full health, he probably can take a hit thanks to his defensive stats and switch out recovering with Regenerator
- Can use Leftovers/Black Sludge and a more reliable sleep inducing move over tangela
- His Poison type lets him being immune to toxic (the most feared status for a wall) and can absorbs Toxic-Spikes too (also being #1 on the usage stats forces players not to runs T-Spikes)
- The use of Spore incapacitate a pokemon per match and this is, for me, the most broken and annoying thing
- Clear Smog can nullify the act to beat Amoonguss by setupping in the face (except for something like Musharna or his worst enemy: Gardevoir)
- Regenerator lets Amoonguss recovers a 1/3 of his health when he switchs pratically curing SR+3 spikes layers (and with only SR you can figure that the things are even more easy for Amoonguss)
- Substitute lets Amoonguss being more conservator with Spore and more devastating with attacking moves (85 SpA aren't bad)
- Giga Drain and HP Ice are all the coverage that he needs.

I know that a lot of mons can counters/checks Amoonguss, but that what team mates are for and one of his counters/checks can be crippled by Spore.

Reading the above thoughts maybe is only me that have all this problem with the big murshroom, so the last thing that i have to say is: don't let Amoonguss being in NU thinking that in three months he will quit the tier, it's not a certainty (with this i don't think that the only your justification to not ban Amoonguss is that. I respect all your thoughts :))

Raseri · Aug 7, 2012

Amoonguss is clearly a very good Pokemon in NU, becoming the most used Pokemon in the tier. However outside of Spore it isn't even a great Pokemon. Regenerator was a nice buff for Amoonguss, making it impossible to wear down over the course of a match, but it does not break Amoonguss at all. Spore is the best part of Amoonguss, being able to sleep one of your counters is a huge part of what makes Amoonguss good. Amoonguss is a sturdy pivot, but it doesn't really wall that much, it walls SD Samurott, Absol kinda. The tier hits so hard against grass types like Amoonguss that it can't really live up to its full potential. Amoonguss really struggles to stand out after it uses Spore, so its the threat of Spore that makes Amoonguss good. However Amoonguss is not broken since it doesn't have defensive or offensive presence. It is merely a good pivot Pokemon, and a lot of Pokemon in the tier are able to absolutely destroy him. Therefore Amoonguss should not be banned.

KingQuag · Aug 8, 2012

I just thought that I would throw in my two cents on this just because it is just about midnight here right now and I have nothing better to do right now.

Amoonguss has just been one of those pokemon that I personally feel has always been too good for NU, I can't necessarily back that up because I don't know what I felt that way myself, and I've only ran it outside of NU. I was dreading the day that both Amoonguss and Trollomola both got released with Regenerator because both of them together are a pretty damn tough defensive core. Just like someone further up the thread (My lazy hurts too much to find and quote them) Amoonguss is as threatening as it can be when it is paired with Trollomola, so the best way to prevent people from using this hell hole of a core is to ban the worse of two evils, seeing as Trollomola can be dealt with a lot easier as long as you have a Sub up. The next thing is that Amoonguss is more than likely going to get booted out of the tier come the next tier change granted that it leapt to #1 in NU and #50 in OU (don't quote me on that, because like I said earlier my lazy hurts too much to quote something else) So why not just do a favor and just rip the band-aid off right now so that there aren't a ton of butt hurt people complaining about how they need to re-adjust their teams when the time comes.

My vote is to ban the SexyShroom

jake · Aug 8, 2012

KingQuag said:
Amoonguss has just been one of those pokemon that I personally feel has always been too good for NU, I can't necessarily back that up because I don't know what I felt that way myself, and I've only ran it outside of NU

Why would you be posting about how broken a Pokemon is in NU, then?

CrashinBoomBang · Aug 8, 2012

Amoonguss went from a good mixed wall, mostly eschewed in favor of Tangela for the latter ones physical bulk, to the primary check to a lot of Pokemon, all thanks to its new ability Regenerator. It shot all the way up to number one in usage stats for this month and is, without a doubt, one of the most influential Pokemon in the current metagame. However, does that mean Amoonguss is also broken and/or unhealthy for the metagame? In my opinion, it is not.

While Amoonguss has fantastic mixed bulk, a 100 percent accurate sleep move and a great ability which allows it to stay alive longer, it is subject to most of the flaws Tangela carried with it as well. While sleep is definitely a poweful weapon in Generation 5, there's the problem of only being able to sleep one Pokemon; combined with Amoonguss' offenses which, although decent, really don't threaten Pokemon such as Emboar and Braviary substantially, there are many free turns for those aforementioned Pokemon to come in on a helpless Amoonguss and wreak havok, especially once Sleep Clause has been activated.

Furthermore, there are a multitude of Pokemon that set up on it with ease and can threaten whole teams, even if it's partnered with Alomomola (Sub Swords Dance Lickilicky, Sub Pain Split Weezing, etc). While its bulk is by no means bad, it also isn't invincible on the physical spectrum at all; Golurk's Choice Banded Earthquake 2HKO's it, Sawk's CB Ice Punch does the same, CB Emboar and Braviary obviously wreck it, and so on. If it goes specially defensive to differentiate itself from Tangela, it just takes hits like that even worse.

All in all, Amoonguss is a lot like Tangela, being a Grass-type with good physical defense and Regenerator. It does have a 100 accuracy Sleep move, sure, but 100% isn't all that much more than Tangela's 75 accuracy Sleep Powder, especially considering the latters physical bulk allowing it to probably try and sleep something more than once. Apart from that, Amoonguss just trades the pure Grass typing for a Grass/Poison typing which comes with its own problems. In short, Amoonguss is a lot like Tangela with a few differences: Neither of them is even remotely broken but both have a very good spot in the defensive lineup of the Neverused metagame. No Ban.

jake · Aug 13, 2012

Votes will be held shortly.

NU Stage 5 - Amoonguss Suspect Discussion

jake

underdog of the year

ChaoticaMortis

dinosaurdan

watashi

melvni

Swamp-Rocket

Fun With Knives

Ewil

Raseri

KingQuag

jake

underdog of the year

CrashinBoomBang

außerirdisch, anunnaki

jake

underdog of the year

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)