Jumpman16
np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
Ok guys, the metagame has changed enough from whenever I last added/removed any pokémon from this Threat List that I think it's time we reconsider which pokémon are genuine offensive threats today and which are not quite as threatening as I once thought they could be in March of last year when I first drafted the Threat List by myself. Pokémon like Slowbro and Staraptor seem obvious candidates for removal to me, but the main reason I am even posting this thread in here is because I am not going to pretend I even play this game enough competitively to say, by myself, which pokémon belong on this list and which do not.
But by the same token, you should reread that last sentence and realize the kind of discussion I expect in this thread. I want detailed, convincing arguments for any candidate for addition/removal based 100% on quality battle experience and/or observations. There is a reason I am posting this here when there's already a topic about it in our Inside Scoop Forum. This is because no matter how tenured or intelligent most of our badgeholders are, many of us do not play or observe the game as often and as consistently as an ever-changing work like the Threat List deserves. It's very much like our Tier system in that regard.
One way I think, or at least *hope* it is *not* like our Tier system is in the way the majority of Stark has chosen to spew worthless, off-topic tripe about what is uber and what isn't uber and what should be all for the wrong or sometimes entirely nonexistent reasons. I remind you that I personally have had to lock like three of these kinds of threads since 2005. Again, I cannot stress enough the implication of me actually posting this thread here. I am doing so because I know full well that no matter how much I know about pokémon or how long I personally have played this game at a high level, I cannot accurately say: which ones have remained genuine offensive threats, which ones have not, which ones never were, which ones still aren't, which actually aren't despite having been added in later edits, and which ones actually are despite their not being on the list, you get the idea.
So if you do not have at least two months of quality battle exposure (experience and observation of good battlers, both preferably in ladder play), I do not want you posting in this thread. For the third time, the main reason I'm not updating this myself or taking the word of the 2-3 Inside Scoopers who weighed in in the last few months is because I don't have the time to have played quality battles on the ladder. But also, I feel this an issue deserving of mass opinion, where that mass actually and literally knows what they're talking about.
So, finally, I will restate what I want from this thread so we are crystal clear. I want to know what pokémon are deserving of addition/removal from the (offensive) Threat List, an issue that can only be validly discussed by those with actual, quality competitive battle exposure. Do not post your candidates in this thread without some evidence for either side or I am going to get annoyed and delete your post and probably infract you. And do not post you opinions about someone else's post unless you know what you're talking about yourself and can back it up with numbers and/or experience of your own. As I hinted at above, some of the absolute worst threads in this forum have been Tier threads and this is rather similar in scope.
It may help to post snippets of logs that may prove your point (likely an "addition" point as it's harder to prove a "removal" point with a log). It would very much help to reference weighted usage on Shoddy battle to aid your argument, but if you do, you're still going to have to back up your argument with other evidence and arguments (I am capable of reading and interpreting usage statistics by themselves on my own, in other words). I think it's also a good idea to reread my RMT Announcement and understand the reasoning I had in not adding some pokémon or not going into actual detail about a certain threat's counters or which pokémon work best with which threats. Most importantly, I don't consider something an offensive threat if it is easily walled by "Blisskarm", the standard of defensive walling, as I wrote in March 2007.
As a brief aside, one likely addition off the top of my head is Deoxys-S, and I'm not being a hypocrite in suggesting it because I actually played against it and was paying close attention to battles when it was being tested on the ladder. Regardless, here are the current pokémon on the Threat List:
Tyranitar
Gyarados
Infernape
Azelf
Rhyperior
Electivire
Heracross
Salamence
Togekiss
Gengar
Garchomp
Raikou
Lucario
Tauros
Starmie
Weavile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
PorygonZ
Medicham
Staraptor
Slowbro
Machamp
Jolteon
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Zapdos
Blissey
Suicune
Sceptile
Breloom
Slaking
Tangrowth
Ninjask
Metagross
Heatran
Celebi
Jirachi
Have at it. No tl;dr here—if you didn't read most/all of this post, it probably isn't in your best interests to post until you do.
But by the same token, you should reread that last sentence and realize the kind of discussion I expect in this thread. I want detailed, convincing arguments for any candidate for addition/removal based 100% on quality battle experience and/or observations. There is a reason I am posting this here when there's already a topic about it in our Inside Scoop Forum. This is because no matter how tenured or intelligent most of our badgeholders are, many of us do not play or observe the game as often and as consistently as an ever-changing work like the Threat List deserves. It's very much like our Tier system in that regard.
One way I think, or at least *hope* it is *not* like our Tier system is in the way the majority of Stark has chosen to spew worthless, off-topic tripe about what is uber and what isn't uber and what should be all for the wrong or sometimes entirely nonexistent reasons. I remind you that I personally have had to lock like three of these kinds of threads since 2005. Again, I cannot stress enough the implication of me actually posting this thread here. I am doing so because I know full well that no matter how much I know about pokémon or how long I personally have played this game at a high level, I cannot accurately say: which ones have remained genuine offensive threats, which ones have not, which ones never were, which ones still aren't, which actually aren't despite having been added in later edits, and which ones actually are despite their not being on the list, you get the idea.
So if you do not have at least two months of quality battle exposure (experience and observation of good battlers, both preferably in ladder play), I do not want you posting in this thread. For the third time, the main reason I'm not updating this myself or taking the word of the 2-3 Inside Scoopers who weighed in in the last few months is because I don't have the time to have played quality battles on the ladder. But also, I feel this an issue deserving of mass opinion, where that mass actually and literally knows what they're talking about.
So, finally, I will restate what I want from this thread so we are crystal clear. I want to know what pokémon are deserving of addition/removal from the (offensive) Threat List, an issue that can only be validly discussed by those with actual, quality competitive battle exposure. Do not post your candidates in this thread without some evidence for either side or I am going to get annoyed and delete your post and probably infract you. And do not post you opinions about someone else's post unless you know what you're talking about yourself and can back it up with numbers and/or experience of your own. As I hinted at above, some of the absolute worst threads in this forum have been Tier threads and this is rather similar in scope.
It may help to post snippets of logs that may prove your point (likely an "addition" point as it's harder to prove a "removal" point with a log). It would very much help to reference weighted usage on Shoddy battle to aid your argument, but if you do, you're still going to have to back up your argument with other evidence and arguments (I am capable of reading and interpreting usage statistics by themselves on my own, in other words). I think it's also a good idea to reread my RMT Announcement and understand the reasoning I had in not adding some pokémon or not going into actual detail about a certain threat's counters or which pokémon work best with which threats. Most importantly, I don't consider something an offensive threat if it is easily walled by "Blisskarm", the standard of defensive walling, as I wrote in March 2007.
As a brief aside, one likely addition off the top of my head is Deoxys-S, and I'm not being a hypocrite in suggesting it because I actually played against it and was paying close attention to battles when it was being tested on the ladder. Regardless, here are the current pokémon on the Threat List:
Tyranitar
Gyarados
Infernape
Azelf
Rhyperior
Electivire
Heracross
Salamence
Togekiss
Gengar
Garchomp
Raikou
Lucario
Tauros
Starmie
Weavile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
PorygonZ
Medicham
Staraptor
Slowbro
Machamp
Jolteon
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Zapdos
Blissey
Suicune
Sceptile
Breloom
Slaking
Tangrowth
Ninjask
Metagross
Heatran
Celebi
Jirachi
Have at it. No tl;dr here—if you didn't read most/all of this post, it probably isn't in your best interests to post until you do.