Moltres: a forgotten bird. Discussion

[Dragontamer]

Serebii Pokedex
Smogon Analysis

In order for an analysis of a pokemon to be complete, you must know its proper niche. As far as stat-up sweeping and Choice Specs sweeping is concerned, Infernape and Heatran take the crop most of the time. However, Moltres's unique movepool and typing might give it some use. This topic hopes to discuss possible niches for this forgotten Pokemon. The Smogon analysis is quite good on Moltres.

Base Stats:
HP:90
Attack: 100
Defense: 90
Sp. Atk: 125
Sp. Def: 85
Speed: 90

4x Weak: Rock
2x Weak: Water, Electric
2x Resist: Fire, Fight, Steel
4x Resist: Grass, Bug
Immune: Ground

Location on speed tier:
Max Speed with Scarf: 459
Max Speed with Nature: 306
0 EVed Speed: 216

Defense Tier: 117 (like Mamoswine)
Sp. Def Tier: 116 (like Machamp)
SkarmCent: 50 to 85
BlissCent: 30 to 52
Both Blaziken and Infernape score 2+ tiers below Moltres in defenses. Of course, the Stealth Rocks Weak hurts Moltres a lot. However, its defenses cannot be underestimated, as it scores even higher than Spiritomb on both Sp. Def and Physical Defense. Keep the Stealth Rocks at bay and you'll have a decent bulky sweeper. Heatran has more defenses than Moltres on both sides.

Max/Max Defense/HP Moltres is equivalent to a Standard Skarm at 85% HP (SkarmCent). Max/Max Sp. Def Moltres is equal to a Standard Blissey at 52% HP. Needless to say, I'm personally quite surprised that Moltres hits such a high defense tier.

Notable Physical Movepool:
* Return
* Aerial Ace / Pluck
* U-Turn
* Fly
* Steel Wing
* Sky Attack
* Double-Edge (FireRed Tutor)

When Fly and Double-Edge are your most powerful physical attacks... yeah... It is a shame to waste that nice looking 100 base Atk stat. U-Turn is very useful and great for the team in general, so at least Moltres can get some use out of that from the physical side.

Notable Special Movepool:
* Flamethrower
* Fire Blast
* Heat Wave
* Overheat
* Air Slash
* Ancientpower
* Solarbeam
* Hidden Power

We don't got much, but we know what it can do. You'll have to choose a good Hidden Power to round out the set, but Fire / Flying STAB is decent however.

Notable Support Movepool:
* Will o Wisp
* Roost
* Agility
* Fire Spin
* Endure
* Safeguard
* Sunny Day
* Toxic
* Subsitute

With Roost, a bit of Defense EVs, and Will o Wisp, you have a decently performing physical tank. Adamant Garchomp fails to OHKO with Stone Edge when burned, clearly showing Moltres's ability to take a hit or two. The Smogon analysis lists such a set.

Similar Pokemon in BL/OU
Before using Moltres, look through this list and make sure no other guy here can do your set better than Moltres. Infernape and Heatran are standards for a reason. Magmotar similarly has access to a huge physical movepool and a similar Sp. Atk as Moltres.
* Magmotar
* Blaziken
* Typhlosion
* Houndoom
* Charizard
* Infernape
* Heatran

Discussion

With Infernape and Heatran as the premier fire pokemon currently, what can Moltres do? Well, I've tested a set out, it isn't gamebreaking material but it certainly beats anything that Infernape / Heatran can do. At least for the current metagame.

Scarf-Lead Moltres.
Modest @ 252 Sp. Atk, 216 Speed, 40 Defense
--------
U-Turn
Will o Wisp
Overheat
Air Slash

Like Yanmega, Moltres has a serious problem with stealth rocks. So I decided to experiment with it as a lead pokemon, and overall... it has done pretty well. U-Turn is extremly useful when paired up with Dugtrio. If you know your opponent will switch out (say... Bronzong or Skarmory lead), U-Turn out of there and see what they do. They will probably switch to Heatran or maybe Tentacruel to absorb the obvious Overheat. U-Turn then hits, giving you a chance to switch out. If they stayed in for some stupid reason, switch to something that can handle Bronzong/Skarm. Else, switch to Dugtrio and score an early kill on Heatran / Tentacruel.

Will o Wisp is a strange one, but it seems to work for me. I use it because it seems like the best thing I can do to Gyarados, the current #1 lead. Gyarados hates burn more than any other pokemon, and it is so effective that Moltres with the above EVs will always survive a Stone Edge from Gyarados, with exception of CB or a Critical Hit.

The above EVs outrun Scarf Heracross.

That said, here are the top 15 leads on the ladder for January:

1 Gyarados (13090 leads)
2 Gengar (12669 leads)

The best for Gyara is again, Will o Wisp. Sorry if you expected better. However, Air Slash does 3-hit KO non-bulky versions (damn you leftovers), and it is a 9% chance that you flinch it 2x in a row. There is a ~50% chance that you'll flinch on either the 1st or the 2nd turn, making you beat Gyarados in the case he decides to Dragon Dance or even (WTF?) Taunt you.

Gengar is OHKOed by Overheat, and Moltres outspeeds non-scarf versions.

EDIT: someone did point out that LO Gengar can OHKO Moltres, however, Moltres will outspeed and OHKO first with Overheat. If Gengar has a Scarf, then it doesn't OHKO Moltres, while Moltres then strikes back with an OHKOed Overheat. Win/Win here.

3 Bronzong (11696 leads)
4 Tyranitar (10024 leads)

Bronzong will switch out :-p If he doesn't, he eats a firey death by Overheat.

Non-boah T-Tar also hates burn, but U-Turn is most likely the best plan.

5 Salamence (9885 leads)

Physical versions are scared of WoW, but Stone Edge hurts and Specs Draco Meteor OHKOs. Gamble on the Physical version, or Switch out.

6 Hippowdon (8437 leads)

2-hit KO with Overheat.

7 Ninjask (6880 leads)
8 Yanmega (6196 leads)
9 Abomasnow (6103 leads)
10 Weavile (5876 leads)
11 Metagross (5798 leads)
12 Roserade (5767 leads)
13 Infernape (5637 leads)
14 Jolteon (5636 leads)
15 Breloom (4933 leads)

All OHKOed by Overheat or Air Slash (for Infernape), but Ninjask probably should be Phazed out by someone else before it gets dangerous.

Obviously, Moltres can be a good lead. Gyarados, Salamence, and T-Tar give it trouble, but it forces many leads out and scores a free hit with U-Turn anyway.

That is all for now.

[animenagai]

you're my hero. i love a sweeper that doesn't have an ice/ground weakness. those weaknesses are so common i have to highlight the list of pokemon that are neutral to both for my team making. great job. i love smogon for stuff like this.

[tea_and_blues]

I think you've single-handedly upped Moltres usage this month, but we'll have to wait for the Shoddy Stats to confirm.

[Fierce Deity]

This will probaly be locked soon, according to the rules discussions concerning a sinlge pokemon are no longer needed.

Happened to mine.

[TAY]

Moltres actually has very useful resists; if only he didn't have that double SR weak he'd be fantastic. Worth noting is that he's the only WoW user with an instant 50% recovery move (besides a garbage slack off Infernape). Burn is a horribly underestimated status, and Moltres is in a unique position to run WoW and have powerful attacks and good recovery. Perhaps something like:
Moltres @ Leftovers
252 HP, 252 def, 4 SpDef
Bold Nature
Ability: Pressure
-Will-O-Wisp
-Roost
-Overheat / Fire Blast
-Air Slash / HP Ground

I don't have time for damage calcs to find optimum EV's, but this will kick the crap out of infernape, SD Lucario, Heatran, Hippo and many others. Air Slash provides STAB and flinchhax; HP Ground is useful if you dont like Heatran and it'll put a dent in TTar as well. STAB Overheat is pretty damn powerful even with zero SpAtk EV's. Outspeeds standard BulkyGyara with WoW and can roost off damage.

I think a defensive set suits Moltres better, since a defense-oriented team is far more likely to have a spinner. And without a spinner there's really no point in using Moltres at all.

Originally Posted by Fat Fierce Deity

This will probaly be locked soon, according to the rules discussions concerning a sinlge pokemon are no longer needed.

Happened to mine.

Dragontamer's post is very well though-out and promotes discussion, so I doubt it will be locked. There is no point in you posting this anyway; it has nothing to do with the topic and is an obvious jab at whoever closed your thread.

Good Luck, Fire Flier! --TAY

[Invective]

Originally Posted by Fat Fierce Deity

This will probaly be locked soon, according to the rules discussions concerning a sinlge pokemon are no longer needed.

Happened to mine.

i think thats mainly tp keep people from coming here and going
"ICAUGHT A SHINY STARLY!!!! what should i train it to do. i dont care about IVs cuz its shiny. what should i do."

either way, this was obviously well thought out, and now im considering him for my BL team.

thank you dragontamer, youve done it again.

[NoMercy]

Charizard and Ho-Oh completely overshadow Moltres. It's probably the worst of the bird trio in my opinion.

[latinoheat]

except ho-oh cannot be used in standard play and charizard does not really fill the same role as moltres.

[The Shadow Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat [kd8]otome

What? Moltres outspeeds non-Scarf Gengar when?

When carrying a scarf himself I guess.

[kingbattlus]

that same gengar can OHKO relatively easily with a life orb and a neutral nature (97-111) so it's quite a gamble there too. i might switch out of gengars just to be sure.

regardless of that though, well-written, i like moltres.

[Automatic]

I've been running Moltres lead for a bit. Only sad face point is that often the first switch is into heatran and then that just sucks.

I find it difficult to predict the first switch usually. (Weavile lead, switches to Heatran, get's ff boost.)

[M4GNITUDE]

I use Moltres in most, if not all the battles I have on youtube.

A lot of people don't give it a chance, but I run the set:
Air Slash
HP Grass
Extrasensory
Flamethrower

Took me almost 4 hours to SR for the right IVs for a good HP grass.

[Viashino_wizard]

Originally Posted by Fat Automatic

I've been running Moltres lead for a bit. Only sad face point is that often the first switch is into heatran and then that just sucks.

I find it difficult to predict the first switch usually. (Weavile lead, switches to Heatran, get's ff boost.)

HP Fighting would work well there.

[TAY]

Keep in mind that, for a hidden power to be useful, it has to hit harder than a pokemon's other attacks. The ONLY pokemon that HP Fighting hits harder than flamethower that HP Ground doesn't hit better is TTar. I'm not saying this is insignificant; however, if your team already has Swampert or Bronzong or something else to beat TTar, then HP Ground is by far the superior choice, as it allows for more damage on Heatran and every non-Moltres fire pokemon in the game.

Good Luck, Hiding Power! --TAY

[Automatic]

Originally Posted by Fat TAY

Keep in mind that, for a hidden power to be useful, it has to hit harder than a pokemon's other attacks. The ONLY pokemon that HP Fighting hits harder than flamethower that HP Ground doesn't hit better is TTar. I'm not saying this is insignificant; however, if your team already has Swampert or Bronzong or something else to beat TTar, then HP Ground is by far the superior choice, as it allows for more damage on Heatran and every non-Moltres fire pokemon in the game.

Good Luck, Hiding Power! --TAY

I think he meant HP Fighting to take out Weavile leads and also bruise Heatran when it comes in on the Fire switch. I've actually never even thought about it. It might work well.

[Kira]

Originally Posted by Fat NoMercy

Charizard and Ho-Oh completely overshadow Moltres. It's probably the worst of the bird trio in my opinion.

I dont think you understand something. Obviously the uber pokemon Ho-Oh will outclass an OU/BL/UU/NU pokemon.

Charizard also has weaker SP. attack, no form of recovery, relies on BP chains for max effectivness... etc...

[GengarCrysis92]

Originally Posted by Fat Kira

Charizard also has weaker SP. attack, no form of recovery, relies on BP chains for max effectivness... etc...

Why would Charizard want a recovery move? It is not meant to tank. The only thing is needs Baton Passed is a Sub if you are using BellyZard: Three Attacks. It is a sweeper. You can't really compare a Tank [Moltres] to a sweeper [Charizard].

[Bologo]

Heh, don't forget, Moltres is friggin amazing on Sun teams. Sunny Day Fire Blast can 2HKO Blissey, and Moltres also gets Morning Sun from XD to restore 66% each time.

[jjjjjamie]

I start with Moltres on my main team and have done so for at least 6 months now.

I use:

Timid
Leftovers
252 speed/252 spa
Flamethrower
Hp Grass
Toxic
Roost

It either dies really fast or totally rapes. I might switch to 252 hp/252 speed timid, and I am definately feeling hp ground (heatran gives my team much more trouble than swampert, and pert is way rarer anyways.)

I like Toxic because I can hit Gyara starts as they DD, then switch to Suicune to laugh at their Waterfall. Considering WoW though, I'll test that tomorrow.

[Aeroblacktyl]

Charizard learns Roost ?

[Dragontamer]

Originally Posted by Fat Automatic

I've been running Moltres lead for a bit. Only sad face point is that often the first switch is into heatran and then that just sucks.

I find it difficult to predict the first switch usually. (Weavile lead, switches to Heatran, get's ff boost.)

If you have a pokemon who can counter the opponent's lead that Moltres is especially dangerous to, U-Turn. It goes like this:

1. Moltres is sent out. Bronzong is sent out.
2. Player2 sends out Heatran. Moltres uses U-Turn. Player1 sends out Dugtrio.
3. Heatran dies.

U-Turn on the first turn totally demolishes any Heatran switch-in if properly predicted.

[Kira]

Nobody ever said Charizard learned roost. The opposite however has been stated.

[GengarCrysis92]

Originally Posted by Fat Kira

Nobody ever said Charizard learned roost. The opposite however has been stated.

Charizard learns Roost...

Charizard's Support Movepool:
Roost
WoW
Toxic
Roar [Not sure if it is a support move]

Yup, thats it. Charizard shouldn't even be using support moves anyway. Like I said: Sweeper compared to Tank. You just can't compare them.

[Kira]

Oh, oops. I never knew it learned roost. Still what NoMercy said was stupid. It is like saying, Rain Dance set up Bronzong is inferior to Kyogre. I mean obviously the uber is going to outshine it.

And Charizard still has a different role than Moltres.

[blastoiselover100]

I like to use Heat Wave Moltres in doubles. So far it has really paid off. I would like to see more of it, but those damned Stealth Rocks hinder it so much. :(