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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by darkie, Dec 5, 2008.

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  1. haterguy


    Sep 19, 2008
    Pretty much why I was vouching for Water/Dragon, it will hold off with everyone, it doesn't have to be everyone but it holds off 8/10 in that list.

    It decentralizes the top 10 listed.
  2. Bogmire


    Jul 6, 2007
    it'd have to be faster than zapdos otherwise zapdos will roost/pressure stall it.
  3. Bass

    Bass Brother in arms
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 25, 2007
    Guys, don't go off hunting for "poll-jumpers". Normally, I would be more strict about posting possible moves as reasons to support a certain type, but I am going to be a bit more lenient about what is poll-jumping and what isn't, solely because moves ARE somewhat dependent on type, and more importantly, the concept that we are working with requires us to create a pokemon that counters/checks a specific set of other pokemon, so certain moves, if they pertain to the type, can be used as justification for supporting a certain type.

    However, don't get too presumptuous. Saying that "oh, this type can't counter <pokemon> with its STAB, so it will surely get <some move>" is NOT proper justification for your secondary typing choice.
  4. 1059860


    Jan 20, 2008
    Why are people voting for Fighting?

    1. Stratagem - Already covered by Water.
    2. Revenankh - Fighting is completely useless.
    3. Fidgit - Covered by Water; Fighting isn't very effective.
    4. Tyranitar - Already covered by Water. Although Fighting is 4x effective, just for this thing isn't a good enough reason to use Fighting over Ghost.
    5. Zapdos - Water is Neutral; Fighting is Not Very Effective.
    6. Syclant - Both Water & Fighting are Neutral.
    7. Blissey - Super Effective with Fighting, but as long the attacks are Physical, STAB Water will do fine. If it's special, Fighting wouldn't do much anyways (Try Focus Blast from Infernape/Gengar on Blissey... Doesn't work very well.)
    8. Heatran - Water covers it.
    9. Scizor - Both Water or Fighting are Neutral.
    10. Pyroak - Both Water or Fighting are Neutral.
    Now, reasons for GHOST as 2nd typing: Visit my other post at http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1647053&postcount=77

    Shadow Claw has higher base power.
  5. Icy Vegeta

    Icy Vegeta

    Mar 27, 2008
    For all of you Fighting voters, do you want Togekiss to became top OU again, cause that is what you are asking.
  6. linton


    Apr 21, 2007
    Flying does better then Fighting does anyway. The only issue is Zapdos which Fighting has anyway.
  7. haterguy


    Sep 19, 2008
    Haha, this one is funny. This one is a problem, but you don't create an ability to render electric attacks, when you could switch out. This ONE pokemon doesn't have to hold off the entire list.

    That is not preventing it from attacks.. you are just hoping for a fire move.

    You can't say give it this move or that, it has to hold it off and 'decentralize it' and not depend on a move.
    Grass attacks will own it from Pyroak.

    I'll convince Water/Dragon for some people here it is:
    1. Stratagem - Water
    2. Revenankh - Can hold it off neutral to attacks
    3. Fidgit - Water
    4. Tyranitar - Water
    5. Zapdos - Water or Dragon or another move
    6. Syclant - Dragon / neutral
    7. Blissey - Depends on Physical or Special.
    8. Heatran - Water
    9. Scizor - Neutral
    10. Pyroak - neutral

      (as it's best to decentralize top 8-9)
    11. Stratagem - Grass/Electric attacks keep it neutral to prevent super effective attacks. Which is it's main weakness, with the water type alone.
    12. Revenankh - Neutral to attacks.
    13. Fidgit - No problem
    14. Tyranitar - Neutral to all hits, special versions wont suprise it also as fire blast, ice beam, thunderbolt, etc. won't score a super effective hit to it.
    15. Zapdos - neutral to electric attacks, x4 resistance to heatwave, Neutral to HP Ice and HP Grass
    16. Syclant - Resisted to some attacks
    17. Blissey - It depends physically or not..
    18. Heatran - x4 resistance to Fire attacks, Neutral to both HP Ice/Grass, Earth Power
    19. Scizor - Resists Bullet Punch
    20. Pyroak - Resists 1 STAB, holds off grass attacks nicely.


      The only person that could hit Water/Dragon super effectiveley is Tyranitar with Dragon Claw, which is a waste movepool on T-Tar. Nothing could hit it with super effective, hence 'decentralizing' the top 10 threats nicely. Some could go HP Dragon, but it would be a waste of time..
  8. crobatchop


    Oct 27, 2008
    Come on, we just don't want to have another Kingdra. Let's make something different.
    I am actually fine with fighting and just water, but I go for ghost.
  9. chronostrike


    Feb 23, 2008
    Here's the way I look at it.

    Fidgit is already taken care of with water. All we need to do is not give it a ground weak.

    Zapdos is a wash. Negating both the grass and electric weaks requires dragon or grass. Unfortunately, they both result in no useful resists. We'd have to make another Blissey for it to work, but Stratagem/Zapdos would walk all over a physical version, Revenankh/Tyranitar would destroy a special version, and a mixed wall would probably be broken or ineffectual.

    Weakness to Rev is not a winning strategy for beating it, so Dark and Normal are no go. Ghost and Psychic both add a STAB option against it but also weakness to Ttar. It also requires high def to survive SS and high atk/satk to kill Rev quickly. Not being weak is just easier, not to mention (P)Haze, and doesn't get so close to broken against everything else.

    Rock weak is absolutely out of the question, ergo not bug, fire, flying, or ice.

    Ground weak is not as bad, but then CAP6 stops being a counter to Fidgit. It also fails hard against Tyranitar.

    This leaves Fighting, Ground, and no type.

    No Secondary Type isn't bad, but adding a type improves attacking options.

    Ground resists Rock and is immune to thunderbolt, but Zapdos will just use HP Grass for slightly more damage.

    Finally, Fighting also resists Rock and Dark, making it great to come in on Ttar and most of Gem's options. Plus, vacuum wave is an option.

    In short, I see Dragon, Fighting, and Ground as the best options, and I am voting Fighting.

    (Note concerning Togekiss: Togekiss is 28th on the server as of November, so increasing its usage would decentralize the metagame. Also, ice or rock moves are very plausible on this pokemon, making Togekiss an unsafe switch in.)
  10. darkjjak


    Aug 1, 2007

    Exactly, that's why I'm not so worried about it having a Flying weak. Being a Water type, it'll have access to a lot of Ice type attacks.
  11. Icy Vegeta

    Icy Vegeta

    Mar 27, 2008
    Again, wasting a slot that could have been used for support/recovery/ or better attacking if combined with Dragon rather then Fighting.
  12. haterguy


    Sep 19, 2008
    Well making something different is good, but the concept is decentralizer, so it has to be Water/dragon because it decentralizes liek I said..

    Also Water/fighting is poliwhirl..

    Water/ghost would be new, but it wouldnt decentralize as much as dragon or fighting.
  13. jagged_angel


    Aug 29, 2007
    You're wasting your time, Dragon isn't going to win, but I'll take the bait!

    Dragon adds Nothing. No pokemon in the top 10 are weak to dragon moves so the best you could of said was that some of them are neutral to Dragon. But they're all weak to or neutral to Water so offensively, Dragon is useless.

    1. DEFENSIVLEY (as it's best to decentralize top 8-9)
    2. Stratagem - Water is neutral to Rock, Dragon is neutral to Rock, however Fighting resists rock so if this can OHKO with STAB Aqua Jet or Stab Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave then Fighting is a much better choice.
    3. Revenankh - Dragon adds nothing, neither does Fighting
    4. Fidgit - Dragon adds nothing, neither does Fighting
    5. Tyranitar - Dragon adds no resists whereas Fighting resists Both its STABs.
    6. Zapdos - Dragon removes the Electric weak but provides no resistances to its STABs. Fighting is not good as it adds a Flying weak.
    7. Syclant - Dragon adds no resists and removes the Ice resist of Water. Water/Fighting resists Both STABs.
    8. Blissey - Neutral to Dragon, weak to Fighting.
    9. Heatran - Water already resists Fire and is neutral to Earth so Dragon doesnt add anything except Hidden Power resists. Heatran sometimes runs Dragon Pulse so cant always switch in safely. Fighting gives SE STAB.
    10. Scizor - Water already resists Bullet Punch, Dragon resists nothing extra. Water/Fighting resists Both STABs.
    11. Pyroak - Water/Dragon and Water/Fighting both need stats/movepool to beat Pyroak.
    Dragon is a Terrible offensive type and brings no new resists. The neutralities to Grass and Electric are nice, the neutrality to Ice is bad. So defensively, it's nothing special.

    Fighting is a brilliant offensive type and brings very useful Bug, Dark and Rock resists. Flying and Psychic weaknesses are no biggie as only Zapdos uses Flying moves from the top 10.
  14. Lawman


    Aug 1, 2007
    Honestly haterguy, Dragon/Water has crap resistances, only Water, Steel, and Fire, so even with one weakness, neutral hits can still be powerful and do a number. Offensively, Dragon is not doing anything for the top 10. I fail to see how it would be viable. I'll go through your list again.

    Stratagem - Has no resists, and without priority and switching in on any move with stealth rock would likely be a 2hko unless it was very bulky, and if not it wouldn't be able to switch in more than twice.

    Rev - if it ends up Physical like many want then gg here. Only typing that could counter Rev imo would be Normal/Ghost. Bulk Up and rest prevent anything without SE STAB from doing much physically.

    Fidget - Nothing here really to say, water suffices but dragon does nothing to help. Really Fidget isn't going to do much back in terms of attacking, so typing alone won't do much for fidget here.

    Tyranitar - STAB Stone Edge will do more than SE Dragon Claw, and no Tyranitar will be running Outrage. Dragon doesn't help against Stone Edge or Crunch.

    Zapdos - Neutral to Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Flying/Grass/Ice won't really cut it, and unboosted neutral moves don't do much against zapdos.

    Syclant - with Dragon you lose resistance against ice and even then other hits will be strong and neutral, hard to take since it has no resistances against it. Water/dragon doesn't threaten syclant in the slightest offensivly or defensivly.

    Blissey - I am not going to bother this depends on the physical/special split. Neutral moves with an average attack stat won't do much

    Heatran - with a 4x fire resist, it looks good, but they will begin to pack Dragon Pulse over HP Ice.

    Scizor - Dragon adds nothing to water to aid in checking scizor.

    Pyroak - most pyroak from what I've seen only carry lava plume for an attack, but even with some carrying Energy Ball, water/dragon doesn't fare badly here.

    The addition of Dragon overall is only useful against one pokemon, maybe two if bulky enough to take hits from non-metal sound Zapdos, and does nothing substantial that Water doesn't already do.

    EDIT: Beaten to the punch
  15. haterguy


    Sep 19, 2008
    It won't matter about the offense of Dragon because dragons usually have great base stats in terms of special and physical attacks.

    It's all about 'decentralizing' common attacks while still having to take them down. Imo, having something like Water/dragon that could take hits is nice, given dragon dance or some sort of stat-upper it is going to take down the top 10 listed while having to take in hits without super effective. Problem with fighting is, it is weak to electric and grass which is common.

    4 weakness is a lot and it doesn't seem like 'decentralizing' as much as water/dragon's few key resistance and neutrality.

    i dunno... but this my last post in here.. it really dont matter im fine with both fighting or dragon, it's just dragon makes a lot more sense to me imo.
  16. Pombo


    Feb 29, 2008
    Dragons USUALLY have. This is a CAP, so we can make a fast special attacker rock type. A Gallade like (kinda better, cause Gallade is mediocre, IMO) Stat spread would allow him to beat every single top 10.

    Togekiss will come back? with this overpopulation of Scarftrans, Zapdos, Scizors and Stratagems? I doubt, seriously.

    please, remember one thing: Each single pokemon have a weakness. You can cover the Electric/Grass with any special wall (come on, who uses Vire/Breloom (ok, they are fucking good pokes, but no one uses them))

    Zapdos uses Flying moves? o.o

    Water Fighting resists:
    -Strata Stab
    -Tyranitar STAB (both)
    - Heatran Stab
    - Both Scyclant STABs
    - Scizor Stab (both) - Important: 4x resistance to Bullet Punch
    - Pyroak

    IMO too much resistances > few weaknesses because you can cover a lot of moves with him and be covered by only 1 pokemon. Too much resists also give him much more oportunities to enter, since a neutral Stone Edge coming from a CBTTar hurts everything non resisting it.
  17. Goodbar


    Jul 11, 2007
    Stop making assumptions like this, we can't even be sure this pokemon is going to decentralize anything, and can hardly tell based on typing. Actually for the sole reason that it's CAP I'd bargain that it'd more likely centralize ?_?
    While I agree that defensively its rather silly to consider, dragon is probably one of or the best offensive type out there, and with a good stat distribution could probably at least check every one of the top 10.
    It's only 2x :S
  18. beej

    beej "iwas born from a mator that carried life for somewhere"
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 21, 2008
    Fighting does not resist Steel. Metagross rapes Machamp in the face with Meteor Mash.

    I'm still an avid Water/Electric supporter. You'll find that it does well on the defensive end and offensive end of many of the most common threats. Lanturn + weight and other features could arguably be one of the best decentralizers around.
  19. darkie

    darkie just remember no caps when you spell the mans name
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 25, 2005
    Fighting wins with 53.5% of the popular vote.
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