Policy Review Policy Review - Movepool Process Changes

<@Bass> whatever, I approve

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This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. The posting rules for Policy Review threads are contained here.

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As many people to see, the movepool thread is always the hardest part to run. People have no idea what is/isn't allowed or what is/isn't competitive. If it isn't mentioned, people are always in the dark. However, I believe there is a way to remedy this. I want to completely revamp the movepool process.

Part 1a: Banned Moves Discussion Thread

This thread would serve as a suggestion thread for moves that people don't want on the movepool only. Anything is fair game to be suggested, however people will have to provide reasoning.

Part 1b: Banned Moves Poll

The TL will gauge which moves have the most support (or least, depending on how you look at it.). This will be a bold poll like it is now. However the twist is people will bold moves that they don't want.

Part 2a: Competitive Movepool Submission/Discussion

People will submit a "package" of competitive moves. They can put 3-4 in the Level-Up, 3-4 in Egg, and unlimited in Tutor/TMs. Submitters can use any move they think will be competitively useful that isn't banned. This ensures everyone is starting from the same base on the full movepool, so that the full movepool is strictly flavor based, and the moves that count are competitive.

Part 2b: Competitive Movepool Poll

Standard poll, people vote on the different packages.

Part 3a: Full Movepool Submission/Discussion

This is where the flavor moves will get added to the competitive moves, and all the different moves get put into place. No competitive moves can be added/deleted from the movepool, however egg chains can be played around with to prevent certain moves from being together. If a 50% majority of competitive move packages have move x, and it doesn't make it into the final package, it is still competitive and not allowed in the final movepool as "flavor". If not, it is obviously not good enough to be considered competitive, and is therefore flavor.

Part 3b: Full Movepool Poll

Self-explanatory, vote for whichever movepool you think is the best.

The big difference in this method is changing the focus from Offensive/Support to Competitive/Flavor. I think it flows better, and is less clunky than the movepool polls are now.

Sounds good to me. Deviding the one movepool step into many seems like a good idea. All flavor arguments can be adressed later, after the competitive moves have all been sorted out. Gone with all the fangs vs. punches, the roar vs. whirlwind, etc. Might save some time, might gain some, but still increases overall qualtiy of the final movepool, which is what we are after in the end. Good sugesstion, and I think we should add thses steps to the current process.

This is perfect. Step by step is better then the whole thing all at once. So, it's like everyone contributes to make a moveset that everyone likes.

Looks like a good process, there are many ways to do the movepool threads.

While I don't necessarily agree that movepool is terrible as is, this would be a reasonable alternative. I do agree that there needs to be a better division between competitive and non-competitive, but I'm not exactly sure how this division helps that.

billymills said:

While I don't necessarily agree that movepool is terrible as is, this would be a reasonable alternative. I do agree that there needs to be a better division between competitive and non-competitive, but I'm not exactly sure how this division helps that.

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It eliminates the whole "Is this move allowed or not" mentality. Basically, any move is allowed in your competitive package base dd on what YOU think is competitive. However I suppose a stipulated could be added, something to the effect of "If a 50% majority of competitive move packages have move x, and it doesn't make it into the final package, it is still competitive and not allowed in the final movepool as "flavor"".

Before I begin, I'm not going to pretend to be an experienced member of CAP.

I really like the sound of voting for banned moves rather than allowed moves. However, I don't like how you've seperated the complete movepool with this package ideal.

If I understand, the package is just preset competitive moves that must be in a specific section of the final movepool. It'll be an exact replica of the complete movepool, only cutting out the fillers. Using Kit as an example, a package might include Shadow Strike, Perish Song, and Memento in the level up field, while Meteor Mash would be in the egg moves section, etc. However, everything else will just be left off (I know I didn't cover everything that a package would include, this is just a broad example).

I think that splitting this up will lower the effectiveness of the movepool step as a whole because we don't get to see the entire picture before choosing. We have to choose a chunk of the material while essentially being blind to the rest of the options. I don't like that it forces a set template. Right now it allows for a lot of variety in the submissions, and people can make their decision with all of the information available at one time. The package forces us to conform to a single set template on all of the final submissions, which I dislike. I realize that we vote on the package, but not everybody will like the winning set and forcing every final submission to contain it will cause an upset and lower effectiveness. People may dislike one package and not vote for it, but later realize that it would've been the superior choice along with the 'flavor' moves. If people like a certain package so much (and it essentially wins), then the currect structure of the movepool is fine because people will choose that submission anyways (without the package step).

There are bound to be submissions with both flavor and competitive intent, and if that's what is really wanted then people will vote for that. Also, I feel the package is unnecessary because a lot of final movepools already contain the essentials that people would look for (EQ, MM, SS for Kit), letting people vote for extra content moreso than the main content already.

I hope I made my point clear. I'm horrible at trying to word arguments. Sorry.

The reason I did that is that there is an unlimited amount of TM/Tutor moves available. Would it be better if I just said that you can have up to 8 "wildcard" moves which aren't TM moves or Tutor moves?

As for the "forcing a template" view, I can see where you're coming from. However, flavor moves are just that: flavor. Nobody (I hope) should vote for a movepool based on flavor, however people do anyway. This allows you to compare movepools apples to apples, without all the other moves in the way. People not liking it is a part of CAP since it's a group effort: the majority is not always liked by all, it's liked by most.

Having a superior choice "with flavor moves" is completely irrelevant to CAP as a whole, since this is a competitive project, yada yada yada.

The only problem I have with this is that the last step is rather pointless since its based on a small flavor aspect and will lead to a lot of submissions that probably won't be that well thought out to begin with. To combine the support and offensive move steps though I am fine with, but movepools should just be submitted as a whole, CAP voters should be responsible enough to find the competitive moves contained.

Mr_Goodbar said:

The only problem I have with this is that the last step is rather pointless since its based on a small flavor aspect and will lead to a lot of submissions that probably won't be that well thought out to begin with. To combine the support and offensive move steps though I am fine with, but movepools should just be submitted as a whole, CAP voters should be responsible enough to find the competitive moves contained.

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I agree with this, but all movepool submissions should be required to list all competetive moves. The current process isn't that overwhelming, and the non-competetive movepool poll would just be a time waster at the end of the process.

Mr_Goodbar said:

The only problem I have with this is that the last step is rather pointless since its based on a small flavor aspect and will lead to a lot of submissions that probably won't be that well thought out to begin with. To combine the support and offensive move steps though I am fine with, but movepools should just be submitted as a whole, CAP voters should be responsible enough to find the competitive moves contained.

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That "last step" is the whole point of the change. As much as I want to trust the voters to vote for movepools for competitive moves, I can show you post after post after post showing the exact opposite. This basically assures that the main part of the movepool is completely competitive, without cutting flavor out completely. In reality, flavor shouldn't make a difference in things like movepool. However, we all know that isn't true.

I think this recent vote is representative that the community is indeed going for competitiveness over flavor, since DK's was pretty arguably more flavorful. I agree that well flavorably structured movepools have an edge in the polls though. The post above you is a pretty good idea, this will make it easier for those who do care about competitiveness most and it'll still draw attention to those who don't without creating a basically useless flavor poll.

I was under the impression all movepools were required to bold competitive moves already.

I like the sound of this, but I think that the best way to go about with this would be to add an "Recommended Moves Thread and Poll" alongside the banned moves. The reasoning behind this is that it would allow the community to discuss what moves 'tend' to be on it, as well as moves that would help fulfill the goal of the concept. This way, the Complete Movepool Submission thread doesn't start out as chaos, and the moves can be similar with more than enough leeway and variety from the submissions.

Mr_Goodbar said:

I think this recent vote is representative that the community is indeed going for competitiveness over flavor, since DK's was pretty arguably more flavorful. I agree that well flavorably structured movepools have an edge in the polls though. The post above you is a pretty good idea, this will make it easier for those who do care about competitiveness most and it'll still draw attention to those who don't without creating a basically useless flavor poll.

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I'd love to hear the argument if how my movepool was "more flavorful" in the end analysis than darkie's.

In fact, I would love a good definiton of "competitive" and "flavorful" given that comparatively speaking, my movepool had more competitively viable moves.

Which isn't a knock on darkie. darkie's does have enough moves to function perfectly fine, but please, please don't bullshit about "flavor." "Flavor" has a general trend as being defined as "moves not powerful enough/too powerful/random grievance for my liking, despite my overwhelming support for a design they fit on where their alternatives do not."

Every CAP Art gets the most votes and the most arguments over it. People even use alt accounts to cheat in Art polls. And then, after all is said and done, people want to use a blank canvas for their movepools and ignore the artistic preference of 150+ people.

Get me a definition of "competitive" and "flavor." Before we do that, this new distinction is worse than our current dichotomy. At least you can define "Attacking" and "Supporting" moves.

i like the idea, but dislike the titles and descriptions. as is, they both are worded in such a way that it seems like discussion is encouraged less than just pure move submission.
i would feel much better supporting this if the phrasing is changed, or even just the thread title, ie. "Banned Moves Discussion Thread" gives a better feel than just "Banned Moves Thread." same goes to merely changing part 2a to "Competitive Movepool Discussion and Submission"

A competitive move is a reliable move that works most of the time, and is useful in achieving the Pokemon's goal.

Edit: Discussion is obviously a part of it, but I'll add it anyway.

tennisace said:

A competitive move is a reliable move that works most of the time, and is useful in achieving the Pokemon's goal.

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yes, but since the concept of usefulness changes with each poke, then doesn't that make the whole idea of the already compiled competitive move list rather unnecessary?
at the same time, it probably will clear up a large amount of confusion on what is and isn't competitive on the poke. this is a problem that i only truly grasped in CaP7, when i wasn't sure i could include healing wish since that might've put me over the limit on egg moves (seemed competitively viable, but lack of both discussion on the move and permission from the TL made it seem up in the air)

Edit: Discussion is obviously a part of it, but I'll add it anyway.

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obvious to those who have done this before, but it should be in writing for all the newcomers.

tennisace said:

A competitive move is a reliable move that works most of the time, and is useful in achieving the Pokemon's goal.

Edit: Discussion is obviously a part of it, but I'll add it anyway.

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Herein lies the problem.

Example: Our concept was Ultimate Scout. Fake Out clearly and unequivocably helps a scout in it's purpose in destroying Focus Sashes, or checking for Leftovers in the case of Limber Kitsunoh.

Fake Out however is an UnSTAB, 1-specific time attack with 40 BP.

Is any priority move automatically competitive?

STAB is by nature reliable, so thats not much of an issue.

And now we come to the debate we had earlier, Punches vs. Fangs. Neither of them served as anything better than 3HKOs against major threats. So how would one say they are "Competitive" vs. "Flavor."

Anyway, I need not belabor the point. "Competitive" vs. "Flavorful" is so amorphous. conditional, and shifting as to be rendered pointless. Never mind using it as the central point for banning/allowing moves.

I agree that the movepool portion of the CAP process is not working very well. We've struggled with finding a workable movepool process from the very beginning of the CAP project. It's haphazard, confusing, and ultimately doesn't produce results that represent a consolidated community effort.

I'm not real sure this proposal will solve the problems. I'm afraid it might just shift the problems in a different sequence. But, I like the general thinking behind the proposal. It would allow competitive movepools to be submitted "as a whole", rather than assembled piecemeal by the community. Presumably, the movepool submissions will be somewhat cohesive and sensible.

I wish there was a way to "tweak" the selected competitive package, after it is chosen. I can imagine many voters complaining "I like SoAndSo's movepool, except for <whatever>..." I 'd like to devise a way to allow community votes on specific aspects of the selected package. I know the community can ban moves beforehand -- but I'm not sure it will be clear what we DON'T want, until AFTER the movepool is selected.

When I submitted the movepools for CAP5 and CAP6, I barely ever discussed anything in the discussion threads. I just let everyone see what they wanted in the movepool, then I submitted one with those guidelines. And I won both.

About competitive vs. flavour, I don't know. I think a good movepool is one which admirably combines both competitive and flavour moves. If you put flavour moves only, you'll end up with something like Entei. While Entei IS a Pokemon designed by Gamefreak, it is not very competitive. Remember that Gamefreak's goal is NOT to create competitive Pokemon. I'm sure Nintendo never envisioned that Pokemon would, one day, be played competitively when they first released Pokemon Red and Blue in Japan way back in the late 90s. The people did, though. You can't ask "why does Luvdisc exist if it sucks in battling?" - Luvdisc's purpose in the game is not to battle! It was WE, the guys who battle, who insisted that all Pokemon are battling monsters.

tennisace said:

I was under the impression all movepools were required to bold competitive moves already.

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The suggestion wasn't bolding competitive moves though, it was to list them again separately from the entire movepool. You can't say there isn't a difference because this is what you want to do, in two steps.

Deck Knight said:

I'd love to hear the argument if how my movepool was "more flavorful" in the end analysis than darkie's.

Get me a definition of "competitive" and "flavor." Before we do that, this new distinction is worse than our current dichotomy. At least you can define "Attacking" and "Supporting" moves.

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Quite frankly I think those moves are pretty distinct. So a competitive move is one that could work well in battle on a pokemon, and there's kind of a fine line here because some move would probably only work well on gimmicks but eh. Flavor is more about the structure I guess, but it is fairly obvious which moves are never or too unoftenly going to be used, which I'd call flavor moves if they fit into a "flavorable" structure. I can't give you a formula for figuring it out or a comprehensive guide, but that doesn't mean that it's a vague distinction, most good submissions are made by people who have a fair enough knowledge of competitive pokemon to make this distinction accurately enough. And I only said yours was more flavorable than darkie's because that seemed to be the general consensus and jagged_angel? made a good point about it, that distinction isn't so clear but in certain cases it can be. I'm not sure exactly what I'm answering for you though.

I realise I'm not exactly a vocal member of the community, but I've been with CaP since the begnning with Cooper, I'm just a lurker at heart. So, I hope I'm allowed to say a few brief words.

90% of the moveset ultimately means nothing. A Pokemon will use what, 10 different moves tops in all its various sets? Voting for the competitive moves as a separate package really helps streamline things, and that way flavour won't effect the movepools, as competitive won't have to compete with it. Voting for the banned moves right at the start is an excellent idea - it allows for pruning, keeping everything in rein from the word go.

So, I'm for this idea, and I really think it would help future CaPs.

Deck Knight said:

wisdom

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I support this proposal in principle as it clearly bisects the Competitive and Flavour portions of movepool selection.

However I don't see how we can proceed without having a consensus on the definition of the terms used.

Competitive/Flavour are such intuitive terms that most people Think they know what they mean but this can differ wildly from person to person.

Looking at the winning movepool for Kitsunoh, we have
Fake Out
Shadow Sneak
Memento
ShadowStrike
Perish Song
Ice Fang
Thunder Fang

all from the Level Up list. where do we draw the line of competitiveness? You could say it's Just ShadowStrike that is Competitive, you could say it's all of them.

The TL can't be the arbiter if it's such a vague distinction.

I don't wish to debate whether or not any of those are competitive on Kitsunoh, just saying we need a solid definition of Competitive and Flavour.

I would say maybe the proposal should be changed to 1-2 Competitive moves and 3-4 Borderline Competitive moves per level up/egg list.

Competitive moves would be ones that everyone would agree on like ShadowStrike, while Borderline Competitive moves would be the more ambiguous moves like Yawn.

That's completely irrelevant. If you read my proposal it says that it would be up to the SUBMITTER to decide what was/wasn't competitive on this Pokemon. They would have 6 choices (outside of TM/Tutor moves) for competitive moves. Really if you can't choose which 6 moves are the best on a Pokemon, not including TM/Tutor moves which include some of the best moves around, then you shouldn't be submitting a movepool.