Naked in the Rain

Many teams do not prepare for rain sweeper teams, and the ones that try to simply pack an Empoleon/Vaporeon, pokes that are quickly overwhelmed by the tremendous pressure this team my sweepers apply. Rain abusing teams have gained quite a bit in Platinum, with the decline of Tyranitar/Hippowdon, and Celebi, and the banning of Deoxys-S, so my sweepers don't have to run as much speed. And who doesn't love dancing? I would love suggestions on pokes to change, better EV spreads, or even how I should change my playstyle (though that may be a bit difficult). Onto the team!


Azelf @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Rain Dance
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Explosion

All too important starter, a role that really can make or break this high risk/high reward team. Bulky/speedy Azelf allows me to set up essentials to a rain team and suicide (though if usually doesn't right away. It's a bit predictable now).

U-turn is probably the best move the 4th generation brought. With this team, I must stay in the advantageous postion, and Azelf's (along with Scizor's) U-turn are perfect moves to do just that, scouting the opponent for items/switches/moves, and switching appropriately. Speaking of Scizor, these two work excellently together early in the game. Azelf can stand up to many common leads, Tyranitar/Aerodactyl are U-turned-->Bullet Punch, opposing Azelf sashes are broken-->Bullet Punch (most won't Fire Blast right away, nor would they Trick another Azelf). If I U-turn out, Azelf is usually fast enough to get Stealth Rock up later.
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Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Roost

A slot that was always a problem pre-Platinum, but Scizor has earned it's spot here. It's synergy with Azelf has already been explained, but it also gives a decent counter to Celebi and Tyranitar, two hindrances to rain teams. Roost may be a bit unnecessary. Scizor is usually Bullet Punching or U-turning out. Suggestions for the fourth slot are greatly appreciated.
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Bronzong @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/84 Atk/132 Def/40 SDef
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Hypnosis
- Rain Dance
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion

Perfect for turning the game around at any point in the battle. Another RMT called this Bronzong the best transition poke in the game, and rightfully so. Bronzong is a godsend for any offensive team that needs to get back on it's feet. With it's great defenses and resistances, Hypnosis to Rain Dance to Explosion is incredibly easy. Emphasis on Defense because Gyarados is a MAJOR offensive threat to my team. If it gets a Dragon Dance under Rain my team is going down fast.
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Ludicolo (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Focus Punch

Usually the first sweeper to come out. Max speed neutral nature for 239 speed (478 in Rain ties with modest Scarfgar) is usually good enough, and Ludicolo can take hits from Scarf Gengar/Azelf anyway. Surf/Ice Beam is self-explanatory, Energy Ball over Grass Knot to prevent Vaporeon from stalling (the extra base power for Gyarados is missed though).

Focus Punch, however, is a very fun move to have. Blissey/Snorlax are less common switches than Vaporeon/Celebi, but it's always good to have. One punch puts Bliss in panic mode, either Softboiling furiously, allowing me to set up another sweeper, or paralyzing me while it takes another punch (barring paralysis bullshit).

Ludicolo is also tasked with the job of beating down Empoleon/Vaporeon/Celebi, major threats to rain teams. Even if Ludicolo is stalled out, another one of my sweepers can usually set up on Vaporeon/Celebi (you probably know who).
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Kabutops (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 64 HP/252 Atk/192 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge

The grim reaper of my team, Kabutops is usually the one who claims the most lives. Max attack, speed for Jolly Tyranitar in Sandstorm (something Kabutops loves too), and HP for some survivability (can take a Mixpert Earthquake).

No X-Scissor here though. For some reason, Kabutops never meets Celebi (he used to before a lot on one of my older teams), even if it's to lure an X-Scissor and switch to a resist to waste valuable rain turns and wear me out of Life Orb recoil. Aqua Jet has proven its worth against suspected Scarfers and Specslukes in the rain, and Swords Dance Life Orb Aqua Jet is more powerful that you think. Also because Kabutops is operating under sandstorm about 40% of the time. 244 speed is not fast enough sometimes, and most people do not expect it (Infernape coming in to revenge me when there's no rain? ha ha ha).
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Kingdra (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Waterfall

Holy shit thank you so much Platinum. I dislike the metagame for my other teams, but for this team Platinum is amazing.
Bulky Kingdra is such a dangerous sweeper, considering what people use to stop it (Vaporeon/Celebi/even Zapdos) that Kingdra can set up nicely on when one-on-one. Substitute to prevent status from the likes above, other moves are self-explanatory. I usually wait until very late in the game so Outrage confusion doesn't screw me.

What is the recommmended speed for DD Kingdra though? Rain is not going to be up 100% of the time (something most rain teams assume) and as of right now, it's sitting at 207 speed, not a lot at all even after one DD in Sandstorm. I do love the bulkiness however.
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There are several things that really fuck this team up and ruin the momentum:
-Empoleon: sigh Empoleon. Even if I mention a couple times that Empoleon is usually overwhelmed, it is still a huge problem to this team, so much that I've considered Poliwrath. Suggestions for dealing with the BL (at least) penguin are greatly appreciated.
-Gyarados: offensive threat. Just don't let it set up!
-Zapdos: especially Scarfed starters or Life Orb variations. No Electric resist hurts a lot.

And on my part:
The early game is by far the most important point for this team. If I mess up at the beginning, I have a hard time coming back. Bronzong is all to important. Any idea on how to deal with Gengar and Zapdos leads (and a non-scarfed Togekiss lead tore my team apart?).

Just wond'ring, What would you do if someone runs the Weavile anti-lead set (Fake Out/Night Slash/Taunt/Counter-Sash)?
He'd KO Azelf easily, and just counter any Bullet Punch attempts by Scizor, Taunt Kingdra and KO, Taunt Kabutops and KO, Taunt Bronzong and Counter, or do a fair amount of damage to Ludicolo.

I'm inclined to switch Kabutops if anything, for a counter to those 'mon listed.
IMO, you'd do well to have something abuse the rain in the form of Thunder. While not essential, if the weather's there, why not take advantage of it? ;)
Somthing like a Mix'vire would work well, with Thunder>Thunderbolt. He also gives you an electric immunity, and HP Ice or Ice Punch (depending on your mix) helps with Zappy there. Since most Zapdos' are geared towards taking hits from Scizor nowadays, I'm inclined to think that HP Ice would do more.

I like the way HP Fire on Celebi isn't an issue on Rain Teams ;) but do be careful when the rain isnt up, you could find yourself in a lot of trouble if Celebi HP Fires your Scizor, if will do 71-84% damage, more than enough to finish you off after tou've switched into Stealth ROck twice or taken any other Kind of residual damage. Under the rain you dont need to worry about it at all it will fail to 2HKO even if you take SR damage on the way in. As for the fourth slot, Roost might be a good idea, it will allow you to keep on top of things and maintain Scizor as a presence on your team. You say you use it Early in the game, if you do keep roost it may allow you to clean up late game as well. Other suggestions would be Swords Dance which seems a little unnessecary seeing as you alreay have two powerful physical sweepers, or Pursuit which is a hangly little move, it especially says "FU" to Scarf Gar and may help revenge kill things like Starmie, if you fear it may retreat. Overall I think I would go with Roost, it helps you with your LO damage and will maintain Scizors surviverability.

As for Empoleon, and Zapdos Specifically they are always going to be a bit of a bugger to set up on. Some people do run teams with Tar / Zapdos etc... who really will screw over most of the rain teams you meet, as they just cant do much too them. I guess you could wear it down with Ludicolo or even make Ludicolo a Sub Seed Rain Dance one, which wont always be effective but will help you stall out Gyarados, Zapdos and Empoleon if nessecary. Dishing out the odd Ice Beam to Zapdos every now and then obviously to stop it from roost stalling back lol. I must admit I've never run sub seed Ludicolo so I cant say its worked amazing for me. Slapping Toxic on Ludicolo will also help against Zapdos, but not so much Empoleon. My advice is just make sure you set the SR up and keep consisitant prressure on them.

Apart from that this seems like a very generic Rain team, that will have the same problems all rain dance teams have, except that it does look like you have built it very well, so I commend you for that. if you have any more specific problems feel free to come back and ask ;D

I really like this team... like ALOT!

Azelf ---> Scizor sounds cool, so I'll leave that alone. Just note that Azelf has fast U-turns and Scizor has slow U-turns. Keep in mind that Scizor can Rain Dance also, which makes getting your Swift Swimmers in easier with his slow U-turn (and he lures in Fire attacks which grant easy switches). For example, if you Rain Dance with Azelf and then U-turn, your sweepers have to take a hit and that can be bad!

Focus Punch on Ludicolo is fucking genius! I've been using Ludicolo on my Rain teams and completely forget he gets Focus Punch since Blissey ALWAYS switches in on him! Dudeeeeeeeee thanks man! You could probably drop some of his speed and put that into attack, as nothing really sits between his max speed of 239, and 210 which is the bare minimum recommended. Rain teams dislike Breloom, so you could go at 232 to beat them and +base 90 scarfers in the ran.

Kabutops is win. I would probably switch to Jolly nature and 280 speed to outrun Lucario and that large portion of pokemon outside of the Rain, including Life Orbed Adamant Gyarados before it DDs. If you find you lose too much power from it than keep Adamant, but Jolly makes you THE fastest thing in the game under rain, and gives you a good benchmark outside of the rain.

For Kingdra, I tried running a bulky substitute Dragon Dancer like that on a Rain team, but in most cases it ended up wasting Rain more than abusing it. In the end I settled on Mixdra... the dangerously effective Rain sweeper that leaves nothing but destruction in its wake. Test this out and see if you like it:

Kingdra (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk/16 Spd/240 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Waterfall
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Dance

Since you have rain support, Dragon Dance can be an option in the last slot, which will let you continue your sweep if the Rain ends... but don't get greedy with it. In most cases, your better of just nailing things with Hydro Pump, which will outdamage Waterfall significantly. Draco Meteor is just a powerful attack which nails Salamence, and gives you a good shot at a OHKO against offensive Gyarados. Also something to note, Celebi and any bulky water except Vaporeon, that switches into a Hydro Pump will lose enough HP to be in range for Draco Meteor to KO.

So for your problems... Scarfed Zapdos is a bitch for Rain teams and Togekiss can hurt too. My best suggestion is Jolteon, who counters them quite easily and will absorb T-waves aimed at your sweepers. Specs Jolteon can work, but a Rain Dance + Thunder Jolteon can also work too since hes fast enough to get your team back on their feet if the rain dies to early. It will also help with Gyarados, as Adamant Gyarados is outsped and OHKOed after a DD. The only place I could see him fitting in would be to replace Azelf and lead with Scizor or Jolteon. Then you can slap Stealth Rock on Bronzong over hypnosis so you can go Rain Dance, Stealth Rock, Explode. As far as Celebi / Vaporeon is concerned... Qwilfish owns them both, easily 2HKOing Celebi with Poison Jab (for some reason people switch Celebi into qwilfish wtf), or beating Vaporeon with Swords Dance + Poison Jab or just blowing up. Qwilfish also absorbs Vaporeon's futile attempts at Toxic, and will absorb annoying Toxic Spikes. Just a few things to think about...Hope all this helps!

Ludicolo (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 20 hp / 100 atk / 252 spA / 136 spe
Mild nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Surf / hydro pump
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Focus Punch / drain punch

the ev's give 210 speed, when rain is active is 420 ( outruns standard modest scarftran by at least 30 points )
the extra attack gives ludicolo more power behind focus punch
the hp ev's give ludicolo slightly more bulk since it already has decent defenses

hydro pump will deal more damage in the rain STAB + rain boost = base power of 240
drain punch could be a better option with the extra attack ev's, you wont have to worry about losing focus either

its a quite complicated spread but will be very effective ( even in OU )

DarK LamenT said:

Just wond'ring, What would you do if someone runs the Weavile anti-lead set (Fake Out/Night Slash/Taunt/Counter-Sash)?
He'd KO Azelf easily, and just counter any Bullet Punch attempts by Scizor, Taunt Kingdra and KO, Taunt Kabutops and KO, Taunt Bronzong and Counter, or do a fair amount of damage to Ludicolo.

I'm inclined to switch Kabutops if anything, for a counter to those 'mon listed.
IMO, you'd do well to have something abuse the rain in the form of Thunder. While not essential, if the weather's there, why not take advantage of it? ;)
Somthing like a Mix'vire would work well, with Thunder>Thunderbolt. He also gives you an electric immunity, and HP Ice or Ice Punch (depending on your mix) helps with Zappy there. Since most Zapdos' are geared towards taking hits from Scizor nowadays, I'm inclined to think that HP Ice would do more.

Click to expand...

Thankfully, Weavile isn't a very common lead. I did meet one once however, and it took down my Bronzong after being taunted. I guess I would probably switch to Bronzong right away to take the Fake Out, and Gyro Ball as it Taunts. At 1 HP, I would probably switch to Scizor to take a Night Slash and BP it to hell.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions everyone. I will definitely try Raikoulover's Kingdra set, as Vaporeon isn't that much of a problem as I made it out to be. I've used Quilfish as a suicide Rain Dancer and it failed, but I will definitely look at it again as a Celebi and Vaporeon counter. I will change my Ludicolo EV spread (less speed, more attack).

Haha I had the exact same pokemon on my rain team.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47556


Great minds think alike, no? I strongly suggest you have a look at that - some of the suggestions in there are just as appropriate for your team, and are too long to rehash all of them here.

There isn't too much I can recommend without turning this into my own team, but I'll see what I can do.

I strongly suggest you try out fully Special Kingdra. A physical Kingdra is strong, but wait till you have enough power to OHKO bulky Zapdos with Hydro Pump or Surf. Every other pokemon on your team has a way of handling Blissey, be it Explosion, Fighting moves or just high powered physical moves. Let Kingdra be the all out special sweeper it wants to be and I assure you you'll love it.

Your Ludicolo (BEAUTIFUL!) acts as an excellent lure for special Kingdra's counters. Focus Punch takes out Blissey and Snorlax, while Energy Ball takes out Vaporeon, Suicune and Gyarados. Once these are gone, Kingdra can rip through a team with ease.

Your team lacks a good deal of bulk. Although it can demolish an opposing fully offensive team, it will most likely encounter problems facing anything with even a moderate amount of bulk. Therefore I strongly suggest you drop the speed on your rain abusers down to 225, to outrun +1 Adamant Salamence in the rain. This will let your pokemon survive quite a few neutral hits and makes them a lot less susceptible to priority attacks (aka Extremespeed Lucario, who you currently have quite a big weakness to).

Also, when using rain you cannot leave anything to chance. If you do not have your rain up, you will lose. Simple as that. The abundance of Tyranitar and Hippowdon will mean that you simply cannot win with only 2 rain dancers. On my rain team I had 5, and still I sometimes wished my Kabutops had rain dance. Rain is central to teams like this, and so it is impossible for you to be over-prepared when it comes to rain dancers.

Bronzong's EV spread is a bit haphazard. Try 252HP, 128Def, 128Atk. Max HP obviously, and Defence is preferred in the rain seeing as most Fire type moves are Special anyway. Hypnosis' reliability has taken a severe beating with that 10% drop, so in the end you will be screwed over more times with Hypnosis missing and ruining you than you getting a lucky desperate sleep. Also, on a team as fast paced as this, you should not be messing around with weak attacks like Bronzong's Gyro Ball. Therefore you should consider dropping them for the screens, which will greatly improve the chances of your other pokemon pulling off a sweep.

For your Scizor, once again I recommend running Rain Dance in there somewhere. Personally I would drop Roost, as once again, you will simply not have time to heal yourself. Swords Dance is also very welcome over U-Turn, but U-Turn has equal merit in the safe switch in, so since you seem to prefer that I'll leave it alone. But what I will mention is that on a rain team, Scizor cleans up like nothing else. Since Scizor and the swift swimmers have similar checks (Vaporeon, Gyarados, Zapdos, etc), during the course of the battle your team's high power attacks will break through these pokemon, allowing Scizor to be extremely menacing in the end game.

Um... not too much else to say really. Like I said, check out my RMT for more suggestions if you are having some trouble. I had an extremely good record with that team, getting up to 24th on the ladder in a couple of days.

Lastly, just want to say that this looks like an extremely well thought out and solid team. Good luck with it!

LR.

I assure you Legacy Raider, I didn't copy your team at all! that is some excellent advice

Changing Bronzong's EV spread. The attack was for sure OHKO's on Gengar, but I guess Bronzong has better things to do. The screens are a good idea.

Kabutops' role is to break those teams with even a moderate amount of bulk. It is also one of the main checks to Swords Dance Lucario.

I made a couple of my pokes to do well under Sandstorm or normal conditions. I realized that I shouldn't assume rain is up at all times, as that would be death to the team. Two rain dancers is usually enough, but a couple of times I had Bronzong and Azelf faint very early. Rain Dance may be good over Roost, which would help the new Kingdra set I will try (since it is not made to work under all conditions). I haven't decided what to do. Kingdra can run so many sets, but I will definitely go mixed or all special.

Kingdra set changed to Raikoulover's set with Rain Dance over Dragon Dance, with mixed results. Ludicolo really is an excellent lure for it's counters, but I do miss the insurance against Celebi/Vaporeon sometimes.

Just one bump. I really put a lot of effort into this team!

love your team, it looks real real real well thought through. Azelf lead is a bit generic, though it works, so i won't argue there. With Scizor, try a CB Scizor or a Rain Dance Backup Scizor because personally i feel your team would prefer either one to a B-Punch/U-Turn/Superpower/Roost, that set seems to be geared to denting the opponent and getting rid of things like TTar, etc, CB Scizor gives you power, Pursuit, and +1 Superpower for the confirmed 2HKO against +1 Curselax, while he can't screw you over with Fire Punch due to Rain, but your team also likes backup Rain Dance, i think mainly because Ludi scrapped Rain Dance for Focus Punch,

(which is fucking cool btw dont change it)

Bronzong consider Reflect/Light Screen/Stealth Rock over Hypnosis/Gyro Ball mainly because i don't like Hypnosis's accuracy (even though i love using it) and Gyro Ball's damage over Bronzong's other support options. IMO Gyro Ball isn't really going to dent many things anyway.

I'm glad you changed Kingdra, the substitute seemed to work against the Rain plus i tried it and i normally didn't get the chance to DD, so i lost the Rain and didn't gain DD to offset it, normally, which sucked. you said mixed results though, i'm interested to know the bad outcomes of using Mixdra, as i think you can probably play around those outcomes.

Kabutops is nice, i like how you changed it to suit SandStorm conditions, it seems to really work for you, so i won't say anything.

i looked into your problems bit too...

There are several things that really fuck this team up and ruin the momentum:
-Empoleon: sigh Empoleon. Even if I mention a couple times that Empoleon is usually overwhelmed, it is still a huge problem to this team, so much that I've considered Poliwrath. Suggestions for dealing with the BL (at least) penguin are greatly appreciated.

Well personally i've had Ludicolo deal with a lot of Empoleons, then one little agility drill peck fucker screwed me up. Empoleon does slow down Rain Teams, and most can't do anything to Ludicolo, the physical versions are downed by Scizor's superpower while they are unable to outdamage him.

-Gyarados: offensive threat. Just don't let it set up!

Gyarados might be a threat to you, but Bronzong can explode on him, Ludicolo's Energy Ball 2HKOs, Kabutop's Stone Edge screws him up, whatever. I find that Gyarados finds it hard to setup in Rain Dance teams due to the overwhelming amount of offense coming from them. The only thing it can safely setup on is Scizor, and when that happens, go Zong immediately, take note of the damage he causes with waterfall, and reflect/explode accordingly. I normally wouldn't switch in Ludi or any of the other team members at this point to avoid slowing down their lategame sweep.

-Zapdos: especially Scarfed starters or Life Orb variations. No Electric resist hurts a lot.

With Zapdos, Jolteon could help as suggested, yeah it's a bitch to RD teams, but Kingdra can screw it up with Hydro Pump+Draco Meteor. Scarfed starters are easy to spot since they outrun your Azelf, I use Scizor (strangely enough i find myself doing it despite Zapdos being a 100% Scizor Counter) to weaken him, let him kill me, then finish up with Ludi's Ice Beam, starting Ludi's sweep in the process. I feel what this team fears most isn't Scarf, nor Life Orb, but SubRoosters. You'll be hard pressed using Ludi/Kingdra to break Zapdos since they're incurring residual damage along with Thunderbolt damage along the way, and not many pokes on your team can take Zapdos 1 on 1 if it subs.

actually when i think about it, Jolteon goes a long way in playing out these three threats. ThunderDancing in the lead slot can remedy Scarf Zapdos/Gyarados leads, and Empoleon is met with a swift Thunder that can bring it down quickly. Jolteon takes a decent amount of special attacks with Base 95 Special Defense, and is a great addition to your team. Definitely take Raikoulover's suggestion into serious consideration.
oh and your problems with Togekiss? Non-Scarf Togekiss tend to throw thunder wave around, Scizor takes those thunder waves and whacks back hard with Bullet Punch, enough for Ludi to finish up with ice beam when the rain is on. i don't have much of a suggestion at the time being for scarfed ones, perhaps i can think about it and get back to you?

just a few more considerations,

Qwilfish @ Life Orb
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
Moves:
Swords Dance
Waterfall
Poison Jab
Explosion

SD qwilfish is surprisingly speedy, even without rain, hitting 295 speed, it soaks up toxic spikes which tend to come with stall teams that have grown in number recently, and takes toxic from Blissey and Vaporeon and beat both with SD powered STAB attacks. Poison Jab hits neutral/super effective for great damage on the darndest things, think celebi, breloom, skymin, etc.

anyways i really really hope my comments weren't repetitive/unhelpful and i wish you great luck with your team.

Tested Focus Punch on ludicolo... awesome. Focus Punch + Surf is a 2HKO, provided you use 120 Atk EVs (thats what I used, with the other 136 in speed).

I'd definitely go with Pursuit over Roost on Scizor. Roost just doesn't seem to fit this offensively minded team.

I turned away from Choice Band Scizor at the beginning because I hated giving things free switch ins (because this team can't switch in much itself) but I will definitely try it out now. I guess it's all about prediction. Bullet Punch,U-turn,Superpower, Night Slash/Pursuit/Quick Attack? It doesn't need Rain Dance now that Kingdra has it.

Will try out Bronzong with Reflect over Hypnosis. Hypnosis just tends to piss me off, and when it does hit, people tend to leave the poke in to be Exploded on.

Everyone has been a lot of help. Thank you so much.

Edit: Safeguard on Bronzong? What really stops my sweepers is status, both paralysis and Toxic. I completely forgot about Safeguard until now.

Never mind about the CB Scizor. If Azelf U-turns to it, Scizor is locked into U-turn. I completely forgot about that. Is 4 Life Orbs too much?