Doubles (New Topic - EV benchmarks!)

[Pocket]

Doubles

This project is overseen by NixHex, Pocket, Pwnemon, Solace, voodoo pimp, Zach

VS

Ever since ADV, doubles has steadily gained headway into the competitive Pokemon scene. Every generation GameFreak has refined the Doubles metagame and by the fifth generation it has ripened considerably. It's a shame that the only widely supported version of this format (VGC) is one over which the players have no control! However, with the awesome Pokemon Showdown! now supporting Doubles format, we now have all the tools necessary to mold our own version of the format that made VGC so popular and help shape our own Standard Doubles metagame!

THE RULES

Moderator's Note: Do not use this thread to directly compare Smogon Doubles to VGC. You can certainly talk about VGC strategies and how they can be applied to Smogon Doubles, but do not use this thread to bicker about the differences between the two metagames.

Note that, rather than following many of the conventions which Nintendo and VGC have laid out, we will be experimenting and setting new rules and bans, so many things are slightly different. Here are some noteworthy difference from the ruleset of current VGC 2013:

1) 6 vs 6 instead of 4 vs 4
2) Pokemon default level 100 instead of level 50
3) Sleep Clause ON
4) Item Clause OFF
5) OHKO Clause ON
6) Evasion Clause ON
7) Soul Dew Clause ON
8) Moody Clause ON
9) The following moves are banned from play

• Dark Void
• Sky Drop

10) The following Pokemon are banned from play

• Mewtwo
• Lugia
• Ho-oh
• Kyogre
• Groudon
• Rayquaza
• Dialga
• Palkia
• Giratina, Giratina-O
• Arceus
• Reshiram
• Zekrom
• Kyurem-White

As you may have figured out by now, this will be a drastically different metagame from the more familiar VGC metagame. VGC knowledge will certainly be beneficial, but a handful of new additional battle pieces will certainly alter the face of Doubles.

DOUBLES BASICS

The true gem of Doubles does not lie in such minute differences in rulesets - it's the various strategies that are born and made viable by the virtue of having an additional partner and an extra opponent on the battle field simultaneously. Such battle setting results in a fast and furious play unimaginable in Singles play. If you think you have time to dilly dally with setting up hazards and some brainless volt-turn spam, think again! Since so much happens in a span of a single turn, on-the-spot decision making and intuition are tested heavily in Doubles. A thrilling new challenge unfounded in Singles!

Another major appeal of Doubles is the increased viability and deeper nuances of Pokemon moves. Here are some quick overview of such moves:

Protect - Undoubtedly the most important move in Doubles; it shields whatever moves targeted at the user and without the need to blindly switch out and let another one of your Pokemon to take a hit, too! A well-executed Protect means wasted turns for the opponent, whose attacks utterly fail to do anything while your other Pokemon can ideally take the attacker out. Protect also shield your Pokemon against Fake Out flinches, a devastating move in Double. Stalling out Tailwind or TR turns serve as another purpose for using Protect.

Feint - With Protect being such a pivotal move in Doubles, it's no wonder that a counter-move in Feint would see some use! It comes in handy when you need to connect with the target Pokemon on that turn NO MATTER WHAT.

Fake Out - This is another prevalent move in Doubles, and it's a game-breaking one, too. A super-priority flinch move renders one of the opponent's Pokemon immobile and vulnerable to assaults. Just like in Singles, Fake Out can be seen from a mile away, but the Fake Out user can actually take advantage of this, forcing the opponent to use Protect. Fake Out's greater utility in Doubles in turn increases the value of Inner Focus.

Spread Moves - These moves target multiple Pokemon - some only affect both enemies while other spread moves also catches your ally, too. Such distinctions make otherwise obscure moves in Singles, such as Heat Wave and Rock Slide, to have a specific niche in Doubles!

All spread moves's base power is reduced by 75% (so Earthquake is a 75 bp Ground type move, while Blizzard is a 90 bp Ice type move), but this power reduction is more than compensated by hitting more than one target.

Notable Spread Moves that Targets Only Enemies

• Blizzard & Icy Wind
• Rock Slide
• Heat Wave & Eruption
• Muddy Water & Water Spout
• Dark Void (banned)

Notable Spread Moves that Target Enemies and Ally alike

• Explosion & Selfdestruct
• Earthquake
• Lava Plume
• Surf
• Discharge

Wide Guard / Quick Guard - BW has added new protection moves to doubles. Unlike Protect, these Guard moves protect both the user AND the ally from spread moves and priority moves, respectively. This means that one Pokemon can guard for Earthquake or Fake Outs, thereby wasting the opponent's turn, while its partner can go on the offensive.

Helping Hand - A move designed specifically for Doubles, this move boosts the power of the user's ally by 50% for one turn, which can change a 2HKO into a OHKO. Such a difference is significant in Doubles, as knocking out the opponent effectively means cutting down on the opponent's offense by half for that turn. Thus, Helping Hand user pairs nicely with a fast Sweeper like Thundurus or Latios. Helping Hand has +5 priority, so the helper can be a bulky supporter like Cresselia.

Follow Me / Rage Powder - Another move tailored for Doubles, but this time all non-spread moves are re-directed to the user of Follow Me or Rage Powder, thereby keeping its partner untouched. Spread moves like Blizzard and Earthquake still hits both users, though. This move comes in handy when you are trying to set up with your other Pokemon. This support move has +3 priority, so this user can even redirect fast priorities barring faster Fake Outs to itself!

Tailwind / Icy Wind / Trick Room - Similarly to Singles, having the first move is almost always more advantageous than attacking second. Tailwind, Icy Wind, and Trick Room are prevalent moves to control Speed and attack first. Even though 4-5 turns go awfully quick in Singles to do anything productive, in Doubles it is usally half the game or more! Icy Wind is also an amazing utility move, a spread move that drops both enemies' Speed by one stage.

Offensive Moves Benefiting Partners - Most of the times your Pokemon will be throwing moves at the two enemy Pokemon, but moves exist that benefit the partner instead, similarly to the previously mentioned Helping Hand

• Swagger aimed at Partner holding Persim/Lum Berry
• Beat Up used at Justified partner
• Surf hitting Storm Drain/Water Absorb/Dry Skin partner
• Discharge hitting Lightningrod/Volt Absorb partner
• Gastro Acid aimed at Truant partner

WHAT'S NEXT?

Start participating in projects that we will be creating in the very near future, and discuss / share / theorymon some cool double sets, combo, or strategy with the rest of us! We would have some other additional interesting projects and challenges, too, to help make this metagame-carving process a fun one! We will keep track of those significant contributors who offer amazing feedback and increase competition of this tier through a leaderboard!

Also we have a channel on irc for the very purpose of discussing doubles and organizing challenges - go join #doubles!

Now let the birth of a potentially new official smogon metagame commence!

[Pocket]

Leaderboard

Manly Logo by Bummer!

This post will be keeping track of all noteworthy posts, activities, and accomplishments by you guys in this thread, future threads, ladder, and on #doubles

Last Updated Post: #224

Overall Score (54)

C Rank: 50-69 Points (1)

Pwnemon - 54 points

• Competitor x19
• Battle Critic x5
• Topic of the Week x1
• Teambuilder x2
• Discussion Sparker x1
• Strong IRC User x1
• Media Contributor x25

D Rank: 30-49 Points (1)

Audiosurfer - 30 points

• Competitor x2
• Battle Critic x7
• Topic of the Week x5
• Teambuilder x3
• Discussion Sparker x2
• Strong IRC User x1
• Media Contributor x10

E Rank: 10-29 Points (11)

BlankZero - 27 points

• Competitor x16
• Battle Critic x5
• Topic of the Week x1
• Teambuilder x4
• Strong IRC User x1

Level 51 - 27 points

• Competitor x10
• Battle Critic x3
• Teambuilder x1
• Discussion Sparker x2
• Strong IRC User x1
• Media Contributor x10

voodoo pimp - 24 points

• Competitor x5
• Battle Critic x14
• Teambuilder x2
• Discussion Sparker x3

Joim - 22 points

• Competitor x13
• Battle Critic x2
• Topic of the Week x4
• Discussion Sparker x2
• Strong IRC User x1

Leaderboard (cont)

---

E Rank: 10-29 Points (cont):

Arcticblast - 21 points

• Competitor x10
• Battle Critic x3
• Topic of the Week x1
• Discussion Sparker x1
• Strong IRC User x1
• Media Contributor x5

The Exeggutor - 18 points

• Competitor x11
• Battle Critic x1
• Topic of the Week x3
• Teambuilder x2
• Strong IRC User x1

Pocket - 17 points

• Competitor x12
• Media Contributor x5

Firestorm - 16 points

• Competitor x15
• Topic of the Week x1

Braverius - 15 points

• Competitor x11
• Battle Critic x1
• Topic of the Week x2
• Strong IRC User x1

Bummer - 14 points

• Media Contributor x14

nyttyn - 11 points

• Competitor x7
• Battle Critic x2
• Teambuilder x1
• Strong IRC User x1

Unranked:

StarmanXL - 9 points

• Competitor x6
• Topic of the Week x1
• Strong IRC User x2

Mr.lol - 8 points

• Competitor x1
• Battle Critic x3
• Topic of the Week x2
• Discussion Sparker x2

Carl - 7 points

• Competitor x5
• Topic of the Week x2

ThePillsburyDoughBoy - 8 points

• Competitor x2
• Battle Critic x1
• Teambuilder x3
• Discussion Sparker x1
• Strong IRC User x1

Manitary - 7 points

• Battle Critic x3
• Discussion Sparker x2
• Teambuilder x2

CHASE - 6 points

• Competitor x6

felix - 6 points

• Battle Critic x4
• Discussion Sparker x2

HabibsHotDogs - 6 points

• Battle Critic x2
• Discussion Sparker x4

Kadew - 6 points

• Media Contributor x6

Nixhex - 6 points

• Competitor x1
• Battle Critic x3
• Discussion Sparker x2

Darkmalice - 5 points

• Competitor x1
• Topic of the Week x3
• Discussion Sparker x1

gr8astard - 5 points

• Competitor x5

Ace Emerald - 4 points

• Competitor x4

AuraRayquaza - 4 points

• Competitor x0
• Battle Critic x2
• Teambuilder x1
• Discussion Sparker x1

Dusk209 - 3 points

• Competitor x1
• Battle Critic x2

Mr.E - 3 points

• Topic of the Week x3

Vinc2612 - 3 points

• Competitor x3

Blaziken48 - 2 points

• Battle Critic x2

Cease Tick - 2 points

• Teambuilder x2

ColdToken - 2 points

• Battle Critic x1
• Discussion Sparker x1

Diana - 2 points

• Competitor x1
• Teambuilder x1

DTC - 2 points

• Battle Critic x1
• Discussion Sparker x1

FLCL - 2 points

• Competitor x2

iRenzo - 2 points

• Competitor x2

Kyogre - 2 points

• Competitor x2

PenguinX - 2 points

• Competitor x1
• Strong IRC User x1

reachzero - 2 points

• Competitor x2

Solace - 2 points

• Battle Critic x1
• Teambuilder x1

typon77 - 2 points

• Battle Critic x2

youngjake93 - 2 points

• Competitor -1
• Topic of the Week x2
• Discussion Sparker x1

drcossack - 1 point

• Competitor x1

Fireburn - 1 point

• Competitor x1

Jonathanrp - 1 point

• Strong IRC User x1

NatGeo - 1 point

• Discussion Sparker x1

NidoJosh - 1 point

• Topic of the Week x1

OVERGRO - 1 point

• Discussion Sparker x1

Skore - 1 point

• Discussion Sparker x1

theJuant - 1 point

• Competitor x1

VarunR - 1 point

• Battle Critic x1

Woodchuck - 1 point

• Competitor x1

Competitors (35) - Earn points by completing Competitors and other challenges!

Competitor

---

Pwnemon - 19 pts

• 2nd Tour: R2 knock-out
• Doubles Tour: Semifinalist
• 1st IRC Conquest: Champion
• 100 rated games (x1)
• Secondary Ladder Achievement (x1)
• 2nd IRC Conquest: Eliminated

BlankZero - 16 points

• 1st Tour: Champion (1 bye)
• Secondary Ladder Achievement (x1)
• 100 rated games (x2)

Firestorm - 15 pts

• 100 rated games (x3)

Joim - 13 pts

• 2nd Tour: Finalist (1 bye)
• 100 rated games (x2)

Braverius - 11 pts

• 2nd Tour: Semifinalist (1 bye)
• 100 rated games (x2)

Pocket - 12 points

• 2nd Tour: Semifinalist
• Doubles Tour: R3 knock-out (1 bye)
• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor
• 2nd IRC Conquest: Survivor

The Exeggutor - 11 points

• 2nd Tour: Champion (2 byes)
• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor
• 100 rated games (x1)

Arcticblast - 10 points

• 1st Tour: Semifinalist (1 bye)
• Doubles Tour: Semifinalist
• 2nd IRC Conquest: Eliminated
• 100 rated games (x1)

Level 51 - 10 pts

• 100 rated games (x2)

nyttyn - 7 points

• 2nd Tour: Semifinalist
• 100 rated games (x1)

CHASE - 6 points

• Doubles Tour: Champion (1 bye)

StarmanXL - 6 points

• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor
• 100 rated games (x1)

Carl - 5 points

• 100 rated games (x1)

gr8astard - 5 points

• Doubles Tour: Finalist

voodoo pimp - 5 points

• 1st Tour: Finalist

Ace Emerald - 4 points

• 1st Tour: R2 knock-out
• 2nd Tour: Finalist (2 byes)
• Doubles Tour: R3 knock-out (1 bye)

Vinc2612 - 3 points

• Doubles Tour: Finalist (1 bye)

Audiosurfer - 2 points

• 2nd Tour: R2 knock-out
• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor
• Secondary Ladder Achievement (x1)
• 2nd IRC Conquest: Eliminated

FLCL - 2 points

• Doubles Tour: R3 knock-out

iRenzo - 2 points

• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor

Kyogre - 2 points

• Doubles Tour: R3 knock-out

reachzero - 2 points

• Doubles Tour: Semifinalist (1 bye)

ThePillsburyDoughBoy - 2 points

• Doubles Tour: R3 knock-out
• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor
• 2nd IRC Conquest: Eliminated

Darkmalice - 1 point

• 2nd Tour: R2 knock-out

Diana - 1 point

• 1st Tour: R2 knock-out

drcossack - 1 point

• 1st Tour: R3 knock-out (1 bye)

Dusk209 - 1 point

• 1st Tour: R3 knock-out (1 bye)

Fireburn - 1 point

• 2nd IRC Conquest: Survivor

Mr.lol - 1 point

• 2nd IRC Conquest: Survivor

NixHex - 1 point

• Doubles Tour: R2 knock-out

PenguinX - 1 point

• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor

TheJuant - 1 point

• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor

Woodchuck - 1 point

• 1st Tour: R3 knock-out (1 bye)

AuraRayquaza - 0 points

• 1st IRC Conquest: Survivor
• 2nd IRC Conquest: Eliminated

youngjake93 - -1 points

• 2nd IRC Conquest: Eliminated

Battle Reporter & Critics (24) - Earn points for providing logs / replays of your doubles battle or offering constructive criticisms of the battle being presented

Battles & Criticisms

---

voodoo pimp - 14 points

• voodoo pimp vs breh
• voodoo pimp vs Pocket
• voodoo pimp vs Dusk209
• breh vs voodoo pimp
• voodoo pimp vs Pwnemon
• voodoo pimp vs Mr.lol
• DTC vs voodoo pimp
• voodoo pimp vs Pocket #2
• 1st Tour Finals I
• 1st Tour Finals II
• BlankZero vs voodoo pimp
• 1st Tour Semis
• 1st Tour R3
• 1st Tour R2

Audiosurfer - 7 points

• Audiosurfer vs BlankZero
• Audiosurfer vs Level 51
• Audiosurfer vs Satoshi
• Audiosurfer vs SD J UK
• Audiosurfer vs Exeggutor
• Audiosurfer vs reachzero
• Audiosurfer vs breh

BlankZero - 5 points

• BlankZero vs iRenzo
• BlankZero vs Pwnemon
• Pwnemon vs BlankZero
• BlankZero vs I think I just
• BlankZero vs voodoo pimp

Pwnemon - 5 points

• Pwnemon vs Diana
• Pwnemon vs Ace Emerald
• Pwnemon vs DTC
• Pwnemon vs voodoo pimp
• Pwnemon vs Solace

felix - 4 points

• felix vs Pwnemon
• felix vs beowulf
• felix vs eaglesgunot
• felix vs icarus's Contrary Victini

Level 51 - 3 points

• Level 51 vs Diana
• Level 51 vs Pocket
• 1st Tour R1

Manitary - 3 points

• 1st Tour R1
• Manitary's Murkrow & Latios
• Manitary vs Pwnemon

Mr.lol - 3 points

• Mr.lol vs Pocket
• Mr.lol vs Audiosurfer
• Mr.lol vs Pwnemon

Nixhex - 3 points

• NixHex vs Level 51
• NixHex vs Pwnemon
• NixHex vs AuraRayquaza

Blaziken48 - 2 points

• Blaziken48's Beat Up + Justified
• Blaziken48 vs Dittoditto

Dusk209 - 2 points

• Dusk209 vs Pocket
• breh vs Dusk209

HabibsHotDogs - 2 points

• Joim vs HabibsHotDogs
• Habibs's Hail

Joim - 2 points

• Joim vs iRenzo #2
• Joim vs Cessa
• Joim vs Rifuso

typon77 - 2 points

• typon77 vs Pocket
• 1st Tour R2

Arcticblast - 3 points

• 1st Tour R3
• Arcticblast vs Pwnemon
• 2nd Tour R1

AuraRayquaza - 2 points

• AuraRayquaza vs NixHex
• AuraRayquaza vs Pwnemon

nyttyn - 2 points

• nyttyn vs Level 51
• 2nd Tour R2

Braverius - 1 point

• 2nd Tour R1

ColdToken - 1 point

• ColdToken vs CEO

DTC - 1 point

• DTC vs voodoo pimp

Solace - 1 point

• Solace vs Pocket

The Exeggutor - 1 point

• Exeggutor vs AOrtega

ThePillsburyDoughBoy - 1 point

• Doughboy vs DTC

VarunR - 1 point

• VarunR vs Hapless Hero

Topic of the Week (15) - Each week there will be a topic - earn points for contributing positively and substantially to said topic!

Topic of the Week

---

Audiosurfer - 5 points

• Leftovers: Quality Poster
• Trick Room: Quality Poster, 2

Joim - 4 points

• Trick Room, TR Team, Sun TR Team, TR Replays

Darkmalice - 3 points

• Leftovers: Best Poster

Mr.E - 3 points

• Trick Room: Best Poster

The Exeggutor - 3 points

• Leftovers
• Trick Room: Quality Poster

Braverius - 2 points

• Trick Room: Quality Poster

Carl - 2 points

• Leftovers: Quality Poster

Mr.lol - 2 points

• Trick Room: Quality Poster

youngjake93 - 2 points

• Leftovers
• Trick Room

Arcticblast - 1 point

• Trick Room

BlankZero - 1 point

• Leftovers

Firestorm - 1 point

• Trick Room

NidoJosh - 1 point

• Leftovers

Pwnemon - 1 point

• Leftovers

StarmanXL - 1 point

• Trick Room

Teambuilders (13) - Earn points by sharing successful teams, Pokemon sets, or offering constructive team rates

Teambuilder

---

BlankZero - 4 points

• Whimsicott & Lucario Duo
• Sunny Day Parade (RMT)
• Support Cresselia

Audiosurfer - 3 points

• Sun Team with Iron Ball Ninetales
• Rushing Through the Sand (RMT)

ThePillsburyDoughBoy - 3 points

• Aerodactyl
• Team with Sash Leads
• Darkrai &Teammates

Cease Tick - 2 points

• Capitol Thrill (RMT)

Manitary - 2 points

• Murkrow
• Darkrai

Pwnemon - 2 points

• Team WhiteWater (RMT)

The Exeggutor - 2 points

• Cresselia
• Trick Room Team

voodoo pimp - 2 points

• Tornadus advice to Diana
• CM Cresselia in Sun

AuraRayquaza - 1 point

• Team with Gravity & Trick Room

Diana - 1 point

• Team with Shaymin-S & Jirachi

Level 51 - 1 point

• Mr. Mime

nyttyn - 1 point

• Magnet Rise Excadrill

Solace - 1 point

• Team with Mew & Shaymin-S

Discussion Sparkers (20) - Think of this as a POTATO award for the top posters

Discussion Sparkers

---

HabibsHotDogs - 4 points

• Conkeldurr & Metagross
• Sigilyph and TerraCott
• Archeops
• Mantine & Archeops

voodoo pimp - 3 points

• Searing Shot
• Telepathy
• Heat Wave vs. Flare Blitz; switching

Audiosurfer - 2 points

• Dual Screens
• Rotom-W & Shaymin-Sky

felix - 2 points

• Golbat & Mew
• Response to Manitary and Soak user

Joim - 2 points

• Good Couples
• Skill Swap Cresselia & Heatran; Double Intimidate

Level 51 - 2 points

• After You
• TR + Hail

Manitary - 2 points

• Contrary Spinda and Arcanine
• Contrary Spinda and Skill Swap Victini

Mr.lol - 2 points

• Kyurem, Musharna, Bisharp, Sky Drop
• Victini

NixHex - 2 points

• Imprison to counter TR
• Entry Hazards in Doubles

Arcticblast - 1 point

• Musharna as Imprison user

Aurarayquaza - 1 point

• Darkrai and Gravity

ColdToken - 1 point

• Goodstuff Hail

Darkmalice - 1 point

• Skill Swap

DTC - 1 point

• Deoxys-A

NatGeo - 1 point

• Cresselia sets

OVERGRO - 1 point

• Contrary + Skill Swap

Pwnemon - 1 point

• Encore, Bulk, Volt-turn & Kyurem-B

Skore - 1 point

• Soak Users

ThePillsburyDoughBoy - 1 point

• Hail, HH + Priority, Goodstuffs

youngjake93 - 1 point

• Hitmontop & Gastrodon

Strong IRC Presence (13) - Awarded to those who are positively active in #doubles

IRC User

---

StarmanXL - 2 points

• Week 10
• Week 14

Audiosurfer - 1 point

• Week 7

Arcticblast - 1 point

• Week 8

BlankZero - 1 point

• Week 4

Braverius - 1 point

• Week 9

Joim - 1 point

• Week 11

Jonathanrp - 1 point

• Week 15

Level 51 - 1 point

• Week 1

nyttyn - 1 point

• Week 13

Pwnemon - 1 point

• Week 3

The Exeggutor - 1 point

• Week 5

ThePillsburyDoughBoy - 1 point

• Week 2

PenguinX - 1 point

• Week 6

Media Contributors (7) - Awarded to those who help spread the word about Smogon Doubles!

Media

---

Pwnemon - 25 points

• Smog Article #24: A Crash Course in Smogon Doubles
• Smog Article #24: Welcome to Smogon Doubles
• Smog Article #26: Doubles Spotlight: Amoonguss

Bummer - 14 points

• Doubles Logo: Smogon Doubles Logo
• Smog Art: Welcome to Smogon Doubles
• Smog Art: Uncommon Doubles Strategies
• Smog Art: Fallen Stars in the Doubles Metagame

Audiosurfer - 10 points

• Smog Article #27: Fallen Stars in the Doubles Metagame

Level 51 - 10 points

• Smog Article #25: Uncommon Doubles Strategies

Arcticblast - 5 points

• Smog Article #24: Welcome to Smogon Doubles

Pocket - 5 points

• Smog Article #24: Welcome to Smogon Doubles

Kadew - 6 points

• Smog Art: Welcome to Smogon Doubles
• Smog Art: Doubles Spotlight: Amoonguss

[NixHex]

Topic of the Week - Best Posters:

Topic 1: Leftovers by Darkmalice

A few successful RMTs:

Cresselia Too Strong by voodoo pimp
Rushing through the Sand by Audiosurfer
Wreck-it Ralph Team by Darkmalice

Doubles articles in The Smog:

Welcome to Smogon Doubles by Arcticblast, Pwnemon, and Pocket
A Crash Course in Smogon Doubles by Pwnemon
Uncommon Doubles Strategies by Level 51

Pro-tips
Compiled by Zach Dro / Braverius, submitted by you!

Pro tips part 1: Overview / Tier Analysis

---

I'm going to make a couple posts here just to outline some stuff that needs to be addressed. Talked to Pocket/Pwnemon beforehand about doing this. Turned out a bit more differently than I originally planned, but still good stuff to read and consider.

Before I start, definitions!

Format: The rules, clauses, bans, etc. of a specific type of Pokemon battles.
Metagame: The dominant, defining strategies that develop and evolve due to the format.

It's been noted and discussed for a while that metagame development is the best way to grow the playerbase and attract new players. So, in order to develop the metagame, it's important to study other doubles metagames (in this case, there's only one more developed metagame) in order to get a better understanding of where this might be headed.

I'm really into VGC, have competed for two years now and have had some good success recently. There are other players who play this tier that have the same background, and they seem to be using their same teams from VGC and doing well here. What does this imply? Two things, as I see it:

1) The metagame is not as developed, and "teams from the future!" are winning. A lot.
2) Doubles, regardless of some format tweaks, will always feature the same key concepts to doing well, such as team synergy, high-tier in-battle decisions, good team sustainability, and lots of spread moves.

The most successful players in any format or metagame are those who strive to win, which, for those players, is what they find the most fun. Others find using more uncommon teams and strategies as a better way to have fun, even though they do not win as much. VERY rarely, these uncommon teams and strategies work successfully.

People have a natural tendency to try to do their own thing, create their own identity, fight the power, rah rah. In a format and metagame that are mostly developing, it's tempting to try "different" things. However, back to my point before, to try different things and be successful at the same time, you have to understand how those different things can work based on what the current threats are. So since this is something that I've only seen briefly posted once about, I've outlined the threats that are extremely prominent in VGC and how they're impacted *for sure* by this current format (if I don't know for sure yet, I left them where they'd be in VGC. Only a couple I know for sure, and none of them are banned in VGC). It's not so that you can decipher a cute rationalization of why your team works due to the differences of formats (which is the primary reason as to why there has been some animosity towards this format); it's so that you understand what a metagame with years of development has come to, and how that metagame will mostly become this format's metagame.

When Pocket started this format, it was originally pointed out that it should be VGC's format in order to help form more of a following for double battles. However, it was decided that it would be best to simply make this a more Smogon-esque, so it was introduced as a slightly different type of format. It was a rather fun idea to open up the can of worms right away isntead, but it did cause more of a growth stunt of the metagame. Understanding how the game develops and what the set standards are (or will obviously become) is what needs to happen BEFORE you start countering the threats that you believe shouldn't be threats. The metagame should stay as is now, no need to change any of the format. However, the impact the differences between this format and VGC have on the game are more minimal than people want to believe right now, and until the threats from VGC are actually established first and grown up next to the threats from Standard Doubles, we can't figure out what

I encourage you to try the Pokemon listed under Tier 1 and Tier 2 more often than you try the other ones in Tiers 3-5. It's better to get practice with what you'll see more often as you learn, as that will help you not only learn how doubles works, but how the main threats in it work as well. Typically, as the game moves along, the vast majority of these Pokemon will pick up in usage and stay right where they are. Many will move up and down a tiny bit from time to time, and a select few will make major swings, but that will more than likely be dictated by the format's changes and tweaks.

That is why it's intriguing for a VGC player like myself to check this format out. I'm curious to see what effect testing the format will have on the competitive potential of the game, and if there is a much more ideal format out there for doubles yet to be discovered. It's a cool concept that the players can test things and see what makes the game the most fun and competitive at the same time. That's what I encourage you to embrace about this- look to taking what knowledge we already have and seeing how it can be applied and where it can go.



On the note of the threats list, you can locate it HERE in Spreadsheet form.



How this works, and what to do and what not to do (READ BEFORE REFERENCING OR PAY DEARLY):
-Each mon is listed in a tier-style. I hate tier lists. I wanted to avoid this. However, this is probably the best way to explain how often things are used and how viable they are.
-All of the mons in the first two tiers are VGC-legitimate. I think Toxicroak and Blissey were the only two that I felt are not worth a damn in Doubles compared to VGC, so I placed them a tier lower than they usually would be.
-The incorporation of the legendary Pokemon along with testing of the format's impact is what is going to change this list in the future.
-The legendary Pokemon are listed at the bottom, the ones that aren't allowed in VGC, anyways. This is solely my opinion and observation, and I will admit that unlike the VGC-legal mons which I feel are almost totally optimally ordered, these are not even close to confidently placed. This is simply from my own observation and testing, which isn't as reliable as my own observation and testing over ten times the amount of time plus dozens of other peoples' as well (referencing the VGC mons). So take the legendaries with a grain of salt, they require tons of testing still (I highly encourage testing them on all sorts of standard teams to see how they do.)
-DO NOT argue about how I have placed the mons without providing adequate evidence supporting a counter-argument (explained below). The discussion of this is not the intention of this spreadsheet, and baselessly arguing about it would be achieving the wrong purpose of this. If that starts, I'll be doing two things: sternly reminding you to read this post thoroughly, and asking a moderator to end that discussion promptly. The idea of this is to give you an idea of how the metagame is using the format implications alone with VGC's current threats, minus Trick Room threats being more prominent for the most part. This will change obviously as we see more clearly what the extra legendaries, clauses, and Pokemon limits affect, but for the time being, at least understand the former threats by either watching battle videos of them (can find these on YouTube, Nugget Bridge, or possibly even on the VGC ladder) or try them out for size.
If you DO post a critique of a Pokemon's placement here, to get me to read it, you need to show the following evidence to make sure we have some quality control:
-3 battle videos of the Pokemon / strategy doing well + winning, two of them against players rated 1750+
-5 Damage calculations against top 20 mons that back up your explanation
-At least one battle video against a 1750+ player showing a weak spot + losing
-Show a team that the Pokemon fits on
-Ask a question (or two, or three, or...) to promote healthy discussion


That's all I ask. That way, we can all see how it works, and find a way to evaluate it and use it if possible!


Now, onto the walls of fame and shame. These are both intended to have a bit of humor interjected while primarily either showing examples of good posts (WoF) or bad posts (WoS). Don't take anything personally, just observe the lesson behind each.

Finally, if you're curious behind the rationale of one of these posts on the walls of fame/shame, just ask away and I'll do my best to describe what you need to know.

Here goes!

Pro tips part 2: Hall of Fame

---

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Prediction and stopping powerful plays from being successful is the key to doing well. That is why HITMONTOP is so great. It focuses on dismantling 99% of possible opposing strategies AND creates free turns for you to wreak havoc.

This is pretty solid, it just straight up eliminates a lot of gimmicks.

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.E

much of Hitmontop's usefulness is in its Intimidate + Fake Out.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

Change the settings in the calculator to doubles

Good tip for anyone doing calcs. Spread moves are reduced to 75% of power if the opponent has two Pokemon out.

Originally Posted by Fat Huy

I'm incredibly jealous of the some of the TR setting options that are allowed in Smogon Doubles as opposed to VGC. Mew and Victini offer unique things that a lot of the VGC TR setters would love to have (mainly having both bulk and offense)

I feel exactly the same way, an added perk of trying this meta for me.

Originally Posted by Fat Audiosurfer

Also, Toxic hurts (Cresselia), but definitely doesn't ruin it, nor is there any evidence to suggest there's been a sharp rise in either. To respond to you other points, Trick Room being more common is a plus for Cress usage since it's the premier TR setter in the tier. Psychic being easy to switch into is irrelevant for the most part since it's getting used for support anyways, so it not being able to deal huge damage with Psychic isn't a bug deal. I'm not a huge fan of dual screens, but their viability hardly hurts Cress since it can be used for so much more. Saying it's outclassed as a TR setter is bs since it's the bulkiest setter in the tier, and a staple on most teams. And it's different from rage powder/follow me users since its goal is to support the team through its move pool, not tank hits, so saying it's outclassed as a HH user (as if people use dedicated HH users or something) makes no sense.
So yeah. To answer your question Skore, you just ran into teams without it. The ladder's hardly representative of decent players anyways, and it's only what teams you faced, so I doubt there's been an actual drop in its usage.. To everyone else, keep considering Cress for your teams. It's one of the best supporters in the tier, and works well on many kinds of teams.

This post gets so many good points across. Well said.

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

Cress isn't beast because of one thing. Cress is beast because it does a lot of things well and is the ultimate Glue of doubles.

Need bulk? Cress. Need HH? Cress. Need something to set TR and live? Cress.

Exactly. Cress is flexible and moderately unpredictable at times, which makes it glue-like along with its awesome base stats and utility.

Originally Posted by Fat The Exeggutor

trick room is one of the dominant play styles in any doubles metagame...

Yup.

Originally Posted by Fat Audiosurfer

Just for future reference, when making any arguments about a set, team archetype, etc. please make sure that your opponents are of some quality. Yes, we all get that bad players can make good things bad. I've seen plenty of awful teams laddering on the Doubles ladder and we get that there are plenty of inexperienced people. However, making an argument for something's viability and using those sorts of players to support your argument should be avoided.
For example Habibs, as others have already said, that TR match was a poor example of the viability of TR, and really didn't have any place in a decent discussion. If you planned on posting a replay, you should've made sure that the team wasn't too bad(obviously not every team is perfect, but a reasonable amount of quality is nice.). If you have trouble finding a team with the right amount of quality on the ladder, you can always go on #doubles and ask someone there to play you in a match, since the people there are generally better than the average ladder player. This isn't saying not to use any replays from the ladder, but just try and use your judgment as to whether the team was a decent enough one to justify whatever position you're holding.

READ THIS BEFORE EVER ARGUING SOMETHING HERE EVER. This is golden. High five @ Audiosurfer

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

Trick Room is definitely not an unviable playstyle.

Putting two TR users and 4 slow bulky attackers is not a way to win.

Rage Powder goes a long way in helping your TR user actually set it up rather then possibly get double targeted.

Brute force is the most effective TR counter, so having Rage Powder is a great way to ensure you get a speed advantage for a few turns. Just need to decide if a 4 turn speed advantage is worth the amount of damage the Rage Powder/Follow Me mon takes.

Originally Posted by Fat Darkmalice

Cress is probably the best TR user. I actually think that it's arguably the best Pokemon in the Doubles metagame.

Cress has much more support options and unpredictability than Dusclops and Pory2. Dual screens, TR, Thunder Wave, Icy Wind, HH, Skill Swap, Swagger, Safeguard, Hidden Power Fire (to act as a Scizor lure) are her great support moves; I wouldn't be surprised if I forgot something from this list. Pory2's only good support moves are TR, Icy Wind, and Thunder Wave, and the last 2 don't pair well with TR. Cress actually has better overall bulk than Dusclops.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cresselia: 374-444 (84.23 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 236-278 (83.09 - 97.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Very little difference in physical durability. Keep in mind that TTar rarely holds CB in Doubles.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 186-222 (65.49 - 78.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 282-332 (63.51 - 74.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cress has better special bulk, and the difference between their special bulk is greater than the difference between their physical bulk. This is even more important considering that special bulk is usually better than physical bulk in Doubles.

This is how you explain an idea: show that it can do something other than using your emotions. These are excellent damage calculations that show calculations on Pokemon that are relevant to the discussion. Awesome stuff here.

Originally Posted by Fat The Exeggutor

mental powder amoongus

More powerful than Sleep Orb.

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

... I'd like to see more replays (and I'm sure most people do)

The doubles strategies are endless and watching replays of doubles matches is much more exciting than singles ones.

Yup. Watching, observing, and asking questions is the best way to learn.

Originally Posted by Fat Bent1ey

Has any of the TR users in the forums tried to set up with a pokemon that also provides Feint support? I think that Feint support is quite cool to keep your opponents from wishfully trying to make your Trick Room run out by spaming Protect or blocking you with Wide Guard. Gallade is pretty cool for this because it can also play offensive when needed...

Feint is a great idea. Not a fan of putting something like this here, but this is a really constructive idea, shows some great thought process. People like to Protect to "stall out" Trick Room, so why not Feint them and make them pay? Great call. Give it a test.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Folks, I present to you: PerishTrap! This strategy was introduced to a fellow VGC player Sapphire Birch, and his impressive execution of this strategy against fledgling vgc playa yan sogeking send me an urge to try this out myself in this metagame.

This just gets placed here for the laugh. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Pocket, in your second replay you switch toed out and back in to reactivate drizzle... why didn't you just use Skill Swap on it? It would have reactivated drizzle and accomplished the Skill Swap you wanted to do.
You also Rain Danced right before you Skill Swapped for Drizzle, so you did not have infinite rain and wasted a turn =[

Good call. That's the best way to get weather back up, and good observation in that situation!

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

We've pretty much ruled Blaziken is pretty much too frail to work in doubles.

What seems to be underwhelming or surprisingly good in Doubles?

This is refreshing after seeing the Blaziboners all over before. Also, great question to guide discussion.

Originally Posted by Fat Bent1ey

You use Heracross with Guts? Moxie is one nasty ability to have in this format

True. I have a trophy to prove this ;)

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Kyutini combo is more lolzy than viable imo. To abuse it you need Choice Scarves and then Tyranitar and Gastrodon don't really care about you.

Yeah, it's a gimmick. A strong gimmick, but still...it's too reliant on certain things happening or not happening to work consistently well enough. Good call.

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

It's pretty useful to speed creep on base 70s with like 8 EVs in speed.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

I'm sorry, but this statement makes absolutely no sense. Heatran is known for being one of the best Volcarona counters in singles, and with Volcarona's inability to run Hidden Power in this metagame (dual STAB+QD+Protect is best), Heatran passes it by no problem. Volcarona partners can beat Heatran, sure, but the common Volcarona partners are common with or without it, so they can't link Volcarona with Heatran's fall.

Elbow dropping that conversation was necessary. This post did said elbow dropping.

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Heatran is bulkier, gets Flash Fire boosts, typing is better. You can make plenty of niches out of that. But yea Volcarona is *generally* better than Heatran.

Good review of those two.

Originally Posted by Fat Audiosurfer

Honestly, I think the use of the word outclasses really needs to stop in the sense that it's being used in this discussion. Volcarona in no way outclasses Heatran, since they serve very different functions on a team. Their niches don't even overlap unless you're just looking at it in terms of special attacking fire types (which isn't a great way to look at it anyways). As youngjake said, Heatran has many things that seperate it from Volcarona. Also, I think you're underestimating how valuable all the resists are, especially when you could be taking up to 2 attacks in the same turn. All the resists start to come in handy when it's necessary for you to live through an attack to be able to strike back. Flash Fire also lets Heatran act as a deterrent for people wanting to spam Heat Wave, since no one really wants to give up that boost. So yeah. It's one thing to say that you think that one pokemon tends to perform better in general in a current metagame, and then provide reasons as to why you think so, but simply saying that one pokemon outclasses another when their roles don't overlap to begin with is silly. Also, what Articblast said made sense, as even though you may have meant it to mean that Volcarona outclasses Heatran, an increase in Volcarona would spur more Heatran usage since Heatran is an amazing counter to Volcarona for the reasons listed by Articblast, so saying that Volcarona usage would cause a decrease in Heatran usage is still inaccurate.(also, when I read the statement I interpreted it the same way they did, so it wasn't like he was completely off or something.)

Another insanely good post. Read it, it can only help.

Originally Posted by Fat Crow350

Bulk is still king, stall doesn't work.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Fat Crow350

I'm see a lot of championing of lesser used pokemon. Imo trying gimmicks and subpar pokemon in a developing metagame isn't healthy for it. Do it once you have a solid meta and can actually say "just because a pokemon is VGC standard, doesn't mean its automatically amazing in doubles."

This comment needs to be featured, because this is exactly what my gripe was too. Read this if you're one of the people he's talking about, because he's dead on the mark here.

Pro tips part 3: Hall of Shame

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Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

I don't enjoy standard teams and prefer trolly/different teams.

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

My team isn't even good but is more about trolling

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

I recently lost to a gimmick assist + fly + bounce + dive + shadow force which shows just how many strategies there are (that can actually work, even though it was a gimmick)

It works, sure, but how often? That was my friend, by the way, who was in Skype with me at the time, and he was totally messing around with that team. He obviously understands its limitations, but wanted to see how many people he could actually beat with it. Turned out he won 61% of his battles by the end of the night, but that is 1) not a very good number if you want to call it a legitimate team, and 2) due to him playing pretty bad players while being a pretty experienced player himself. He’s been able to get top 50 on the ladder easily with a very standard, solid team, so it says a lot about how much the team was actually holding him back. He was also tired out of his mind that night and playing on autopilot, which was okay since that team seriously either instaloses or instawins at team preview. That’s not a stretch, it’s true. If anything has Priority, Fake Out + taunt or sleep, or Roar/Whirlwind/Perish Song, he INSTANTLY loses since his other Pokemon have nothing but 1 pretty bad move each.

Basically two lessons: one, gimmicks are not reliable and require good matchups rather than good playing, and two, if something is winning a few battles but in general not doing that well, or just winning a couple in a row and making you feel good, you can’t prop it up. Make it a goal to find and offer solid evidence so that you don’t accidentally misdirect other players (or yourself). Simply giving bad things a lot of pumping up and asserting that you know what you’re doing at the same time will understandably mislead newer players.

If you have fun using gimmicks, go for it, use them. But please, do not come back and state that they’re “viable” and “very good” in the thread because they won a battle against a certain team archetype. It needs to do well against the vast majority of teams to be good. Having fun and using them for fun is one thing, stating that they’re able to be viable and used consistently, however, is incorrect, and extremely misleading to boot.

Finally, if you want to post how your team works, you should know what it does and be able to explain this to other players by general rationale backed by good damage calculations and good battle examples. For example on how to show your team is legitimate, check this RMT by Darkmalice.



Just some other instances I saw of this type of thing happening...
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Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

I think stall will be more viable in doubles than in singles because setup moves are so rare.. so carry a way to deal with Volca and chances are your stall will be difficult to break

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

Personally I found stall a highly viable strategy in doubles as boosting is not as viable and resistances and bulk are probably more important in doubles than singles as you see a lot less outrages and such.

(Stall is not at all viable in doubles, never has been, and nothing in the new format changes implies that it will ever be. Two mons attacking rather than one is the biggest problem. Setup moves mean nothing, double damage for three turns is better than a setup move and two turns of attacking. You also need tons of evidence to support this train of thought, much less assert it.)

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

Breloom's typing is simply fantastic

I Highly Recommend toxic heal as the status immunity is priceless and the recovery allows you to deal better with occasional ice beams, flamethrowers and sludge bombs.

Breloom is particularly good at walling sun teams in general

For now, I haven't put too much effort into ev'ing it

(Its typing is often considered its bane because of fire, flying, psychic, and ice weakness, fire and ice being extremely common. It has fire weakness, so how can you say it walls SUN TEAMS? Ice Beams and Flamethrowers/Fire Blasts/Heat Waves are more than “occasional”, and I’ve never seen a Sludge Bomb from a team that actually threatened me yet in over 250 battles. None of those moves are occasional. Technician allows Breloom to actually do damage and use its better stat and typing layout, its attack. Its defenses are far too poor to have it bulky, SQUIRTLE has higher base special defense...without eviolite, and also has less type weaknesses. Finally, be sure you identify exactly what you are trying to wall, and do damage calculations and show them to help people understand if it actually works. Also be honest and point out calcs that DON’T help its cause as well, since people need to know both pros and cons to succeed with a more specialized Pokemon such as the one you’re advertising.)

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

I've seen better players use substitute to basically evade trick room turns..

pick a fast sweeper: Kingdra

apply 2 attacks: Draco Meteor/pulse + Muddy Water
apply protect + sub

(That’s my Kingdra. And Swift Swim in Trick Room makes Substitute totally useless. I never brought Kingdra to beat TR.)

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

Cress will most probably have:
1. A psychic STAB, typically psychic
2. Screen(s)

(It almost always has Psyshock, not Psychic, and very rarely has screens. Only seen two Cresselias with even one screen in this tier since beginning.)

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

-Blaziken is actually really good in doubles! ever tried stalling with substitute and protect? it's incredibly hilarious stalling with him as he is a rather common target after protecting and sub protects you against everything but double targeting (but your ally can be dangerous too).

-Breloom I have personally found working best as a wall.

-Volcarona is quite literally "master race" in this tier.. countering her requires some not-so-standard strategies and she is probably the reason why no one really cares much for Heatran anymore. She is also probably the easiest set up sweeper to support considering a input/output ratio, you're getting about twice the return ratio with a Volcarona then the next best set up sweepers (Absorb bulb Ludicolo w/ fake out for example)

Underwhelming:
-Skymin (its really the fact that it has single target moves...)
-Latios
-Heatran
-Cresselia (yes it's not a typo!)
-Terrakion (its good, just not as good as I thought with intimidate everywhere)

Surprisingly good:
-Metagross (Holy sheet this goes from zero to hero)
-Tornadus/Archeops (Dem acrobatics are amazing)
-Tyranitar (one of the best lures)
-Politoed
-Mantine (I think I oversell this)
-Sableye
-Dusclops (I'd argue mental herb dusclops > eviolite)
-Infernape
-Shuckle!! (Really, try it in TR with one of the splits!)
-Kyurem-B & Victini (they're both good individually but I'd argue borderline ubers together -.-, Kyu-B is one of the best sub users with fake out support)

(Observations are fine and often fun to read, but make sure you clearly state that they’re observations instead of asserting things based on a few weeks’ worth of play...)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Sorry, I'm just not seeing Cresselia being all that great..

(Then you haven’t ever faced an even half-decent player using one...I’ll show you one if you want.)

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Another was vs Level 51 who used a faggot Skill Swap-spamming team and ended up stealing my Shadow Tag and perish trapping me instead D:<

SHAAAAME

(Sidenote: don’t call people names, especially potentially offensive ones, openly. I know you’re totally messing around because you’re friends, but other people might just think it’s okay anytime...sadly :l)

Actually I saw this too when running Perish Trap...and lost to it... so I advocate myself for the Wall of Shame. I also called the person a scrub. Twice. :l

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

I've found Lilligant to be a star player in and out of sunlight. It can run a fast bulky set with Leaf Storm and OHKO TTar and Politoed.

It needs at least 168 Special Attack with Modest Nature and Grass Gem to OHKO a standard Tyranitar in Sand. That means it can’t outspeed neutral stat 120s (base 100s) or can’t survive important hits, such as Specs Politoed Ice Beam. It’s a pretty awful mon, honestly, and is outclassed by Serperior, Tangrowth, and a lot of other mono Grass types. It wasn’t even used more than 1% of the time in VGC 2011 when it was one of the only Grass-Type Pokemon available...:l

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Eruptiontran is a boss

Yes, Shuckle is borderline broken lol. Guard Split, Power Split, Power Trick, Acupressure are all AMAZING in doubles.

Broken as in cannot work properly ever? That makes sense. I thought that’s what you meant until the second part where you made hilariously Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-tested, Amoonguss/Togekiss/Taunt-disapproved statements. Also, evidence for this please.

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

the enemy is likely to try and just flat out kill the frog rather then worry about it staying around to cause mayhem since Toed's power is something to be feared.

Politoed has awful base attack, a movepool of pretty poor moves, and is never the thing attacking inside of Rain that is the real offensive threat. I’ve noticed people piling my Politoed as my Kingdra rips right through their team and wonder what the heck they did that for. I’ve been running bulky support (Icy Wind / Helping Hand) Politoed rather than flat out attacking...and have reached the top of the ladder with this Politoed and stayed there for over 3 weeks. Even the offensive Politoeds are not scary, since they rarely outspeed and OHKO a well-EV’d mon that’s actually threatening. The ONLY reason toed is used is because of Drizzle. If it did not have Drizzle, it would be utterly useless, even if Rain was in play.





Also, things that are shameful that belong here:
-Pressing the Toxic button
-Hi Health Loss Kick
-Eeveelution teams
-Gimmicks that instalose to common Pokemon
-Double Protecting turn 1
-Protecting when you’re inevitably going to lose
-Fake Out + Protect
-Rage Powder + Protect, simply when you thought it couldn’t get worse
-Monotype teams





So, just a quick recap of things that can be improved
~ Don’t mislead people. This sort of goes with backing up your claims, but don’t overhype something that isn’t winning the VAST majority of the time (75%+ as a benchmark). Make sure if you’re just posting thoughts you clearly state that it’s just a work in progress, but an interesting idea, rather than asserting it’s legendary and on a killing spree.

~ Back up your claims. I typically like to see, like I said in the first post, 3 solid wins and 5 solid damage calcs. Give me a reason to use it, and something to watch out for as well (add another 2-3 damage calcs and another battle replay or two to prove your case) so I know whether or not it will fit on my team. This is really necessary when challenging the norm when claiming something. It also can catch a flaw before you post it to the world and look silly.

~ Try it before you hate it. And show that you tried it, if possible. Playing 1-2 months is not enough time to know everything, and rightfully so.

~ On that note, never be afraid to learn. Not even the 8 year veterans are done learning. There is always something you can take away from each battle, and never be afraid to accept a loss or accept defeat when it happens. Learn from it and bounce back.

~ Gimmicks rely on matchups. Even though that sounds good at first, it’s really not. Almost every single gimmick, if not every single one, either wins or loses or comes close to doing so in team preview. If you’re using it to have fun, that is fine, enjoy yourself! However, if you’re doing so, please do not suddenly change from fun-loving gimmick user to veteran doubles guru and post that the gimmick is amazing because it won a few excellent matchups. Also, since gimmicks are typically all-or-nothing teams, they don’t encourage good play, and battling against them is a drag since the result is often determined way before the end of the battle.

~ Things are still yet to be discovered. Not all discoveries will turn out to be gimmicks. Some may be viable strategies or sets.There are a lot of things we have to learn yet about how this format changes the doubles metagame that we already know of. Most of the things being posted on this wall of shame are ideas we mostly look back at a few months later and realize how far we’ve come and chuckle a little, like Firestorm said: “Reading some of your posts where you discover things for the first time in particular bring a bit of a smile to my face because I can remember back when we discovered those things for the first time as well and how excited we were!” We need to first understand what is currently working so that the development of the metagame is less painful. So touch up on your history! Use resources that more experienced doubles players are giving, such as players like Darkmalice, Firestorm, Makiri, Audiosurfer, and myself have listed in the forums (such as the spreadsheet linked above!).



From transitioning from one game to the other, I have seen very minimal difference so far, in my opinion mostly because players are not yet settled into doubles, much less this format. I do believe that the mechanics of this format will influence the metagame down the road and encourage really developmental testing. We just have to get to that point first, and repeating the same general mistakes that we’ve already made years ago isn’t necessary. So first things first: understand what is already known. Make that your goal. After that’s achieved, we’ll naturally make the movement to exploration.

Compendium of Smogon Doubles Replays (as of 1/17/13)
12/24/12
Solace vs. Pocket - Mew is viable?

12/25/12
Dusk209 vs. Pocket - Gravity + Hypnosis
Dusk209 vs. breh - Dunsparce wrecks... with a ton of support.

12/26/12
NixHex vs. Pocket - Just for fun

12/28/12
voodoo pimp vs. breh - Hitmontop is good in this format!
voodoo pimp vs. Pocket
voodoo pimp vs. Dusk209
voodoo pimp vs. breh - Wobbuffet is effective

12/29/12
NixHex vs. Level 51 - Froslass kills a Heatran
breh vs. Pocket - Sky Drop was once allowed. Deo-A, Drakrai, and Shaymin in for some fun.
Pocket vs. Level 51 - TR Hail

12/30/12
Diana vs. Level 51 - More hail

12/31/12
Audiosurfer vs. breh - Beware of Heatran

1/1/13
Mr.lol vs. Audiosurfer - Whimsicott forcing Pokemon to use useless moves with Prankster Encore.

1/3/13
voodoo pimp vs. DTC
voodoo pimp vs. Pocket - Sun vs. Rain. Iron Ball Ninetales!

1/4/13
DTC uses Deo-A
BlankZero vs. voodoo pimp

1/5/13
Pocket vs. BlankZero - rain vs. sand
NixHex vs. BlankZero - Stealth Rock may be useful but doesn't shine here
Pocket vs. BlankZero - Stealth Rock works here!

1/6/13
typon77 vs. Pocket - a TON of perma-weather
Pocket vs. Poplop - Trick Room, Hail, etc.
BlankZero vs. Pwnemon - rain vs. sand
Pwnemon vs. Solace

1/8/13
NixHex vs. Pwnemon - Double sand vs. rain; Outrage is ass
Pwnemon vs. reachzero - Blissey, Volt Switch, etc.
Pwnemon vs. hexasexual - Heal Pulse Blissey

1/9/13
BlankZero vs. Pwnemon - sun vs. rain
" vs. "
Audiosurfer vs. Typon77 - Rotom-W checks many things
Audiosurfer vs. reachzero

1/10/13
Aura Rayquaza vs. NixHex - Gravity + Trick Room
Exeggutor - ladder match with Trick Room VGC team

1/11/13
Pwnemon vs. #1 - Mobility wins the game, weather wars!
felix 1
felix 2
felix 3

1/12/13
VarunR - sun vs. rain
nyttyn vs. Level 51 - Sand vs. Trick Room and.... Magnet Rise Excadrill?
Pwnemon vs. DTC - Stealth Rock really IS useful

Arcticblast's Tournament
Audiosurfer vs. Satoshi - Tyranitar works Cresselia
Audiosurfer vs. SD J UK - Dual Screen Metagross DGAF about Icy Wind... but Excadrill kills it right on time
Audiosurfer vs. Exeggutor (Finals) - 20 turns, Multiple Trick Rooms, Lots of Helping Hand from ChestoRest Cresselia. Amazing match overall.

iRenzo vs. BlankZero - Paralysis EVERYWHERE and a Ferrothorn that just does not die.

1/13/13
Pwnemon vs. Ace Emerald - Archeops lasts the entire match and kills nearly everything!
Audiosurfer vs. Level 51
DTC vs. ThePillsburyDoughboy - Serene Grace not working...
DTC vs. ThePillsburyDoughboy (pt 2)
ThePillsburyDoughboy vs. Level 51
Audiosurfer vs. BlankZero - Sand vs. Sun. Sun sweepers are frail :-/

1/14/13
Snowflakes vs. BlankZero - Ferrothorn is a tank
Cold Token vs. CEO
voodoo pimp vs. Pwnemon - Sunny Day / TR Dusclops + a bit of hax controls the match
Arcticblast vs. ccst - 28 turn stall match with a beastly Calm Mind Cresselia

1/15/13
Blaziken48 vs. boba fett - Blaziken48 makes a forum account to show off a brutal Helping Hand / +5 Terrakion wreck in 4 turns.
Blaziken48 vs. Dittoditto - Simple Beam + Quiver Dance

1/16/13
NixHex vs. Aurarayquaza - Gravity + Trick Room, burned Pokemon everywhere, Chople Excadrill.

[waffles101]

Looks to be awesome!

[Solace*]

Pocket and I played a match, it was lots of fun!

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/do...tomgame6635191

Mew is definitely a tough competitor since it's hard to kill and has a great moveset.

I think my team still has a few things to be tweaked, since I'm not really sure I'm liking the whole rain component of it at all. If anyone wants to try it out as a base team, here's the importable:

...

---

Shaymin-Sky @ Occa Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 160 Spd / 252 SAtk / 92 SDef / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Seed Flare
- Protect

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 0 Spd
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Kingdra @ Haban Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Muddy Water
- Protect

Mew @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Light Screen
- Softboiled
- Psychic
- Helping Hand

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Yache Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard
- Fake Out

[Level 51]

Pocket told me to post about this... so here I am!

I've been using quite a novel strategy in VGC lately, which I've also brought into Smogon Doubles.

This team is based around the move After You:

• After You
  — The target makes its move right after the user.

In addition to powerful spread attacks such as Eruption, Water Spout and Earthquake (whose users are, ordinarily, slower), After You can be a great boon, allowing Specs Heatran to Erupt with the 115 Base Speed of a Cinccino.

However, this strategy is extraordinarily weak to Taunt and Fake Out, as either move will basically have the effect of shutting down the whole side for one turn. This is further exacerbated by the Drizzle+Swift Swim legality, in addition to Excadrill being present in VGC/Doubles, causing the After You user, however fast, to be outsped. I personally counter this by using Tailwind and Klutz+Trick+Lagging Tail, but otherwise, it's fairly easy for opponents who I beat easily in previous games to defeat me in rematches.

[Pocket]

Interesting strategy, Level 51 - honestly, I totally forgot about After You until you mentioned it in #doubles (shame that you couldn't execute your strategy against me ;P)

But yea, Solace's Mew was a bitch against me - just didn't fucking die! I should've Hydro Pumped on turn 10 (the turn Mew used Psychic on Hitmonlee) so I could take it out the next turn, but for some reason that did not occur to me then. Also I totally forgot that my Heracross had Helping Hand, which would have helped me remove Skymin and thus a perfectly alive Kingdra that could've finished off that dastardly Landorus-T >:0 I'm still very rusty in doubles, lol ;/

Also that match highlighted the douchiness of Intimidate, which lowers the attack of BOTH enemies by one stage. Intimidate is such a solid ability in doubles, and so it's no surprise that Landorus-T has actually been proven more influential than the other therian formes in this playstyle (at least from what I've seen). Definitely be prepared for Landorus-T in doubles!

We don't have a ladder up, but if you guys want to play matches, join #doubles and ask any of us for friendly games ;)

[Dusk209]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/do...tomgame6699336
Me vs Pocket in a very gg. In this battle I used a combination of gravity (which is super underrated) and hypnosis. I also used prankster t-wave to help me flinch stuff in the face with shaymin and rachi.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/do...tomgame6702020
Me vs breh in another gg. I tried using a combination of tailwind, prankster + para, serene grace, and flinching moves in a very gimmicky team. Dunsparce is truly a boss.

Eagerly awaiting a ladder to pop up. This meta is epic.

[Pocket]

Man I have to give it to you guys - major props for already finding some innovative ways to play with the new additions. Hypnosis Darkrai paired with Gravity Mew; flinch-whoring with Shaymin-S and Jirachi x0x; Rather than para-flinch strategy, Icy Wind or Tailwind support may be more practical ways of making the 60% flinch tactic work, since it affects both opponents and wont be screwed by Lum Berry.

Mew seems to find itself a utility niche in doubles, but so far it seems more like a poor man's Cresselia, since the latter can provide dual screens, Gravity support, Helping Hand support, and more.

Here's another "just-for-fun" match between Nixhex and me - guys don't use Dunsparce, it sucks -_-;; I also have no clue what that Ludicolo accomplishes ;x

Pocket vs NixHex

[Joel]

Have had nothing to do with this yet, but CHEERS!!!!!!

Great to see something that isn't singles battles on Smogon, and being viable.

I will be a part of this very soon!!! ^_^

(now if we could just get some triples going on around here)

[Level 51]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

flinch-whoring with Shaymin-S and Jirachi x0x

Dunsparce is another GREAT way to use After You. Flinch-whore da best :>

[Pocket]

Another new toy that I forgot to mention in the OP - GEMS! Unlike Singles, where matches drag out, doubles matches only last for a handful of turns - thus you want every attack count! Gems are a nice way to offer an immediate 50% boost in a particular move without being choice-locked or in need of Helping Hand from a teammate. This extra power can obviously help seal KOs, which in doubles mean halving opponent's offense if you move first and potentially saving your teammate from dying to the opponent's attack. People who have played me can confirm my love for blasting their mon with a Water Gem-boosted Hydro Pump from Politoed!

However, it can be totally wasted on a Pokemon that would die without Gem boost or on a switch-in that resists the Gem-powered move, which can be aggravating for me ;[

Some of us on #doubles have wondered if gems would still be good in our metagame, since 6 vs 6 makes games notably longer than 4 vs 4 (a game may actually exceed 10 turns!) From the matches I have played, though, I believe they are still useful in doubles, despite facing full teams.

Oh and here's a fun game I played today against Level-51 - props to him for experimenting with many of the new additions (Deoxys-S and Darkrai) to the doubles metagame!

Pocket vs Level 51

At turn 4, no idea why I didn't aim Manectric's Thunder at Murkrow and Kingdra's attack at Deoxys-S instead of vice versa, but w/e. Kingdra is a b0ss

[voodoo pimp]

Me vs breh, proving that I suck at predicting but can somehow win anyway.

Seems that Hitmontop is just as effective as he is in VGC, so expect to see a lot of them in your battles. I haven't been too impressed with Jirachi so far, but I haven't done very many battles yet either.

Also, me vs Pocket
me vs Dusk209
breh gets his revenge, and Wobbuffet proves surprisingly useful.

[NixHex]

Me vs. Level 51
This is a team I made in PO almost a year ago and imported it when PS! got doubles (it was the first file i clicked on lol). Killing Heatran at the end was a nice twist and was pretty pivotal. If I had gotten Power Whip miss hax, the game would have been his. Sometimes it just all comes down to end-game antics.

[Pocket]

Yea bunch of battles last night / this morning ;d

Things I learned:

~ I suck at using Heatran ;-;
~ Volcarona & Weavile is a sick combo
~ Hitmontop is still boss
~ Abomasnow & Kyurem is a deadly blizzspam pair
~ Deoxys-A is annoying b/c of its ungodly 150 Spe (kill it with priority / alter Speed!)
~ Tail Glow Manaphy ;F
~ Wobbuffet is useless once the Encore glitch is fixed
~ Shaymin and Darkrai are strong additions to this metagame that have seen much use
~ Sky Drop is a move now!

Here's another game vs breh featuring Sky Drop, Deoxys-A, Darkrai, and Shaymin: breh vs Pocket

If Deo-A had Superpower, it would have wrecked my team, or at least bring down a mon or two. Disable made a huge splash in this game (moreso than SKy Drop -.-), preventing Abomasnow from using Ice Shard. I should have played safe at the very end, taking out Abomasnow first and then Disable Wobbuffet's Mirror Coat so Shaymin could kill it without fear. I didn't expect Wobba to survive a HH-boosted Seed Flare :X

EDIT: Encore glitch - Showdown! randomizes the target of Encore-locked Pokemon, when in fact the Pokemon should have freedom in choosing its target

[Level 51]

Pockit versuss Level 52
So apparently I don't suck at doubles :DDDDDD

I've been testing out a TR + Hail team - somehow it seems that Hail is one of the most common weathers in Doubles, probably because of how devastating Blizzard can be. Pairing it with Trick Room really helped :o

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

~ Abomasnow & Kyurem is a deadly blizzspam pair

Aye, this is true. Pity I never bothered to test it u_u

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

~ Tail Glow Manaphy ;F

Tail Glow Manaphy is a real boon to my Hail Team - besides providing insanely strong Blizzards, it can also take advantage of the opponent's Rain (if they use it) to keep itself going for longer.

On this team I also happen to have a Masquerain, which I've been testing for TR:

Masquerain @ Focus Sash
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Def
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Bug Buzz
- Blizzard
- Stun Spore
- Struggle Bug

The idea was to have an Intimidator which could abuse hail... let's just say it didn't work out well.
However, on (somewhat) the same topic, do you think Struggle Bug could be useful as a Special form of Intimidate? Sure it might take up a moveslot and a turn to use, but might that be justified?

[Adams]

This may sound stupid (sorry I'm new), but how can I double battle with these rules?

[NixHex]

You'll have to go get on IRC, go to the #doubles channel, and talk to people there. If any of us are down for a battle, you will challenge them on our simulator, Pokemon Showdown!

[Diana]

I tried this out yesterday and really enjoyed the metagame. Really fast-paced, as mentioned, considering games last like 8 turns.

I find Tailwind to be amazing and then some. Tornadus gets priority on it and Shaymin-S can set it up while already moving before most things. Combine that with Jirachi and you get a flinch machine.

If anyone's interested here's what I was using, it's probably not that great but I liked it.

...

---

Shaymin-Sky @ Charti Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Sucker Punch
- Close Combat

Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast

Terrakion @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Helping Hand
- Sacred Sword
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Chandelure @ Mental Herb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Protect
- Shadow Ball
- Imprison
- Trick Room

Jirachi @ Occa Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Protect
- U-turn
- ThunderPunch

Chandelure's just there to mess with Trick Roomers if I lose Tornadus or if I see something like a Follow Me or Rage Powder user.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat Level 51

However, on (somewhat) the same topic, do you think Struggle Bug could be useful as a Special form of Intimidate? Sure it might take up a moveslot and a turn to use, but might that be justified?

I've seen people use Snarl to the same effect, and it works pretty well. Only real difference is that most Struggle Bug users either suck or have 4MSS.

Originally Posted by Fat Diana

I tried this out yesterday and really enjoyed the metagame. Really fast-paced, as mentioned, considering games last like 8 turns.

I find Tailwind to be amazing and then some. Tornadus gets priority on it and Shaymin-S can set it up while already moving before most things. Combine that with Jirachi and you get a flinch machine.

If anyone's interested here's what I was using, it's probably not that great but I liked it.

...

---

Shaymin-Sky @ Charti Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Sucker Punch
- Close Combat

Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Taunt
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast

Terrakion @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Helping Hand
- Sacred Sword
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Chandelure @ Mental Herb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Protect
- Shadow Ball
- Imprison
- Trick Room

Jirachi @ Occa Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Protect
- U-turn
- ThunderPunch

Chandelure's just there to mess with Trick Roomers if I lose Tornadus or if I see something like a Follow Me or Rage Powder user.

I see I'm not the only one to discover Skymin+Hitmontop :P
Have you considered using a physical Tornadus instead, so you don't have to rely on 70% accurate moves?

[Diana]

Originally Posted by Fat voodoo pimp

I see I'm not the only one to discover Skymin+Hitmontop :P
Have you considered using a physical Tornadus instead, so you don't have to rely on 70% accurate moves?

No but I like the idea for sure. I'm definitely going to try that, thanks.

[Pocket]

Thank you, Diana, for enjoying this fun metagame :)

Yea, Acrobatics > Hurricane; with Flying Gem it OHKOs Latios 93% of the time, which Hurricane fails at. You can also use Superpower > Focus Blast to dish more damage against TTar, too. Chople is common on TTar, though, so you may just want to go Protect there.

I find Yache Berry much more useful than Charti Berry on Shaymin-S, simply because Ice moves are so much more common in the forms of Ice Shard, Icy Wind, and Blizzard. Yache would help against the former two.

Also Close COmbat > Sacred Sword - the battles move fast so the defensive drops should not hinder you, while the 33% drop in power most certainly will :0. Helping Hand seems to me like an odd choice on an offensive mon like Terrakion, who would be better off dishing heavy hits of its own rather than supporting its team members. You should experiment with other moves instead, such as Quick Guard to protect Terrakion AND your partner from priority (good against Fake Out / Mach Punch / Ice Shard), Stone Edge to specifically nail one target hard / not be trolled by Wide Guard, or Earthquake, since you have two Flying-types that can pair well with Terrakion ;d

Also Chandelure without Heat Wave / Fire Blast??? please change that :0

[voodoo pimp]

Oh yeah, I completely missed Chandelure. That set is done pretty much entirely better by Cofagrigus, so try that instead if you find it useful enough to keep.

[Adams]

This is insanely fun!

[Mr.lol]

I decided to experiment a bit with the Kyurems. Blizzard spamming is strong, but what I liked most about them was that they could actually throw out a few Icy Winds (or in Kyurem without form case, Glaciate). That and its nice to resist Water-type moves from all the Politoed's I'm seeing X_X.

Speaking of Politoed, Musharna is amazing on rain. It stops Trick Room teams with Imprison and can idly stand by and boost Surf's power to huge levels (95*1.5*1.5*.75). It doesn't mind increasing the time it takes for it to die either with access to both screens. Its no Cresselia when it comes to bulk but still...

All the flinching going on is maddening X_X. I invested a slot in Bisharp (Inner Focus but I guess Defiant works too) to help take out these pesky Shaymin-S and have yet to be dissapointed.

Sky Drop is a hilarious way to annoy Trick Room teams, preventing Trick Room from going up turn 1 seems to rain on their parade (well one time they used an Amoongus but Fake Out + Sky Drop = :().

7) Sky Drop + Gravity Combo Ban

Just a random question but what happens if a person on a team uses Gravity when their partner is getting hit by Sky Drop ?_? Does this go into the ban or does the team using Gravity suffer.