Policy Review Policy Review - CAP Revision Process

TAY · Sep 17, 2008

Forum Rules said:
If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. The posting rules for Policy Review threads are contained here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...86&postcount=2

Ok, for a long time there have been questions as to whether the CaP pokemon – specifically Syclant and Revenankh – would ever be reworked to better fit into the metagame. Well the time has come. Tomorrow I will be posting threads regarding potential ways to tone down Syclant and Revenankh. The reason I made this thread is twofold: first, I want to be sure there is adequate interest in this process. It isn’t going to be short (though it really won’t be horribly lengthy either). Second, I want a bit of community feedback on the process I will be using. I already discussed it at length with Tennis, so this is pretty much just fine tuning to get the quirks out and catch anything I might have missed.

I will gauge interest with a discussion in this thread:

Is Syclant overpowered? Is Revenankh overpowered? Why or why not?

It is incredibly important that each player have solid reasoning behind their view, as I will not let this turn into a shitstorm of fallacious arguments and one-line posts. I will sum up my own views later in the thread.

As for the second part, here is my intended process which I discussed with Tennis:
1.)Discussion of whether or not Syclant and/or Revenankh are too powerful (this thread) to be followed up with a bold vote.
2.)Discussion of potential ways to tone down Syclant and Revenankh – once again followed by a poll.
3.)Depending on the results of the poll, there will be a more specific discussion about specifically what should be changed (for example, if we chose to tone down Rev with his movepool, then we would discuss exactly what moves should be changed/replaced).
4.)Finally, an extensive bold vote on exactly what should be changed about Syclant and Revenankh.

Also:
While there are not any qualifications to vote in any of the polls, I would strongly encourage players who are not at least somewhat involved in the CaP metagame to not vote. If you don’t at least understand why this thread is being made, regardless of your opinion of syclant/revenankh, you should not be voting.
I strongly encourage all of you to come play on the CaP server and try out these (and the other) created pokemon, in order to get a feel for the metagame and the way they fit into it. The majority of the people who vote on the CaP projects never play with the pokemon at all, and this is something I would really like to change.
With the exception of this thread, all future threads on this topic will be separated according to the pokemon being discussed (in other words, there will be separate threads for syc/rev).

Ground Rules:

1.)DO NOT talk about Pyroak, Fidgit, the CaP 5 Rock pokemon, or CaP 6. They are not up for discussion.
2.)This has nothing to do with the Platinum move tutors. Do not mention the Platinum move tutors. (The exception here is Earth Power, which Syclant will no longer learn only as an Egg Move assuming we follow the example set by all other pokemon).
3.)Do not go off topic. This seems obvious, but it happens in just about every discussion/poll.
4.)This is a competitive adjustment only. Do not suggest changes regarding flavor.
5.)Please try not to poll jump. I’m taking this one step at a time to ensure that no argument gets left out. I understand that sometimes it will happen, and sometimes it’s even appropriate, but please try to avoid it.

If anyone blatantly ignores the rules, they can count on having their vote ignored in the upcoming polls. This is not negotiable.

As it is mainly to gauge interest and give everyone a basic idea of the arguments out there, this thread will stay open for 1-2 days.

So: discuss why Syclant and/or Revenankh do/do not need to be toned down, and feel free to leave basic comments concerning the whole revision process!

Syclant Reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061818&postcount=3

Revenankh Reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1061822&postcount=5

SoT · Sep 17, 2008

I don't think it's necessary to tone down these guys, we've been playing with them just how they are for a while now, and they're doing fine. If we tone them down, that will just tick off more people that it will please.

Flounder · Sep 17, 2008

I'd be open to a revision process.

Neither Scylant nor Revenankh had the process we have today; there weren't guides, or any real structure. (Moreso Scylant than Rev, but you get the point)

Both movepools probably need a bit of adjusting, and I doubt a stat revision would be highly opposed.

bumfacepik · Sep 17, 2008

The only thing I see wrong with either of them is that they take a learning curve to figure out to counter them effectively. However their move pools could use some slight trimming they have way too much versatility in their sets.

Plus · Sep 17, 2008

I'd like to say that Syclant has a bit too much in it's movepool, and should be thoughtfully edited so that it's movepool or abilities will be less broken. With the addition of Platinum tutors, Earth Power will soon replace HP Ground, making Tail Glow and Earth Power a viable option. Now, this is way too much, meaning that we must take some stuff away from Syclant.

The most used moves from Syclant are Blizzard, Tail Glow, Bug Buzz, Earth Power, Ice Beam, and HP Ground. While you look at the movepool, you can see a lot more viable sets from syclant, including a SD set, or just a main physical set. Note that it's physical side is very big, even though one certain ability makes Syclant so popular-- Compound Eyes. Now, you may ask to yourself, why not Mountaineer? Let's look at what Compound Eyes actually does.

Compound Eyes: Raises accuracy of moves by 30%.

As you can see, Compound Eyes with Blizzard makes for a deadly combo, and with it's unique speed tier, 121, it will outspeed the likes of base 115s such as Azelf and Starmie, along with Gengar at 110, and even things like Dugtrio. With the correct amount of speed EVs, Syclant will always outspeed these pokemon, with the exception of Choice Scarf.

Since it is nearing the time of Platinum, the new move tutors introduced will grant Syclant more power than it has ever imagined. I fear the point where it COULD possibly become as major to the point whereas almost every team packs bullet punch Metagross just to handle syclant.

But hey, there's even more I didn't cover! Let's look at it's second ability, shall we?

Mountaineer: This pokemon takes no indirect or direct damage from Rock type attacks upon switching in. This doesn't block additional effects.

Well, doesn't this thing scream Stealth Rock? Yeah, with Syclant being able to take no damage from Stealth Rock is a very nifty tool. Although you trade a power set for a more defensive one, this ability is used for late game sweeps, and will rip through other potential late game sweepers such as Salamence. Now, even though avoiding Stealth Rock is good, what about Stone Edge? That's right. You switch in Syclant during a Stone Edge, and if Syclant's speed outspeeds your opponent, you will most likely force a switch, leaving you with an opportunity to Tail Glow.

In all, I'd like to say that most of the stuff I have mentioned are not broken to the max, but I really do think moveset cutting is in order. Syclant has way too much, and doesn't need the vast amount of options it gets.

Hyra · Sep 17, 2008

I don't really see anything competitively wrong with either of them. They are both powerful, but not anymore powerful than Gengar, Lucario, Gyarados, or Salamence. Syclant might be a reduction on Fighting Moves available and Revvy might need to lose either Shadow Sneak or ShedRest. That would really be all.

This is assuming new Tutor moves don't affect either's movepool as Syclant with Tail Glow + Earth Power is much more overpowering than it currently is. Revenankh isn't affected as much, Superpower is the only thing that could go on it, along with the Punches, both of which were originally voted off it.

While we are doing this, I think we should trim the size of both movepools to fit with X-Act's Guidelines. Everyone went overboard with Syclant and I added more than necessary to Revenankh.

tennisace · Sep 17, 2008

LOLMUDKIPZ said:
Don't make any changes as we get more ideas how to counter them.

Plus it can make people confused with the CAP team they already have.

Let me for a moment tear your arguement apart. What do you mean ideas on how to counter them? Syclant has been out for well over 6 months, and Revenankh almost that long. If you don't know how to counter them, then please, look at the Analyses because the rest of us know what the counters are. We already know what counters what. So why should we find more counters when all the main ones are known? More importantly, why should we wait until we find out what is known.

Second, the moves and attributes we will be trimming aren't normally used. In the case of already made teams, you won't be able to use them, and it will tell you why. Yes, people will ask "What happened to X?", but that's expected.

Now, I think we should have a clear definition of "broken" before we proceed. Unless we have a solid definition of broken, then we aren't able to determine whether or not something is or isn't broken. This is especially hard for Syclant and Revenankh, because any "counter" of theirs is gone after they stat up. This is especially prevelent with Revenankh, because after three or four Bulk-Ups, your only chance to hit it is while it's asleep, with powerful special moves. It has Shadow Sneak to make up for its low speed and the speed drops that Hammer Arm has. Syclant is the same way, though not as bad. After a Tail Glow, only ultra-defensive steel pokemon can switch in, at great risk to themselves. However, are these "broken"? Do they have an adverse affect on the metagame? Do they need to be changed? These are the questions that need to be answered before we can revise. Obviously I have a list of revisions, but it means nothing until we answer those questions.

Frosty · Sep 17, 2008

I agree with Tennis regarding the definition of "overpowered" here. We need first to estabilish which level of power we want exactly. For example, personally, I consider Revenankh and Syclant to be more powerful than your average OU poke (stuff like Milotic, Electivire, Starmie), but it isn't more powerful than the 600BST monsters, Lucario or Gengar. So basically, when you say "overpowered", do you mean "Top OU poke" or "Uber? There are more stuff regarding that definition, but I believe that Tennis covered them nicely enough.

As for the pokes itself, I have used both extensively on my CAP teams and I must say that I don't find them too powerful, as in, Uber-powerful. BUT I believe they could use some polishing. Syclant could lose some moves, Revenankh (like Hyra said) could lose either ShedRest or Shadow Sneak and maybe some other stuff I haven't mentioned. So I am all for a revision process (and the one provided on the OP is fine by me), even if it is just to make our project look more...professional. Worst case scenario, it will help us adjust the process in case we actually need it in the future to fix a heavily overpowered/underpowered poke.

Just my 2 cents.

TAY · Sep 17, 2008

Yeah just to be clear, we don't necessarily have to make huge changes (though I would support that).

I don't see why we would need to define "broken" or "overpowered" or "has an adverse effect on the metagame." They all mean pretty much the same thing, and we all intuitively know what that is. These terms are all better described by the situations we all experience when using these pokemon, which is why I put such an emphasis on people actually playing the CaP metagame. When Syclant's LO Tail Glow Focus Blast does 80% to Blissey, essentially guaranteeing a sweep with any residual damage, and then outspeeds every revenge killer you have, we intuitively see that something about it is overpowered. When the same pokemon also has the option of a Swords Dance set, or a mixed set, or even a support set, then I believe we can call that "broken." When Revenankh puts the "last pokemon Snorlax" from ADV to shame, we can also tell that we might want to make a change. Even if Rev isn't worthy of Ubers, we have the power to balance out the metagame by weakening him, even if only a bit, and I suggest we exercise that power.

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To me, Syclant is the more broken of the two. Its standard compoundeyes set (Blizzard / Bug Buzz Focus Blast / Tail Glow) outspeeds and OHKO's almost half of OU (20/44 by my count) even without a tail glow, and after a tail glow the only things that aren't outsped and OHKO'd are Blissey, Tentacruel, Deoxys-E, and Weavile (Bronzong and Jirachi with a lot of SpDef can also live). By comparison, Garchomp's standard set only does the same to 13/44; Deoxys-E is 14/44; Lucario is 7/44. HP Ice Infernape gets to 19/44, but it is significantly slower and must use all 4 of its moveslots to do so (also, CC/Flamethrower/GK/HP Ice is by no means the standard set). With Blizzard it can OHKO the Dragons through Yache Berry.

Just to be clear, Compoundeyes only makes Blizzard's and Focus Blast's accuracy 91%, though that is obviously usable.

And all that completely neglects the fact that Syclant also has Mountaineer, another incredible ability, for use with Ice Beam and Superpower instead of Blizzard/Focus Blast. And even that neglects the fact that Syclant also learns: Swords Dance, Stone Edge, X-Scissor, U-Turn (beastly with mountaineer), Crunch, Ice Shard, Poison Jab, Reflect, Earth Power, Roost, Spikes, Taunt, and Roost. Sure, it takes a lot from bullet punch, but Metagross and Lucario have a pretty tough time switching in, and even then Syclant could just switch out.

Without a revision, I believe that Syclant is in fact too powerful for OU, and should be considered for Ubers. However, since it is very possible to revise it without changing the concept or the spirit of the project, I think that revision is the proper choice. At any rate, it certainly isn't "not broken."

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Revenankh isn't as bad in my book, though I still think it needs to be toned down. It has fantastic SpDef, and after Bulk Up its Def is pretty damn tough to get past as well. Togekiss and Moltres are shaky counters due to SR, but Celebi or Cresselia with Psychic can usually switch in and beat it, Skarmory can switch in and PHaze it away, and the now rare Taunt Gyarados scares it away. The problem comes with the fact that almost every pokemon not mentioned is very easy set-up bait for Revenankh, and his counters can only take so much of a beating from entry hazards and attacks on the switch before they break. "Cheap" might be a better word to describe Revenankh than "overpowered"; and although ease of use is no excuse for a revision, I believe that the fact that rev can switch into with little risk and set up on the following OU pokemon should be enough to as for a change: Blissey, Bronzong, Dugtrio, Dusknoir, Electivire, Forretress, Gliscor, Heatran, Heracross, Hippowdon, Infernape, Jolteon, Lucario, Machamp, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Roserade, Scizor, Snorlax, Starmie, Swampert, Tentacruel, Tyranitar, Vaporeon, Zapdos. That's well over half of OU.

Not to mention it becomes essentially immune to all status via Shed Skin. Oh, and its STABs include a priority move, and hit everything in the game for at least neutral damage. And it blocks Rapid Spin. And did I mention this is just one set? It can also run a status set with WoW, and can abuse Air Lock and Moonlight.

This is why I believe that Syclant and Revenankh need revision.

EDIT: I should probably make it clear that my personal thoughts on the matter will not influence the end result of this revision process. I just think it would be a shame to leave my own argument out.

Hyra · Sep 18, 2008

Tay, like I said, the main thing with Syclant is that it gets Focus Blast. Without Focus Blast, it becomes significantly easier to counter (although it is still near Lucario levels of removing counters). It's just that such a high powered Fighting Move allows it to rip through most Special Walls in the game. This now leaves us with TG/Blizzard/Bug Buzz/HP Ground as the best set (unless we are stupid and give it the Earth Power tutor). I know HP Ground is only 20 less BP than Earth Power, but this should be enough to keep Syclant from being too overpowering. If not, either Compound Eyes or Tail Glow has to go to weaken the power of the main STAB attack.

I think the simplest switch to Revenankh would be to make it unable to use Rest. Shed Skin overwhelmingly won the ability poll (unlike Compound Eyes which came in second), so I don't think its really fair to the process to remove Shed Skin. This pretty much neuters its recovery, since it is either Toxicable and Burnable or has 33% recovery sometimes. Shadow Sneak is debatable too because it removes the checks of faster Ghost types, who can switch in on Bulk Up/Hammer Arm, only to be hit by a Shadow Sneak that kills or incapacitates you.

(just for reference, when I was on the server [stupid marching band and two AP classes eating life], I never had problems with either of these because I had Gyarados, ScarfGar, and ScarfTran who are some of the best counters to these two.)

eric the espeon · Sep 18, 2008

mm.. I have been playing with all of the CaPs since the very beginning and personally... I do not think any of them are quite strong enough as they are to need nerfing, however with some, relatively small, reduction in power they should be a lot more easy to handle, and fit better into the OU metagame.

Syclant

I think if we dropped its speed to a more manageable level so that things like Modest ScarfTran, Duggy, Alakazam and maybe even the base 115's can revenge kill it it would be very much more easy to handle, just a slightly better Infernape with different STABs. For me its speed is what has always been the thing that lets it do so much better than other mixed sweepers.

Also its movepool is shallow. Yes, shallow. If you take away one of its main moves it has nothing to replace it with and ends up entirely walled by so much its not funny, maybe this will be better with the introduction of EP tutor but trimming any of its main competitive moves is not a good idea IMO. It would change Syclant too much.

What it REALLY does need is having its semi competitive movepool (Good moves that are not that useful on 'ant, but look scary to a new player) revisited.. and its non-Competitive one (useless moves that just don't fit.)... they are utterly crazy...
Knock Off, Icy Wind, Water Pulse, Taunt, Light Screen, Dig, Reflect, Thief, Roost, Drain Punch, Flash Cannon, Fly, Spikes, Air Slash, Counter... and so many more..
These make it look like we piled every move we could onto it, which we probably did.

Revenankh

Many people complain about ShedRest or its movepool (Specifically Bulk Up and Shadow Sneak), but I think cutting down ether of those would change it beyond recognition. What could be done to make it less impossible to take down once it setts up would be a reduction in SpDef, even a smallish drop would make it much more easy for Special Attackers to revenge kill it.

But... from experience if you don't respond right to Rev (or import a non-CaP team and its not ready) it will sweep you badly. However once you learn what to do against it Rev is not that bad right now IMO, without changes is is not too much of a problem.

Also there should probably be a PR thread to discuss exactly how to revise the Pokemon before one about what Pokemon need revising and what to do to them.

Do we want a TL type person to head the revision of each Pokemon? If yes, how are they chosen? What polls should take place? how should the threads be organized? ect..

X-Act · Sep 18, 2008

I'd just like to say that if any of the CAP Pokemon's movepools do not conform to the "Create-A-Movepool" thread I posted, then the movepools should be changed to conform to it.

Another thing you need to consider is that Syclant's Base Stat Rating is 593, or 'Fantastic'. Very few Pokemon in OU have a base stat rating higher than this. I think our CAP Pokemon shouldn't have a 'Fantastic' rating without crippling them in some way, and, as far as I know, everything about Syclant was given to him to help him, not to cripple it, starting from its movepool and ending with its abilities. If we go with what eric the espeon said, lowering its speed to base 115 would reduce its BSR to 569 (Excellent), which could also be a consideration.

TAY · Sep 18, 2008

@Hyra: Syclant learns the 100% accuracy Superpower (and has higher physical than special attack), so I don't see how just taking away focus blast would solve that. It even has swords dance! Even if we take away Focus Blast and Blizzard, it could still run a successful SD set and just use Mountaineer with SD/Ice Punch/X-Scissor/Superpower OR Crunch, or a support set: Taunt/Reflect/Light Screen/Spikes, or an immune-to-SR countersash, or a mixed set: Ice Beam/Bug Buzz/Superpower/Stone Edge (Earth Power when Platinum comes out). Granted any of those would be weaker than the special set, but the point here is that Syclant's problems run deeper than just removing one move can solve.

Also, as X-Act pointed out, Syclant's stat's are pretty crazy...

Code:

Cresselia.........837: Fantastic
Salamence.........814: Fantastic
Garchomp..........813: Fantastic
Celebi (et al)....630: Fantastic
[I][B]Syclant...........593: Fantastic[/B][/I]
Metagross.........591: Fantastic
Zapdos............580: Fantastic
Dragonite.........563: Excellent
Blissey...........551: Excellent
Tyranitar.........549: Excellent
Gyarados..........403: Very Good
Gengar............371: Very Good
Lucario...........356: Very Good
Deoxys-E..........352: Very Good
[I][B]Revenankh.........300: Very Good[/B][/I]

So statwise, Syclant is currently the second best offensive pokemon in CaP OU. And considering Syclant beats any of these in movepool hands down (with the possible exceptions of Blissey and Tyranitar), I would say we have some fixing to do.

Also regarding what X-Act said about movepool: Syclant's Egg Move pool does not conform to the example set by other pokemon (and explained by X-Act) in that either five or six of the moves are top-notch competitively (it depends on if you count Air Slash).

Here is a link to X-Act's (very helpful) movepool thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40085

-------------------------------

Although I have pointed it out before, something to keep in mind is that the revisions need not be large. Even if you only want Revenankh to lose one move and 5 base DEF points, that would still be a "yes" for revision in the upcoming poll.

sbc · Sep 18, 2008

I think Syclant needs serious toning down. First and foremost we need to get rid of all those supporting moves that it has that do not fit it and make the movepool look like a fanboy's dream.

In terms of the competitive movepool and stats, I'd cut Syclant's speed and put it at 105, at least to make it easier to halt a sweep and I'd also get rid of its fighting moves and maybe Earth Power as well.

Many things like Scizor, Forrestress, Hariyama, Poliwrath, Heatran and Blissey would be able to significantly stop it better without any fighting moves and at this moment are 2HKOed by TG'd Focus Blast.

Mountaineer was IMO a ridiculous inclusion, a case of having your cake and eating it, having voted for a Bug/Ice pokemon, removing Mountaineer would certainly nerf Syclant but I don't think that it needs to be removed for sure.

So roughly

Attacks to go:
Air Slash, Brick Break, Earth Power, Fly, Focus Blast, Light Screen, Reflect, Roost, Spikes, Superpower, Taunt

==============================

As for Revenankh, I don't think it is even broken at all. It is only needs the slightest adaptations to common OUs to stop it, Metal Sound Zapdos, Taunt DDgyara, CM Cresselia, Perish Song Celebi, Taunt Gliscor CM Jirachi, Taunt Skarmory, Staraptor and Togekiss also do well.

It's also OHKOed by CB Metagross Zen Headbutt after 1 bulk up and not to mention the fact that Fidgit comes in, Taunts/Encores and just kills it with Earth Power.

It's not at all hard to beat with the slightest adaptations. Shed Rest is maybe "too good" but it still has a 40% chance of being vulnerable for 2/3 turns. Toning down its Special Def would be perhaps fair but nothing more than 5-10 base points.

Eh, probably not too eloquently worded :/

eric the espeon · Sep 18, 2008

SkarmBlissCounter said:
I think Syclant needs serious toning down.
It needs a little changing, but I don't think we should overdo it.
First and foremost we need to get rid of all those supporting moves that it has that do not fit it and make the movepool look like a fanboy's dream.
Yes. This is needed very much.

In terms of the competitive movepool and stats, I'd cut Syclant's speed and put it at 105, at least to make it easier to halt a sweep and I'd also get rid of its fighting moves and maybe Earth Power as well.
Now.. Think about what that would mean, Syclant (Special) would now be extremely vulnerable to all Fire and Steel types without a secondary type weak to its STABs (Random stuff like Arcanine and Lucario would be able to stand up to it.). Remember that both types resist both of its STABs. Every special wall that it did have some chance against (Blissey beat it anyway if it had FThrower, Tenta beat all but Specs EP, Regice would now stop it..) now it has no hope against these.
And removing 16 speed points, from above Dugtrio to below Infernape, will hurt its ability to sweep so severely.. Remember how bad defensively it is? Well without great speed (yea 121 is too much, but 105?) it would be exposed to a vast array of attacks and revenge killers.

Many things like Scizor, Forrestress, Hariyama, Poliwrath, Heatran and Blissey would be able to significantly stop it better without any fighting moves and at this moment are 2HKOed by TG'd Focus Blast.
(Underlined those that already counter TG Syclant, if played correctly) Do we need the list of sure fire counters to grow so much? Things like NP Infernape and SD Lucario have arguably fewer counters, but what makes them manageable is the fact that their speed is low enough to revenge kill without to many problems.

Mountaineer was IMO a ridiculous inclusion, a case of having your cake and eating it, having voted for a Bug/Ice pokemon, removing Mountaineer would certainly nerf Syclant but I don't think that it needs to be removed for sure.
Yep.

So roughly

Attacks to go:
Air Slash, Brick Break, Earth Power, Fly, Focus Blast, Light Screen, Reflect, Roost, Spikes, Superpower, Taunt

Underlined the ones I agree with. Focus Blast OR Earth Power (please not both) could go if people really want them to.... it would harshly nerf the both TG and Specs sets (IMO too much if combined with a large speed drop), but all fighting moves? Not needed.

tennisace · Sep 18, 2008

Agreeing with SBC on some of the moves. I think there are three big items for both Revenankh and Syclant.

Syclant:

1. Lower the speed to 115.

We all know it's necessary. I would consider raising the Special Defense a point if everyone REALLY wanted it to have an even BST, but it doesn't need it. The 115 is big, as it can now no longer outspeed Sceptile/Dugtrio/Starmie.

2. Get rid of extraneous moves.

The moves I believe to be on the table are: Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Night Slash, Rock Tomb, Steel Wing, Roost, Drain Punch, Stone Edge, Swords Dance, Rock Slide, Flash Cannon, Fly, Spikes, Counter, Air Slash, Crunch. These are all extraneous moves and should go.

3. Get rid of Compoundeyes.

What? Yes. Get rid of it. Give it Honey Gatherer for all I care, but this shouldn't have two abilities that are completely amazing. We made Mountaineer, and Mountaineer won the poll, so it should stay by default. However, Compoundeyes needs to go. This alone will knock down Syclant's power because if it wants an accurate Blizzard it needs Hail support.

Revenankh:

1. Lower it's Special Defense by 10 points.

Yes, 10. This way it is more easily killed by special attackers, since physical attacking is futile after a Bulk Up or two, short of a CB Rampardos Zen Headbutt. 10 Points won't kill it, as it will still be base 100, but it will be more "mortal" (No pun intended.)

2. Again, get rid of the extraneous moves.

Moves up for question are: Arm Thrust, Power Whip, Mach Punch, Memento, Knock Off, Night Shade, Force Palm, Rock Slide, Moonlight.

3. Get rid of LockLight.

Why not ShedRest? ShedRest is more unreliable IMO. Shed Skin won in the ability poll anyways. Revenankh doesn't need Air Lock for weather, since it already carries leftovers. It doesn't need a second option for recovery.

Thats what needs to be done in my opinion. They aren't "broken" now, but they are way more powerful then they should be.

sbc · Sep 18, 2008

Eric, Syclant can just as well run HP Ground / Fighting to beat those Steels / Fire types (and Lucario isnt taking +2 Ice Beams and the only OU fire type is Heatran and the most common steels are still getting hit neutral by its STABs see Skarmory, Metagross, Bronzong etc)

It still has the option of Hidden Power but of course it means that Forrestress etc can suddenly stand up to a 70 BP move instead of 120 BP.

With say Tail Glow / Ice Beam / Bug Buzz / HP Ground
You still have very few surefire counters, but at least it is walled reliably by Blissey, Snorlax, Scizor and Forrestress which cannot be said at present.

ParadOxymoron · Sep 18, 2008

(Why was it EVER made so that Syclant takes no direct damage from Stone Edge and other Rock attacks on the turn it switches in? I really just don't think that this is acceptable. Stealth Rock, fine. But when you make it so that it takes no damage from Stone Edge, not to mention that on top of Stone Edge, any STAB-moves from our friendly neighborhood Rock Special-sweeper to be, you're taking a Pokémon that should be weak to this type immune to this type upon switching in?! That's just an extremely shifty and awkward thing to keep in effect, and I truly believe that it should be changed to only prevent damage from Stealth Rock.)

tennisace · Sep 18, 2008

ParadOxymoron said:
(Why was it EVER made so that Syclant takes no direct damage from Stone Edge and other Rock attacks on the turn it switches in? I really just don't think that this is acceptable. Stealth Rock, fine. But when you make it so that it takes no damage from Stone Edge, not to mention that on top of Stone Edge, any STAB-moves from our friendly neighborhood Rock Special-sweeper to be, you're taking a Pokémon that should be weak to this type immune to this type upon switching in?! That's just an extremely shifty and awkward thing to keep in effect, and I truly believe that it should be changed to only prevent damage from Stealth Rock.)

Actually, its almost never used. Most people use Steel/Fire attacks on Syclant.

eric the espeon · Sep 18, 2008

2. Get rid of extraneous moves.

The moves I believe to be on the table are: Thunder Fang, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Night Slash, Rock Tomb, Steel Wing, Roost, Drain Punch, Stone Edge, Swords Dance, Rock Slide, Flash Cannon, Fly, Spikes, Counter, Air Slash, Crunch. These are all extraneous moves and should go.

Mostly fine, but I think that Sword Dance and at least one of the rock moves should stay so not to undermine its Physical movepool entirely.

3. Get rid of Compoundeyes.

What? Yes. Get rid of it. Give it Honey Gatherer for all I care, but this shouldn't have two abilities that are completely amazing. We made Mountaineer, and Mountaineer won the poll, so it should stay by default. However, Compoundeyes needs to go. This alone will knock down Syclant's power because if it wants an accurate Blizzard it needs Hail support.

At first I thought this was stupid, remove a ability that also won the poll? And that is much less used and weaker than Mountineer? But after reading the Ability poll part 2, I think there should be a vote on the matter. I will vote to keep Compoundeyes because it gives Syclant some variety, and is not at all broken IMO.

1. Lower it's Special Defense by 10 points.

Yes, 10. This way it is more easily killed by special attackers, since physical attacking is futile after a Bulk Up or two, short of a CB Rampardos Zen Headbutt. 10 Points won't kill it, as it will still be base 100, but it will be more "mortal" (No pun intended.)

Fair enough.

2. Again, get rid of the extraneous moves.

Moves up for question are: Arm Thrust, Power Whip, Mach Punch, Memento, Knock Off, Night Shade, Force Palm, Rock Slide, Moonlight.

I disagree with this. We should NOT cut our Pokemon's movepools down to the bare minimum to sustain the common sets. Rev's movepool is fine from both competitive and flavor aspects. All of those moves fit and none are too powerful.

3. Get rid of LockLight.

Why not ShedRest? ShedRest is more unreliable IMO. Shed Skin won in the ability poll anyways. Revenankh doesn't need Air Lock for weather, since it already carries leftovers. It doesn't need a second option for recovery.

I disagree with this to. Just because Rev does not "Need" it does not meen we should take it away, its not good reasoning in the least.
Air Lock and Moonlight were voted in as the second ability and unless it is a problem for balence or flavor reasons we should not take it away.

Edit: ParadOxymoron there is some interesting back story to that, the ability was changed by the TL (Cooper) between polls

From Ability poll part 1
Ice Shell- User takes no indirect damage upon enter into battle (specifically damage from Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock damage is neutralized).

The last post in that thread (after votes had closed) was this:

Automatic said:
It's ridiculous that it affects Spikes AND Sr AND Ts, one would be good, all 3 is ridiculous.

I voted for Ice Absorb, it's the least broken/still helpful on something with these stats.

This whole thing seemed kinda cool when it was first started, it's a shame it turned into "create a broken poke"

From Ability Poll Part 2
Ice Shell- User takes no damage from direct and indirect Rock moves upon switching in (i.e. Stealth Rock, Stone Edge, etc.).
Part of the way through the second poll Cooper posts This and edits the OP. Later he posts This which changes the name of the ability.

tennisace · Sep 18, 2008

Rock moves should go. What other pokemon has moves that they're 4x weak to, aside from Dragonite and Gyarados, who have a shitload of random moves anyways. Either Swords Dance or Tail Glow has to go, because no pokemon gets both, and can use both. Well, Infernape can, but it's stats are much lower than Syclant's. As for Revenankh's moves, meh, but Mach Punch really needs to go, or Shadow Sneak. Also, even though I like LockLight, it really needs to go. This will help balance it because then it gets no recovery in Sandstorm.

omgthatkid · Sep 18, 2008

Personally, I'd have to agree that they need to be tone down, however I don't agree with many of the approaches.
Compoudeyes is used way less frequently than Mountaineer, so I don't think that should be taken away.
Also, I just love an accurate Blizzard.
My Syclant approach:
Reform its movepool. Take away the unnecessary and excess moves.
Also, I'd imagine a spread like: 70/110/70/120/65/115 would be a bit fairer, taking the cake in terms of OU mixed sweeping. It's rated at Excellent. 115 would allow Syclant to outspeed Gengar and Tauros among others, while only tying with Starmie, Azelf, and others. It has a decent chance to 2HKOing Blissey with Focus Blast, which I like.

For Revenankh, I think we ought to make it more offensive and less defensive.
The reason it's so powerful is because it has bulky defenses that allow it to bulk up several times and take hits, while having an incredibly reliable form of recovery.
I think taking five or ten points from Special Defense and allocating them to Attack would be ideal, because I felt like running a Choice Band set once, and 105 is a rather disappointing number for that.

eric the espeon · Sep 18, 2008

tennisace0227 said:
Rock moves should go. What other pokemon has moves that they're 4x weak to, aside from Dragonite and Gyarados, who have a shitload of random moves anyways.

It fits well enough with flavor, things do get moves they are 4x weak to if they fit. The moves are not too strong. I see no reason to remove them.

Either Swords Dance or Tail Glow has to go, because no pokemon gets both, and can use both. Well, Infernape can, but it's stats are much lower than Syclant's.

Well you've just disproved your first point.. and saying that because nothing can do to yet is an extremely poor argument for this not being able to do it.
Also Infernape has arguably better STABs, and 4 STAB 120 base power moves (Close Combat, Fire Blast, Focus Blast and Flare Blitz) to make up for lower attacks..
Anyway its not like Syclant can't be better than 'nape...

As for Revenankh's moves, meh, but Mach Punch really needs to go, or Shadow Sneak.

Please explain this, they are both very low BP and are incompatible with each other. They are very viable options but I do not think they are to strong, maybe SS could go... but it does not "really need" to. If you think it does please explain why.

Also, even though I like LockLight, it really needs to go. This will help balance it because then it gets no recovery in Sandstorm.

ShedRest is from my experience FAR more common, to deal with Status and is overall a superior recovery option than LockLight.
LockLight was voted in fairly, does not have flavor issues and is from my, and most people I have spoken to's, experience not as powerful as you suggest.

I do not think that removing LockLight will harm it much but I see no reason to remove it. And a good few to keep it.

DougJustDoug · Sep 18, 2008

Syclant

From day one, Syclant was built to be like Infernape. A frail-but-powerful sweeper/wall breaker. It was a consistent theme during the creation threads and it is the closest thing to a "Concept" that we had back then. I think we should focus on tweaking Syclant to be more like Infernape in terms of usability and power. Right now, Syclant is much better than Infernape in every category, except perhaps defensive capability. And that is debatable...

With that in mind, I think we should make the following changes. Each change is explained with a comparison to Nape:

1. Lower the speed. I think 115 is the highest we should go here. Speed is so incredibly important in the metagame, that even a point or two can make a huge difference. Syclant's 121 is just obscene, considering everything else the Ant has going for it. We could just set it to 108 and be obvious with our Infernape imitation. Arguably, it should be a little slower than Nape, since Ant has much better attacking stats. But, I think Syclant's defensive shortcomings justify a higher speed. Starmie has offensive versatility, is bulky, and it runs at 115 -- so it's not too obnoxious to put Syclant at 115. Any higher than that is too much.

2. Take a hacksaw to Syclant's movepool. Infernape has a huge movepool as well, so I'm fine with all the variety. Access to Swords Dance and Tail Glow is sometimes mentioned as overpowered -- I don't think so. Nape runs SD and NP, and doesn't dominate excessively. Tail Glow would not be criticized as sharply if other aspects were toned down.

Just get rid of all the unused support moves and unnecessary attacks like Air Slash, Crunch, Flash Cannon, Knock Off, Spikes, Water Pulse, etc. Make it conform to X-Act's guide. IF we do that -- I DON'T CARE HOW -- then it will be fine. But, for those of you that have not tried to make a movepool according to the guide -- be aware that Syclant will lose a LOT of moves. This is a good thing. I don't care which moves it keeps and which moves it loses. Just make it have a reasonable movepool, as defined by the guide.

3. Don't touch Syclant's abilities. I would not oppose Compoundeyes being removed, but I don't advocate it. Syclant's Blizzard is unbelievably powerful. I'm constantly amazed at the amount of damage it does to opponents, even those that resist it. I can't tell you how many logs I see where the opponent D/C's after they see how much damage their wall takes from a SpecsAnt or LO Ant Blizzard, and they realize that it comes with near-perfect accuracy. But, this is the ability you get, if you decide to play Syclant with a 4x weak to Stealth Rock. If you are willing to play with that burden -- which is crippling really -- then I think it's fine that you can hit stuff like a truck, with little risk of missing.

Mountaineer should not even be up for discussion. I know people think it is a fanboy dream. But I think Mountaineer is essential to Syclant's viability in the metagame. If you took away Infernape's Fighting type, which would make it 2x weak to SR -- it would be just as worthless as all the other Fire types in the game. SR weak pokemon are at such a huge disadvantage in the metagame, it's not even funny. If Syclant is guaranteed to be 4x weak to Stealth Rock, it is nerfed beyond recognition. Leave Mountaineer alone. Besides, I spent a long time writing the code for it, and I don't want it to go to waste...

Revenankh

Revenankh is too powerful because it is too easy to play and there is only one option for it. The Bulk Up/Hammer Arm/Shadow Sneak/Rest set is the best set by such a wide margin, it's ridiculous. And the set almost plays itself. It requires very little strategy or prediction. And, if you catch a player unaware, or if their Rev counter is gone -- it will completely sweep their team. There is almost nothing you can do to prevent it. You can't sacrifice pokemon by chipping away at it. You can't status it. You can't explode on it. Basically, if you do not have the right pokemon alive and ready -- you lose. It's that simple.

This is not quite as broken as Garchomp, for example, because if you have the right pokemon, you can prevent Rev from setting up and wear it down. With Chomp, even the perfect counter likely had to be sacrificed to take it out. Rev is not that awesome. But, I still think it needs to be toned down. If anything, to introduce some variety and skill into playing with Revenankh.

1. Get rid of Shadow Sneak. If we remove just this one move from Revenankh, it changes the pokemon completely. For users that still want access to a Bulk Up set, they can run BU/Shadow Punch/Mach Punch/Rest. That set can be effective, but not gamebreaking. It allows many more pokemon to be used against Revenakh, WITH PROPER STRATEGY AND PREDICTION. Rev still hits everything neutral or better, it still has access to a priority move after Bulking Up, and it still can ShedRest status and healing. But, by shifting the priority move over to a Fighting move and reducing the BP of the power move -- it makes the Bulk Up set much less of a guaranteed play. Perhaps we'll see more AirLight sets with Hammer Arm/Shadow Punch? Perhaps we see more Ice Punching Revenankhs? I don't know. But, with Shadow Sneak in the mix -- there is really no way to decentralize Revenankh usage.

2. Lower the Special Defense. Rev is too perfect. There is no pokemon in the game with Rev's amazing combination of dual STAB's, defensive prowess, reliable recovery, attacking power, and the ability to boost both sides with a single setup move. Maybe Cresselia, but even she is still Pursuit weak, has a single STAB with poor coverage, and lacks high-BP attacking moves. Suicune is another comparison, but only has one attacking STAB, and lacks reliable recovery. Snorlax is somewhat comparable, but is saddled with an attacking STAB that doesn't hit anything SE, and has no easy recovery. Revenankh really stands alone with its complete offensive/defensive package.

I don't want to remove ShedRest, therefore Revenankh needs to take more damage when hit by special attackers. With a lower SpDef, you could chip away at Revenankh through special attacks and possibly stay in the game. Right now, that isn't really an option. If you don't hit Revenankh hard for SE damage, you are completely screwed. It will set up, ShedRest away the piddly damage and then sweep your entire squad without a sweat. Nerf the Special Defense to bring this pokemon back down to earth.

bumfacepik · Sep 18, 2008

Revenankh has curse and bulk up. How about just giving it curse? This would mean that it wouldn't be as easy to sweep with. A small change but it might be one more thing Revenankh needs. Also I agree with all of dougs proposed changes.

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