The Next Best Thing

Novaray · Jan 21st, 2013, 7:23:49 PM

The Next Best Thing...
credit to fatty for most of the op and the idea
approved by Birkal and Harsha

What is this?:

I for one, along with many others I'm sure, feel as though there is some untapped power within the OU environment. There is substantial evidence for this idea in the form of one commonality for most tiers, OU included: there always seems to be one or more new-fangled, hyped up sets that weren't originally main-stay or seen as "viable" by the community, but somehow has taken the metagame by storm. This can be seen in DPP OU (with Special Lucario transitioning to SD Lucario, Heatran eventually running items other than Choice Scarf, and the influx of ChestoRest Kingdra) in ADV (with the vaunted TyraniBoah now becoming almost an urban myth in comparison to Special and DD Tyranitar, and the increasing popularity of SupeRachi) and in BW OU (with the advent of SubSalac Terrakion, SubDisable Gengar, and ChestoRest Volcarona). Yes, some of these sets may have been found early on with respect to the creation of the tier or fairly recently, the point is, though, that there seems to be an endless supply of effective and potent sets out there yet to be discovered, especially factoring in metagame swings and the possible tier shifts. The purpose of this project will be to systematically subject each and every OU Pokemon to a collective body of research in an attempt to uncover these "hidden gems", so to speak, and hopefully spark some creativity throughout the OU community.

The Process:

Each week, I will choose a different OU Pokemon, sometimes chosen by random, sometimes chosen by curiousity, of which participants will try to personally create a new set for that is not already on-site or in the process of being put on-site. Participants will be given 3 days to create their set, with discussion about the particular sets being promoted throughout, and on the 4th and 5th day, a vote will be held to choose which user's set represented the most creative and simultaneously competitively viable set to utilize in the current OU metagame. Once the votes are tallied and a winner is crowned, the set will be archived in the OP and the process will start all over again for the next Pokemon specimen.

What are we looking for?:

Specifically, I want to stress the importance of the balance between creativity and viability when picking a set to post for the Pokemon in question. There's a very fine line between a "creative" set and a "gimmick", and this project is not meant to produce gimmicks, rather emphasize the ability to think outside the box when using a specific Pokemon in order to maximize it's potential. Having said that, I would also like to deviate from simple one move / item changes. For example, using Steel Gem over Choice Band on Scizor does nothing to show any untapped potential Scizor has because we already have a basic understanding of what Scizor does. The same goes for using Draco Meteor over Fire Blast on DD Salamence, it doesn't yield productive discussion or results for the project. I am looking for sets that test what we think we know about checks or counters, so-called standards, and what it means to be viable. Maybe a particular option for a Pokemon looks inferior at first glance for that particular Pokemon, but dig deeper and try and find what it might mean in the big picture, for the entire team.

The next test subject is...

Vaporeon!

Some things to consider:

What is thought to "counter" this pokemon?
Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters?
What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside?
What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame?
What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against?
How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates?

__________________________________

Novaray · Jan 21st, 2013, 7:24:38 PM

Archived Sets

(set name - creator)

Gliscor - Superpowerdude

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Mew - Joeyboy

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Infernape - Joeyboy

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Espeon - youngjake93

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Celebi - Neliel

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Jirachi - Shurtugal

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Hydreigon - Cherub Agent

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Tyranitar - DarkBlazeR

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Tyranitar @ Focus Sash
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 120 Atk / 136 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam

This set is a great change of pace from the usual Tyranitar sets. Although it requires a bit of support to work to its full potential, such as Rapid Spin support to keep hazards away, and good prediction to get in safely, when played correctly this set will usually net you 2-3 KOs per match. The reason it works so effectively is because of the surprise value - few people expect Tyranitar to run max Speed, and even fewer expect Tyranitar to run a mixed set in tandem with max Speed.

With Crunch you can bluff a choice item initially, only to KO the opponent with the appropriate move who think you're locked in. Some of Tyranitar's usual checks, e.g. Scizor, Breloom, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, Tangrowth etc will be swiftly dealt with by Flamethrower/Ice Beam.

Focus Sash is an amazing item on this Tyranitar, as it enables it to get unexpected KOs on things that could formerly beat it. Most notable is Terrakion, whom attempts to revenge kill with Close Combat. Tyranitar's sash activates, and KOs Terrakion in the same turn with Superpower. You no longer have to hope that Gengar's Focus Blast will miss, as you will come out on top 100% of the time with Focus Sash still functional. Dragons trying to break through you will come to an icy end. The list goes on.

This Tyranitar may be lacking in terms of overall power, but its ability to turn the tide of the game in your favour makes it worth using. Obviously it isn't as adept at winning the weather war as the standard, bulkier Tyranitar sets, so I'd recommend you either use it in tandem with Hippowdon, or use it on an offensive team that doesn't really rely on weather but would like some way of checking other weather teams. Specifically, it tends to pair well with certain sweepers that are checked by mons that this Tyranitar lures in - Salamence/Lucario/SD Landorus-T to name a few, though another very notable teammate for this set is OTR Reuniclus, who appreciates Tyranitar removing Scizor from play.

Metagross - Joeyboy

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Oyster · Jan 21st, 2013, 7:31:06 PM

The OP has me a bit confused. Are we only going to be looking at OU pokes, or pokes from all tiers?

Master of the Six Kings · Jan 21st, 2013, 7:37:27 PM

"For example, using Steel Gem over Choice Band on Scizor does nothing to show any untapped potential Scizor has because we already have a basic understanding of what Golem does."

Your example is really confusing haha. Anyway, one thing that might help this is separating the "next subject" part and making it its own post, and adding a list of movesets, items or moves that aren't accepted as part of the learning process.

Anyway, Skarmory is defaintely a Pokemon i'd feel counters Gliscor 100%. Immune to Toxic and EQ, and can Whirlwind all Subs/Boosts. Rock Slide/Stone Edge/Ice Fang all do nothing to it. Bronzong is similair, although it can be set-up fodder for BP sets that don't use agility...haha.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 21st, 2013, 7:46:49 PM

ChestoRest SD Gliscor maybe? Kinda the same idea as the old acrobat set except that it uses his bulk to grab more boosts and then heal it off along with status. Not sure if I should go Hyper Cutter or Poison Heal but I'll edit this post with the set later.

Then again, he already has Roost and Poison Heal as recovery so I don't see what Rest is bringing him besides Acrobat (Roost plus Flight Gem works just as well) and a one time chance to blow off burn.

I tried calcing CB but that attack stat is so pitiful it just isn't worth it.

Maybe a Tailwind + U-Turn set that works kinda like SubPass? Run it with EQ and Flight Gem Acro to have some instant threat, kinda.

Oyster · Jan 21st, 2013, 7:49:59 PM

Skarm is definitely counter #1, but building a set specifically designed to bypass Skarm seems wasteful, since it prevents Gliscor from filling other important roles and if you really want to get rid of Skarmory, you could just use Magnezone or something. I think we'd be better off trying to find a set that fills a certain niche instead.

TheWaddleDeeKing · Jan 21st, 2013, 8:02:05 PM

I quite like the idea of this thread, though for a Pokemon that is almost exclusively a wall to be the starting Pokemon seems odd for me. Walls are the counters, not something that exactly gets countered without fulfilling its role first. But I digress.

Quote:

Some things to consider:

What is thought to "counter" this pokemon?

Anyways, obviously rain teams take a shit all over Gliscor and rub it in. So, that means: Starmie, Tentacruel, Cloyster, Gastrodon, Jellicent, Gyarados, Keldeo, Vaporeon, Politoed and Rotom-W. However, it is also extremely weak to Ice, so that means any Pokemon that carries HP Ice can deal a good amount of damage (Thundurs-T, Heatran (Balloon or Scarfed), Magnezone + Magneton (Balloon or Scarfed), Keldeo, Kyurem-B (Ice Beam), Landorus, Jolteon, Starmie (Ice Beam), and Mamoswine (Ice Shard)).

Quote:

Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters?

I must say, that is quite the list of counters. Is there any real way to get around them? Hell no. He's boned unless he managed to get to +2, and even then he'll have a hard time. It's better to U-turn out into your Jolteon or something.

Quote:

What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside?

In terms of moves that he could use, Stealth Rocks and U-turn aren't used as much, and now that they are legal with Poison Heal could really see some use. However, with BW2, Landorus-T gives it a major run for its money, so really most sets are now outclassed. The only thing he's really got anymore is more speed and Poison Heal to its advantage. So, a pivot Pokemon that blocks hits is probably the best thing for this guy.

Quote:

What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame?

A defensive wall that can heal itself for double what Leftovers can. He also comes with the advantage of blocking other status's, which is always a nice thing to have. He faces major competition from Landorus-T, though.

Quote:

What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against?

As a wall, physical attackers. Well, almost, cause normally Skarmory or Landorus-T do the job better, but I digress. He can sponge hits from the likes of Terrakion at the very least, and Banded Tyranitar can't really OHKO, and will take huge amounts of damage from Earthquake at the very least.

Quote:

How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates?

With all said and done, not as much as you would really want it too. It faces too much competition from Landorus-T to merit any setup sweeping sets. It can work as a wall, but it's not exactly amazing in this regard. However, with Earthquake and decent base stats, I think I can come up with something.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
EV's: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 72 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpA) / Impish (+Def -SpA)
Trait: Poison Heal
-Earthquake
-Ice Fang/U-turn
-Fire Fang
-Roost

This set doesn't seem to deviate too much, but it aims for a more Donphan like mentality, being a bulky attacker that can still wall certain threats decently but being able to hit key ones for mass damage (Like Dragonite and Scizor). It doesn't have quite as much bulk but still has enough to shrug off certain hits. Fire Fang is used to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn for 2HKO's at worst, while Ice Fang is used for Dragonite and other Gliscors. Earthquake gets STAB and hits harder than any of the other super-effective moves. While facing competition from Donphan, at least Gliscor has reliable recovery.

That's really the only viable thing I could come up with. A wall isn't exactly easy to make a completely original set or niche for.

Manitary · Jan 21st, 2013, 8:33:48 PM

The problem is that he need to get a Swords Dance in order to kill his threats not named 0/4 Starmie, but also a Tailwaind/Agility to outspeed them (bar priority users such Mamoswine). So if the opponent switch in the counter while you get only one of the two boost you are too slow or not enough powerful to get the OHKO and you're probably forced out.
Maybe you can use something like Tailwind/U-Turn (as proposed before) but then you've only two moveslot remaining.

He can also run something like Agility/SD SubPass or similar but I don't think it could work too well.

hotcoldyay · Jan 21st, 2013, 9:13:29 PM

I was thinking this, not sure if its too effective.

Gliscor@Toxic Orb
Adamant, 120 HP/252 Atk/32 Def/104 Spe
-Agility/Tailwind
-Earthquake
-Facade/Baton Pass/U-Turn/Taunt/fire fang
-Ice Fang/Baton Pass/U-Turn/Taunt/fire fang

After one agility, you outspeed everything up to scarfed 110s with this spread. Max attack is for maximum damage done. Hp evs put a recovery number, and defense evs buffer that stat a litttle. Toxic orb could be replaced with life orb to put more damage, and there could be a change of ability, but avoiding status plus good recovery is irreplaceable.

Tailwind and agility are for speed boost. Earthquake for stab. Ice fang and facade are attacking options. Tailwind works well with u-turn, and agility with baton pass. Taunt is useful for shutting down things like skarm, who like to come in and wall it to death. Fire fang is for more coverage. Sub and protect are nice, but dont really accomplish much, except for the former, which might work with agility. Stealth rock could be used, buts i dont think its that useful here anyway. Theres probably variations to this.

This set must be crappy since i just made it up, but at least i tried :P

Almost all of gliscors sets have already been named, and since hes a wall with only decent offensive stats, its pretty difficult to come up with anything new for it.

MCBarrett · Jan 21st, 2013, 9:39:37 PM

I think tailwind isn't a very good option since it can pass agility anyway which can last for a potentially longer time.
I feel like the best way to look at a new set for Gliscor would be to utilize its support move pool which turns out to be pretty good. Here are a few moves I found interesting: Knock off, torment, Bulldoze, and sunny day, rain dance, or sandstorm.
Knock off can cripple many opposing Pokemon, including opposing Gliscor.
Torment is very annoying, as seen on heatran but it may not be as effective without being able to trap.
Bulldoze lowers speed at the cost of 40 Bp compared to earthquake.
Sunny day, rain dance and sandstorm can all provide team support.

I could see any one of these moves providing good support to gliscor's teammates.

TheWaddleDeeKing · Jan 21st, 2013, 9:50:49 PM

Knock Off I believe is mentioned in the OO part of the current Gliscor analysis. Torment is garbage unless you have really good typing. You'll only ever see it on Heatran due to its resists, and even then I never see it on Heatran. Bulldoze could certainly be interesting but even then you're not gonna hit really anything that won't KO you in return. It's annoying at best, honestly it's better to setup rocks or Toxic.

As for the weather options, they're all best left to Bronzong.

Rhys DeAnno · Jan 21st, 2013, 10:06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TheWaddleDeeKing

As for the weather options, they're all best left to Bronzong.

Maybe Sunny Day, to help against rain teams? It's awkward to get the free turn against them to set it up though, and Gliscor won't outrun a lot of the usual Double-STAB threats (ScarfToed, ScarfRotom-W, Keldeo).

Back in DPP I sometimes ran a pure reliable Agility Passer, With Yache and Agility/Taunt/Sub/BP, but that's prety fringe. The idea was to outrun everything after Agility, and to block problems by Taunting or Subbing (and maybe pass a sub too).

Superpowerdude · Jan 21st, 2013, 10:14:11 PM

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
EV's: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 72 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpA) /
Trait: Poison Heal
-Earthquake
-U-turn
-Toxic
-Taunt

I can see this Gliscor set working very well on sand teams and volt turn teams. The combination of Taunt+U-turn is very great to grab momentum as you can do something like make Skarmory useless, then switch into a Pokemon that can take it on like Magnezone. Taunts use isn't only to stop opponents setting up hazards, but blocking status attempts and stat booster can definitely help your sweepers setting up and all you have to do once you have Taunted your opponent it U-turn to the most apporopraite Pokemon. So basically this set annoys the opponent with either Toxic or Taunt, then U-turns out.

As I mentioned earlier this Pokemon works well with sand and volt turn. Scizor and Magnezone are great partners because they can continue the volt turn chain, and they can trap Gengar and Skarmory two Pokemon that wall this set.

SubakSupreme · Jan 21st, 2013, 10:37:23 PM

In terms of setting up weather, Gliscor's advantages over Bronzong and Landorus-Tare its access to U-Turn and Taunt. A set looking something like this

Gliscor @ Toxic orb
252 hp/ 40 def/ 216 spe
Nature:Impish
Trait: Posion Heal
- Sunny Day
-U-turn
-Earthquake
-Taunt/toxic

This set is meant to support sun teams by setting up sun in front of common threats as well as acting as a good pivot. Gliscor can set up sun on things Ninetales would never switch into such as Terrakion or Tyranitar this takes pressure off of Nintales to keep sun up and still walls key sand threats. U-Turn is is used to set up Set up sun and flee witch eases prediction and allows Gliscor to bring in a chlorophyll sweeper or appropriate check/counter to the threat. Earthquake is stab which does sold damage to Tyranitar and friends as well as being able to OHKO Heatran. In the last slot Taunt can stop slower hazard setters and set sweepers from setting up while toxic can be used to weaken bulky waters and dragons. 216 speed Evs allows Gliscor to outrun adamant Lucario as well as timid Heatran. The standard spread of 252 hp/ 176/ 72 spe can be used but then offensive non scarf Rotom-W. can out speed and kill.

youngjake93 · Jan 21st, 2013, 10:47:25 PM

Well.. I think Gliscor's subpass set is pretty threatening if you pass it to something with low HP, but high defenses(think Shuckle and evioliters). Cloyster makes a great receiver by resisting Ice and Water while also having a good reason to hide behind a sub. It's a shame about that sDef stat. You could also slap it on a rain team because there are a lot of water types that have those same resists. They just may not appreciate a substitute as much as Cloyster.
Idk, it's kind of hard to not delve into gimmicks as most good sets are already covered.
Sort of crappy ideas floating through my brain: Power Trick passing? Thief+Fling?
Weather starting and Knock off have already been mentioned
Poison Jab could be used on a stalling set to save moveslots as it can poison+attack.

One reeeeally interesting idea is STRUGGLE BUG. Just think of the thousands of special attackers that switch into Gliscor. Starmie and Celebi even get hit for a dent of damage. On a hazard stacking set, Gliscor could use Struggle Bug+Stealth Rock. I like stat debuffs over phazing a lot of times on hazard stacking teams b/c you don't lose momentum when they decide to hard switch on their own(you actually gain it).

HabibsHotDogs · Jan 21st, 2013, 11:39:37 PM

This is my favourite Gliscor set:

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Poison Heal
252 Hp / 216+ Spd / 40 Def
-Earthquake / Ice Fang
-Taunt
-Stealth Rock
-U-Turn / Ice Fang

This is a set basically used to get an early SR and later come in to check various threats.

The primary perk it has over Landorus-T is that it has taunt to counter deoxys/ferrothorn/skarmory and friends. Otherwise Landorus completely outclasses Gliscor as a Lucario counter and general physical threat check. The speed enables you to outspeed all Deoxys-D, Lucario and breloom and occasionally net a surprise ko on a weakened mamoswine. You're also certain to outspeed heatran u turning to pop its balloon and switch into a pokemon that can tank the hp ice. Breloom won't enjoy a faster taunt if it bothers to lead and then ice fang 2hko's. Ice fang also 2hko's most common dragon leads.

196/116+/196 Landorus-T completely outclasses this set in every aspect except the lead position with that nifty intimidate and sueable hp ice.

mcdanger · Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:28:56 AM

what about an offensive or bulky double dance set as gliscor gets rock polish/agility and swords dance? It would work like landorus therian`s but gliscor wouldnt need to lean on its ability as much as landorus as he already has high defense. It could use a flying gem or a yache/passo berry with acrobatics, or toxic orb ice ice fang/stone edge.

Shurtugal · Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:31:57 AM

Gliscor can run FlingToxicOrb with Acrobatics. Although, I'm sure the OU staff have already discussed it before and have no approved it so ~

BurningMan · Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Gliscor can run FlingToxicOrb with Acrobatics. Although, I'm sure the OU staff have already discussed it before and have no approved it so ~

That actually was kind of gliscors standart set in very early BW until people discovered how much it sucks only being able to toxic something once and that acrobat sucks until you used fling wich made the whole set way to situational.

I really like the idea of this project, but i don't think Gliscor is such a good pokemon for this mainly due to the Ladorus formes outclasssing it in every offensive aspect outside of Acrobatics wich already has a set on site.
While gliscor actually got quite a nice movepool all viable options are already explored.

Weathermoves don't work well because gliscor can't really take advantage of Sun or Rain so it's just slapping a weather move on a random pokemon wich can kinda work as a surprise but that is not making a set effective or creative.

Usatoday · Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:37:11 AM

Gliscor @ Flying Gem
Nature Adamant
Ability Poison Heal
Evs 204 HP 252 Atk 52 Spd
Acrobatics
Ice Fang/U-Turn
Earthquake
Tailwind
Now this set is unique it takes the sand veil offensive gliscor which was annoying and scary to face and twists it as tailwind is not typically used in singles. However we sacrifice speed for a little bulk and tailwind will give gliscor the speed it lost. Now for those who don't know tailwind will double the speed of your team for three turns. Now there is acrobatics as the obvious powerful stab move to hit things such as celebi, breloom, and amoonguss and with max attacking investment it will be doing lots of damage. Next we have ice fang to hit dragons such as dragonite or salamence so we dont have to waste the flying gem on pokemon such as these, however one can opt for u turn if you desire to scout or preserve gliscor simply by using this move on the last turn of tailwind. Earthquake is the final stab move that we'll use for jirachi, tyranitar, metagross. Now the evs are custom made so that gliscor will have just enough speed to outspeed scarf base 110's with a positive nature more importantly latias and latios; While the rest goes into to hit points so gliscor will have an easier time setting up a tailwind and finally poison heal to absorb toxic from walls such blissey and get its health back since sand veil is banned. However if your running into trouble with landorus therian and want to be original I guess you could run hyper cutter and then be able to hit it with an ice fang. Calcs below.

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Shurtugal · Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:38:50 AM

I agree, in fact, I actually have a Landorus-I set I use when I'm bored:

@

Trait: Sand Force
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Imprison
- Earthquake / Stone Edge
- Explosion

It makes a nice suicide lead. Imprison cancel's moves known by the user, which means you can always seal the move Stealth Rock. This works great alongside Pokemon like Dragonite. Most people would think this set is outclassed by Azelf; however, they would be wrong. This set can actually prevent TTar from getting up rocks and it can set up rocks itself, as well as never losing to sand residual damage.

However, the introduction of BW2 has hampered this set a bit when SashSR Terrakion lead, but it still nabs those Explosion kills and it usually does work. Stone Edge is slashed with EQ just in case you hate those Gengar switch-ins.

TheWaddleDeeKing · Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:42:50 AM

That's a pretty cool set (ninja'd, meant the Gliscor set), though the problem with it is that after using your Flying Gem, you're not powerful enough to get through walls, even with EQ. 95 attack, even when maxed out, is just not that good enough for OU, not to mention this set receives major competition from Landorus-T, as does any offensive Gliscor set.

mcdanger · Jan 22nd, 2013, 12:32:09 PM

I think the biggest problem with trying to come up with innovative sets is as burning man said, gliscor is outclassed offensively by landorus i and defensively by landorus therian for the most part, his only niche over landorus therian is his access to roost. As waddledeeking keeps bringing up, gliscor has below average attack, which make it harder for him to sweep or muscle through walls with out swords dance, plus his base speed isnt the greatest, so he needs a sub, or a speed boost to really do alot of damage and can easily be revenge killed or forced out. I feel gliscor can be useful in setting up tailwind support tho, as some pokemon that like tailwind support like hydreigon like having gliscor as a partner to stop fighting types like terrakion. I was thinking of a set like

Gliscor@toxic orb
Trait: Poison Heal
Nature: Impish
EVs:252hp/184def/72speed
Moves
-U Turn
-Stealth Rocks
-Tailwind
-Roost/Earthquake/Taunt/Toxic

Standard evs, but I couldn`t think of much else, he can run 172hp/200def/136speed with impish to outpace adamant dragonite so he can taunt it, and adamant mamoswine so he can set up tailwind/stealth rocks, or u turn out as ice shard hits for 73-84% iirc, but i dont think its worth the defense drop. As i said above this set would be good with hydreigon if you wanted to try to tailwind sweep, or mixed kyurem black with the babiri berry for scizor.

Frochtejohgurt · Jan 22nd, 2013, 12:32:13 PM

Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Torment
- Substitute
- Protect
- Taunt/(Eartquake)

A wild TormentGliscor appeared. This set abuses Gliscor's multiple resistances and two immunity to annoy and stall out the opponent. Many physical attacker often have only one move to break its sub like most Mamoswines, normally a Gliscor counter, or SubSD Grachomp etc., which Gliscor can block with Protect or Substitute. But it can also stall out special attacker that only have an Electric attack as their second attacking move like Rotom-W, which is also considered a counter to Gliscor. Earthquake can come in handy finish off some weakened threats, but Taunt in combination with Torment forces defensive pokemon to Struggle, if they only carry one attacking move like Skarmory another Gliscor counter. With Toxic support and in this case reliable recovery in Toxic Heal+Protect+Substitute this set can stall out offensive and defensive Pokemons.

TheWaddleDeeKing · Jan 22nd, 2013, 1:58:56 PM

In theory Torment seems like a good idea, but really it's only good against physical attackers. Most special attackers can hit neutral or better. Perhaps a more specially defensive oriented Torment could work, but even then all you're doing is getting Toxic off on attackers or setting up rocks just to get booted out the next turn. Personally if you want a physical Tormenting wall I think you're better off with Skarmory, and a specially Tormenting wall goes over to Heatran.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that Torment Skarmory is trash on top of that. There was a whole analysis dedicated to a Torment Skarmory set and it was QC Rejected.

Jan 21st, 2013, 7:24:38 PM	#2
Novaray i am happy Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,140 that's just the saddest lie Mentor	Archived Sets (set name - creator) Gliscor - Superpowerdude ... Gliscor @ Toxic Orb EV's: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 72 Spe Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpA) / Trait: Poison Heal -Earthquake -U-turn -Toxic -Taunt I can see this Gliscor set working very well on sand teams and volt turn teams. The combination of Taunt+U-turn is very great to grab momentum as you can do something like make Skarmory useless, then switch into a Pokemon that can take it on like Magnezone. Taunts use isn't only to stop opponents setting up hazards, but blocking status attempts and stat booster can definitely help your sweepers setting up and all you have to do once you have Taunted your opponent it U-turn to the most apporopraite Pokemon. So basically this set annoys the opponent with either Toxic or Taunt, then U-turns out. As I mentioned earlier this Pokemon works well with sand and volt turn. Scizor and Magnezone are great partners because they can continue the volt turn chain, and they can trap Gengar and Skarmory two Pokemon that wall this set. Mew - Joeyboy ... Mew @ Life Orb / Leftovers Trait: Synchronize EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def Jolly Nature - Reflect Type - Swords Dance - Drain Punch - Sucker Punch Oh yeah, reflect type dudes and dudettes. Tired of Tyranitars and Scizors ganging up on Mew, you can kiss that fear goodbye. Set up a Swords Dance on the switch, and then BOOM hit 'em with a Reflect Type, weakness removed. Also people often think Mew is the WoW+Taunt so they'll switch in things like Heatran, set up Swords Dance and Drain Punch that volcano beast. Drain Punch and Sucker Punch provide pretty neat coverage, plus you can set up to +2 and try for a mini sweep. Sidebar: Was looking at all the tms mew gets... am I the only one whos never heard of the move Quash... Infernape - Joeyboy ... Infernape @ Life Orb / Expert Belt Trait: Blaze EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk Hasty Nature - Sunny Day - SolarBeam - Fire Blast - Close Combat Took a chapter from Venusaur's and Ninetales books. Infernape was considered a top tier wallbreaker last gen, but that all changed with the introduction of Drizzle to the OU metagame. In the rain Infernape's Fire-type stab is neutered and without it it can't hope to break pretty much any common defensive core. Jellicent and Tentacruel act as fairly good counters to the usual set but with Sunny Day that all changes. See a Politoed coming in? Use Sunny Day now something on the enemy team is gunna get smashed. Lati@s still remain apt counters to this set so U-Turn could potentially go over Close Combat but that removes your way to get past 'mons like Heatran or bulky Tyranitar. Plus the best Jellicent and Tentacruel can do now is either Toxic or use a weak Sun-weakened Scald. Expert Belt can be used if you're worried about too much passive damage but Life Orb helps in breaking Tentacruel. Espeon - youngjake93 ... The idea of this set is to do Espeon's job without losing momentum. It comes in on the hazard setter, threatens with a OHKO(2HKO for deo-d) if it stays in, but will 2HKO bulky things like Tyranitar/Jirachi switching in to attempt to take momentum back and/or change the weather. I've got HP Fire over HP Fighting to threaten Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Scizor, etc and because you shouldn't be trying to take on Tyranitar 1v1 anyway(grass knot KOs switch-ins). With Modest you still outspeed +Spd base 95s. Espeon @ Life Orb Trait: Magic Bounce EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def Modest Nature - Grass Knot - Hidden Power Fire - Psychic - Shadow Ball ______________ 252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 179-213 (44.3 - 52.72%) -- 85.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 166-198 (54.6 - 65.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 211-250 (54.94 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 333-395 (94.6 - 112.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 359-424 (98.62 - 116.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 221-260 (54.7 - 64.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Life Orb Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 208-247 (64.39 - 76.47%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Most of these sets being suggested for Espeon seem at least as useful as the on-site ones tbh. Celebi - Neliel ... Celebi @ Life Orb Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Swords Dance - Seed Bomb - Sucker Punch - Baton Pass As you can see, this is a phisical celebi. Sword dance its quite underrated to be honest, and the fact that it can use a strong priority like sucker punch is what makes this set good. Celebi has many usefull resistances, such as to ground, water, eletric pokemon that can use as a setup bait to do a couple of sword dance. For example, its perfect to setup sword dance against rainstall teams and then to batonpass the boost to some other threatening pokemon. by the way, the evs and the item here only have the purpose to power up sucker punch. I would say that sucker punch its nothing to laugh about in term of power, here some calculations after a sword dance; ... This set find his home on heavy offense teams. Deo-d its a great support for him since celebi appreciates the almost always stealth rock on the field and spikes. Obviously there are some pokemon that full stops it, like steel types, but this is what baton pass is for. Basically, if a scizor comes in while you sword dance, you can bpass to something else that take care of him, for example scarf darmanitan. Other good teammates are scarf moxie mence, ddnite, Sd lucario/scizor, even arcanine can be good thanks to the +2 extreme speed he can use. Jirachi - Shurtugal ... Jirachi @ Choice Specs Trait: Serene Grace Nature: Modest EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SDef - Doom Desire - Psyshock - Thunder / Thunderbolt - Hidden Power [Ice] / Grass Knot / U-turn / Healing Wish 1. Doom Desire can OHKO Reu. At least, last time I used it Doom Desire did ^-^. 2. Destroy stall instantly; suffer the drawbacks of being forced out after using DD 3. Nice for gimmick teams Hydreigon - Cherub Agent ... Scary Face can miss, why not just use Thunder Wave? It's permanent, and no Ground-type wants to come in on a Hydreigon anyway, as they're all mauled by Draco Meteor. Hydreigon @ Life Orb Trait: Levitate EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 194 Spe Mild / Modest Nature - Tailwind - Draco Meteor - Flamethrower - Superpower / Roost Hydreigon is an incredible user of Tailwind, and generally amazing Pokemon to use on Sun teams (obviously not only on them, but the Specs set can straight up OHKO any weather starter, the Substitute set has excellent longevity, the mixed set is great at taking out Heatran etc). I've used this Hydreigon on my Sun team for a while now, as powerful Fire-types such as Heatran and Darmanitan can more or less go to town under Sun and Tailwind. Hydreigon's huge slew of resistances and immunities (eight in total) allow it to reliably set up Tailwind; if this wasn't enough, it also has Roost to set it up multiple times and to offset that Life Orb recoil. The beauty of this set is really that every time you bring it out it can do a different thing. You can immediately set up Tailwind. You can instantly fire off a Draco Meteor. You can destroy some of Sun's greatest enemies such as Tyranitar and Heatran with a well placed Superpower. Hydreigon is an incredibly versatile Pokemon with no true counters, and has a large variety of sets that it can successfully run. Tyranitar - DarkBlazeR ... Tyranitar @ Focus Sash Trait: Sand Stream EVs: 120 Atk / 136 SAtk / 252 Spd Hasty Nature - Crunch - Superpower - Flamethrower - Ice Beam This set is a great change of pace from the usual Tyranitar sets. Although it requires a bit of support to work to its full potential, such as Rapid Spin support to keep hazards away, and good prediction to get in safely, when played correctly this set will usually net you 2-3 KOs per match. The reason it works so effectively is because of the surprise value - few people expect Tyranitar to run max Speed, and even fewer expect Tyranitar to run a mixed set in tandem with max Speed. With Crunch you can bluff a choice item initially, only to KO the opponent with the appropriate move who think you're locked in. Some of Tyranitar's usual checks, e.g. Scizor, Breloom, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, Tangrowth etc will be swiftly dealt with by Flamethrower/Ice Beam. Focus Sash is an amazing item on this Tyranitar, as it enables it to get unexpected KOs on things that could formerly beat it. Most notable is Terrakion, whom attempts to revenge kill with Close Combat. Tyranitar's sash activates, and KOs Terrakion in the same turn with Superpower. You no longer have to hope that Gengar's Focus Blast will miss, as you will come out on top 100% of the time with Focus Sash still functional. Dragons trying to break through you will come to an icy end. The list goes on. This Tyranitar may be lacking in terms of overall power, but its ability to turn the tide of the game in your favour makes it worth using. Obviously it isn't as adept at winning the weather war as the standard, bulkier Tyranitar sets, so I'd recommend you either use it in tandem with Hippowdon, or use it on an offensive team that doesn't really rely on weather but would like some way of checking other weather teams. Specifically, it tends to pair well with certain sweepers that are checked by mons that this Tyranitar lures in - Salamence/Lucario/SD Landorus-T to name a few, though another very notable teammate for this set is OTR Reuniclus, who appreciates Tyranitar removing Scizor from play. Metagross - Joeyboy ... Metagross @ Leftovers Trait: Clear Body EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spd Adamant Nature - Substitute - Toxic - Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt - Earthquake / Hammer Arm This is a pretty cool set and has been the only one I'll run if I want to run a Metagross, really only when Torn-T was around and then only rarely ;]. So the set works a lot like SubToxic Heatran. Metagross has got some great resists plus enough bulk and power to force switches, when it does you Sub up. From there you can A) Smack something hard or B) Toxic Stall something. Toxic is great on this set as Bulky Water-types are some of Metagross most common switch-ins. And with Sub+Toxic you can stall them out until you can EQ them to death. Speed EVs are to speed creep Sub Magnezone and should give you plenty of room to outpace Tyranitar, though by no means will outspeed them all, then max attack to smash things and finally extra EVs go to HP for a snazzy Leftovers number. To address the slashes: As neliel pointed out zen headbutt has some utility as it can hit the water-types harder, plus if you're team really doesn't like Keldeo that might make the nod in its favor. Hammer Arm can also be used, but really the only utility I see is if your team really dosen't like Skarmory as Hammer Arm will do more to the metal bird. __________________ island in the sun Last edited by Novaray; Mar 25th, 2013 at 6:11:40 PM.

Jan 21st, 2013, 7:37:27 PM	#4
Master of the Six Kings Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 791 Where soccer is the correct terminology and bacon isn't dishonest	"For example, using Steel Gem over Choice Band on Scizor does nothing to show any untapped potential Scizor has because we already have a basic understanding of what Golem does." Your example is really confusing haha. Anyway, one thing that might help this is separating the "next subject" part and making it its own post, and adding a list of movesets, items or moves that aren't accepted as part of the learning process. Anyway, Skarmory is defaintely a Pokemon i'd feel counters Gliscor 100%. Immune to Toxic and EQ, and can Whirlwind all Subs/Boosts. Rock Slide/Stone Edge/Ice Fang all do nothing to it. Bronzong is similair, although it can be set-up fodder for BP sets that don't use agility...haha. Last edited by Master of the Six Kings; Jan 21st, 2013 at 11:03:13 PM.

Jan 21st, 2013, 8:33:48 PM	#8
Manitary Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 153 Italy	The problem is that he need to get a Swords Dance in order to kill his threats not named 0/4 Starmie, but also a Tailwaind/Agility to outspeed them (bar priority users such Mamoswine). So if the opponent switch in the counter while you get only one of the two boost you are too slow or not enough powerful to get the OHKO and you're probably forced out. Maybe you can use something like Tailwind/U-Turn (as proposed before) but then you've only two moveslot remaining. He can also run something like Agility/SD SubPass or similar but I don't think it could work too well. __________________ A Smogon Doubles team need your help to improve...go here to check it! -- FR Scramble (Update group #1 - E4 beaten - E4 rematch beaten) B2 Random Nuzlocke (E4 beaten) B2 monotype Poison (E4 beaten)

Jan 21st, 2013, 9:13:29 PM	#9
hotcoldyay Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 174	I was thinking this, not sure if its too effective. Gliscor@Toxic Orb Adamant, 120 HP/252 Atk/32 Def/104 Spe -Agility/Tailwind -Earthquake -Facade/Baton Pass/U-Turn/Taunt/fire fang -Ice Fang/Baton Pass/U-Turn/Taunt/fire fang After one agility, you outspeed everything up to scarfed 110s with this spread. Max attack is for maximum damage done. Hp evs put a recovery number, and defense evs buffer that stat a litttle. Toxic orb could be replaced with life orb to put more damage, and there could be a change of ability, but avoiding status plus good recovery is irreplaceable. Tailwind and agility are for speed boost. Earthquake for stab. Ice fang and facade are attacking options. Tailwind works well with u-turn, and agility with baton pass. Taunt is useful for shutting down things like skarm, who like to come in and wall it to death. Fire fang is for more coverage. Sub and protect are nice, but dont really accomplish much, except for the former, which might work with agility. Stealth rock could be used, buts i dont think its that useful here anyway. Theres probably variations to this. This set must be crappy since i just made it up, but at least i tried :P Almost all of gliscors sets have already been named, and since hes a wall with only decent offensive stats, its pretty difficult to come up with anything new for it. __________________ Black FC- 1377 6936 4444 It's not about the destination: it's the fun in the journey. But I think Ash has took that far enough in the anime.

Jan 21st, 2013, 9:50:49 PM	#11
TheWaddleDeeKing Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 51 Earth	Knock Off I believe is mentioned in the OO part of the current Gliscor analysis. Torment is garbage unless you have really good typing. You'll only ever see it on Heatran due to its resists, and even then I never see it on Heatran. Bulldoze could certainly be interesting but even then you're not gonna hit really anything that won't KO you in return. It's annoying at best, honestly it's better to setup rocks or Toxic. As for the weather options, they're all best left to Bronzong. __________________ "Bitch, I'm a king." -Kenshiro

Jan 21st, 2013, 7:23:49 PM	#1
Novaray i am happy Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,140 that's just the saddest lie Mentor	The Next Best Thing The Next Best Thing... credit to fatty for most of the op and the idea approved by Birkal and Harsha What is this?: I for one, along with many others I'm sure, feel as though there is some untapped power within the OU environment. There is substantial evidence for this idea in the form of one commonality for most tiers, OU included: there always seems to be one or more new-fangled, hyped up sets that weren't originally main-stay or seen as "viable" by the community, but somehow has taken the metagame by storm. This can be seen in DPP OU (with Special Lucario transitioning to SD Lucario, Heatran eventually running items other than Choice Scarf, and the influx of ChestoRest Kingdra) in ADV (with the vaunted TyraniBoah now becoming almost an urban myth in comparison to Special and DD Tyranitar, and the increasing popularity of SupeRachi) and in BW OU (with the advent of SubSalac Terrakion, SubDisable Gengar, and ChestoRest Volcarona). Yes, some of these sets may have been found early on with respect to the creation of the tier or fairly recently, the point is, though, that there seems to be an endless supply of effective and potent sets out there yet to be discovered, especially factoring in metagame swings and the possible tier shifts. The purpose of this project will be to systematically subject each and every OU Pokemon to a collective body of research in an attempt to uncover these "hidden gems", so to speak, and hopefully spark some creativity throughout the OU community. The Process: Each week, I will choose a different OU Pokemon, sometimes chosen by random, sometimes chosen by curiousity, of which participants will try to personally create a new set for that is not already on-site or in the process of being put on-site. Participants will be given 3 days to create their set, with discussion about the particular sets being promoted throughout, and on the 4th and 5th day, a vote will be held to choose which user's set represented the most creative and simultaneously competitively viable set to utilize in the current OU metagame. Once the votes are tallied and a winner is crowned, the set will be archived in the OP and the process will start all over again for the next Pokemon specimen. What are we looking for?: Specifically, I want to stress the importance of the balance between creativity and viability when picking a set to post for the Pokemon in question. There's a very fine line between a "creative" set and a "gimmick", and this project is not meant to produce gimmicks, rather emphasize the ability to think outside the box when using a specific Pokemon in order to maximize it's potential. Having said that, I would also like to deviate from simple one move / item changes. For example, using Steel Gem over Choice Band on Scizor does nothing to show any untapped potential Scizor has because we already have a basic understanding of what Scizor does. The same goes for using Draco Meteor over Fire Blast on DD Salamence, it doesn't yield productive discussion or results for the project. I am looking for sets that test what we think we know about checks or counters, so-called standards, and what it means to be viable. Maybe a particular option for a Pokemon looks inferior at first glance for that particular Pokemon, but dig deeper and try and find what it might mean in the big picture, for the entire team. The next test subject is... Vaporeon! Some things to consider: What is thought to "counter" this pokemon? Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters? What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside? What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame? What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against? How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates? __________________________________ __________________ island in the sun Last edited by Novaray; Mar 25th, 2013 at 6:10:12 PM.

Jan 21st, 2013, 7:31:06 PM	#3
Oyster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 109 Tar Heel State	The OP has me a bit confused. Are we only going to be looking at OU pokes, or pokes from all tiers?

Jan 21st, 2013, 7:46:49 PM	#5
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 678 France	ChestoRest SD Gliscor maybe? Kinda the same idea as the old acrobat set except that it uses his bulk to grab more boosts and then heal it off along with status. Not sure if I should go Hyper Cutter or Poison Heal but I'll edit this post with the set later. Then again, he already has Roost and Poison Heal as recovery so I don't see what Rest is bringing him besides Acrobat (Roost plus Flight Gem works just as well) and a one time chance to blow off burn. I tried calcing CB but that attack stat is so pitiful it just isn't worth it. Maybe a Tailwind + U-Turn set that works kinda like SubPass? Run it with EQ and Flight Gem Acro to have some instant threat, kinda.

Jan 21st, 2013, 7:49:59 PM	#6
Oyster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 109 Tar Heel State	Skarm is definitely counter #1, but building a set specifically designed to bypass Skarm seems wasteful, since it prevents Gliscor from filling other important roles and if you really want to get rid of Skarmory, you could just use Magnezone or something. I think we'd be better off trying to find a set that fills a certain niche instead.

Jan 21st, 2013, 9:39:37 PM	#10
MCBarrett Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 204	I think tailwind isn't a very good option since it can pass agility anyway which can last for a potentially longer time. I feel like the best way to look at a new set for Gliscor would be to utilize its support move pool which turns out to be pretty good. Here are a few moves I found interesting: Knock off, torment, Bulldoze, and sunny day, rain dance, or sandstorm. Knock off can cripple many opposing Pokemon, including opposing Gliscor. Torment is very annoying, as seen on heatran but it may not be as effective without being able to trap. Bulldoze lowers speed at the cost of 40 Bp compared to earthquake. Sunny day, rain dance and sandstorm can all provide team support. I could see any one of these moves providing good support to gliscor's teammates.

Jan 21st, 2013, 10:14:11 PM	#13
Superpowerdude A Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 914 Australia Mentor	Gliscor @ Toxic Orb EV's: 252 HP / 184 Atk / 72 Spe Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpA) / Trait: Poison Heal -Earthquake -U-turn -Toxic -Taunt I can see this Gliscor set working very well on sand teams and volt turn teams. The combination of Taunt+U-turn is very great to grab momentum as you can do something like make Skarmory useless, then switch into a Pokemon that can take it on like Magnezone. Taunts use isn't only to stop opponents setting up hazards, but blocking status attempts and stat booster can definitely help your sweepers setting up and all you have to do once you have Taunted your opponent it U-turn to the most apporopraite Pokemon. So basically this set annoys the opponent with either Toxic or Taunt, then U-turns out. As I mentioned earlier this Pokemon works well with sand and volt turn. Scizor and Magnezone are great partners because they can continue the volt turn chain, and they can trap Gengar and Skarmory two Pokemon that wall this set. __________________ #ratemyteam \| Smog Work\| Rater Of the Week \| RMT \| Dogbirds Join #dogbirds on irc!!!

Jan 21st, 2013, 10:37:23 PM	#14
SubakSupreme Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 67	In terms of setting up weather, Gliscor's advantages over Bronzong and Landorus-Tare its access to U-Turn and Taunt. A set looking something like this Gliscor @ Toxic orb 252 hp/ 40 def/ 216 spe Nature:Impish Trait: Posion Heal - Sunny Day -U-turn -Earthquake -Taunt/toxic This set is meant to support sun teams by setting up sun in front of common threats as well as acting as a good pivot. Gliscor can set up sun on things Ninetales would never switch into such as Terrakion or Tyranitar this takes pressure off of Nintales to keep sun up and still walls key sand threats. U-Turn is is used to set up Set up sun and flee witch eases prediction and allows Gliscor to bring in a chlorophyll sweeper or appropriate check/counter to the threat. Earthquake is stab which does sold damage to Tyranitar and friends as well as being able to OHKO Heatran. In the last slot Taunt can stop slower hazard setters and set sweepers from setting up while toxic can be used to weaken bulky waters and dragons. 216 speed Evs allows Gliscor to outrun adamant Lucario as well as timid Heatran. The standard spread of 252 hp/ 176/ 72 spe can be used but then offensive non scarf Rotom-W. can out speed and kill. Last edited by SubakSupreme; Jan 22nd, 2013 at 2:41:59 PM.

Jan 21st, 2013, 10:47:25 PM	#15
youngjake93 Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 263	Well.. I think Gliscor's subpass set is pretty threatening if you pass it to something with low HP, but high defenses(think Shuckle and evioliters). Cloyster makes a great receiver by resisting Ice and Water while also having a good reason to hide behind a sub. It's a shame about that sDef stat. You could also slap it on a rain team because there are a lot of water types that have those same resists. They just may not appreciate a substitute as much as Cloyster. Idk, it's kind of hard to not delve into gimmicks as most good sets are already covered. Sort of crappy ideas floating through my brain: Power Trick passing? Thief+Fling? Weather starting and Knock off have already been mentioned Poison Jab could be used on a stalling set to save moveslots as it can poison+attack. One reeeeally interesting idea is STRUGGLE BUG. Just think of the thousands of special attackers that switch into Gliscor. Starmie and Celebi even get hit for a dent of damage. On a hazard stacking set, Gliscor could use Struggle Bug+Stealth Rock. I like stat debuffs over phazing a lot of times on hazard stacking teams b/c you don't lose momentum when they decide to hard switch on their own(you actually gain it). __________________ http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3475016 Rate My Team?

Jan 21st, 2013, 11:39:37 PM	#16
HabibsHotDogs Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 236	This is my favourite Gliscor set: Gliscor @ Toxic Orb Poison Heal 252 Hp / 216+ Spd / 40 Def -Earthquake / Ice Fang -Taunt -Stealth Rock -U-Turn / Ice Fang This is a set basically used to get an early SR and later come in to check various threats. The primary perk it has over Landorus-T is that it has taunt to counter deoxys/ferrothorn/skarmory and friends. Otherwise Landorus completely outclasses Gliscor as a Lucario counter and general physical threat check. The speed enables you to outspeed all Deoxys-D, Lucario and breloom and occasionally net a surprise ko on a weakened mamoswine. You're also certain to outspeed heatran u turning to pop its balloon and switch into a pokemon that can tank the hp ice. Breloom won't enjoy a faster taunt if it bothers to lead and then ice fang 2hko's. Ice fang also 2hko's most common dragon leads. 196/116+/196 Landorus-T completely outclasses this set in every aspect except the lead position with that nifty intimidate and sueable hp ice.

Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:28:56 AM	#17
mcdanger Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 39 schroon lake	what about an offensive or bulky double dance set as gliscor gets rock polish/agility and swords dance? It would work like landorus therian`s but gliscor wouldnt need to lean on its ability as much as landorus as he already has high defense. It could use a flying gem or a yache/passo berry with acrobatics, or toxic orb ice ice fang/stone edge.

Jan 22nd, 2013, 10:31:57 AM	#18
Shurtugal Teach love to all the little birds! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 819 Florida	Gliscor can run FlingToxicOrb with Acrobatics. Although, I'm sure the OU staff have already discussed it before and have no approved it so ~ __________________ If you want your team rated; feel free to PM or VM me for your own, personalized rate! If you want to learn how to battle and win; check out my guide! Feel free to check out my team in OU that peaked #1!

Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:37:11 AM	#20
Usatoday Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42 A Country's Greatness is Measured by It's Possessions.	Gliscor @ Flying Gem Nature Adamant Ability Poison Heal Evs 204 HP 252 Atk 52 Spd Acrobatics Ice Fang/U-Turn Earthquake Tailwind Now this set is unique it takes the sand veil offensive gliscor which was annoying and scary to face and twists it as tailwind is not typically used in singles. However we sacrifice speed for a little bulk and tailwind will give gliscor the speed it lost. Now for those who don't know tailwind will double the speed of your team for three turns. Now there is acrobatics as the obvious powerful stab move to hit things such as celebi, breloom, and amoonguss and with max attacking investment it will be doing lots of damage. Next we have ice fang to hit dragons such as dragonite or salamence so we dont have to waste the flying gem on pokemon such as these, however one can opt for u turn if you desire to scout or preserve gliscor simply by using this move on the last turn of tailwind. Earthquake is the final stab move that we'll use for jirachi, tyranitar, metagross. Now the evs are custom made so that gliscor will have just enough speed to outspeed scarf base 110's with a positive nature more importantly latias and latios; While the rest goes into to hit points so gliscor will have an easier time setting up a tailwind and finally poison heal to absorb toxic from walls such blissey and get its health back since sand veil is banned. However if your running into trouble with landorus therian and want to be original I guess you could run hyper cutter and then be able to hit it with an ice fang. Calcs below. ... 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 252HP/0Def Levitate Latias (Neutral): 71% - 84% (259 - 306 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 94% - 111% (285 - 336 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Tyranitar (Neutral): 78% - 92% (270 - 318 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Water Absorb Politoed (Neutral): 93% - 109% (300 - 354 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 59% chance to OHKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Water Absorb Politoed (+Def): 53% - 62% (204 - 241 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Reuniclus (Neutral): 70% - 83% (300 - 354 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Ice Fang vs 252HP/172Def Leftovers Gliscor (+Def): 46% - 55% (164 - 196 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 7% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Jirachi (Neutral): 71% - 84% (288 - 342 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus (Neutral): 106% - 125% (318 - 375 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tentacruel (Neutral): 135% - 160% (410 - 486 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Tentacruel (+Def): 74% - 89% (272 - 324 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Ice Fang vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Volt Absorb Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 56% - 66% (170 - 200 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 252Atk Flight Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Volt Absorb Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 53% - 62% (159 - 187 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. __________________ VM Me for a team rate in OU / UU / RU / NU

Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:38:50 AM	#21
Shurtugal Teach love to all the little birds! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 819 Florida	I agree, in fact, I actually have a Landorus-I set I use when I'm bored: @ Trait: Sand Force Nature: Jolly EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe - Stealth Rock - Imprison - Earthquake / Stone Edge - Explosion It makes a nice suicide lead. Imprison cancel's moves known by the user, which means you can always seal the move Stealth Rock. This works great alongside Pokemon like Dragonite. Most people would think this set is outclassed by Azelf; however, they would be wrong. This set can actually prevent TTar from getting up rocks and it can set up rocks itself, as well as never losing to sand residual damage. However, the introduction of BW2 has hampered this set a bit when SashSR Terrakion lead, but it still nabs those Explosion kills and it usually does work. Stone Edge is slashed with EQ just in case you hate those Gengar switch-ins. __________________ If you want your team rated; feel free to PM or VM me for your own, personalized rate! If you want to learn how to battle and win; check out my guide! Feel free to check out my team in OU that peaked #1!

Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:42:50 AM	#22
TheWaddleDeeKing Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 51 Earth	That's a pretty cool set (ninja'd, meant the Gliscor set), though the problem with it is that after using your Flying Gem, you're not powerful enough to get through walls, even with EQ. 95 attack, even when maxed out, is just not that good enough for OU, not to mention this set receives major competition from Landorus-T, as does any offensive Gliscor set. __________________ "Bitch, I'm a king." -Kenshiro

Jan 22nd, 2013, 12:32:09 PM	#23
mcdanger Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 39 schroon lake	I think the biggest problem with trying to come up with innovative sets is as burning man said, gliscor is outclassed offensively by landorus i and defensively by landorus therian for the most part, his only niche over landorus therian is his access to roost. As waddledeeking keeps bringing up, gliscor has below average attack, which make it harder for him to sweep or muscle through walls with out swords dance, plus his base speed isnt the greatest, so he needs a sub, or a speed boost to really do alot of damage and can easily be revenge killed or forced out. I feel gliscor can be useful in setting up tailwind support tho, as some pokemon that like tailwind support like hydreigon like having gliscor as a partner to stop fighting types like terrakion. I was thinking of a set like Gliscor@toxic orb Trait: Poison Heal Nature: Impish EVs:252hp/184def/72speed Moves -U Turn -Stealth Rocks -Tailwind -Roost/Earthquake/Taunt/Toxic Standard evs, but I couldn`t think of much else, he can run 172hp/200def/136speed with impish to outpace adamant dragonite so he can taunt it, and adamant mamoswine so he can set up tailwind/stealth rocks, or u turn out as ice shard hits for 73-84% iirc, but i dont think its worth the defense drop. As i said above this set would be good with hydreigon if you wanted to try to tailwind sweep, or mixed kyurem black with the babiri berry for scizor.

Jan 22nd, 2013, 12:32:13 PM	#24
Frochtejohgurt Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 84	Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb Trait: Poison Heal EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk) - Torment - Substitute - Protect - Taunt/(Eartquake) A wild TormentGliscor appeared. This set abuses Gliscor's multiple resistances and two immunity to annoy and stall out the opponent. Many physical attacker often have only one move to break its sub like most Mamoswines, normally a Gliscor counter, or SubSD Grachomp etc., which Gliscor can block with Protect or Substitute. But it can also stall out special attacker that only have an Electric attack as their second attacking move like Rotom-W, which is also considered a counter to Gliscor. Earthquake can come in handy finish off some weakened threats, but Taunt in combination with Torment forces defensive pokemon to Struggle, if they only carry one attacking move like Skarmory another Gliscor counter. With Toxic support and in this case reliable recovery in Toxic Heal+Protect+Substitute this set can stall out offensive and defensive Pokemons. __________________ Früchtejoghurt*

Jan 22nd, 2013, 1:58:56 PM	#25
TheWaddleDeeKing Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 51 Earth	In theory Torment seems like a good idea, but really it's only good against physical attackers. Most special attackers can hit neutral or better. Perhaps a more specially defensive oriented Torment could work, but even then all you're doing is getting Toxic off on attackers or setting up rocks just to get booted out the next turn. Personally if you want a physical Tormenting wall I think you're better off with Skarmory, and a specially Tormenting wall goes over to Heatran. EDIT: Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that Torment Skarmory is trash on top of that. There was a whole analysis dedicated to a Torment Skarmory set and it was QC Rejected. __________________ "Bitch, I'm a king." -Kenshiro Last edited by TheWaddleDeeKing; Jan 22nd, 2013 at 2:21:53 PM.