|Oct 7th, 2012, 10:26:24 AM||#1|
slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ
Join Date: May 2009
emma stone <3
emma stone <3
Hi. I need to stop RMTing every half-decent team I make, I waste far too much time writing these things. Also I don't really expect anyone to read this intro, its massively tl;dr and is mostly moaning about the suspect ladder.
This is the team that I used throughout the Sand Veil suspect test, and is easily the most solid one that I have built in the last few months. I'd been in a teambuilding slump since midway through wcop, being completely unable to build something that wasn't a pile of steaming horse shit. This team ended that slump. I'm writing this RMT because I'm bored, wanted to show-off TR Cress a little and also gives me somewhere else to give my impression of Showdown's ladder system and suspect as a whole. For anyone interested, my laddering alts were emma stone <3 and pyramids.
The team was originally built around Specs Heatran in sun. In the early stages of teambuilding I stumbled across Quiet Eruption Heatran, and decided that I wanted to at least give it a shot in OU. After some quick calcs against Heatran switch-ins, I was sold. Cresselia has always been a favourite of mine on Sun due to its ability to single handedly take down many offense teams between Moonlight and chipping away at the opponents team, but I knew for this team I wanted to try something a little different. On previous sun teams I had used Psyshock / Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Fire] / Moonlight, but I had the idea of Trick Room to not only help it counter the likes of DDNite, Mamoswine, Garchomp and Landorus, but also to help set-up SpecsTran. Although the team was build around Heatran, Cresselia has without a doubt been the MVP in almost every game I've played on the suspect ladder, even sweeping entire teams on occasion despite its relatively low damage output.
The other 3 members of the team changed quite a lot over the course of suspect. The initial team was Ninetales / Cresselia / Heatran / Dugtrio / Hitmontop / Venusaur, and worked well prior to the ladder crash because Rain (and by extension, Tornadus-T) wasn't too common because people wanted to test out Sand Veil Garchomp. This team matched up very well against standard Tyranitar / Garchomp teams, but had a lot of problems against Rain offense whenever I did come up against it. After the Showdown crash, Rain offense became much more popular, likely as an anti-Sand Veil measure. I knew I had to change something with the team because it really just had nothing to really beat Tornadus-T outside of keeping Heatran incredibly healthy, as it can bait Torn into Superpower and tank it decently, OHKOing with Hidden Power [Ice]. I decided to try out a Specially Defensive Rotom-W over Venusaur at first, as its a reliable check to Tornadus-T as well as other Rain threats such as Starmie and Choiced Politoed. Hitmontop was also being pretty disappointing, and failed to really pull its weight against anything but stall, where Foresight Rapid Spin became invaluable.
Very soon after this I decided to give the team a big revamp, as although I had patched up the rain weakness somewhat, the team became weak to the incredibly common Techniloom, and was still weak to hard-hitting Special attackers like Latios and Gengar. After losing a battle to 3 Ice Beam misses vs Sand Veil Garchomp, I decided I also wanted a couple of other checks on top of Cresselia. Dugtrio, Hitmontop and Rotom-W were scrapped for Specially Defensive Skarmory, fat Starmie and Venusaur again in an attempt to bring a more balanced approach to the team. I really liked SDef Skarm but after a couple of games of getting torn apart by Choice Band Terrakion, I decided to replace it with Specially Defensive Bronzong. Bronzong checks the same sort of stuff (Lati@s, Tornadus-T, etc), but its Rock-type resistance at least deters Choiced Terrakion from spamming Stone Edge early-game.
Anyways, I bet nobody will ever read all this. I hope you enjoy this team and I implore you to go and give Trick Room Cresselia a shot. Its an excellent anti-metagame threat in OU as well as suspect, and I can ensure you won't be disappointed. Also just want to throw out that this is one of the few Sun teams around that isn't destroyed by Rock Polish Landorus. Also, although the team has Trick Room as its heart it doesn't need it to function, so its not really a "trick room team" per se. I have plenty of battles where I lose Cresselia early due to hax or my own misplay, but the team isn't reliant on Trick Room at all so its not like I can't come back from it.
Jules (Ninetales) (F) @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 152 SDef / 108 Spd
- Hidden Power [Rock]
Ninetales, no way! We all know how this works by now. Obligatory Drought mon, brings Sun which the team functions best under, powering-up Heatran's Eruption, giving Cresselia optimum Moonlight recovery, activating Venusaur's Chlorophyll and keeping Rain in check a little.
This set has changed quite a bit. I used to have Sunny Day / Flamethrower / Toxic / Hidden Power [Rock]. Toxic was generally to hit Politoed, Hippowdon, Volcarona, Latias etc but I decided to change it to Will-o-Wisp for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it deals more damage to stuff like Politoed over the course of 2 turns, and Politoed is rarely staying in for much longer than that anyway. Will-o-Wisp also helps a lot against Terrakion and Tyranitar switch-ins. Roar was added because I got swept by SubCM Latias once, and its also generally good utility against a bunch of other stuff that uses Ninetales as set-up fodder. Flamethrower is the obligatory sun-boosted STAB to spam when I have no other better options, and Hidden Power [Rock] is purely for breaking Heatran Balloons and doubling up as a check against last mon Volcarona. Speed investment hits 262, outspeeding Adamant Gyarados, Dragonite and Mamoswine.
Gwen (Cresselia) (F) @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 SAtk
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Without a dought, the MVP of the team. Trick Room Cresselia finds plenty of opportunities to set-up against standard offense teams, who generally have no way of touching her outside of Genesect, which gets cleanly OHKOd by Hidden Power [Fire]. Cresselia is my go-to answer to a bunch of common threats that tear apart the common Sun team; Garchomp, Mamoswine, Dragonite, and Rock Polish Landorus.
Since the original idea behind the team was to help SpecsTran cause as much damage as possible, I previously had Lunar Dance over Hidden Power [Fire]. The basic plan was to Trick Room, to set-up Heatran, then switch it in on U-Turns from the likes of Genesect and fire off Eruptions. If Heatran ever got too weak, Lunar Dance would heal Heatran back to full HP and as a result, give it full power Eruptions again. However, in practice this never really worked out, and I can't explain why. Generally Cresselia was too much of a key player against so many threats that I rarely found myself wanting to use Lunar Dance in the first place. I changed Lunar Dance for Hidden Power [Fire], as I was beginning to find Genesect + Dugtrio Rain teams pretty annoying, and I never looked back since. Cresselia immediately became the team's key player, with Specs Heatran almost as an afterthought in the event that Cresselia couldn't handle the opponents team singlehandedly.
Trick Room is the crux of the set. On previous sun teams I used Psyshock over it but with Genesect + Dugtrio running everywhere I decided to opt for Trick Room to royally screw them over as gene switches in. Trick Room also ends up being a lifesaver when something like DDnite crits me and KOs, as it leaves me with Heatran as a back-up answer. Ice Beam hits Landorus, Garchomp, Dragonite, and although its completely unboosted it still hits hard enough considering I'm almost always hitting on 4x weaknesses. The same is true of Hidden Power [Fire], which is primarily for Scizor and Genesect but is also useful for Forretress, Ferrothorn and Mamoswine. The lack of speed investment means Cresselia will outspeed anything it really needs to in Trick Room, whilst outspeed Scizor out of it, which works out perfectly in practice. 32 SAtk EVs guarantee the OHKO on max HP Scizor with Hidden Power [Fire] after Stealth Rock.
Faraday (Heatran) (F) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
The Pokemon the entire team was based around. To say Specs Heatran packs a punch is an understatement; nothing in the game (bar specially defensive Kingdra etc 9.9) can take 2 Eruptions from this thing in the Sun with Stealth Rock in play. Lets look at some calcs:
vs 252 HP / 0 SDef Chansey = 54.68 - 64.48%
vs 0 HP / 0 SDef Dragonite (Multiscale) = 46.43 - 54.27%
vs 0 HP / 0 SDef Dragonite = 93.18 - 109.59%
vs 0 HP / 0 SDef Terrakion = 101.85 - 119.75%
vs 0 HP / 0 SDef Latios = 92.05 - 108.27%
vs 0 HP / 0 SDef Latias = 79.47 - 93.17%
vs 252 HP / 0 SDef Latias = 65.93% - 77.74%
vs 0 HP / 0 SDef Garchomp = 96.36 - 113.68%
vs 252 HP / 0 SDef Scizor = 840.81 - 990.08%
you get the idea
The set probably doesn't need any explanation but I'll give some anyway. Eruption is the move I'm spamming for the entirety of the early game; generally I'll try and make sure Politoed / Tyranitar / Heatran are dispatched of before firing off Eruptions but even if they aren't, none of them enjoy a Specs Earth Power anyway (38.61 - 45.51% to Max/Max Tyranitar). Flamethrower is the reliable STAB option for late-game if Heatran has taken too much damage. Hidden Power [Ice] hits Dragons when Eruption isn't powerful enough, but I've been tempted to change for Dragon Pulse in that past for the generally good neutral coverage when its a 50:50 on whether my opponent will switch to Latios or Politoed, for example.
Heatran's excellent defensive synergy with Cresselia is what makes the combination really work. Heatran resists Dark-, Ghost- and Bug-type attacks that are aimed at Cresselia, although it won't always want to switch-in at the risk of weakening Eruption too much. Heatran's Ground- and Fighting-type weaknesses are also perfectly covered by Cresselia, who can use these resistances to set up even more Trick Rooms.
Weaver (Bronzong) @ Leftovers
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Atk / 28 Def / 208 SDef
IVs: 0 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
The latest addition to the team, replacing SDef Skarm who replaced Dugtrio. Although getting rid of Dugtrio seems questionable, without any U-Turn / Volt Switch users its generally pretty hard to get it in to trap anything, since everybody just double switches out of Heatran and Tyranitar or have Shed Shell anyway. Although I liked the mindgames it played with people, I don't really find Dugtrio to be a necessity on Sun anymore (like it pretty much was in BW1) unless you have a dedicated U-Turn core for it, at which point you might as well just run GeneSun. I mainly disliked how Dugtrio is one of the most unreliable Stealth Rock users in the entire game.
Bronzong, on the other hand, is one of the most reliable SR users, as this guy is nearly impossible to take out in one hit outside of STAB Fire-type attacks. Bronzong is my go-to guy for a bunch of stuff like Lati@s and Tornadus-T, as well as serving as a back-up check to Garchomp. Gyro Ball is the standard STAB option, and hits everything pretty hard because of Bronzong's incredibly low speed. Earthquake hits Heatran switch-ins (or under Trick Room!), and just has good neutral coverage on an obvious switch-in to a Steel-resist. Toxic is purely for bulky waters like Slowbro, Politoed and Jellicent, making it even easier to wear them down with Heatran. Hidden Power [Ice] would be useful but I don't really have the room for it. I can't remember what the EVs do, ask bkc if you really want to know.
Olive (Starmie) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spd
- Rapid Spin
Fat Starmie isn't as good as it was in late BW1 but its still an excellent Pokemon, as well as being one of the better spinners around. I do miss Hitmontop's Foresight Rapid Spin against full stall w/ Jellicent, but Starmie is a much more consistent Spinner against most other team types, Deo-D offense in particular.
The moveset and EV spread is standard. Rapid Spin is obvious. Scald looks a bit weird considering its a Sun team, but its mainly for hitting Tyranitar / Ferrothorn on the switch-in and hoping for a burn, and hits Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Genesect etc hard in Rain. Psyshock is the secondary STAB for hitting Gengar and Tentacruel primarily, but also comes in use for Terrakion in Sand and is the best option Starmie has available to hit Blissey and Chansey. I know a lot of people don't use max speed on Starmie for some reason, but its still useful for the speed tie against Azelf and opposing Starmie.
Witchita (Venusaur) (F) @ Life Orb
EVs: 232 HP / 108 SAtk / 168 Spd
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
I wanted a Chlorophyll Pokemon with a bit of bulk to it, so it could act as a pivot and switch-in on Defensive Politoed. Who else but Venusaur? Venusaur often ends up as the team's win condition against stall, boosting up with Growth and using Chansey and Blissey's massive HP stat for reliable recovery with Giga Drain. The moveset has changed quite a bit since the original version of the team; I was previously using Hidden Power [Ice] and Sludge Bomb for a while but didn't like being completely unable to hit Steel-types and Heatran. Hidden Power [Fire] and Earthquake patched up these issues nicely, although I do miss being able to hit Dragonite.
The EV spread is tailored for exactly what I need from Venusaur. 232 HP gives it a decent amount of bulk, meaning it can switch-in on stuff like Politoed and Keldeo a couple of times, as well as making it harder to revenge-kill via priority. 168 Spd with a Timid nature allows it to outspeed Scarf Terrakion and Keldeo. The rest of the EVs are dropped in SAtk to give Venusaur some punch. A Timid nature may seem weird with Earthquake, but I didn't want to compromise Venusaur's bulk at all, and Earthquake is pretty much only used for Heatran anyway.
vs Opposing team types:
I see Hippowdon a lot on these sorts of teams. Idea is to get Heatran in as much as possible as it 2HKOs everything easily. Physically defensive Hippowdon is OHKOd by Eruption in Sand, Specially Defensive takes upwards of 85%. Venusaur is also useful here, since they have to pivot around a lot to get into Hippowdown for Sand and then get into Genesect. If I can burn or poison Rotom-W then Cresselia can stall out almost the entire team.
Okay I just put down the 6 mons I thought of when I thought of Sand Stall rather than basing it off an actual team I've seen on the ladder but you get the idea of what sand stall tends to look like. Venusaur works well here once Tyranitar is a little weakened. Heatran also works okay, as SDef Heatran generally doesn't carry Earth Power so it gives my SpecsTran a free switch-in, although Protect can make things difficult. If I can burn Tyranitar with Ninetales or Starmie its generally game over, otherwise I just rely on taking advantage of the fact that Tyranitar is often their best Heatran switch-in and nuke it with Earth Power.
I love facing teams like this. Cresselia sets up Trick Room on Landorus and Garchomp and sweeps. Keldeo is often choiced which means it can't really touch Cresselia in sun anyway. Venusaur is also excellent against this team.
Dugtrio Rain teams are by far the most annoying match-up, but Rain is broken as fuck so yea. I've considered using Shed Shell + Pain Split Ninetales purely for this match-up. Gameplan changes from battle to battle, but Starmie generally does okay here, and I normally just try and get up Stealth Rock asap.
Venusaur ! :D Basically just keep hazards off the field with Starmie. I just try and get Heatran in as much as possible whilst also keeping it healthy. Chansey is 2HKOd by Eruption in Sun, meaning Politoed is pretty much the only good switch-in they have and it still takes up to 30%. Get Rocks down early, preferably burn Politoed and then go to town with Heatran. Venusaur sets up on like half the team and does big damage.
Set-up Trick Room and fuck them over with Eruption 9.9. Cresselia also does very well here unless they have Volcarona, and even then I can just Trick Room and go to Heatran, who OHKOs even bulky Volcarona after a Quiver Dance. Dugtrio is annoying but I can take advantage of the fact that they are nearly forced to go to Xatu on Bronzong otherwise they lose.
So yet again I wrote another huge RMT 9.9
The main changes I am considering at the moment are Shed Shell + Pain Split Ninetales and Hidden Power [Ice] somewhere on Bronzong, but I'm pretty open to testing Pokemon changes if anyone thinks they are really necessary. I doubt I'll use this team for much longer since it just reminds me of the horrible experience that is Suspect laddering on PS!, but I'll find peace knowing that this team was as good as it could have been before I officially retire it. Thanks for reading, guys.
nobody you all suck. especially trollmonchan and bkc and funkasaurus and furai and harsha and pocket
Last edited by PenguinX; Oct 8th, 2012 at 6:04:22 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 11:51:06 AM||#2|
Join Date: Oct 2012
I really want you to try out my team down below. I clearly see your point, and as a player that has run similar team, I can't but admire your idea about cresselia trick room.
But the weakness of that party lies susceptibility to status problems. Although heatran can blast away almost everything, it can't do a thing when choice-locked, wasting TR turns. I know because I've used that sort of team.
Toxicing Cresselia and changing the weather against you is the problem there. Having nothing to counter politoed-skarf is dangerous. while anything with common earthquake can ohko your ace.
PS. Porygon2 can literally 'absorb' 2 eruptions and cripple you with twave. as well as heatrans.
Apart from that, I really like this team.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 12:05:43 PM||#3|
Nobody is safe from the power of science!
Join Date: Jun 2011
Wow, solid team you have here. The only feedback I feel like giving is to use Sleep Powder over Earthquake on Venusaur. With Earthquake you can hit hard opposing Heatrans, of course (although negative natured unboosed EQ cannot OHKO Heatran, which can be a nuisance if you fail to predict the switch in); however, that's basically the only meaningful use it has. Sleep Powder can still cripple Heatran, while it can also deal with Latias that is otherwise free to set up CMs on you (and that will hurt a lot, +1 Latias can stall out all of your Heatran's Eruptions even in Sun, and Dragon Pulse is not doing much more damage; at +2 it can basically take everything your team can throw at her and successfully sweep after Ninetales gets weakened a bit). Also, if you decide to implement this change, I suggest to slightly alter the EV spread to 232 HP / 96 SpA / 180 Spe, that lets you outspeed Scarf Latios in Sun and put it to sleep, avoiding the incoming Psyshock.
Anyway, good luck with your team, I really love it!
|Oct 7th, 2012, 12:47:12 PM||#4|
Join Date: Jul 2008
Nice team, beautiful format and I'm lovin the use of that SpecsTran.
Not a full rate, but a quick nitpick: you say you're running max speed on Starmie to at least speed tie with other base 115s, but I don't see the need. Even if you do win the speed tie against an opposing Starmie, you don't have anything to hit it super effectively with so you'll basically lose one on one every time. I suggest you run an alternative EV spread of 252 HP/ 40 SpA/ 216 Spe. 216 speed lets you outrun all +natured base 110s, most notably Gengar, who you can outrun and OHKO with Psyshock. Azelf is pretty uncommon anyway, and I think the rest of your team can handle it with ease, especially under Trick Room.
Anyway, hope I helped!
|Oct 7th, 2012, 2:54:04 PM||#5|
Join Date: Sep 2010
I battled you a few times on the ladder and I don't think I won a single game, so that's really a great team.
Only thing you may want to test is Toxic on Ninetales, mainly against Latias, because the HP Fire or Sub version can really give you a lot of trouble.
There is no excuse for who you are
|Oct 7th, 2012, 3:21:39 PM||#6|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Great team, I played you a lot on the ladder, and that TR Cresselia really caught me off guard. One thing you really need to do is add in another 4 EVs for ninetales so that you outspeed Jolly Breloom. You need to be able to force it to go for mach punch because otherwise they may get risky and go for spore or low sweep (hoping to outspeed) to take out your ninetales.
Additionally, I think HP Ice would be pretty useful on bronzong over toxic. You have Starmie, Venusaur, and ninetales for bulky waters so HP Ice could help you against Chomp more (if he comes back).
My youtube channel [Pokemon Narrations, Let's Plays]
VM me for OU/UU rates.
wish i could change my username to chimpact :[
|Oct 8th, 2012, 5:47:07 PM||#7|
slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ
Join Date: May 2009
Thanks for the rates guys!
|Oct 8th, 2012, 6:10:51 PM||#8|
Join Date: Sep 2011
This team is obviously successful (despite what the pre-ladder inflation peak says), so there isn't going to be much to say. Most of your weaknesses are covered up, but like you pointed out, Dugtrio rain offense is somewhat troublesome, albeit it's troublesome for many teams. However, you can definitely try tab's suggestion of Magma Storm over Flamethrower on Heatran. Any Dugtrio that tries to switch into Heatran and live with its Focus Sash now only has a 25% chance of winning, and this is giant in games against Dugtrio rain teams. While you lose a lot of reliability, it helps a lot. I think you're going to do this next suggestion anyways, but yeah try out Dragon Pulse instead of Hidden Power Ice on Heatran. Your calcs show how powerful Eruption is, and you can pretty much tell there's no need for a less powerful Hidden Power Ice. Dragon Pulse lets you hit Latios and Latias much harder, and they're always a hassle for sun teams.
You can always try Leftovers on Venusaur, as what you lose in power, you make up for with a better switch-in to Choice Specs Politoed. It can 2HKO your Cresselia with a bit of prior damage so that's not always going to be the safest switch, and while it doesn't exactly take Hydro Pump that well, it actually is only 3HKOed, and Ice Beam doesn't even OHKO. Of course you have Giga Drain to make up for the Life Orb recoil, so that's why this change is more of a preference thing. Cool team and good luck friend, I hope I helped.
|Oct 9th, 2012, 12:27:16 AM||#9|
Join Date: Jun 2008
I never really cared for Drought teams before, but I am VERY impressed with what you've done with some pretty underrated threats (Cress, Heatran). My only comment is that I've been testing out this team, and I found Blissey and Tyranitar to be kind of a pain to deal with directly. Moreover, I felt like there was poke who might be able to do what Bronzong does better: Mixed Cobalion. It sounds like a random Pokémon, but hear me out. First of all, he's great at setting rocks with his great speed and decent physical bulk. But moreover, most teams don't know how to deal with him. If I switch him in on T-tar, they'll bring in Gliscor, who is swiftly OHKO'd by HP Ice. If they bring in switch out their Blissey to Skarmory, Volt Switch out of there. Most importantly, it has Close Combat, which can 2HKO ChanBliss and defensive Heatran and OHKO T-tar, dealing with some important threats. Just something to think about.
Again, great team, and good luck!
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