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Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by atsync, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Doduo: Make the match-up list in the same format as the other anaylsis.

    Hitmonlee: I'd move it down a tier. They forgot to mention that Yellow Koga has Psychic on of his Pokes (I know this from when I tested Machamp). Also, in RB it cans et up on Blaine's joke Pokemon, but in Yellow he leads with Ninetails - and its not like Hitmonlee has the bulk to take a Naruto's Flamethrower.

    Gengar: I'd probably remove the Saffron ROckets battle as that isn't on the other anaylsis, and we are trying to stay consistent. Although, I suppose you could mention somewhere that Gastly is immune to all of the Fighting Dojo, making it easy for ihm to grind there and catch up with the rest of your team (especially if you gave him Psychic).

    Farfetch'd: More focus on it being a HM Slave, I'd probably move it down a tier too for the same reasoning Chou gave.

    Will get around to responding to what other people have been saying later on day.
  2. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I think Farfetch'd is fine in high, as long as strong emphasis is put on its HM slave prowess.

    If ranked purely as a battler (as the current analysis almost does), Farfetch'd barely makes the mid-tier honestly, even considering all its "perks".

    Even if you use it as a Primary battler, Farfetch'd has so little in the way of coverage moves, it can easily fit both of its HM moves in its set: Cut / Fly / Double Edge / SD for instance. Or Cut / Fly / Slash / Agility
  3. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Don't have time for a long post (on phone).

    Hitmonlee- bad at some things but amazing at others. In RB, probably the best at fighting Lorelei. I wanna make a case for it but I'll wait till I have computer.

    Farfetch'd- as good as Doduo. Slower but stronger Normals, access to Swords Dance. Trust me, outsider bonus makes Farfetch'd stronger than Fearow always and often stronger than Dodrio, very similar when not. High even without Cut, though admittedly not up there with Clefable or Jynx.

    Clefable- it is "as TM reliable" as Gastly in that it really likes TMs, but can use so many more of them. I actually think Clefable is similar to Nidoking and Nidoqueen in strength and would entertain it in Top.
  4. Garud

    Garud

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    I'm at work right now, so I can't access a computer, but I would like to butt in and say that Hitmonlee deserves its spot in high. Fighting/normal means that he has decent move variety and can hit many pokes at least neutrally. And rockets may have a ton of poisons, but Zubat and Ekans don't like body slam.

    He has many other pluses as well. Can't really be too detailed right now though.
  5. Mekkah

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    Slash comes as late as L39. It is its move of choice once it gets it, but until then Swords Dance is its best bet.

    As someone who pushed for putting less emphasis on HM slaving, I completely disagree. Being able to use HM moves, especially ones that are actually bad in battling, is almost completely useless in the context of a tier list. If you didn't have Farfetch'd to Cut bushes, you'd just have a L10 Bellsprout do it. After Rock Tunnel, Cut is nearly useless anyway, not at all required to advance through the game.

    Farfetch'd net addition of utility to your team is not Fly + Cut. It's the ability to Fly + Cut without you needing to put those moves on your other Pokemon. Since you probably have anywhere between 1 and 3 slots for random low level slaves, that's very little net gain.

    Does that mean Farfetch'd needs to go down to Mid? Maybe. But I'd rather see that than to give a bunch of credit for learning HMs. Looking at its likely company in Mid tier, it might fit better there after all.

    This is definitely useless. Of all the move options to put on Clefable, you're going with the one that doesn't involve KOing whatever is in the way?
  6. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    So in the last thread we were talking a bit about Pokémon like Flareon. Flareon runs off nothing but Body Slam (or Swift or Double-Edge) for most of the game and is rated middle-tier despite the TM reliance and lack of coverage. We consider strong Normal moves very useful in mid-game, especially running off high attack or STAB.

    Clefable, Hitmonlee, and Farfetch'd each happen to have better access to Normal moves than Flareon and, because variously of their stats, level of capture, exp. rates, and STAB, they each swing at least as hard as Flareon does. That isn't by itself, of course, reason to put any of these Pokémon in high. But think of it as a solid mid-tier baseline.

    Farfetch'd = Flareon + more powerful + Fly + Swords Dance + Slash at level 39 adding immense power
    Hitmonlee = Flareon + faster + flimsier + larger choice of Normal TMs + extra power once he learns Hi/Jump Kick + super-effective against all those mid-game Normals and Rocks + Meditate + whups Lorelei even harder than Zapdos
    Clefable = Flareon + larger choice of Normal TMs, including Tri Attack which is wanted by practically no other Pokémon + Nidoking's cupboard of elemental TMs + Nidoking's special stat plus ten + access to TM Psychic which Nidoking doesn't learn and which is super-effective against half the game and not even that high-demand + why isn't Clefable top tier yet

    Also, I'll throw in Dodrio for comparison with Farfetch'd.

    Dodrio = Flareon + significantly more power starting level 31 + Fly + faster + totally sweet access to TM Tri Attack
  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I didn't use Hitmonlee, but I did use Machamp in Yellow along side Flareon. And I can tell you the lack of fighting type gave Flareon the advantage.

    Erika: Flareon resists Grass, making it easier for him
    Koga: Flareon isn't weak to Psychic
    Sabrina: See above
    Blaine: Flareon resists Fire Blast, and cant be burned
    GIovanni: Fighting does better
    Lorelei: Figthing does better, although Machamp sucked here due to his low speed and couldn't take repeated hits. I'd imagine Hitmonlee could do it better due his speed.
    Bruno: I'd probably give this to fighting
    Agatha: Flareon can at least hit Gengar with Fire Spin, lol
    Lance: Both suck
  8. atsync

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    Nothing's finalised, but I've gone over what has been said so far about tiering and have tried to draw some conclusions:

    Yellow Charmander

    So far the consensus seems to be to leave this in High, and to merge it with RB Charmander. So I guess when everything is finalised, I'll delete my Yellow Charmander entry, change "RB Charmander" to simply "Charmander", and note that Yellow information needs to be added to this analysis in the to-do list.

    Doduo

    So far no one has really objected to this being in High, so this will probably stay as is.

    Gastly

    It seems that some people want this to go down to Mid, and I think this is fair. It is very TM reliant but only learns a select few TMs (unlike things like Nidoran and Clefairy), although it is awesome if it gets these TMs. That's a description that fits many of the Pokemon we have in Mid, so Gastly seems like a good edition there.

    Hitmonlee

    For a while this looked like it was going to be Mid, but now some users want to try and defend it in High. I know when I used it I was sort of borderline about it.

    I really like how you can just wander into Saffron and grab this, and you don't have to grind it at all because it is already at or above your team's level. Double Kick/Rolling Kick are acceptable STABs early on, and Jump Kick/Hi Jump Kick are far better than any of the other fighting moves in the game. It also likes Body Slam, and if that's not available then you can just buy Mega Punch or Mega Kick from the Celadon Department Store. Normal moves help against most Fighting resistant Pokemon. If you want to wait for Strength, then Meditate (which is a default move) can be used to get around Fighting resistant stuff, although you have to be careful about what you set up on because of Hitmonlee's poor bulk. Seismic Toss can be thrown in if you want to hit Ghosts, although it isn't necessary. It's actually pretty TM efficient, although it doesn't learn anything outside of Fighting+Normal. It packs great power and it's fast, and Fighting STAB is useful mid-game in some respects.

    I did hate how frail it was though; it probably has the worst overall defences of all the fully evolved Pokemon in the game. There were a few times where my Fighting STAB missed and I was KOed because of it. Same if I failed to KO. It's match-ups aren't all that crash hot either, especially in Yellow (RB at least gives you weak Pokemon like Blaine's Growlithe to set up on). The advantage against Lorelei is great, although she's just one trainer.

    Clefairy

    I guess most agree that this should be at least High. I also agree, since it is a very good alternative to the Nidorans if you want something to fill the "TM-Encyclopaedia" role for your team. So for now it will probably stay there.

    Having used it recently, I'm struggling to come up with reasons why this shouldn't be Top though, especially if the Nidorans are in Top. I mean, I guess there is the fact that it's rarer than most Pokemon, but it's not that rare on the lower levels of Mt. Moon, and it comes at a good level. Even if you get an underleveled one, it grinds so quickly that it will catch up pretty easily, and I honestly think that grinding Clefairy is even easier than grinding either of the Nidorans (just teach it Water Gun and watch it destory all the wild Geodudes). And then it has early STAB Mega Punch with Water Gun for Rock types, which is stronger that Nidoking and Nidoqueen at that point. The Nidos gain an advantage when they get Earthquake, which is more powerful than any of Clefable's STABs, although Clefable retains its Special advantage (85 vs. 75).

    Can anyone give reasons why it shouldn't be Top?

    Farfetch'd

    Yeah I honestly don't know what to do with this now since there are conflicting opinions. I guess a drop to Mid is the "safest" choice in this scenario...

    I wish I had time to test, just to see how Farfetch'd compares to other birds. I can only go by this:

    Assuming this is actually right, I guess Mid vs. High comes down to whether that combination of low Speed and Bulk bothers you (obviously Farfetch'd isn't really that much frailer than the other birds but those guys are much faster so it isn't as costly to them... in theory). I remember having a huge issue with Farfetch'd in Yellow for this reason, but RB Farfetch'd is a different thing altogether.

    I'll think about it more. Meanwhile, I'd encourage you guys to keep discussing stuff. It's fun to read.
  9. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Actually, Clefable has one BIG advantage over Nidoking/queen. It isn't weak to Water and Psychic, meaning it performs better against Misty's Starmie and Sabrina's Alakazam, probably the two toughest gyms.

    I accept with Clefable on top, actually. Funny how this thing was low tier a while back, and now we considering putting it on top.

    Also, we should wait to hear Garud's input before move Hitmonlee down. Since he believes it should stay High.
  10. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Hemp Man: I wonder how different our perceptions are because of version differences in RB and Y. But yeah, Fire is a better defensive type than Fighting. atsync's account of Hitmonlee is very accurate for RB.

    I wouldn't put up a terrible fuss if he gets booted, but I'm still on the side of Hitmonlee in high (though on the lower end of the tier, definitely worse than like Jynx and Mr. Mime).

    I said in the last thread that Farfetch'd was better than Doduo, which I don't really believe now. But they're close. Comparable power (equal before Dodrio, in Dodrio's favor before Slash, in Farfetch'd's favor afterwards). Farfetch'd gets Swords Dance, Dodrio gets better speed and Tri Attack. Are Dodrio's advantages really significantly greater than Farfetch'd's? I think you could argue one way or the other, but they're definitely more similar than different.

    Yeah, I really can't think of a good reason Clefairy doesn't belong with Nidoking and Nidoqueen in top tier. It is funny how that happens.
  11. Garud

    Garud

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    All this talk of moving Clefairy up, maybe someone should playtest it to be sure.

    In regards to Hitmonlee, the thing is an absolute wrecking ball. It basically joins your team at a very appropriate level, comes with a boosting move and needs very few TMs. Fighting/Normal hits everything except the Ghosts for neutral damage. While it appreciates Body Slam, it can really do wonders with Mega Punch (wat) or Mega Kick.
    But here's where things are good for Hitmonlee. His attack is almost unmatched at that point in the game, hitting very hard. In addition, there are a ton of pokemon in various areas he can grind on or take advantage of. Once you get him, teach him body slam and take him down to the Celadon Game Corner and watch him wreck the place. Anything that isn't a poison and/or flying type won't like taking a Fighting-type move, and the rest don't appreciate those high-power normal moves. Zubat doesn't have spectacular defence, so despite quad-resisting Fighting-type moves, he can't take a Mega-Punch. The plethora of Rock and Normal pokemon allow Hitmonlee to level up easy, and from there he can pretty much meet any challenge he needs to. While he doesn't come into battles with pure type advantage, he can take on routes by himself, provided he can hit something neutrally.
    It's not fair to draw comparisons with Machamp on this though. Submission is an awful move to rely on due to the recoil, the Jump Kicks are much better, with higher accuracy and the Higher version having greater base power. Rolling Kick provides great STAB early on, and flows on well towards his later moves. In addition, Hitmonlee is much faster than Machamp, meaning he often does not have to take a hit because he OHKOs often.

    His cons are why he isn't top though. Being unable to hit Ghosts without Seismic Toss isn't a great thing, and Fighting-type STAB does not hit a whole lot SE late-game until the E4. His frailty is also a problem as his power isn't quite on the level of Alakazam's, meaning it can be a factor occasionally when something survives the first move. In addition, he occasionally needs to set up on weaker opponents, but this is not often and only against Gym Leaders really.

    All that being said, Hitmonlee is great. If you don't believe me, give him a try.
  12. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Hitmonlee-- no way it's high. It's STAB is all but useless-- way too many flying / poison / psychic opponents, and there's basically zero reason to take on Rock-types with a physical attacker-- especially since at this point your team is filled with powerful Special attacks. Its Normal Attacks are weaker than Raticate's, and its defenses and Speed are abysmal. It's outclassed in every way possible by the Ground-type you should already have on your team. There's literally no reason to use this except that it's at a high level, but come on-- this is the same point in the game that you get access to Snorlax. .______. Enough said.

    Clefable-- Gyarados that levels up faster and lacks Water STAB. Sure, I could see it in top, but as others have mentioned, someone should play test it again.

    Gengar-- is a lot better than any of the Pokemon in mid.

    Bellsprout
    Bulbasaur (Y)
    Drowzee
    Electabuzz
    Flareon
    Geodude
    Goldeen
    Horsea
    Kabuto
    Magikarp
    Magnemite
    Mankey
    Meowth
    Oddish
    Pikachu (RB)
    Pikachu (Y)
    Poliwag
    Psyduck
    Rattata
    Slowpoke
    Spearow
    Voltorb

    There's not a single Pokemon on this list that evolves to its final form as efficiently, has as crazy stats when fully evolved, or is anywhere near as destructive as Gengar. Literally, the only thing wrong with Gengar is that it needs TMs. And you want to put Clefable in top???

    Haunter requires ZERO babying (unlike most of the mid-tier Pokes), and doesn't come underleveled. Haunter is like a pack of instant noodles-- Pour in the hot water (a trade + TMs you already have) and you are instantly have what is now one of the best, if not THE best Pokemon on your team. I don't think that's mid-tier material.

    If you weren't trying to use Farfetch'd as a serious battler, why WOULDN'T you use it though? I personally don't like having teams cluttered full of lame HM slaves and having to shuffle between HM slaves and think about which moves I'll need. Just having Cut on your Fly slave (who you want to keep on the team the most) is just always nice, convenient and time saving. HM slave farfetch'd is one of the most convenient Pokemon in the game-- going into a bush to catch extra HM slaves is annoying. Consolidating HM moves is nice and convenient. And Farfetch'd is placed perfectly for its role here-- imo, it's almost obvious that the developers put Farfetch'd here in part so it could be used for this purpose.
  13. Garud

    Garud

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    In RBY, Base 87 Speed is actually decent, and Base 120 attack is phenomenal. In addition, after Stat Exp is taken into account, we can assume that Hitmonlee is fast enough to outspeed pretty much any Base 90 speed pokemon. And it's weird you compared him to Snorlax whose Speed is base 30 and has a lower attack at Base 110. Snorlax has to keep taking hits, Hitmonlee doesn't.

    Flying types? Which Flying type resists Fighting moves and doesn't have pitiful defence? The flying-types that resist fighting are few and far between, pokemon like Gyarados and Dragonite. The others are the Zubats which die to Swift/Strength.

    And the comparison to Ground types here is meaningless, not everyone carries a ground type in the game. I know I rarely did, even in later games. But even if you were to go that route, which pokemon outclasses it? You have those that are Top-tiers (Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Dugtrio). Sandlash, Marowak? Both of them are ineffective and are awful (their typing is better, but their stats are atrocious). All that's left is the Rock/Ground types. Hitmonlee can take Special hits like a wet paper bag, but at least it can outspeed and KO Grass, Ice and Water types whereas they can't.

    And think about the Psychic opponents. The significant ones that are around your level will give you trouble, sure. But that's only your Rival and Sabrina really. Everything else will be carrying slower pokemon, so they aren't THAT much trouble.

    He's better than you think, if you doubt me, give him a try.
  14. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I haven't done a hitmonlee playthrough, but I can tell he'd be good simply because in-game anything fast that hits hard is good.

    Comparing him to things like snorlax and diglett doesn't make sense in the context of this tier list. If we're gonna say X is bad because Y is better, then pretty much every pokemon in the game is bad compared to the most efficent solo-runner (which I believe is squirtle).

    The playthroughs this tier list accommodates entail having 3-4 pokemon around the level of the current gym leader, which are innefficient to begin with.

    With regards to hitmonlee, instead of saying he's bad because X is better, a better idea is to compare him to the pokemon in the tiers he's being considered for.
  15. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Golbat 4x resists Fighting and is probably the most abundant flying-type in the game.
    Snorlax is phenomenal, STAB Strength and Body Slam are stupidly good, you can dump Surf, Amnesia shenanigans, gets access to Normal/Water, aka OP, etc blah. On the other hand, I don't want having to switch out Hitmonlee every battle because he falls flat against Golbat and can't do anything to Koffing or Grimer (unstab mega punch is so strong).

    BTW Yellow Farfetch'd is pretty bad imo since one of the main appeals to DUX is the boosted EXP that allows it to stay relevant compared to Fearow/Dodrio.

    Gengar, I'm still pretty eh. I mean, we did drop Charmander to High because we took out Dig, and Gengar doesn't always have access to Mega Drain, Psychic and Thunderbolt to help its case. Gengar and noodles are different because the hot water is a renewable source while you obviously cannot get more TM21/TM24/TM29s. For Clefairy though, her TMs are not one-off (Mega Punch and Mega Kick can be bought up to the limit of your money). Clefable won't always be getting TM21/24/29 like Gengar, but Clefable doesn't actually suck outside of getting those moves. If we are moving Charmander down to High on the basis that it sucks without Dig, I don't see why we're keeping Gengar in High either given that it sucks without the special TMs.
  16. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I know Nidofamily are pretty much infallible on the RBY tier list but I want to bring up yet again that the only 'free' moves they will ever have that are above decent in damage are Body Slam/Thrash and Surf. Not only that but Dig isn't even an option, no matter how contested it is. No access to STAB until the EQ TM (don't even mention Poison Sting but I know nobody here would do that so...) is kind of a big deal when the rest of the Top Tier at least have something (and usually a really powerful STAB at that). Dugtrio has instant Dig, Squirtle has early Bubblebeam and a free Surf, Abra nukes everything after evolving. Articuno starts with Ice Beam and Zapdos needs to take just one Rare Candy for Thunder, with Drill Peck being a nice second STAB.

    We're questioning Gastly getting the one-time special TMs a lot on the recent pages, and I can see the point of that, but to be frank, I'd rather have Gastly use Thunderbolt, Psychic and/or Mega Drain than Nidoking use Ice Beam, Thunderbolt or Rock Slide (just based on the base stat difference alone).
  17. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Hitmonlee comes before Rocket Hideout and Pokémon Tower whereas Snorlax comes after. Big difference.

    Un-STAB Normals aren't bad when used by an overleveled Pokémon with 120 attack. IIRC, Zubats won't survive Swift or Mega Punch. Golbats will be 2HKOd. Koffing takes two turns and Weezing takes three. But is this worse than other high-tiers?

    Bulbasaur is much worse at all these matchups.
    Charmander is slower against Zubat and can't beat Koffing/Weezing any faster without Dig.
    Doduo and Farfetch'd are of similar strength with their Normal moves (Hitmonlee starts out stronger, the birds end up stronger).
    Mr. Mime can beat them faster with Confusion
    The others depend on one-use TMs to secure those OHKOs on Koffing.

    So Hitmonlee isn't the best against Poison-types but he's within the range of how high tiers do against them.

    Being OHKOd by Psychic-types is annoying, but Hitmonlee can one-shot Kadabra at least.

    Except for Ghosts, Hitmonlee isn't that bad even in his bad matchups.



    It has been awhile since I used Gastly. He is totally unlike Clefairy/Nidoran because they learn a million TMs and can still function without any of them. Gastly can't even reach mid-tier strength unless it has Thunderbolt or Psychic. That said, Thunderbolt and Psychic only have sorta medium demand. I dunno, I can see it going either way.

    Unlike Chou Toshio, I think some mid-tier Pokémon are quite comparable to Gastly. Drowzee in particular. Geodude, Mankey, Rattata.



    Incidentally, Growlithe (R) is not listed in the OP.



    Just for fun, here are some preliminary rankings I was drafting.

    Early-game Pokémon (open)

    Abra
    Diglett

    Clefairy
    Nidoran M
    Nidoran F
    Squirtle (RB)

    Vaporeon
    Mr. Mime
    Doduo
    Farfetch'd (RB)
    Jolteon
    Hitmonlee
    Charmander
    Krabby (BY)?
    Gastly (mid?)
    Bulbasaur (RB) (mid?)

    (no idea where to rank Squirtle (Y) or Snorlax)

    Post-Surf Pokémon (open)

    Zapdos
    Articuno

    Jynx
    Seel
    Staryu
    Tentacool
    Omanyte
    Shellder
  18. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I agree with this.

    Gengar is basically Alakazam without the STAB on Psychic, but his typing gives him a few advantages. He basically walls Erika, Saffron Fighting Gym, Team Rocket, etc. so its not hard to train him. High Special and immunity to Normal means Gengar can actually be tough to take out. For example, besides Aerodactyl's Fly, it can generally handle all of Lance's Yellow team in case your Water type fell prey Thunderbolt/Thunder.

    I think the only Mid Tier Pokemon as good of a Poke of Gengar is Gyarados, but the former doesn't need to be babied for 15 levels.
  19. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    That is true, Gastly has excellent matchups against the Elite Four.
  20. Chou Toshio

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    @Gengar-- Psychic, at the very least, is a move Gengar can almost always be given. Thunder is an actual option too. Gengar may have frail defenses, but it's actually quite durable since it has a huge special and there are barely any physical attacks that are not normal/poison, especially in RB.


    I am not comparing him to Snorlax in function, only in level and availability-- because I said that Hitmonlee's only strength is coming at a high level.

    Zubat/Golbat are everywhere.

    The point I was making was not that Hitmonlee can't beat Zubat, but that its Fighting stab is all but worthless.

    There is absolutely no reason for me to use Hitmonlee to kill Rock-types, because it will never one-shot them, and it is incredibly frail on the physical side (and Special side, remember, this is RB where Hitmonlee has 50/35 Special bulk...). Plus, the team is always littered with Water/Grass/Ice attacks.

    If you establish that Fighting is an overall useless STAB (which it is), than Hitmonlee has to compare itself to fast offensive Normal types-- who even when lacking 120 base ATK, are almost always hitting harder due to STAB. Raticate is statistically superior to Hitmonlee-- never mind Dodrio/Spearow/(Farfetch'd, lol). Raticate hits harder with Normal attacks (only thing that matters since Fighting sucks), it has a "blistering" (compared to hitmonlee) 97 Speed, and it even has better defensive stats (55/60/50 Raticate v. 50/53/35). I'm not going to use a Pokemon that's inferior to Raticate just because it comes at a highish level.

    Raticate: 55 / 81 (+STAB) / 60 / 50 / 97 Raticate superior in every stat.
    Hitmonlee: 50 / 120 / 53 / 35 / 87

    A ground type is almost essential-- you almost need one to beat Surge. Besides, Nidoking/Nidoqueen/Dugtrio are top Pokemon you'd almost always want one-of on your team.

    The fuck are you talking about? SANDSLASH has attrocious stats? And we're comparing to Hitmonlee???

    Sandslash: 75 / 100 / 110 / 55 / 65
    Hitmonlee: 50 / 120 / 53 / 35 / 87

    Please keep in mind that Sandslash's 100 ATK means it hits WAY harder than Hitmonlee considering Slash + Dig/EQ's base power. The only way Hitmonlee can hit harder than Sandslash is with Meditate-- wait, Sandslash gets Swords Dance. Whoops.

    Plus Meditating Hitmonlee-- of course, trying to set up with a Pokemon that has 50 / 53 / 35 defenses makes perfect sense.

    What I said holds-- ground types are going to be on almost every team, and everyone of them hits the same opponents harder, survive better, and have MUCH better coverage because their STAB is actually useful.


    You think I'd be this opposed without having tried? There's no way any player could ignore trying a free level 30+ poke in the middle of the game.

    I say Hitmonlee sucks because he sucks-- I could never find a time to use him where he wasn't repetitive with something better I had, and worst of all--

    he had ZERO advantage match-ups going into the end-game. Seriously, his best match-up is Lorelei, all of whose Pokemon can OHKO him.



    I would much rather see Hitmonlee in Low than High.
  21. Vashimus

    Vashimus

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2013
    Messages:
    156
    I was expecting Jynx to be top, since she has excellent matchups (especially near the end of the game) and levels up fast. Then again, I haven't used her in RBY, only in FRLG, and going from base 95 Special to 115 Special Attack is a pretty big difference. Plus it had a Mild nature.
  22. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Actually if you started with Bulbasaur, Ivysaur has the bulk to take Thunderbolt all day and eventually Body Slam/Vine Whip Raichu to death. Although a Ground type does it much easier and faster.
  23. Longfellow

    Longfellow

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    163
    Raichu is just one Pokémon. Even if having a Ground expedites the fight, it's not necessary.

    Chuo, you act like Raticate is bad. I think it's a prime candidate for high tier, at least one of the better mid tiers. So methinks the fact that Hitmonlee hits as hard as Raticate on the Normal side (probably more initially due to level advantage) is a point in Hitmonlee's favor, not against him.

    Also in RB Hitmonlee has a 100% guaranteed sweep with Meditate + Double Kick against Lorwlei so it's not like the OHKOs back matter. He can also cheese some of RB Lance's Dragons and set up a Meditate on Rival's Rhydon to kill the rest of his team.
  24. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Fighting might not be the best offensive type in RBY but at least it can hit something super-effectively, which normal-types don't cover with their STAB (and it looks like we have none in the top tier, not even Clefairy, so that's reflected here).

    We've also been mentioning Submission as a "free" option quite a bit in the previous thread. Surely, fighting coverage isn't so atrocious at all? Hitmonlee's the one who does it right. Fliers, poisons and ghosts are bad news but you don't really fight all of them. Hell, Venusaur can't face the same types either, requiring Body Slam for decent performance against the former two, though it also exists for longer (grinding necessary for Brock however) and is far better at taking hits (similar speed, Venusaur might be faster with stat experience). You'll be finding enough use for Venusaur if you don't drop him prematurely off your team (like before you have a better Pokemon to deal with rock/grounds or something), so I don't see why you wouldn't do the same for Hitmonlee. As mentioned, setup capability on an actually fast (for in-game standards) Pokemon is somewhat of a unique feature that not many share.

    Who cares if Hitmonlee is slower than Raticate? 87 is more than good enough for in-game. If Kingler is sufficiently fast to do most things, then it's ridiculous that we pick on Lee's speed of all possible mons. Guess what? Alakazam is slower than Electrode, too...

    Both Hitmonlee and Raticate are probably Mid material and of similar value though. Raticate clearly dominates the earlygame.
  25. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    Funny you should mention that, I had the pleasure of using a Clefable who could only function as a TM encyclopedia in my Red Scramblocke. I can say without a doubt that Clefable has an advantage over the Nidos in that it gets Psychic, something that the Nidos would give anything for (so they can hit Poison types SE before Victory Road). It gets more TMs than the Nidorans, and has good bulk to take hits if it needs to. Clefable also has STAB Body Slam, something Nidoqueen would love. A set of

    -Psychic
    -Mega Punch/Body Slam
    -Water Gun/ Bubblebeam
    -Fire Blast/Blizzard

    is a great set for endgame, since your primary Water type is throwing Ice Beams anyway, and Psychic isn't a hotly contested TM (most who would want it already get it). STAB Body Slam is too good to pass up, and Bubblebeam picks off Rock types with ease. It also makes a good counter to Sabrina with its above average Special stat and mound of HP. It can survive a Psychic and hit back with STAB Body Slam for the win.

    I'd definitely say Top is where 'fable belongs.

    EDIT: Hitmonlee is better than Hitmonchan...that's pretty much it. I'd prefer to bring my Raticate instead of replacing it for Hitmonlee, who has to wait a bit for its good STAB (By good, I mean waiting 20 or so levels to get a Base 85 Power move with a chance of missing; Gen 1's HJK had 85 Base Power, not the 130 we're used to)

    I honestly don't see anything interesting about Hitmonlee. I put Muk in Low, and Muk has more options than this thing. Only having Normal and Fighting type moves doesn't help it at all. It's completely walled by any Ghost type, and walled by Lance, Sabrina, dies to Blaine thanks to pisspoor Special, dies to Lorelei because again, pisspoor Special, dies to Bruno's Machamp (the only member of his team of any note), Completely walled by Agatha...

    So to review, 99 percent of the time, Hitmonlee is wasted space. For the final nail, you get him after fighting two Level 37's. You'll probably be around that range yourself, meaning you have to grind Level 30 Hitmonlee six levels to even use him.

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