Revisions to the Threat List

Ok guys, the metagame has changed enough from whenever I last added/removed any pokémon from this Threat List that I think it's time we reconsider which pokémon are genuine offensive threats today and which are not quite as threatening as I once thought they could be in March of last year when I first drafted the Threat List by myself. Pokémon like Slowbro and Staraptor seem obvious candidates for removal to me, but the main reason I am even posting this thread in here is because I am not going to pretend I even play this game enough competitively to say, by myself, which pokémon belong on this list and which do not.

But by the same token, you should reread that last sentence and realize the kind of discussion I expect in this thread. I want detailed, convincing arguments for any candidate for addition/removal based 100% on quality battle experience and/or observations. There is a reason I am posting this here when there's already a topic about it in our Inside Scoop Forum. This is because no matter how tenured or intelligent most of our badgeholders are, many of us do not play or observe the game as often and as consistently as an ever-changing work like the Threat List deserves. It's very much like our Tier system in that regard.

One way I think, or at least *hope* it is *not* like our Tier system is in the way the majority of Stark has chosen to spew worthless, off-topic tripe about what is uber and what isn't uber and what should be all for the wrong or sometimes entirely nonexistent reasons. I remind you that I personally have had to lock like three of these kinds of threads since 2005. Again, I cannot stress enough the implication of me actually posting this thread here. I am doing so because I know full well that no matter how much I know about pokémon or how long I personally have played this game at a high level, I cannot accurately say: which ones have remained genuine offensive threats, which ones have not, which ones never were, which ones still aren't, which actually aren't despite having been added in later edits, and which ones actually are despite their not being on the list, you get the idea.

So if you do not have at least two months of quality battle exposure (experience and observation of good battlers, both preferably in ladder play), I do not want you posting in this thread. For the third time, the main reason I'm not updating this myself or taking the word of the 2-3 Inside Scoopers who weighed in in the last few months is because I don't have the time to have played quality battles on the ladder. But also, I feel this an issue deserving of mass opinion, where that mass actually and literally knows what they're talking about.

So, finally, I will restate what I want from this thread so we are crystal clear. I want to know what pokémon are deserving of addition/removal from the (offensive) Threat List, an issue that can only be validly discussed by those with actual, quality competitive battle exposure. Do not post your candidates in this thread without some evidence for either side or I am going to get annoyed and delete your post and probably infract you. And do not post you opinions about someone else's post unless you know what you're talking about yourself and can back it up with numbers and/or experience of your own. As I hinted at above, some of the absolute worst threads in this forum have been Tier threads and this is rather similar in scope.

It may help to post snippets of logs that may prove your point (likely an "addition" point as it's harder to prove a "removal" point with a log). It would very much help to reference weighted usage on Shoddy battle to aid your argument, but if you do, you're still going to have to back up your argument with other evidence and arguments (I am capable of reading and interpreting usage statistics by themselves on my own, in other words). I think it's also a good idea to reread my RMT Announcement and understand the reasoning I had in not adding some pokémon or not going into actual detail about a certain threat's counters or which pokémon work best with which threats. Most importantly, I don't consider something an offensive threat if it is easily walled by "Blisskarm", the standard of defensive walling, as I wrote in March 2007.

As a brief aside, one likely addition off the top of my head is Deoxys-S, and I'm not being a hypocrite in suggesting it because I actually played against it and was paying close attention to battles when it was being tested on the ladder. Regardless, here are the current pokémon on the Threat List:


Tyranitar
Gyarados
Infernape
Azelf
Rhyperior
Electivire
Heracross
Salamence
Togekiss
Gengar
Garchomp
Raikou
Lucario
Tauros
Starmie
Weavile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
PorygonZ
Medicham
Staraptor
Slowbro
Machamp
Jolteon
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Zapdos
Blissey
Suicune
Sceptile
Breloom
Slaking
Tangrowth
Ninjask
Metagross
Heatran
Celebi
Jirachi


Have at it. No tl;dr here—if you didn't read most/all of this post, it probably isn't in your best interests to post until you do.

I kind of hate to say it because it's been a huge fad to say "Mamoswine weak" to every team that doesnt have bronzong, but i think he deserves mention. it's higher on the weighted list than alot of stuff here and from personal experience i encounter it rather often.

Addition:
Roserade- That thing's popularity as a lead is on the rise and can halve the lifespan of teams with two layers of toxic spikes being set up within 2-3 turns. Hippowdon and Swampert are on the rise in the lead department and can simply be fodder for Roserade to set up. Another issue with Roserade is that if it is given the chance to set up Toxic Spikes on turn 1 and the opponent lacks a spinner(spinners are not very popular at the moment), Garchomp, argueably the most threatening pokemon in OU, has been severely crippled upon switching in. Plenty of teams that run 3+ bulky tanks that happen to not be flying type/have levitate, poison, or steel type are automatically crippled as well, and can give lethal sweepers like Swords Dance Lucario time to set up with even more ease. Adding Roserade is pretty legitimate.

...hell, Natural Cure makes Gengar and co. not being reliable solutions to lead-off Roserade. The most reliable way to counter this is a team with a Sleep absorber and a poison type to remove the Toxic Spikes.


I have alot of experience on shoddy to back up this statement.


Please forgive me if I made an incoherent post, I read you're post very thoroughly.

Does kingdra deserve a mention? It hits 420 speed in the rain iirc, and has bulky stats all-round to make it a viable option with the ever-popular rain dance team. Another important factor is the mix set, which is even harder to wall, save for a few key candidates like dusknoir and cresselia.

Could it be an option? It performs a hard and fast sweep with a few turns of setup but can be bought down with paralysis or sand stream support.

Additionally, alakazam seems like a rather unimportant addition to the threat list, having only encountered him about 7 or 8 times in my time as playing the shoddy ladder. He is also easy to take down with a fast physical move, and his only real redeeming factors are a strong (albeit poorly typed) STAB and trick specs.

EDIT: Pursuit makes him all the poorer. Weavile CB pursuit and scarfcross make him a poor option any day of the week.

Please don't infract me.

Deletions:
Shoddy usage statistics back my claims up, but I'll post little snippets of why usage has decreased/increased and why it is no longer a threat.

Pokemon (Overall usage in January)
Rhyperior (55th) - We greatly overestimated this Pokemon. Usage declined almost immediately, and in the vast majority of cases if a team can counter Tyranitar and Garchomp, it can counter Rhyperior.
Raikou (62nd) - Usage declined due to tremendous Blissey usage and most players are opting out for the quicker setup power of nasty plot.
Tauros (108th) - Normal cbers are inadvertently walled by steel types intended to take Garchomp outrages
Staraptor (56th) - ^
Alakazam (51st) - Grail, due to the excess of of scarfers it goes down easily. i guess you could make a case for scarfzam being able to deal damage to a team, but people would much rather opt for scarfgar due to better resistances and hypnosis
Medicham (76th)
Aerodactyl (52nd)
Sceptile (74th) - I'm not 100% sure why these last 3 have dropped so much in usage. Medicham has that huge attack that reaches 720 with a cb slapped on and has ice punch to deal with Gliscor, the most common cb fighter counter. Aerodactyl can make for a reasonably good revenge killer and Sceptile is a subseeder with amazing speed that also has the ability to run specs or even swords dance sets off of reasonable sp. attack and attack stats. But even though these pokemon are usable, there's no point preparing for a pokemon you're not going to run into.
Slaking (127th) - normal type cber spiel

Additions:
Yanmega (33rd) - Can tear through any team that lacks a general special wall (ie blissey or snorlax)
Mamoswine (35th) - Ice/ground is a ridiculous stab type combination. People are starting to wise up to how good it is and usage is rising
Scizor (39th) - Technician on quick attack/aerial ace and ability to swords dance/agility pass or sweep itself make this a viable OU threat.

One pokemon that can pose a large threat to unprepared teams is Yanmega. It's true that it's 100% countered by something as common as Blissey if Sleep Clause is active (barring reversal sets), but the damage it can inflict on teams that lack special bulk (offensive teams are particularly vulnerable, as ones that rely on a revenge killer using a Scarf to deal with threats like these will find their efforts in vain thanks to speed boost) which is neutral to one or more of it's STAB attacks is worthy of making it a consideration for any team.

One other that's very worthy of being a threat to prepare for is Gallade. With Close Combat, Psycho Cut, Ice Punch, and X-Scissor, there are hardly any pokemon in OU that can switch in without risking losing 50% of their health. It also packs several other potent offensive options (Stone Edge, Thunderpunch, Leaf Blade), Swords Dance, and even a large variety of status moves (Hypnosis, WoW, T-wave). Replacing Medicham with Gallade might be a good idea, as Medicham's movepool is entirely contained within Gallade's (Medicham's sole advantage being it's superior attack, but that's only an advantage while using moves like the ele-punches thanks to the immense power boost that Close Combat grants over Brick Break or HJK), and Gallade has far superior options for both STAB and removing psychic-types.

The above couple posts covered yanmega well, he definitely should be on there. It's a strong special attacker, it has speed boost, and it can hypnosis. Thats reason enough right there.

The only ones I might consider removing are tauros or slaking. Slaking because I've seen only 1 on shoddy over a lot of battles and because it almost always runs a CB set due to truant and just tries to hit stuff hard with return and switch out on the truant. In my opinion, anyone who really knows what they're doing is going to be able to not only deal with a slaking, but use it's predictability to their advantage. As for tauros, I realize hes a decent physical sweeper but he doesn't really do anything extremely well that other physical sweepers can't. I feel like if you've got a tauros weakness, you've got a bunch of other weaknesses, that are likely more pressing. Well I forgot about anger point, but I'm pretty sure I've never played against a tauros that was subbing to grab the crit.

my 2 cents!

I don't think Ninjask should be up there, mainly because of the huge growth of great (P)Hazers as leads nowadays (Swampert is seeing more and more action, Gyarados fucks it up, Skarm gets a free switch in, Roars, and Spikes for the hell of it) and not to mention how easy it is to set up on it and then Roar. Hell, damn near any team with a Phazer has a field day with any team carrying Ninjask. He also gets fucked up by SR if he switches in.

Basically any battle against a Ninjask lead is going to run like this:

Ninjask used Substitute!
Ninjask's Speed Boost raised its Speed!
At this point, opp realizes that he's going to BP a Speed Boost to a teammate. Smart thing to do is to switch to your Phazer, Hypno/Spore the switch, or whatever.
[OPP] withdrew Gallade!
[OPP] sent out Skarmory!

Ninjask used Baton Pass!
Retard sent out Medicham!
Skarmory used Roar!
[bleh] was dragged out!

So basically if you have half a brain you really have no use using Ninjask.
I've played 3,000 battles vs Ninjask, and used him in a few of my early teams, and have enough experience against it to say that it's really a quick fix and not even worthy of mentioning in the threat list.

Not to mention he's a piece of shit, but hey, that's my opinion.

Please don't infract me.

Click to expand...

Removals:

Rhyperior

Rhyperior, while certainly dangerous, has dropped to mediocre in terms of both usage and ability in the metagame. A bad typing and horrid speed don't help it at all. Rhyperior has monsterous attack and defense with a good ability, but it really just doesn't stick around, it's SpDef just isn't good enough. I know when I build a team, I'm not worried about Rhyperior sweeping me.

Electivire

Like Rhyperior, Electivire has really dropped off the charts. No matter what build you use, it seems to get stopped by something easily. The dreaded "Gyaravire" duo has all but died. Electivires physical attacks don't hit hard enough, and it's special attack stat is just to low to make use of it. Electivire is more threatening after a speed boost, but is often forced to switch early due to it's lack of high BP moves to compliment it's great attack stat. Electivire has been seeing less play and even less KO's / sweeps recently, it's definatly not one of the main threats you should be worrying about when making a team.

Tauros

Tauros has fallen to BL (or maybe even UU?) tier status, and for good reason. Base 100 attack just isn't cutting it these days. Sure, it's got good speed and Intimidate, but when teams are preparing for shit like CB Garchomp, they're laughing off little old Tauros. If you can handle Salamence / Garchomp / Metagross, you can handle Tauros.

Medicham

Pure Power is awsome on paper, but when you realize Heracross and Gallade hit just as hard thanks to Close Combat's big increase in base power, Medicham looks a lot less appealing. Add in the fact that it's not to fast, and terribly frail. Medicham isn't the wall breaking pokemon it used to be.

Staraptor

Like many others I'm suggesting to remove, Staraptor has seemingly died off. Intimidate is a usful trait, but it doesn't have the typing or defenses to utilize it. Staraptors attack is good, combined with decent speed, but it takes 1/3 recoil on it's strongest STAB attack, and takes 25% each switch in from stealth rock. There's no reason to keep Staraptor here.

Aerodactyl

It's fast. That's about it. Aerodactyls power has really dropped in comparison to it's breathern in powerhouses like Tyranitar and Azelf, it just doesn't pose as big a threat as it once did. If you can handle the big names, you can handle Aerodactyl with ease.

Sceptile

Pretty much the same as Aerodactyl. Sceptile is fast, but it really lacks offensivly. Sub Seeders are annoying, but don't really do that much. A good physical movepool, but with only 85 base attack, it's not exactly utilizing it to it's full potential.


Slaking

It hits hard, but everyone should be able to nerf it thanks to steel types rising (Heatran, Bronzong, Magnezone anyone?). And many, many, many pokemon will gladly take advantage of the free turn of setup even if Slaking does get a KO. Slaking just doesn't have a niche in the current metagame, now that everything else has caught up to it's great attack power.

Additions:

Mamoswine

While it's incredibly annoying to look through the RMT forum and find nothing but "MAMOSWINE WEAK" it's also true in many cases. Mamoswine gets STAB on what is possibly the best 2 type attacking combonation in the game, hitting 9 types SE. 130 base attack is monsterous, with great HP and surprising speed. Mamoswine can easily rip through any team that's unprepared. Ice Shard further adds to the threat Mamoswine poses, as it can now pick off weakened pokemon (and by weakened, I mean around 50%-60% HP) and OHKO the big three dragons.

Yanmega

After using this, I love it. Teams without Blissey are in trouble. Yanmega hits hard. Yanmega hits harder with Tinted Lense. Speed Boost is a (almost) unique ability that gives Yanmega the chance to tear offensive teams apart. Protect and Hypnosis are great support moves, and Air Slash is a great STAB attack on the second best attacking type in the game. Bug Buzz is also extremely good, 2HKO'ing even the toughest of Cresselia's, and doing great damage against everything else. Yanmega definatly needs to be added.

Dragonite

I find it odd how Dragonite wasn't on the original threat list. After 1 Dragon Dance, it at most 2HKO's everything in the damn metagame. With beefy defenses, it's a definate possibility Dragonite is able to get 2 Dragon Dances in. After that, Outrage is a attack no pokemon wants to take. Add in the fact that you're outspeeding even Choice Scarf Heracross after 1 DD while OHKO'ing damn near everything, and Dragonite is one pokemon you really need to be prepared for.

Deoxys-S

While much of Smogon stills sees this as uber, Jump said something about adding it, so I'll post my opinion here. Deoxys-S is a HUGE threat. With minimal EV's in speed, it can outspeed Scarfchomp, and afford to invest almost 252 EV's into both attacks, while carrying a Life Orb. Add in a movepool that even Gengar is jelous of, and you have yet another threat. Deoxys-S rips through offensive teams like a hot knife through butter, and after building a team around it, I have to say most current teams aren't prepared for it, and they pay the price. It's type coverage is unreal, and it easily 2HKO's Blissey. Mind you, you're still outrunning Scarfchomp (455 speed) and holding a Life Orb to boost it's dubbed "Mediocre attacking stats"

I am going to back up Yanmega and Mamoswine as additions for sure. I have used both and encountered both and they can cause a lot of pain for teams without a good counter. Yanmega does have the problem of being countered by blissey straight up and stealth rock can hinder him, but if your team doesn't use Blissey or has had Blissey taken out then Yanmega is extremely tough to counter effectively. HP:Ground really screws with heatrans that people ocassionaly use to wall the Air Slash/Bug Buzz combination. The added bonus of Hypnosis and Speed Boost means he can come in early to cripple/disable something with sleep and has the ability to sweep late game without worries of scarf users because of speed boost.

I have been using Mamoswine on almost every one of my OU teams for the last month and it needs to be added as a threat for sure. STAB Ice/Ground should speak enough for why it should be added as a threat. But the best setup in my opinion is the Jolly with Life Orb to hit some crucial OHKO numbers and outspeed a great deal of pokemon in the process. He hits above a common speed number of 270 with Jolly and the right EV's. He also gets a STAB priority move in Ice Shard that can deal with anything faster for revenge kills/dragon kills/finishing blows. On top of it all he is neutral to stealth rock and resists sandstorm and his 110 base HP and 80 base defense can actually take neutral hits just fine.

Great choices Iggy, agreeing with all of them.
Alakazam really has me stumped =[

Electivire

Like Rhyperior, Electivire has really dropped off the charts. No matter what build you use, it seems to get stopped by something easily. The dreaded "Gyaravire" duo has all but died. Electivires physical attacks don't hit hard enough, and it's special attack stat is just to low to make use of it. Electivire is more threatening after a speed boost, but is often forced to switch early due to it's lack of high BP moves to compliment it's great attack stat. Electivire has been seeing less play and even less KO's / sweeps recently, it's definatly not one of the main threats you should be worrying about when making a team.

I originally had this on my list, but quickly reconsidered. It's still an OU pokemon, sitting at 31st on the usage chart. This thing is still potentially deadly with good prediction. Even though the hyped supereffective set is somewhat underwhelming in terms of the damage it deals, mix sets can still catch kills here and there.. Also I feel covering Electivire is a good defensive stepping stone as it oftentimes means you've countered several other popular offensive threats.

Brawlex said:

Great choices Iggy!
Might want to add in Vaporeon and Shuckle to the list. Vaporeon stops a good number of threats and helps the team, while shuckle walls shit like crazy...

Click to expand...

Really? Shuckle? It's more support / setup fodder / filler than anything else. I find it just can't contribute to teams like it should.

Mainly because of the 3 seismic tosses from blissey can bring him down, while he retaliates with toxic and stealth rock.

I mentioned this in my most recent RMT here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36192

These Pokemon are sorted in the order in which they appear on the weighted usage list. (editing out the defensive Pokemon)

Threat List

Garchomp
Gengar
Gyarados
Tyranitar
Lucario
Heatran
Metagross
Salamence
Infernape
Weavile
Starmie
Breloom
Heracross
Togekiss
Azelf
Snorlax
Jirachi
Suicune
PorygonZ
Electivire

And now for whatever is on the threat list but isn't in the top 31, just for fun.

Machamp: I expect this to move up the list to be more common, so it might warrant inclusion
Jolteon: I don't see this as particularly more threatening than Raikou and Zapdos. If you have those two covered, you pretty much have Jolteon covered. It should not be on the list.
Zapdos
Dugtrio: This can really screw up teams and set up a sweep for something else, so it should stay despite being rare.
Ninjask: This is pretty much the poster-child for adding a phazer to your team. A quick mention of it would be nice.
Alakazam
Aerodactyl
Rhyperior: Mostly covered by Tyranitar and Garchomp counters, and not that common.
Staraptor
Raikou
Slowbro: What is this doing here? If anything, Slowking is the threatening one thanks to Nasty Plot, and I don't think even that deserves special mention.
Tauros: Staraptor pretty much entirely outclasses Tauros. If you have Staraptor covered, you have Tauros covered, so it doesn't need to be on here.
Sceptile: I just don't see this as even close to the level of threats like Infernape, Heracross, and even Scizor.
Medicham: Machamp pretty much does this better.
Slaking: This is in the same boat as Tauros, really.


Everything in the first part of the list ought to be included as it is common enough, threatening, and none of them have truly overlapping counters.


Add Deoxys-S to the list and that's pretty much the big threats.

I don't know about adding Scizor, because it's mostly a worse Lucario offensively speaking. The STAB on X-Scissor is nice, as is good defenses, so it might warrant inclusion.

I'm saying no to Yanmega because it is the single most overrated Pokemon in the history of Pokemon, and isn't really that common.

Kingdra and Mamoswine are pretty solid additions.

My Experiences and comments:

Tyranitar
Gyarados
Infernape - Mixape is easily countered IMO. A LOT of things are scarfed and too many pokemon are faster then him for him to do the damage that he should.
Azelf
Rhyperior - Is played as a defensive wall 90% of the time, and the other grounds make him damn near UU.
Electivire - Unfortunately, he is easily countered now as his attacks fail to KO too many things. Remove him.
Heracross
Salamence
Togekiss
Gengar
Garchomp
Raikou
Lucario
Tauros
Starmie
Weavile
Dugtrio - IMO he is an offensive threat, but not enough to warrant a way to "counter" him. If he revenge kills something its free set-up fodder, so I don't see how a team can be "Dugtrio weak." He has no place on the threat list to me.
Alakazam
PorygonZ
Medicham - does not deserve to be here. You switch to a resisted attack, and its free set-up. He's always scarf, so it's a giveaway.
Staraptor
Slowbro
Machamp
Jolteon
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Zapdos
Blissey
Suicune
Sceptile - isn't seen much lately. Roserade should be here.
Breloom
Slaking - is always choice... just have a steel type..
Tangrowth - a defensive pokemon...
Ninjask
Metagross
Heatran
Celebi
Jirachi

I commented what should be removed and my reasons why. As for what should be added...

Mamoswine - he's slightly overrated lately, but still a potent threat and deserves a mention

Yanmega - with Blissey gone, he is the deadliest pokemon in the game. Period.

Kingdra - another deadly sweeper that cleans better than most of this list. Can be EVed to outrun anything, and can smack through walls on both sides (Blissey and Dusknoir fall immediately after their switch in... yikes).

Dragonite - is still deadly, but stealth rock neuters him. He still deserves a mention though.

Deoxys - S - must be added. His type coverage and speed are phenomenal. Only steels successfully wall him, and he can HP Fire / Fire Punch them as well.

Roserade - hits hard, will sleep you, will poison your team, can scarf and outrun you, and can abuse weather. What more can you ask for? Deserves a mention.

Gliscor - as much as he is used defensively, people forget that he can still Swords Dance and sand hax, just like garchomp. It's not used as frequently, but SD deserves a mention, because he can taunt you and baton pass it.

Crobat - Is fast as heck and can abuse brave bird. He's climbing in usage! He can taunt your recovery, set up, and status and U-turn to something you have no chance of touching.

Floatzel - can run Kristy and break the game open. Most physical walls can't wall him because theyre weak to waterfall, and hes fast enough to baton pass anything to a counter.

I'd assume the reason Dragonite wasn't on the first threat list is because it's so similar to both Mence and Chomp, and covering both of them generally means you've got Dragonite covered. I'm somewhat conflicted as to whether or not it deserves it's own entry on the threat list, but if it can get off two Dragon Dances (not an impossible feat given Dragonite's solid special defense and Yache Berry) it loses the problem of not beating Scarfcross after a single DD without Jolly and is far more of a threat than a twice-DD'd Salamence.

As far as removals go...

Tauros is a definite yes. 100 attack with only normal STAB really isn't threatening anymore.

Electivire is pretty heavily a no. Whether or not it lives up to the hype and whether or not it's a genuine offensive threat are two different matters, and it certainly succeeds in the latter. It still has excellent coverage and enough attack to sweep teams that aren't prepared.

Aerodactyl is a yes. Generally, it uses a combonation of attacks very similar to that of Tyranitar, but without Ice Beam or STAB Crunch. If you've got the big dino covered chances are pretty high you've got Aero covered too.

Jolteon is a yes. As Obi said, if you've got both Zapdos and Raikou covered you've also got Jolteon taken care of.

Fishin said:

I'd assume the reason Dragonite wasn't on the first threat list is because it's so similar to both Mence and Chomp, and covering both of them generally means you've got Dragonite covered. I'm somewhat conflicted as to whether or not it deserves it's own entry on the threat list, but if it can get off two Dragon Dances (not an impossible feat given Dragonite's solid special defense and Yache Berry) it loses the problem of not beating Scarfcross after a single DD without Jolly and is far more of a threat than a twice-DD'd Salamence.

Click to expand...

Yes, and that is exactly why I think it should at least be given mention to the list. Dragonite has sturdy defenses, and with a Yache easily DD's twice. While it is mostly inferior to Salamence / Garchomp in most other sets, DD / Outrage is threatening enough to warrent mention in my opinion.

Fishin said:

Electivire is pretty heavily a no. Whether or not it lives up to the hype and whether or not it's a genuine offensive threat are two different matters, and it certainly succeeds in the latter. It still has excellent coverage and enough attack to sweep teams that aren't prepared.

Click to expand...

I know plenty of people will disagree with me on Electivire, but that's what discussion is for. I agree that Electivire is a offensive threat, but so is Alakazam. Actually, I would go as far to say that Alakazam may be MORE of a threat than Electivire, thanks to having high BP attacks to back up it's great SpAtk and speed, along with the fact that no special wall enjoys the threat that Trick poses. Why Alakazam isn't used more is something I don't understand, but that's neither here nor there.

As I was saying before going off on Alakazam there, while I agree with you that Electivire poses a threat, I don't think the threat is big enough for this list. While having great type coverage, Electivire doesn't hit nearly as hard as it first appear, since it suffers from Weavile syndrome, in that it's strongest physical attack is 112 BP. However, unlike Weavile, Electivire also lacks a way to quickly boost its attack stat (I think we can all agree getting a +1 boost from Meditate each turn isn't quick) and really has to rely on Life Orb to boost its damage output.

I see a lot of people saying putting Yanmega on the threats list and taking Sceptile off.

In my opinion, Yanmega's STABs kill it. Bug/Flying is possibly one of the worst combos in the game- if not the worst. It relies on a Hidden Power to not be walled by certain things, and it's even walled by certain things to an extent. With no HP Ground (or possibly fighting), Heatran laughs off its attacks. With no Hidden Power and with Hypnosis, it would just mean a possible free turn to get out of there, which seems kind of like a waste of a Poke.

Also, Sceptile. Probably the best SubSeeder in the game, due to its speed. But what cripples a SubSeeder? Phazers in particular. Now the most common phazers are Skarmory, Swampert, Cune, and the every once in a while Donphan. It can hit Skarm with the obligatory HP Fire, hit Swampert with the obvious STAB grass move, as well as hit the other two with a grass move as well. It hits the most common phazers super effectively (my bad if I'm missing one). Taunt also screws it over, but the Taunter will eventually have to switch anyways from Leech Seed damage.

Edit: How could I have forgotten Hippo? :[

I don't know where that leaves Sceptile, but take that into consideration, I guess.

Good night people.

Bentendo13 said:

I see a lot of people saying putting Yanmega on the threats list and taking Sceptile off.

In my opinion, Yanmega's STABs kill it. Bug/Flying is possibly one of the worst combos in the game- if not the worst. It relies on a Hidden Power to not be walled by certain things, and it's even walled by certain things to an extent. With no HP Ground (or possibly fighting), Heatran laughs off its attacks. With no Hidden Power and with Hypnosis, it would just mean a possible free turn to get out of there, which seems kind of like a waste of a Poke.

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Special Flying is the second best attacking type in the game, right behind Ice according to X-Acts research. Bug is no slouch either, considering the amount of psychics that are in the metagame now. Yes, they get terrible coverage together, but they are both good attacking types individually. And many things have to "rely" on a Hidden Power (Gengar, Azelf needs HP Fighting to get by Heatran, Porygon-Z needs HP Fighting as well), it's not like it's a big deal. No, Yanmega doesn't get perfect type coverage, but it does get 2 great STAB attacks, 2 awsome abilitys, and a good SpAtk stat to back all of that up.

Obi, I don't see how you can call Yanmega the single most overrated pokemon in the history of pokemon. If anything, I think Yanmega was underrated. While it's movepool is pretty limited, it does have the ability to run a few variations that are all effective. The Stealth Rock weakness really hurts, but it's still damn good.

I wonder if the threat list can be updated to include what are, in my opinion, much more significant than the individual Pokemon themselves: combinations.

See, for most individual Pokemon / moves, I can just say I am using <insert defensive combination> (for example, Gyarados + Magnezone, which resists EVERY type in the game) and have a supposed "counter" or "check" against it. Countering Infernape with Gyarados is all well and good, but how does that help you when your opponent switches to Infernape's made-in-heaven offensive complement, Gengar?

Instead of a threat list that displays individual Pokemon, why don't we work on a "combinations" threat? My point here is that for the linear case of 1 Pokemon v. 1 Pokemon, anyone can throw together a team of randoms and say "A counters B. C counters D. E counters F. etc. etc."

By emphasizing combinations, we are in effect asking the team builder to explain the SYNERGY of his team, and not how "Pokemon A uses move B to defeat Pokemon C."

Note, I'm just asking what people think about this, not for actual combinations themselves.

BWAHAHAHA MAMOSWINE! okay, enough craziness for a day, nagai. anyways, i don't need to say much about why this guy should be there, there's been enough said.

i'm gonna ask for togekiss to be added to the list. flinch hax is crazy. it could destroy an unprepared team. ever tried scarfkiss? it can do wonders for you late game.

i'm not sure if dragonite should be added to the list. if you've tried DD nite, you realize that it's quite limited to late game. it needs the speed boost for it to keep up with its peers, and everyone has ice on their team nowadays. what DDnite can do, salamence can do with the exception of outrage and that's not necessarily better than dragon claw. i don't think it's popular/common enough for it to be up there.

final note, should wobbuffet be on this list? it's not an offensive force but it is a 'threat'.

Togekiss is on the list and has been since March, you should probably have used Ctrl-F if you were surprised it wasn't on the list. And I'm not going to add Wobbuffet until further testing has been conducted on Shoddy that indicates it belongs in standard.

You are "right" about Dragonite though—the reason I didn't add it in March is because it is largely similar to Salamence, who is extremely threatening. If you have a counter to Salamence, chances are you have a counter to Dragonite as well. Now, I think that is somewhat open to interpretation but that is where one of you will have to convince me it's that much different from Salamence. It's currently 45th in usage with the aforementioned Roserade and Ninjask closely around it, for what that is worth. I'm going to edit it a few points I left out around midnight when I posted this to clarify a few things.

Jumpman16 said:

Now, I think that is somewhat open to interpretation but that is where one of you will have to convince me it's that much different from Salamence.

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In my experience, Salamence and Dragonite are played very differently.

Salamence is largely used either as a "hit and run" attacker, whether with Specs, Life Orb or even the CB physical set, or as a viable defensive/support option with Intimidate, Roost and/or Wish.

Dragonite, on the other hand, is usually used either as a Dragon Dance/Outrage "suicide" sweeper (the only pokemon that attains this combination;) or as a bulky tank with Roost/Dragon Dance. Dragonite's lesser speed and lack of Intimidate which can force switches on physical attackers doesn't permit it to act as a "hit and run" Choice Band/Specs (despite the fact that Dragonite has a better movepool on both sides of the spectrum) attacker to the same extent that Salamence can (though it's certainly not out of the question).

Mismagius is quite threatening... if you rely in Blissey to take Special Hits, and you don't have a Pursuiter... you are Mismagius weak.

Trust said:

Mismagius is quite threatening... if you rely in Blissey to take Special Hits...

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True, Mismagius is a major threat. Like you mentioned, it sets up incredibly easily on Blissey, with it's excellent special defense (Blissey's special attacks will not break Mismagius's subs, save for Shadow Ball which is rare to say the least) and immunity to Seismic Toss.

Furthermore, the common phazers are weak to some combination of its attacks, or have average to low SDef..., Hippowdon, Skarmory, Suicune et al.