Policy Review Policy Review - Implementing Tutor Moves on CAP Pokemon

Doug lives in Houston so I imagine he's going through quite a hard time vis-a-vis power and time right now. However, this is a timely and important subject, and should not be horribly controversial.

If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. The posting rules for Policy Review threads are contained here.

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We worked very hard in creating our CAP pokemon and not overloading their movepools with broken moves. However, with more Platinum Tutor information being discovered daily, it gives us a chance to go over old movepools and add or subtract options from them.

So the questions I pose are these:

1. Should we revisit old CAP Movepools to implement new tutor moves?

The new tutors will have a powerful effect on the metagame, and since we want to emulate the metagame to the best we can, considering these moves could be of vital importance.

2. When going over Movepool Discussions and Voting, should we adjust our Level-Up/Egg/TM Move considerations if we implement tutors?

E.g. Less competitively viable Level-Up or Egg Moves in order to cover for Tutor Moves.

I agree with you, Syclant got lots of moves it shouldn't have and with new moves and move tutors coming it seems like the perfect time to revamp our CAP movesets.

Tekken7 said:

I agree with you, Syclant got lots of moves it shouldn't have and with new moves and move tutors coming it seems like the perfect time to revamp our CAP movesets.

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Ironically, most of Scylant's more controversial moves are now Move Tutors.

There's a lot of good stuff there, I just want to make sure we get an idea of what we're heading into.

This is something I think we should do. It will make the metagame a little more balanced.

Maybe we could also make some moves that are new move tutor moves and that are already learned by our CAP Pokemon as move tutor moves.

Apart from completly agreeing with what X-Act said, I feel that since we make these Pokemon ourselves they most likely got every move we wanted them to have that could possible be a tutor in the future, so there shouldn't be any need for us to add moves via tutor apart for flavour and to keep moves off the level up/egg move lists.

Isn't this a bit of a non-issue at the moment, since nothing is implimented on shoddy? Personally I would wait until we do a full revision of the movepools, possibly after this CAP project. As for the issue at hand, We'll have to test some combinations of moves. For example, Earth Power+ Tail Glow Syclant is now legal. This could cause some problems, but we'll see.

Would it necesssarily be? Our pokemon designs aren't from any generation, and not every pokemon that learns a move also learns it from a tutor.

Before I reply to the issue.

Deck Knight you did not follow two of the Guidelines about making PR threads:

1. You do not need to wait for Doug, the specifically said:
"If you wish to make a Policy Review thread, you must first receive approval from a CAP forum moderator"
Right now I think X-Act, Mekkah and Doug are mods in this forum. Even if they were all away you could have waited a few days, its not urgent enough to break the rules.

2. You did not include this in the OP:

If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. The posting rules for Policy Review threads are contained here.

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Please put it in.


Now onto the real issue, I think this depends on whether we want it to appear that the CaP's are from the DP generation. If yes then we should allow some tutor moves, if not then no. I do not see anything that is obviously unbalanced, and if it is, we can simply not give the pokemon that move.

Some of the Pokemon's movepools (read: Syclant) may be revised at some stage, but I see no need to do that at the same time as adding these tutor moves. It could be a simple and quick task to go over each Pokemon and see what Tutor moves apply to them, discuss changes to the list and vote on controversial moves.


I also kind of like X-Acts idea, however it does almost stray into the territory of going against this:
"We are NOT interested in adding anything to the ingame Pokémon world."
A move Tutor is always a character in game... Its probably fine though.

eric the espeon said:

Now onto the real issue, I think this depends on whether we want it to appear that the CaP's are from the DP generation. If yes then we should allow some tutor moves, if not then no. I do not see anything that is obviously unbalanced, and if it is, we can simply not give the pokemon that move.

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Can we arbitrarily say that all CAP Pokemon are from Generation X, which is an unspecified generation in the far future? Not to sound Sci-Fi or anything, but that would make our lives easier because we don't have to worry about tutor moves at all that way.

tennisace0227 said:

Can we arbitrarily say that all CAP Pokemon are from Generation X, which is an unspecified generation in the far future? Not to sound Sci-Fi or anything, but that would make our lives easier because we don't have to worry about tutor moves at all that way.

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Yeah, that would make sense. Making our CAP pokemon from a future generation would leave us with less trouble. If that doesn't work, then it would make sense to give the CAP's their tutor moves. Why wouldn't we give them tutor moves anyways?

tennisace0227 said:

Can we arbitrarily say that all CAP Pokemon are from Generation X, which is an unspecified generation in the far future? Not to sound Sci-Fi or anything, but that would make our lives easier because we don't have to worry about tutor moves at all that way.

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Unfortunately after 3 generations (since Crystal), Tutor Moves have become game canon and an expected reoccurring theme and an important part of many pokemon's movepools. Using DP's Tutors just means we don't have to deal with any more issues like this, oddly, until the 3rd game of a hypothetical 5th gen.

Draco Meteor, for example, is a Move Tutor move that heralded the monstrosity known as Specsmence. We haven't created a Dragon pokemon yet, but do you honestly think we wouldn't have worked in Draco Meteor if we did? All that has really happened is the list of tutor moves has expanded beyond Draco Meteor, Blast Burn, Frenzy Plant, and Hydro Blast.

Deck Knight said:

Unfortunately after 3 generations (since Crystal), Tutor Moves have become game canon and an expected reoccurring theme and an important part of many pokemon's movepools. Using DP's Tutors just means we don't have to deal with any more issues like this, oddly, until the 3rd game of a hypothetical 5th gen.

Draco Meteor, for example, is a Move Tutor move that heralded the monstrosity known as Specsmence. We haven't created a Dragon pokemon yet, but do you honestly think we wouldn't have worked in Draco Meteor if we did? All that has really happened is the list of tutor moves has expanded beyond Draco Meteor, Blast Burn, Frenzy Plant, and Hydro Blast.

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So then officially, all CAP pokemon are DPP pokemon that are unobtainable in-game.

tennisace0227 said:

So then officially, all CAP pokemon are DPP pokemon that are unobtainable in-game.

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Can we say they are like Arceus?

As in, they exist and the game knows how to handle them (hypothetically), but it requires input from outside the game to find them and use them.

Although, this mostly affects Syclant. Super Power + Tail Glow legal and Earth Power + Tail Glow legal, if it meets the requirements for either (which I don't think it does).

I believe that we should update the CaP's upon the release of each new pokemon game. Getting new moves in a new game (even Platinum) is the rule, not the exception, and I don't see why our creations should be stuck in time when nearly every other pokemon is not.

Anyway, I support changing the old CaP pokemon's movepools via poll or whatever once we have all the information regarding new move tutors. Of course, we need to remember to focus on the competitive aspect, and not the flavor aspect.

I agree completely with TAY.

With all this talk about Syclant, Revvy, and Fidgit, I think people are forgetting Pyroak.

It could possibly run Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer/Brick Break (possibly Superpower)/Outrage with a Choice Band. I think that would be a bit scary and maybe get it some more usage because, IIRC, it is the least used CaP.

Tsukikage said:

With all this talk about Syclant, Revvy, and Fidgit, I think people are forgetting Pyroak.

It could possibly run Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer/Brick Break (possibly Superpower)/Outrage with a Choice Band. I think that would be a bit scary and maybe get it some more usage because, IIRC, it is the least used CaP.

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I was also thinking of Iron Defense Pyroak pretty much laughing at everything since with Battle Armor it can't be critted by anything except Rampardos and Pinsir.

But that's not really the point. The point is using this as an excuse to overhaul out previously created CAP, and, especially, to determine whether the Tutor Moves should be part of the CAP5 Movepool Discussion.

I think that really, only Pyroak needs more attacks. Syclant already has a huge movepool that doesn't need anything else. Revenankh can have superpower, but thats just giving it a huge attack for Rev to use. And I can't say much about Fidgit, right now, since it really doesn't need anyting more.

Other then that. I think small changes are ok, but giving them more then 1-2(except for Pyroak. He needs like 3-4) is just going to boost their use.

And to answer those questions

1.Yes we should, but we need to be very careful about what we put on them. Some of them are really close to being overpowerful, and adding more moves could push them to right below where Garchomp was. Thats not saying any of them are comparable to Chomp, but they could very well be similar to what he did to centralized the metagame.

2. I think we should change just 1-2 moves, because while it may make they jsut as strong, it still was voted to be their moveset, and we should at least honor that somewhat. I think it could be fixed, using a simple "this has Ice beam as it's most used Ice attack. We know this can kill like everything, lets give it Icy Wind instead."


But that's just my opinion.

I think we should change their movesets to correspond to the new platinum move tutors. However we don't want to make any of these pokemon broken.

It looks like most people are in favor of adding some Platinum moves to the CaPs, so lets have a look at what we could give them from a flavor perspective:

Bold = Could get
Underline = Debatable
None = Probably not
Italic = Already has it


Syclant:

Dive, Fury Cutter, Icy Wind, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Ominous Wind, Air Cutter, Zen Headbutt, Vacuum Wave, Trick, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Snore, Spite, Helping Hand, Synthesis, Magnet Rise, Last Resort, Swift, Uproar, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Superpower (Only as an egg move), Iron Head, Aqua Tail, Gastro Acid, Wring Out, Outrage, Ancientpower, Signal Beam, Earth Power (Only as an egg move), Gunk Shot, Twister, Seed Bomb, Iron Defense, Bounce, Heat Wave.

Competitive changes:
Thunderpunch would be a bit stronger against Gyrados, but the physical sets were never popular anyway.
Zen Headbutt would be an option on the CB set.. but not much besides Rev would be hit harder.
Vacuum Wave If it gets it it would be a decent option on the Specs set.. But it has high speed already and 40 BP will not take down the things that Focus Blast would.
Trick would give it a one off way to stop Special Walls. (I hope it does not get this.).
Knock Off useless on 'ant.
Sucker Punch would make Physical sets almost viable.
Revenankh:

Dive, Fury Cutter, Icy Wind, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Ominous Wind (Only as an egg move), Air Cutter, Zen Headbutt, Vacuum Wave, Trick, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Snore, Spite, Helping Hand, Synthesis, Magnet Rise, Last Resort, Swift, Uproar, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Superpower, Iron Head, Aqua Tail, Gastro Acid, Wring Out, Outrage, Ancientpower, Signal Beam, Earth Power, Gunk Shot, Twister, Seed Bomb, Iron Defense, Bounce, Heat Wave.

Competitive changes:

The other two punches would VERY rarely be used. Do you want to beat Gyrados so much that you will let Gengar/Salamence/Zapdos/Gliscor/Dragonite/Other Rev/Dusknoir and many more wall you to death? Same goes for Fire Punch stoping Forry (Skarm is dealt with almost as well by Hammer Arm). The only time they would be used is maybe on a CB set, but really that is pretty full. I would hope it got them, they fit the flavor and may give it some much needed varity.

Trick fits perfectly and would be a great boost to a possible CB set.

Sucker Punch, even though it fits the flavor well... it would be very risky to give it this. Its stronger than STAB Shadow Sneak by 20 bp and has almost as good type coverage.

Superpower useless. Some may try it on choice sets but its vastly inferior to Hammer Arm IMO.

Pyroak:

Dive, Fury Cutter, Icy Wind, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Ominous Wind, Air Cutter, Zen Headbutt, Vacuum Wave, Trick, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Snore, Spite, Helping Hand, Synthesis, Magnet Rise, Last Resort, Swift, Uproar, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Superpower, Iron Head, Aqua Tail, Gastro Acid, Wring Out, Outrage, Ancientpower, Signal Beam, Earth Power, Gunk Shot, Twister, Seed Bomb, Iron Defense, Bounce, Heat Wave.

Superpower gives the CB set a valuable weapon. Maybe too valuable..
Zen Headbutt, Iron Head, Gunk Shot, Heat Wave and Seed Bomb all decent moves but Pyroak has little use for them.

Thunder and Ice punch let it sacrifice a moveslot to take out a group of counters. Probably best to keep it off.

Earth Power lets it beat its best counter with ease(Heatran).

Sucker Punch would be an option for the Howl or CB sets, but it sacrifices coverage.


Fidgit:

Dive, Fury Cutter, Icy Wind, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Ominous Wind, Air Cutter, Zen Headbutt, Vacuum Wave, Trick, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Snore, Spite, Helping Hand (lol), Synthesis, Magnet Rise, Last Resort, Swift, Uproar, Mud-Slap, Rollout, Superpower, Iron Head, Aqua Tail, Gastro Acid, Wring Out, Outrage, Ancientpower, Signal Beam, Earth Power, Gunk Shot, Twister, Seed Bomb, Iron Defense, Bounce, Heat Wave.

Trick is the only one with much competitive merit.

If you disagree with any of these feel free to post changes. This is a first draft.

Yeah all the tutor moves are up on official, all we're waiting for is for Doug to implement them. However, I think there should be a simple bold-vote before we go all gung-ho about this.

The thing is, we're trying to get rid of extraneous moves. Why give Syclant the punches when it won't use them? Granted, thats about the only thing I would give it, aside from moves it already has (gulp...Earth Power). Give it STAB+Already Learned moves.

I am adamantly against the punches on Revenankh. We specifically went through a poll or two and decided only to give it Ice Punch. Why give it the punches now if we all said no back then? We also said no to Superpower, and really thats kind of dumb with Bulk-Up. Gunk Shot is meh, but could deal with Pyroak, and Iron Head with Syclant, but thats about it for them. All in all, don't bother except for the already learned moves, STAB moves (not named Superpower) and maybe Trick.

On Pyroak, give it Fire Punch. Redundancy ftw. Pyroak doesn't need anything else, its a great Pokemon already. No Earth Power, as this can already stall out Heatran if It doesn't give it a FF boost. Seriously, you want this to beat it's counter? No. Seed Bomb is a STAB must, you people wanted a physical boost, amirite? Also Heat Wave is fine I guess. Outrage is a "If anyone suggests it I'll rain fiery hell on you" move. Also Iron Defense? Hell no. This thing is a beast already, you want to make this the second coming of Lugia? So yeah, give it STAB+Already Learned moves.

Last but not least, Fidgit. This is the only time I'm going to deviate from STAB+Already Learned. Give it the Punches+Trick+Signal Beam+STAB/Already Learned. Why so much? Well, Trick is the big one. Its supposed to be a pure utility Pokemon, and Trick is utility. Signal Beam is because hands can Signal? Idk, it would only be good on a Specs set. The Punches is for LOL CB, seriously why didn't it get the punches? Not like it needs them. Maybe Bounce from the Prevo? Other than that, the STAB+Already Learned is obvious.

To recap:

Syclant- Icy Wind, Ice Punch, Knock Off, Superpower, Earth Power, Signal Beam.

Revenankh- Trick, Ominous Wind, Knock Off, Spite, Ancientpower, Vacuum Wave.

Pyroak- Heat Wave, Fire Punch, Seed Bomb.

Fidgit- Ice Punch, Thunderpunch, Fire Punch, Signal Beam, Gunk Shot, Earth Power, Trick, Mud-Slap, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Helping Hand, Bounce?

This is NOT happening without organized discussion and vote.

How does this affect movepool construction in general?
How do we update the movepool guide to reflect the guidelines for tutor moves?

After we answer those questions, this needs to be part of the revision threads that are ongoing for the CAP pokemon. To have a revision thread for removing moves, while at the same time adding tutor moves -- that's pointless.

This is way too premature to be throwing out specific movepool additions for existing pokemon. Get this thing organized before attempting to make changes.