***[VOTE] Event Moves, Legendary IVs. How "real" do we want it to be?***

One of the less controversial moves on Shoddy Battle was the implementation of Legendary IV combinations.

This is because the Official Shoddy Server attempted to make the game as "close" to the cartridges as possible in terms of the Pokemon available.

The Game mechanics made it such that the legendaries caught in GBA games and D/P can only have a certain IV combination with certain nature because how PIDs (those numbers that dictate ability/nature/gender) is related to the IVs. With this we can see that certain IV + Nature combinations are not possible since there might not be no PID that corresponds to it.

So if we do have a Legendary IV Clause, it would apply to
Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Azelf, Mesprit, Uxie, Dialga, Palkia, Arceus, Heatran, Giratina, Mewtwo, Cresselia, Shaymin (Until 7/19), Regigas (No Event Moves)

It would NOT apply to the following, since they do not follow the standard PID/IV generation OR have an alternate way that does not involve the current known PID/IV mechanisms
Suicune, Raikou, Entei, Ho-oh, Lugia, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Jirachi, Celebi, Mew, Manaphy, Darkrai, Latias, Latios, Deoxys, Regigigas (level 100 only, 100 EV max at any stat, Event Moves), Regirock, Registeel, Regice

The argument for Event Moves was considering "how many Wish Chanseys are left"? The event happened already and it's not SRable like the DP legends. Official, afaik, tried to emulate the cart metagame as closely as possible - and because they didn't know "what IV/Nature" combination were actually remaining. That was the reasoning for the blanket ban on shoddy as far as I know.

Essentially the question comes to this. "How closely does the Smogon Shoddy Server want to emulate the metagame played in the cart?" - are we going to limit the pokemon we can use on the server by whether or not we know it is available in the game cart?

This Discussion will be moved to Stark Mountain after the initial responses by Badgeholders and other selected members.

first one seems needlessly complex and pointless

event moves should be allowed, especially since future event moves can change up the game and make it more interesting.

I agree with what Misty said on the subject of Legendary IVs. It is, in my opinion not worth making team building so much more complicated.

I am for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs, because we are attempting to emulate the cartridges as closely as possible.

By the same token, I am for Event Moves, because we are still attempting to emulate the cartridges as closely as possible. It is extremely unlikely that all the Event Moves we know of are all indeed hoaxes made up by some little kid in Japan. We need to realize that either way, we are not going to be able to perfectly simulate Wish Blissey, etc. until Nintendo makes more information available.

Please follow my format for bold voting, as it will make this thread go very smoothly.

Vineon said:

I agree with what Misty said on the subject of Legendary IVs. It is, in my opinion not worth making team building so much more complicated.

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i am under the impression that shoddy battle can automate what IVs are legitimate so this is a non-issue

Jumpman16 said:

i am under the impression that shoddy battle can automate what IVs are legitimate so this is a non-issue

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Oh thats cool if they all have one IV possibility, if is it the case, but aren't there many possibilities from which you'd have to pick?

Tangerine hints that some combinations are impossible, but there are still many IV plausible combinations, are there not.

I don't see any problems with disallowing impossible IV combinations as they have little effect competitively and doing so does emulate the game. I am voting (in Jump's format) for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs.

I am also voting for Event Moves as they are in the game and anything legally obtainable in the game should be on the simulator, rare or not.

I am for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs, because we are attempting to emulate the cartridges as closely as possible.

By the same token, I am moderately in favor of Event Moves, because we are still attempting to emulate the cartridges as closely as possible. I have a few reservations, but overall, I favor allowing, pretty much for the reasons Jumpman said. We know the IV combinations of at least some event Pokemon, and thus we should, at the least, allow those very specific IV combinations.

I am in favor of cartridge consistent IVs, since if something doesn't exist then it should not be simulated.

I am in favor of allowing Event Moves, since they do exist.

I'm pretty much echoing what Jump said by being for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs. I see no confining reason not to.

On the same note, I'm also for Event Moves. The way I see it, it will open up the metagame a bit more, and future event moves will do the same, possibly to a larger extent. And really, I don't think that there will be some sort of event move that is overly powerful in the future (like Porygon-Z having judgment or something crazy like that), so it seems safe.

I agree that a Pokemon simulator should attempt to emulate the cartridge as closely as possible, and therefore I am in favor of cartridge consistent Legendary IVs.

While the thought of allowing moves that were never in fact given out by Nintendo bothers me, there is no doubt that many of the events were officially sponsored, so I am voting for Event Moves.

Okay, I made sure that the Pokemon that will be affected by the Legendary IV clause is all accurate now.

Anyway, I'm all for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs, and fixing things as we discover the other mechanisms involved. (the Wondercard Mechanism, for one).

I'm all for Event Moves, because I feel that they add variety to the metagame.

I am for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs for the same reasoning as jrrrr. It may sometimes get tedious and annoying but that doesn't mean we should ignore it.

And I'm for allowing Event Moves since some events have been well documenting and banning something like Wish Blissey because something else may be a bit lacking in the documentation department seems a bit backwards to me.

I am cartridge consistent Legendary IVs for several of the reasons listed above. Also it's not as if the IV combinations (found in-game) are all that horrible and unusable. Every Hidden Power is still available and most IVs that with the automation proccess there's no real reason to go against it.

I am also for allowing Event Moves as pokemon such as WishBliss is fairly well documented in at the very least, its existence. Even if detail is sketchy we know they (most of them) happened.

Tangerine said:

Anyway, I'm all for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs, and fixing things as we discover the other mechanisms involved. (the Wondercard Mechanism, for one).

I'm all for Event Moves, because I feel that they add variety to the metagame.

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these are my thoughts exactly. count this as my vote.

I see no reason not to simulate the cartridges whenever possible. Otherwise, I'm not even sure if we're REALLY playing Pokemon as it was designed.

for cartridge consistent Legendary IVs

As far as Event Moves go, to me it feels like the "mathematician vs. engineer" problem. I put myself on the mathematician side, therefore I only care that something is possible. However, Nintendo hasn't made available what is actually possible in their Events. Until we get that information, I feel that we can only go with what we know exists.

for Event Moves for the same reason as Obi

If we can compile a list of event move that still exist, then we have to decide which sources to trust. But if we can somehow decide on whom to trust then I suppose we can attempt to find which event pokemon actually still exist (as in, which specific IV spreads). I have to admit this event thing is a bit obnoxious because there are a lot of people in this topic who apparently disagreed with what we did, even though there was a topic open for a month in which they could have commented, which is creating the impression that we didn't listen to players, even though they simply weren't commenting.

Until there is an effort to make a database of all of the remaining event pokemon from trustworthy sources I am not sure how event moves can be reinstated. The issue here isn't even Nintendo making information available because at best that would tell us which pokemon they gave out on the day (which I doubt they even kept track of) - not which ones still exist today.

I don't like that this is a vote but I support the correct IV-Nature mechanics and support event moves only insofar as specific IV-Nature spreads can be proven to exist today (edit: if these are going to be counted, count this as a vote against event moves because it's probably not practical to actually find which pokemon still exist today, and the ones that do exist are probably too limited to be useful).

[Edit: See also my later posts in this topic for a more extensive argument against event moves.]

I am also for cartridge consistent Legendary Ivs for the numerous reasons already listed. It is annoying to deal with at times but nothing overwhelming.

As for event moves I also believe there is nothing wrong with allowing them as they bring diversity to the game and shouldn't be excluded despite their rarity so i'm going to vote For Event Moves.

ColinJF said:

I don't like that this is a vote but I support the correct IV-Nature mechanics and support event moves only insofar as specific IV-Nature spreads can be proven to exist today.

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for me, it doesnt matter if they exist today. If they existed at some point in time and at that time were legal, then i say we should include them. This also makes our lives much easier in terms of gathering information.

I am for cart consistent IVs, because while it may seem almost trivial, it affects several Pokemon and their Hidden Power needs, so team builders will have to make a choice.

I am also for event moves due to the fast that they do exist, while information is sometimes limited, we can assume the Pokemon exists to be able to use any nature and IVs as there is nothing to prove it either way.

I'm such a rebel.

While I can understand the "let's emulate the games as close as possible" mindset, I don't really see the need to nitpick as far as the legendary IVs are concerned. As Misty said, it's needlessly complex and what purpose does it serve other than to copy the game exactly? Any simulator will never be true pokemon and I think we can draw the line here.

I'd rather be able to verify all the event moves before we said they were allowed or not allowed but since that's next to impossible to do I don't see a problem with using anything we're pretty sure exists.

Carl said:

what purpose does it serve other than to copy the game exactly?

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It doesn't serve any other purpose because that is the purpose. It's like asking "What other purpose does a lightbulb serve than to light my home?".

That's a total broad comparison though. The simulator has other purposes such as the actual battling prospect of it, and this IV thing is just the technicality of it. We're not copying exactly 100% of the game, such as sleep clause, which was implemented to make this a more competitive metagame. We do change things up different from the game. A light bulb's only purpose is to light a home (or for decoration during daytime).

With that, I whole heartedly agree with Carl.

We change things up to improve the competitive game, but we have to start with the game itself and that has to be simulated as best as possible. After all, the number one goal of a SIMULATOR is to SIMULATE.

We simulate a -PART- of the game. The battling part. I don't recall having to start out with a level 5 Pokemon and raising it up. Why complicate things further more, such as those few points don't even affect the metagame as it is.