CAP 6 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[darkie]

This is our Pokémon:

Originally Posted by Fat Concept

Name: Decentralizer
Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

Type: Water / ???


For the record, the current top 10 on the CAP server are:

1. Stratagem
2. Revenankh
3. Fidgit
4. Tyranitar
5. Zapdos
6. Syclant
7. Blissey
8. Heatran
9. Scizor
10. Pyroak

I'm conducting this poll a little differently than my predecessors. This is the DISCUSSION thread. Please refrain from making votes in this topic (because they will not count). You can make those posts in the voting thread.

Discuss the secondary type of CAP6.

For the record, the results of the main type poll:
Water - 60
Ground - 26
Fighting - 14
Electric - 5
Dark - 1
Ghost - 1
Steel - 1
Fire - 1
Poison - 1
Total votes: 108

Water won since it overwhelmingly had over the 50% of the votes necessary to win.

[Serenity]

Well, since we are checking the top 5, I think fighting would help. This will get rid of Heatran/Bronzong/Blissey, and whatever is in top 5-10.

Eh, Rev may wall it to an extent, but.. give it a few moves to defeat it and it should be good.

[linton]

Water covers a lot of the Top 10 already but if we add flying:

1. Stratagem - Water
2. Revenankh - Flyng
3. Fidgit - Water
4. Tyranitar - Water
5. Zapdos - Problem
6. Syclant - Flying but need to watch out of ICe BEam
7. Blissey - Depends on Physical or special
8. Heatran - Water
9. Scizor - Problem but it now resits Bullet Punch, U-Turn, X-Scissor, Iron Head and Superpower (not too sure on that). So Scizor can't do much
10. Pyroak - Flying

So flying moves help cover a lot of them but Zapdos is a huge problem. HP Ice could work but if we make it Special, Blissey becomes a pain.

[haterguy]

Wow this is easy. Dragon

simple because

-it has an advantage over heatrans fire attacks x4 resitance
-one weakness which is dragon
-it holds off zapdos nicely.
-resist bullet punch
-scares away t-tars and many.

it's pretty simple, Dragon/Water will hold off almost every threat in that list.

Water/Dragon plz

[jagged_angel]

Really, that simple? So why isn't Kingdra more common on the CAP server, if simply having that typing checks all those threats? This pokemon needs some key resists, not just alot of neutrality.

[haterguy]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Really, that simple? So why isn't Kingdra more common on the CAP server, if simply having that typing checks all those threats? This pokemon needs some key resists, not just alot of neutrality.

The concept is recentralizer.. and it stops most of the pokemons in the top 10 in the CAP server.

key resists? didn't I list them:

-4x resistance to heatrans fireblast, neutral to common hp ice, and neutral to hp grass and earth power
-x2 resistance to bullet punch
-x2 resistance to zapdos heatwave

many more..

Also a simple stat change could increase the use of water/dragon in the CAp server, instead of using kingdra.

[tennisace]

Fighting seems good for the metagame, as Serenity said. I like it now.

[hydrolphin]

I like Fire right now. Water/Fire is good offensive typing as its only walled by Dragon and Water, one of which can be covered with Ice Attacks. Also Fire gets that lovely x4 multiplier against Scizor/Syclant.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat haterguy

x2 resistance to common hp ice

???
Last time I check Dragon is weak to Ice.

[yohoe]

Fighting,
-can take out 6 of 10 top 10
-Great coverage

[ANinyMouse]

Of those top 10 Pokemon, the offensive types you're most likely to take from them are, in no particular order:

Rock
Ghost
Fighting
Ground
Dark
Electric
Grass
Bug
Ice
Fire
Steel

11 types out of the 17 are common.

Water is of course weak to Grass and Electric. The way I see it, you're not going to reliably counter all of them in one Pokemon by typing alone. However, there are a lot of way you can go, depending which threats you feel are the most important to check. Keep in mind that resistances are not necessary to counter an attacker.

Water/Fire will most likely NOT stop: Zapdos, Strategem, Tyranitar
Pure Water will most likely NOT stop: Zapdos (Pyroak debatable)
Water/Ground will most likely NOT stop: Zapdos (Pyroak debatable)
Water/Dragon will most likely NOT stop: (not obviously inhibited by typing)
Water/Electric will most like NOT stop: (not obviously inhibited by typing)
Water/Grass will most likely NOT stop: Syclant, Scizor


None of the other typings seem good enough to stop enough of the top 10.

So of those, Water/Electric & Water/Dragon have the potential to cover the most threats by typing alone. Obviously, you're going to need some bulky defenses to stop several neutral hits, but we're not that far yet with the process.

I'd say Water/Fire gets the novelty option here, though it isn't ideal since Strategem/Tyranitar are not daunted at all.

With a Water type, you only have so many options to consider if Zapdos is a concern. Otherwise you have to give up on reliably countering it and concentrate on other threats.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat hydrolphin

I like Fire right now. Water/Fire is good offensive typing as its only walled by Dragon and Water, one of which can be covered with Ice Attacks. Also Fire gets that lovely x4 multiplier against Scizor/Syclant.

EDIT: ???
Last time I check Dragon is weak to Ice.

Yeah, but it loses to Stratagem, Tyranitar, Fidgit, and Heatran. That defeats the purpose.

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat haterguy

The concept is recentralizer.. and it stops most of the pokemons in the top 10 in the CAP server.

key resists? didn't I list them:

-4x resistance to heatrans fireblast, x2 resistance to common hp ice, and neutral to hp grass and earth power
-x2 resistance to bullet punch
-x2 resistance to zapdos heatwave

many more..

Oh dear, get your type chart right. There are Not 'many more'
Its a 4x Fire resist and a 2x Steel resist. That's It.

Aside from Bullet Punch, Steel is not used so this pokemon only usefully resists Fire.

Zapdos' Heatwave is a 4x resist as are All Fire moves >_> But it would just use a neutral Thunderbolt.

Fighting on the other hand gives a very useful Rock resist which will help switching into Strata and TTar. Its type coverage is impeccable unlike Dragon which adds No coverage.

[hydrolphin]

Originally Posted by Fat ANinyMouse

Of those top 10 Pokemon, the offensive types you're most likely to take from them are, in no particular order:

Rock
Ghost
Fighting
Ground
Dark
Electric
Grass
Bug
Ice
Fire
Steel

11 types out of the 17 are common.

Water is of course weak to Grass and Electric. The way I see it, you're not going to reliably counter all of them in one Pokemon by typing alone. However, there are a lot of way you can go, depending which threats you feel are the most important to check. Keep in mind that resistances are not necessary to counter an attacker.

Water/Fire will most likely NOT stop: Zapdos, Strategem, Tyranitar
Pure Water will most likely NOT stop: Zapdos (Pyroak debatable)
Water/Ground will most likely NOT stop: Zapdos (Pyroak debatable)
Water/Dragon will most likely NOT stop: (not obviously inhibited by typing)
Water/Electric will most like NOT stop: (not obviously inhibited by typing)
Water/Grass will most likely NOT stop: Syclant, Scizor


None of the other typings seem good enough to stop enough of the top 10.

How will Water/Fire not stop T-Tar and Stratagem? STAB Surf/Waterfall?
And why won't Zapdos stop Water/Grass? It completely walls it?

Oh and a 4x resist against Heatran's Fire Blast covers up any boost it will get.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat hydrolphin

How will Water/Fire not stop T-Tar and Stratagem? STAB Surf/Waterfall?
And why won't Zapdos stop Water/Grass? It completely walls it?

Oh and a 4x resist against Heatran's Fire Blast covers up any boost it will get.

What does Water Grass do to Zapdos again? Zapdos can Thunderwave and just shut it down. Also, Water/Fire might have STAB Waterfall/Surf, but what good is it if it can't switch in? Still weak to Rock/Ground, and you lose that nice Water resist.

[haterguy]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Oh dear, get your type chart right. There are Not 'many more'
Its a 4x Fire resist and a 2x Steel resist. That's It.

Aside from Bullet Punch, Steel is not used so this pokemon only usefully resists Fire.

Zapdos' Heatwave is a 4x resist as are All Fire moves >_> But it would just use a neutral Thunderbolt.

Fighting on the other hand gives a very useful Rock resist which will help switching into Strata and TTar. Its type coverage is impeccable unlike Dragon which adds No coverage.

Not saying fighting is bad, but resistance to rock is good.. but water/dragon isn't really that bad up against Stratagem as it provides a water typing and could scare it away depending on stat spread, if it is bulky enough to take hits from Stratagem.

Take in this:

Fighting/Water still gets hit by Stratagems thunderbolt which is a problem. It could also get hit by it's grass attacks

Water/Dragon is neurtral to both thunder and grass attacks.

Stratagem's rock attack could be a big threat.. but Water/dragon will handle it nicely. (like I said depending on stats spread)

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat haterguy

Fighting/Water still gets hit by Stratagems thunderbolt which is a problem. It could also get hit by it's grass attacks

Take in this: You've obviously never been on the server because I can assure you that there is no self-respecting battler on the server that uses Thunderbolt because of the sheer lack of type coverage. You'd more likely find a Giga Drain Tech Stratagem, and you have bigger problems to deal with if you see that.

[Goodbar]

I'm gonna go with ghost, which we can craft to take on rev, though the combo resists the stabs of heatran, syclant, and scizor and it can probably be a decent check on ttar and stratagem. Oh and it threatens fidgit. So vote for ghost!

[hydrolphin]

Originally Posted by Fat haterguy

Not saying fighting is bad, but resistance to rock is good.. but water/dragon isn't really that bad up against Stratagem as it provides a water typing and could scare it away depending on stat spread, if it is bulky enough to take hits from Stratagem.

Take in this:

Fighting/Water still gets hit by Stratagems thunderbolt which is a problem. It could also get hit by it's grass attacks

Water/Dragon is neurtral to both thunder and grass attacks.

Stratagem's rock attack could be a big threat.. but Water/dragon will handle it nicely. (like I said depending on stats spread)

Last time I check, Suicune gets hit by Stratagems t-bolt and grass attacks. Suicune came out just fine. Dragon adds nothing offensively, which CAP6 needs as Water is a defensive typing.

[X-Trader]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Fighting seems good for the metagame, as Serenity said. I like it now.

[Solstice]

Yes, but Fighting as a STAB move takes down 5 of the top ten, while Dragon takes down none. With Water included, it takes down 7 of them, 8 if it has Stone Edge. Water-Dragon takes down 5 only, so if the Pokemon only needs two STAB moves to take down the majority, we can focus more on other tactics to make it more diverse.

[The Business Man]

Haha, well I'm just gonna throw Electric out there. Lanturn could be an amazing Pokemon if it only had better stats. Thus, a powerful Water/Electric Pokemon could be extremely handy.

The only problems I see with Water/Electric would be Ground weakness and neutrality to Rock and Fighting. If we give this thing enough Speed to outspeed most Ground users (especially those in the Top 10) it could/work be an awesome Pokemon. Give it a recovery move (Recover or Slack Off could fit) and I could see this being a great Pokemon. Kind of like Cresselia with less super-powered defenses.

Thoughts?

[Ancax]

Water/Electric actually sounds interesting, except it will probably have trouble against Grass types, since most Grass types have the defensive "oomph" to take a couple Ice Beams. Also, it's STAB moves are resisted by Dragons, but that is a much smaller problem.

[Goodbar]

Originally Posted by Fat AdamV2

Haha, well I'm just gonna throw Electric out there. Lanturn could be an amazing Pokemon if it only had better stats. Thus, a powerful Water/Electric Pokemon could be extremely handy.

The only problems I see with Water/Electric would be Ground weakness and neutrality to Rock and Fighting. If we give this thing enough Speed to outspeed most Ground users (especially those in the Top 10) it could/work be an awesome Pokemon. Give it a recovery move (Recover or Slack Off could fit) and I could see this being a great Pokemon. Kind of like Cresselia with less super-powered defenses.

Thoughts?

I considered this at first but now it isn't as effective at dealing with heatran or syclant, and doesnt really give it any resistances to any other top tier OU pokemon. Looks like another reason to use zapdos ?_?

Also you people should really stop saying "weak to [attack type]" and start saying "weak to [pokemon]"

[Kamen Rider]

Im going advocate Water/Ghost. Now I know what you are thinking "Ghosty fighting, that makes it weak to 2 of the top five. Have you gone nuts?! Bedlam, chaos Cats and Dogs living together!!!"

Please understand that I am asking this for specific reason and that is Revanank. Revenank needs to start fearing his other 2 weakness besides flying. Now you may be wondering why choose ghost when Rev can threaten it with Bulk/SS. The key her is to build a check that can safely come in on this combo and have the right combination of ability,build and moves to threaten a KO without fear. There are ways to do it but I cant really outline it without blantant poll jumping. What I think we should shoot for with this combination is allow it to KO Rev while still being threatened by the faster special ghosts and psychics(wielding shadowball) restoring the balance Rev has throw off.

Likewise while Tar can threaten with Dark, its water aspect with the right build will still serve as a strong check, without completly dominating Tar. Im going to require a little faith that there is method to this suppose madness but if you need more convincing lets look at the rest of the list.

Fidgit, Heatran, Blissey, Pyroak and Zapdos really dont care about the change and while Pyroak can threaten, I think being #10 and the least centralize onthe bunch is alright. I know Zapdos is also a major concern, but the combo at least doesnt let the bird come in on an Immunity or Resist on either attack. Further down the process steps can be taken to less the Zapdos threat.

Now Sylacant and Scizor, get both of there stabs resisted, not the main purpose but nice.

The major thing this doesnt do is if you look at the pokemon CaPs OU is lacking compared to standard, this shouldnt keep anyone of them off the list with the build we should be shooting for (Ok Donphan and Forrtress still cant be decent rapid spinner but the Rotom-A would keep them down anyway.)

I know this is going to take some faith but I really cant say here what other aspects of the build would be to correct the problems it may have. If you really want to know, you can ask me at the CaP Server

[haterguy]

Originally Posted by Fat hydrolphin

Last time I check, Suicune gets hit by Stratagems t-bolt and grass attacks. Suicune came out just fine. Dragon adds nothing offensively, which CAP6 needs as Water is a defensive typing.

It actually really depends on the stat spread, if this is going to be a bulky pokemon, i'm gonna say Water/Dragon to hold off most.

Offensiveley, I'll probably choose Fighting/Water, but since this is to 'prevent' the top 10 list, i'm going with water/dragon.

Yes, but Fighting as a STAB move takes down 5 of the top ten,

I thought this was to prevent the top 10 pokemon listed?
STAB isn't really important, as dragon still handles some nicely.

e.g Blissey still gets hurt by Outrage, Dragon Claw, Dragon Rush, etc. Nicely

also fighting doesn't necesarilly have to be the STAB to the top ten pokemons listed.

1. Stratagem - gets handled by water/doesnt have to be fighting
2. Revenankh - immune to fighting neutral to dragon
3. Fidgit - x2 resistance to fighting
4. Tyranitar - x4 weakness to fighting, still gets handled by water
5. Zapdos - resisted by fighting
6. Syclant - x2 weakness to fighting
7. Blissey - x2 weakness to fighting
8. Heatran - x2 weakness to fighting (most run scarf versions, so pointless)
9. Scizor - neutral
10. Pyroak - neutral