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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 12:00:32 AM   #1
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Default Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah via VM
Hey dude, do you feel like taking over the RBY in-game tier list? I haven't really maintained it in ages so I think it's better off in someone else's hands. If you want it just make a new thread and copypaste where we left off.
Mekkah messaged me and asked if I wanted to take this over. Thanks for all the hard work!

If a mod could lock the old one that would be great.

Those who are interested in the older threads can find them here:

Pokemon RBY In-game tiers - Mark I
Pokemon RBY In-game tiers - Mark II

Quote:
TO DO:
General

Add mentions of Rival battles.
Here's the list so far:

Quick List


Top Tier


High Tier


Mid Tier


Low Tier


Now, if you submit a new entry, please follow this format.

-Pokemon Name - Top/High/Mid/Low Tier (PICK ONE)
-Availability: Can you get them early on and are they easy to get?
-Stats: Do they have a usable stat distribution?
-Movepool: Do they have a good movepool that needs little TM support? (By that I mean hard to replace TMs such as ones you get from gyms.)
-Power: Are they strong enough to sweep through enemies without taking too much damage in return?
-Type: Do they have useful STABs and resistances?
-Match-ups: Do they fare well in gym and/or boss battles?

Please write somewhat professionally.

Some guidelines we picked up along the way:
- No glitches allowed.
- No trading in Pokemon from other games. Back and forth to evolve Graveler, Kadabra, Haunter and Machoke can be considered, but is not assumed.
- If a Pokemon is vastly different in Yellow compared to Red/Blue, you have the option of writing a different entry for both, even if they end up in the same tier. Examples of this are Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle.

Happy discussing, and if there's something that needs changing just say so in this thread. If I miss it, feel free to PM/VM.

Last edited by atsync; May 8th, 2013 at 9:26:10 PM.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 12:04:34 AM   #2
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I have to disagree with charmander being top. It is literally useless in the first two gyms and doesn't do great in the third. It also fails against lance and only does well against erika's gym. I would say mid is the best place for it.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 12:09:11 AM   #3
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I didn't get to finish editing Geodude in the last thread, so change these parts around:

-Movepool: For STAB Geodude learns Rock Throw and Earthquake by Learn-Up, or Rock Slide and Dig by TM, those are the only real moves Geodude needs as Rock/Ground is unresisted in RBY. Geodude doesn't start off with STAB moves, so giving him Mega Punch can help in the earlier game.
--Misty: As Geodude is quadruple weak to Water moves and has low Special, even Staryu will be too much for Geodude to handle.
--Erika: Golem's quadruple weakness to Grass and low speed means Golem shouldn't even be fighting the trainers in this gym.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 12:31:33 AM   #4
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A few things to note:
  • I went through the old thread and added everything that was proposed since the last update, including tier changes for Clefairy, Ponyta and others. If anyone notices any errors, or if I overlooked an entry by mistake, then speak up and I'll fix it.
  • I also added "X Accuracy + OHKO moves are not allowed" to the guidelines because it's a rule that has been established for a while and it seemed appropriate to add it in.
At this point, I think the list is getting close to complete. In fact, there is absolutely nothing stopping me (or whoever plans on publishing this, although I'm happy to do it when the time comes) from simply taking the list we have now and turning it into an article for the main site since we have entries written up for everything that needs them and, in my opinion, the list is actually useful enough for publication even if it isn't 100% perfect. However, I'm not going to do this until I feel more comfortable that there is more of a consensus.

What I have taken from the last thread is that there are some people that aren't necessarily in agreement with some of the entries and what tier they are in, with the RB starters being a notable example. I will not be changing any pokemon on the whim of 1 or 2 users of course, but what I'm thinking of doing next is getting those interested in this project to review every entry we have so far so we can decide once and for all where each thing goes. What I specifically want to do is, every so often, make a new post with a few of the entries pasted in and have people discuss whether these pokemon are in the right tier, and also if the entries themselves contain correct information that is relevent to the Pokemon's function and provides a convincing argument for their tier placement. If a consensus is reached after discussion, then I'll conclude that that tier is where the Pokemon is going to go, and any changes that need to be made will be made. Hopefully that will provide an organised and efficient QC process.

I'll probably start doing this in a few days. In the meantime, feel free to discuss whatever you wish.

@Hemp Man: Added that stuff, thanks.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 1:15:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2 View Post
I have to disagree with charmander being top. It is literally useless in the first two gyms and doesn't do great in the third. It also fails against lance and only does well against erika's gym. I would say mid is the best place for it.
I'd say this is a pretty common misconception. If you've ever tried to speedrun R/B (both for in-game time and real-time), you'd know that Charmander comes out significantly faster in the beginning, and only starts getting somewhat weak toward the end.

Some facts:
- Brock's Pokemon do not know any Rock moves, and have terrible Sp.Def. Charmander can defeat them with extremely little hassle using Ember, even with it being NVE. Try it.
- There are a lot of Bug Catchers before Misty. Charmander defeats them faster than anything else, and can quickly gain levels doing so. This more than makes up the time lost on beating Brock.

@atsync: Why was X Accuracy + OHKO moves decided to be not allowed for discussion? I recall that wasn't present in the original thread.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 4:30:21 AM   #6
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Regarding OHKO + X Accuracy:

I just went and had a look at the very first thread to see what I could find on X Accuracy, but I can't seem to find anything that specifically states that X Accuracy + OHKO should be disallowed. I could have sworn otherwise. I DID find some posts that were made during discussions about Seel/Dewgong that touch on X Accuracy, such as:

Quote:
That said, the abuse of the X Accuracy exploit in these speedrun-ish videos sets a bit of a dangerous precedent when used to tier Pokemon. We should not turn this list into one of "what can solo the game the best", because even though that is the most efficient way, it does not allow for very good discussion since it makes everything cut and dry. That doesn't mean Dewgong isn't ridiculously good, of course. It just means that we should not judge every Pokemon by whether they can take the entire Elite Four on their own.
That seems to be more directed around SOLOING rather than simple X Accuracy + OHKO though, which isn't the same thing. So I'll remove that from the guidelines. As far as how we proceed from here, I'm not expecting that allowing this strategy will have a huge effect on the tiers considering we are tiering based on a run with a team of at least 3-4 pkemon rather than a solo (which is where OHKO abuse is probably most relevent), but we may need to add mentions to the analyses of the pokemon that learn them just to be as complete as possible.

We'll get to that later though.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 5:52:42 AM   #7
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I think the whole X-Accuracy/OHKO thing wasn't exactly banned, per se, but reading these three pages from the original thread should roughly be a good idea of what exactly happened. There's also this post by NixHex which I pretty much agree with: it kills the spirit of the project. What exactly is the point of tiering if everything with an OHKO move can just X-Accuracy + X-Speed for the win?

And yeah, Charmander trolls Brock due to them lacking Rock moves and appropriate special to eat multiple embers.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 8:10:40 AM   #8
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Yeah charmander can definitely get past Brock pretty easily. Bulbasaur can beat Brock a soon as it learns leech seed. I don't see how charmander efficiently gets past Misty though.

Also too isn't charmander inefficient at dealing with the hikers in Mt. Moon? I can't remember if they're all dodgeable or not, I know at least one is though.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 8:55:19 AM   #9
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Now with three topics on the subject, I wonder if we will ever come to a conclusion. After all, it's a game with a finite amount of 'mons, moves and TMs, and the conditions are exactly the same for every play-through.

I predict that we'll finally have come to an agreement after four or five topics, then they will all sink to the bottom of Orange Islands and stay forgotten for two months before some forgetful user decides to begin anew. Cue four more topics.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 9:16:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll View Post
Now with three topics on the subject, I wonder if we will ever come to a conclusion. After all, it's a game with a finite amount of 'mons, moves and TMs, and the conditions are exactly the same for every play-through.

I predict that we'll finally have come to an agreement after four or five topics, then they will all sink to the bottom of Orange Islands and stay forgotten for two months before some forgetful user decides to begin anew. Cue four more topics.
Consider that things like FE tierlists take ages to complete as well, I don't see why this won't be the same for Pokemon. After all, some derp may find some innovative new way to use Ponyta or something that makes it instant High.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 2:22:27 PM   #11
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I think most of the changes occur (or fail to occur but get support anyway) as a result of new thinking rather than new experience. e.g. insisting on a particular play style such as speedrunning, or giving more or less value to finite resources like TMs, stressing gym performance over mook combat and so forth. Tier debates can go ad nauseam and usually end when people have no interest in continuing them, sometimes just tired of each other rather than feeling that the reached conclusions and decisions have been set in stone. The social aspect seems very well pronounced to me.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 4:36:01 PM   #12
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There will never be a magical moment where everyone participating in this project will come to an absolute consensus and there will never be a moment where literally everyone will state that the tier list is perfect and complete. As Lucchini says, these projects usually end when people lose interest in discussing them anymore, which usually occcurs due to fatigue. People just get sick and tired of reading the same arguments over and over, and the project just fades out. This has actually occurred before (to smaller extents) with this project, where people stop posting for a week or so until someone starts a new discussion. This project has never truely died out before though.

I have to point out that the original goal of this project was to develop a tier list for the main site, and there has to be a point where I put my foot down and just say "I'm going to use the list we have now for the official tier list". This project has already been going on for 9 months now and it has to end eventually, and it will get ridiculous if I keep changing things back and forth. As I said before, I could very well just take the list we have now and make that into the guide, and when you think about anyone playing RB could look at the Top tier we have now and make a team like this:

Starter
Nidoking/queen
Alakazam/Kadabra
Dugtrio
Articuno/Seel (Seel if you don't pick Squirtle)
Zapdos

and that would be a pretty good team for beating the game efficiently.

I still want to try and set the positions of each pokemon in stone though, which is what I'm trying to do with my QC idea from my other post. Even though it will be almost impossible to have the entire community agree with a point of view for some pokemon, we still have to have an actual point of view set in stone that we can actually agree or disagree with!
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 5:30:24 PM   #13
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Does anyone else think it might make things interesting if Pokemon within the same tier are sorted according to their efficiency as opposed to being listed alphabetically?

And I always thought what distinguished Smogon's in-game tier lists from those found elsewhere is the work people put into write-ups. That surely gives people stuff to do.

On topic of making new discoveries, for how long have people been using Seel with awareness of its efficiency contributions? I've been playing RBY for ages (sometimes frequently, sometimes barely any at all) and I needed to follow our discussions here to become aware of its prowess. It's still really sticking out for me, appearing in the top tier alongside starters, Pokemon with huge availability and destructive power and legendaries.
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Old Mar 4th, 2013, 8:57:14 PM   #14
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What Zowayix says about Charmander is true. Everyone thinks he's crappy in early-game and makes up for it later, when really the reverse is true.

Basically: whatever time Bulbasaur saves against Brock by fighting him early with Leech Seed, he loses on Route 3. Doesn't matter if you beat Brock at level 6; to beat Route 3 at a reasonable speed you need to be a certain level, and if you aren't there you'll be in for some long battles/grinding and in the end you haven't saved much time. And even when Bulbasaur isn't underleveled Charmander's a lot stronger.

Mt. Moon is also heavily to Charmander's advantage. Charmander does lose turns here and there against Geodude (there is one optional Hiker plus the wild ones), but Bulbasaur straight-up cannot fight wild Zubat and is a lot slower against every other trainer.

If we move Charmander to high tier (which I wouldn't object to) it'll be because he doesn't cut it in mid- and late-game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini View Post
On topic of making new discoveries, for how long have people been using Seel with awareness of its efficiency contributions
SAILOR the traded Seel is the best late-game water. The extra experience gives it the strongest Surf in the game (besides maybe Tentacruel? By the Elite Four SAILOR should be stronger) and the Ice STAB is dandy.

Whether it belongs in top tier probably depends on how important you think late-game waters are in general.

Last edited by Longfellow; Mar 4th, 2013 at 11:06:21 PM.
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Old Mar 5th, 2013, 4:40:17 PM   #15
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Ok so now I'm going to try to finalise the tier positions. I'm not sure now successful this will be (depends on how many people are interested in participating) but we'll see.


The aim here is to make it clear to me where everyone stands on each Pokemon's position, and ideally have these positions set in stone once and for all. This is how it's going to work: I'm going to post a few entries here, and you guys comment on them. You should be answering these questions:
  • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
  • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).


The Pokemon first up will be:
  • Abra
Abra
  • Articuno
Articuno
  • Bulbasaur (RB)
Bulbasaur (RB)
  • Charmander (RB)
Charmander (RB)
  • Diglett
Diglett


Address whichever Pokemon you like. I'm expecting Abra, Articuno and Diglett will be fairly straight forward, but Bulbasaur and Charmander seem to be a bit more controversial based on comments in the last thread. I actually curious about just where people stand.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


A few notes:
  • Assuming this one goes well, I plan on doing this for every entry, and I'm simply going down the list by tier, and in alphabetical order. This will explain why I picked the Pokemon I picked this time and in the future. This may seem pointless because I'm sure many of you will think that some Pokemon are fine in the tiers they are in and don't need discussion, but I wanted to avoid any subjectivity involved in me just cherry picking analyses that I personally don't like/agree with. This system also ensures that every Pokemon gets discussed as there are some Pokemon that haven't really been talked about at all (such as many of the Pokemon in Low tier, probably because they haven't been used by as many people).
  • In general, I want to see majority consensus before I move something. In situations where there appears to be an equal split in opinion and the arguments on both sides are solid, I would be more inclined to leave the Pokemon in the tier it is currently in simply out of convenience (I won't go so far as to make it an absolute rule however). That may sound unfair but in the end I have to make a decision. Otherwise, no decision will be made and this whole thing will be completely pointless.
  • Similarly, if I only get a small number of opinions (or even no opinions) on things then I'm probably not going to move anything either.
Ideally, once a decision is made here, it will be final, although I can't stop people discussing the Pokemon even after it's finalised if they wish to continue. I don't want to say that a Pokemon will never move ever again after a decision is made here, but I would only want it to happen if, say, many of the people who stated that a Pokemon shouldn't be moved in the past somehow changed their minds later on (like in the unlikely event that someone discovers some new way to use a Pokemon that makes it better).

I have no idea how long I will leave this up for discussion, but I guess it'll depend on how much discussion is going on. So yeah, fell free to voice your opinion if you wish. It'll help me out a lot.

If you have any questions just ask. Remember, this is the first time I'm doing this so there may be some things I've overlooked.
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Old Mar 5th, 2013, 7:34:34 PM   #16
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ABRA:
- "Availability: This is Abra's only flaw."
I would change that to Abra's BIGGEST flaw, it has other issues (such as needing babying).
- "Its only weakness is to Bug-type attacks, most of which are wielded either by Pokemon who are either weak to Psychic-type attacks or weak overall, with the only exception being Jolteon."
I would take that Jolteon part out, since it has Low Base Attack anyway.
-"Sabrina: Alakazam can defeat all of Sabrina's Pokemon in Red and Blue with the exception of her Alakazam provided it knows Seismic Toss. Her Alakazam (in all games) in addition to her Kadabra in Yellow can Recover more HP than Seismic Toss inflicts, causing a stalemate between the two."
I'd also mention Sabrina's Pokemon have infinite PP, helping her in the stalemate.
-"--Rival: As with Sabrina, Alakazam vs. Alakazam would result in a stalemate. The other Pokemon Alakazam would have trouble with would be Gyarados, Arcanine, Charizard, and Jolteon."
How well did it fair against Exeggutor?

DIGLET:
- I would probably make the match-ups in the same format as every other Pokemon has it.

I wrote Articuno, Bulbasaur, and Charmander, so I wont comment on those.
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Old Mar 6th, 2013, 3:05:08 AM   #17
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I find this mention of a Kazam duel "stalemate" hard to believe. Why would you put Seismic Toss on Zam in-game? This isn't competitive. Just keep using Psychic until the special drops come - the AI is also too dumb to recover at the correct time sometimes. Since Sabrina's own Kazam in RB has Psybeam, it's clear who's winning there. I did it with an underlevelled Starmie once, so a trained Zam would do even better.
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Old Mar 6th, 2013, 3:29:11 AM   #18
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Sabrina's Alakazam in Yellow has Psychic, not too mention its at Level 50. I agree that Zam shouldn't have a problem with R&B Sabrina.
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Old Mar 6th, 2013, 6:49:18 AM   #19
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Zam's Special is still the highest in the game, barring the unobtainable Mewtwo. This makes Alakazam one of the best guys to face down that L50 Alakazam, especially when you factor in stat EXP. His weakness is quite literally a non-issue because it is literally possible to just use your two hands to count how many Pokemon in the game can use Bug moves(Beedrill, Zubat, Golbat, Paras, Parasect, Venonat, Venomoth, Jolteon), and just one if you don't count NFEs. Of these, the only one that poses any form of threat to Zam is Jolteon (Beedrill, Golbat and Venomoth are slower and die to Psychic, Parasect is fucking Parasect aka the guy with 3 4x weaknesses), which is seen on only 1 trainer in the entire game (although you do fight him three times with the Jolteon).

There really isn't much of a stalemate since Psychic has a 30% chance of lowering Special, and if your Alakazam does get its Special dropped you can just switch out and switch back in to nullify the drop.

No comments on the others (Diglett is a badass)
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The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health!
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Old Mar 6th, 2013, 2:10:39 PM   #20
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General suggestions:

We should take out the Bruno fight (as it's trivial to beat him with any team with a semblance of balance) and throw in Cerulean Rival and possibly Silph Rival/Viridian Rival 2, which are much more important boss fights.

Also when rewriting the "Type" section, I propose we only discuss types that are in-game and important, rather than hypothetical ones. For example, we can just cut the part about Water/Rocks in Articuno's analysis as there are no Water/Rock enemies in RBY.

Some of the analyses should be proofread.

Abra


Articuno: Looks good (though needs a copyedit).

Bulbasaur


Charmander


Diglett: Also good (should also be copyedited).
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Old Mar 7th, 2013, 5:31:02 AM   #21
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There's been some good suggestions here which I'll address later. For now, I'll comment on actual tiering.

So far, no one has expressed disagreement with Abra, Articuno and Diglett being in Top, so they will probably stay there.

I would like for people who believe Bulbasaur and Charmander should be in Top tier to address these points:

Quote:
Bulbasaur doesn't spend the whole game at level 30+, so its mediocre power with Vine Whip + maybe Normal move (plus the low PP) should be mentioned.

We're coming to one of the problems with our format of analysis. Bulbasaur has this awful stretch from Route 3 to Nugget Bridge that goes totally unmentioned. It struggles in every rival battle, which also mostly go unmentioned (Grass is weak against 3 of Rival's Pokémon, Bulbasaur has no advantage against Gyarados, and Kadabra can kill it). It is also decidedly mediocre until it reaches level 30 and learns Razor Leaf. Relying on Vine Whip's 40 BP and 10 PP and weakness against the most common type is bad.

Bulbasaur does pick it up a bit by endgame and has some very reasonable boss matchups throughout the game—Bulbasaur is the best Pokémon against Misty, the ambiguous matchup against Lorelei is still better than most Pokémon, and beating Lance is gravy). Still, I think its weaknesses are too severe for Bulbasaur to be top tier. I'd put it in high and would entertain discussion of putting it in mid too.
Quote:
Just like with Bulbasaur, Charmander doesn't know Slash all game long and the Dig TM is highly contested. Playing through mid-game with Ember and maybe Mega Punch is better than Bulbasaur, but still not good.

I'm also in the camp of booting Charmander to high tier. He's like Growlithe plus.
I don't think anyone can deny that at least some of these points are valid, so clearly those who argue for Top tier think that Bulbasaur and Charmander have attributes that are so amazing that they cancel out enough of their weaknesses to put them in Top tier (I have a feeling that I'll be able to predict what these people will say in favour of Bulbasaur). I want people to state specifically why these pokemon should be Top tier and why their flaws aren't enough to knock them out of Top tier.

Sorry if this sounds rude or anything but it will allow me to make the best decision I can about this.
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Old Mar 7th, 2013, 9:39:41 AM   #22
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Now that I can post here without morally obligating myself to get to updating...

If we are going solely off the notion of a decently sized team with like 3-6 mons, then Bulbasaur is clearly High at best. The only thing that really makes it stand out (imo) is that it's really good against Misty. The only way to stop it from being relatively bad until Razor Leaf is the Body Slam TM, which I don't think is highly contested but it doesn't come for completely free either.

As for Charmander, he has a lot of the same problem but Scratch is a lot better than Tackle, and Ember is a lot better than Vine Whip. There are also more opportunities for Charmander/Charmeleon to learn moves that give it some oomph (Body Slam, Dig and Mega Punch/Mega Kick all make it pretty good), and it's very reasonable to say he's entitled to at least one of these in any given team. That said, Charmander has relatively bad important gym matchups when it's on an actual team.

Quote:
We should take out the Bruno fight (as it's trivial to beat him with any team with a semblance of balance) and throw in Cerulean Rival and possibly Silph Rival/Viridian Rival 2, which are much more important boss fights.
I'm fine with this. Well, "taking Bruno's fight out" not so much as emphasizing that it doesn't hold much weight. Here's a list of all the major battles, and how much weight should be given to them in my opinion:

Rival 1 (Oak's Lab): lol
Rival 2 (West of Viridian): Optional, so lol
Brock: This fight only really matters for the starters, and for things you can catch before then for playthroughs with Charmander. I think the only Pokemon that can reasonably get credit for this fight are starters, Nidorans, and Mankey. Caterpie, maybe.
Misty: One of the more important battles.

Rival 3 (Nugget Bridge): Pretty important, other than the Abra.
Rival 4 (SS Anne): Pretty important.

Lt. Surge: I think that there's not much to be gained or lost here. If the Pokemon being discussed is bad against Surge, you can just catch a Diglett and win. If the Pokemon being discussed is good against Surge, well, you could have caught a Diglett so what does it matter? This is the only Gym where I think this situation applies because of how easy and quick it is to find Diglett, and how good Diglett is compared to everything else.

Rival 5 (Pokemon Tower): Pretty important.

Erika: Has Surge syndrome since the Fly HM is nearby along with wild Doduo and Spearow, but to a lesser extent. Grass is so terrible that I think this fight shouldn't have much weight in general.
Koga: In RB he is just so horrendous that there's just nothing to be gained here. In Y, he's more powerful on paper, but Venonat is also weak to a lot of stuff, so not completely sure.

Rival 6: Pretty important.

Sabrina: I think Sabrina deserves a reasonable amount of credit, a little moreso in Y than in RB. That said, I do see an awful lot of mention of Recover stalemates...I have never had this happen, really, and I don't think you will ever run out of PP vs a Gym leader like that unless you are trying to make it so. Not saying I tested the heck out of this, but Recover looping is your last problem against Alakazam. Even if you somehow get stuck this way, there's always the Toxic TM.
Blaine: Surf. Nothing to be gained here. It sucks if you can't learn it and you have to sit this fight out, but the problem is more that your Pokemon just doesn't get EXP out of this gym rather than "oh no what will I do vs the big bad Fire Pokemon?"
Giovanni: Honestly, Surf again? It's kinda painful to say this since there seem to be very few gyms actually worth their weight here.

Rival 7: I think this one isn't that important, because basically everything other than his starter and Alakazam is a joke and/or unevolved.

Lorelei: Fairly important.
Bruno: Super easy, almost doesn't matter.
Agatha: Fairly important. Pretty much every entry is "she doesn't do much but status is annoying" right now which is probably accurate.
Lance: Fairly important.
Rival 8: omg big batol
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Old Mar 7th, 2013, 11:53:10 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah View Post
If we are going solely off the notion of a decently sized team with like 3-6 mons, then Bulbasaur is clearly High at best. The only thing that really makes it stand out (imo) is that it's really good against Misty. The only way to stop it from being relatively bad until Razor Leaf is the Body Slam TM, which I don't think is highly contested but it doesn't come for completely free either.

As for Charmander, he has a lot of the same problem but Scratch is a lot better than Tackle, and Ember is a lot better than Vine Whip. There are also more opportunities for Charmander/Charmeleon to learn moves that give it some oomph (Body Slam, Dig and Mega Punch/Mega Kick all make it pretty good), and it's very reasonable to say he's entitled to at least one of these in any given team. That said, Charmander has relatively bad important gym matchups when it's on an actual team.
I'm fine for Bulbasaur being High tier, but seeing as we all agree Charmander has similar problems, then he should get demoted as well.

Quote:
I'm fine with this. Well, "taking Bruno's fight out" not so much as emphasizing that it doesn't hold much weight. Here's a list of all the major battles, and how much weight should be given to them in my opinion:l
You forgot the Giovanni battles, and another thing is Nidoran/Caterpie/Mankey are only helpful in Yellow for Brock. RB Nidoran gets Double Kick in his 40s, Mankey is post-Brock in RB, and Caterpie gets Confusion later on in RB.

Also my Starmie was actually PP stalled by Sabrina's Alakazam in Yellow.
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Old Mar 7th, 2013, 1:30:09 PM   #24
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Yeah, I agree with pretty much the whole post. (I was replying to Mekkah but I also agree with the above post)

Rival 7 has Gyarados though (if you didn't pick Charmander). And level 50 Alakazam is a pretty big deal IMO.

I'm beginning to wonder whether Gyarados's absence if you pick Charmander is a bigger deal than we thought before. Dunno, I'd still put Charmander in high, but I'll wait for everyone else to weigh in.

Maybe the first Giovanni battle merits mentioning. I think the other one is pretty easy.

RB NidoranM can beat Brock with a little help (basically another Pokémon to switch out to to reset Screeches/maybe eat a Bide or two).
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Old Mar 8th, 2013, 6:08:09 AM   #25
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I'm beginning to wonder whether Gyarados's absence if you pick Charmander is a bigger deal than we thought before. Dunno, I'd still put Charmander in high, but I'll wait for everyone else to weigh in.
Been looking around, and I think Gyarados might actually be a complete dick if you didn't grab Charmander (which replaces Gyara with Blastoise). Gyarados, for reasons unknown, learns Dragon Rage and Hydro Pump at L1 in RB, and if given the opportunity, it can shit all over your team in the Pokemon Tower battle.

I'm honestly neutral as to Charmander's placing (most of my Gen1 experience comes from playing Yellow), so I don't really have much to say on Charmander (Slash is great lategame but it doesn't exist until L33 and well, Dig competition).

RB Nidoran can contribute Leers to Brock, perhaps? That's to the extent of its contribution: Tackle/Horn Attack is laughable damage at normal defense. I could pull the Poison Sting argument, but Kakuna pulls that off better and at a lower level too.

Yellow Koga's biggest issue is likely Psychic Venomoth and the Sleep Powder Venonats: although anything with Fly/Ember/Abra shits all over the gym anyway (Alakazam only needs to fear like what, Leech Life?)
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