Policy Review Policy Review - The Kitchen

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In the PR thread on Topic Leadership, I included the following proposal in "Appendix A" to the proposal:

Topic Leadership said:

I want to make a new discussion thread early in the process and leave it open for the duration of the project -- it will be called "The Kitchen". The Kitchen is a thread to discuss flavor. Get it? Kitchen?...flavor?... yeah, bad pun, I know. But, I'm a dork like that, so deal with it. Anyway, the Topic Leader will be the THE SOLE JUDGE of all flavor issues with the pokemon. In the past we have said "Flavor doesn't matter" -- when it does matter... just not as much as competitive stuff. Well, in the hands of a strong, respectable Topic Leader, we can actually address certain flavor concerns -- and let the TL have final say on all flavor debates. The Kitchen will be the place to lobby the TL on flavor issues, and where the TL will announce his judgments on flavor.

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I've received several questions about The Kitchen, and I realize my description was pretty vague. I've been writing A TON over the past several days. I was sick of it, and so I just kinda threw that Kitchen idea out there without explaining it too much. In hindsight, I realize this idea is almost completely separate from the issue of Topic Leadership, and deserves to be discussed independently.

So, in this PR thread, I'd like to dig deeper into my proposal for The Kitchen. This addresses the overall importance of flavor on the CAP project, and how we acknowledge, control, and benefit from flavor discussions and debates.


The Kitchen is not intended as a way to change any existing flavor steps in CAP -- it is intended to be a catch-all for all the other flavor disputes that arise in the competitive threads. Most of those disputes are related to the stats, moves, and abilities that a pokemon "should or should not" have, due to other aspects of the pokemon. For example, these are examples of purely flavor-related arguments:

"I don't think this pokemon should have a high <fill-in-the-blank> stat, because it has <fill-in-the-blank> type."

"This pokemon should not have <fill-in-the-blank> ability, because it's design looks like <fill-in-the-blank>."

"This pokemon could never use <fill-in-the-blank> move."

"This pokemon should/should not get the <fill-in-the-blank> TM because <fill-in-the-blank> is the obvious rule followed by Nintendo ingame."

"It doesn't make sense for a pokemon with <fill-in-the-blank> type weakness/resistance, to get <fill-in-the-blank> move or ability."​

Normally, we dismiss all discussions like this in competitive threads -- usually with comments like "Shut the fuck up, fanboy" or simply "Focus Punch Wooper". I think we should continue to disallow flavor discussions in competitive threads. We cannot distract competitive discussions with endless flavor bitching and arguing. However that does not mean that ALL flavor arguments are completely irrelevant.

Whether you like it or not -- we do not call our project "Create-A-Fictional-Battle-Simulation-Character". It's called "Create-A-Pokemon". As such, we must deal with the reality that most people in the Smogon community carry certain "Pokemon flavor assumptions" with them. If we completely ignore all the flavor background in Pokemon -- we will alienate the participation pool for this project. While there may be a small handful of diehard server battlers that are content with building an efficient combination of stats and moves and calling it a "Pokemon" -- most people are NOT. Most people assume that CAP pokemon are supposed to be... Pokemon.

The problem is there is no clear definition as to the rules for making a Pokemon. I don't know if GameFreak has any rules, and if they do -- I will never get to see them. That's why we disallow people from posting comments that imply that rules exist for creating pokemon. But that doesn't mean that flavor is completely thrown out the door on CAP. It just means that we can't make any set rules about it. We need to acknowledge that every individual person has a perception as to what "makes sense" and what does not on a Pokemon.

For example, what if I proposed a new move called "Doom Mode". The effect of the move is that it converts the battlefield into a first-person shooter field, and the pokemon using the move is holding the gun. You get five shots to kill the opposing pokemon, while they attempt to dodge your bullets in real time. Two hits kills their pokemon forever, and they can't use them ever again in battle.

What if I told you I could implement this move on the CAP server? What if a huge majority of the community voted that "Doom Mode" would be the coolest fucking move they ever saw? Should we allow it? Hell no we shouldn't. Because it doesn't "make sense" in Pokemon. Even if we all thought it was great fun -- it would instantly disconnect our project from competitive Pokemon, because we would be making a new game entirely. Newcomers to the CAP project would look at our "Doom Mode" and say "What the fuck? This isn't Pokemon!"

Technically, I am rejecting "Doom Mode" for flavor reasons. Please don't get pedantic about "Doom Mode", or the fact that ALL our new CAP creations are "not Pokemon". I'm just using that as an over-the-top example of a completely ridiculous suggestion, to illustrate that flavor CAN matter. It DOES matter that CAP pokemon "make sense" within the spirit and example of the game of Pokemon.

Unfortunately, we really don't have a way to address anything related to flavor outside of things like the art and name threads. For example, here's some flavor issues that have come up on past projects:

"Should a pokemon have an ability that negates a 4x weakness? (Syclant)"

"What is the realistic upper limit for speed on a conventional OU pokemon? (Stratagem)"

"Should a Rock pokemon NOT get Stealth Rock? (Stratagem)

"Can a pokemon without any obvious way to manipulate air flow, use the move Tailwind? (Fidgit)"

"All Fighting-types should get Bulk Up. (Arghonaut)"​

I am not going to rehash those arguments here, and I don't want anyone else to address them in this thread either. I merely present them as examples of pure flavor disputes, that I think are reasonable for the average learned Pokemon player to consider "arguable".

The problem is -- there is really no place to have an argument about this stuff. And even if we argue about it, there is really no way to decide what to do about it. I propose The Kitchen is the place where we argue about stuff like this, and the Topic Leader is the one who makes all the decisions about the outcome of the arguments. No polls, no bold votes -- clear executive fiat. And if the decision has implications on a competitive thread, then the TL will announce his decision and we will abide by it. For example, if The Kitchen had existed on past CAP projects, we might have seen TL announcements like this:

"Stratagem must get Stealth Rock for flavor reasons which have been discussed in The Kitchen. Please see that thread for more information and background."

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"Arghonaut is not allowed to have Bulk Up, despite flavor issues that were discussed in The Kitchen. Please see that thread for more information and background."

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I do have some fears about making a thread dedicated to flavor debates. I am concerned that The Kitchen will be a never-ending shitstorm of noob fanboy posts. However, I think it is probably better to give an outlet for flavor posts, rather than try to eliminate it from the project completely. It's hard to suppress all flavor, since it is such a natural thing for Pokemon players to consider -- particularly when we have entire process steps dedicated to particular flavor aspects (Art, Name, Sprite, etc). The Kitchen will be a place for all the other flavor stuff. And in that thread, hopefully we can develop a general "community opinion" (not formal rules or definitions) about what kinds of flavor issues are worth discussing, and which ones are totally irrelevant.

I realize this idea is somewhat controversial, and it will certainly have some problems. But I think The Kitchen will do more good than harm.

Wooper doesn't learn Focus Punch. It gets Dynamicpunch by Breeding, and well... Breed moves are highly irregular to begin with.

/end "FLAVOR KNIGHT MODE".

The Kitchen sounds like it could be big flame bait. I doubt a warning OP about "if you can't take the heat, stay out of The Kitchen" will help the matter.

What we don't want it is to be a continuous example of crap-funneling from all other topics. While I suppose as an outlet it works to keep everything else clean, a pile of garbage at the top of the forum is still pretty disgusting.

The Topic Leader is going to have the keep the fires low in The Kitchen in order for it not to degrade. This in addition to the more pronounced director role could be a bit much. I think it's worth a try, if only to see how much of a crap-funnel it becomes, and if it does so, has it taken that crap out of the other topics and substantially improved them. Cleaning up one garbage dump is easier than cleaning up litter strewn everywhere.

I was writing a long-winded post on arguing involving flavor in older CaPs, but I couldn't finish the whole post so I deleted it. I seriously need to learn to be more concise...

Anyway, I'm in favor of the Kitchen (and also of Doom Mode!) for all the reasons stated. CaP has been plagued by flavor-only and posts and discussions since Syclant, and even though the sheer number of them has gone down, it's still annoying to have a thread clogged up with what could be seen as "off-topicness". Having an entire thread for any flavor issue involving the competitive aspects would clear up the main threads and give people a space to actually voice their arguments without being repressed every time (even though they shouldn't talk about flavor that much!). I don't see, however, the kitchen becoming a noob-fest. I believe there's a lot of veterans here who does care about flavor, and wouldn't let the newbies take over the thread; any idea that was dumb enough would be frowned upon anyway, either by the TL or by the other participants of the thread.

And while it may not seem that important, I'd like to have any mentions of Dynamicpunch Wooper as the be-all end-all anti-flavor argument prohibited on the Kitchen. Yeah cool, an armless pokémon can punch the hell out of you, it looks more like an exception to the rule than the rule itself.

I have always looked down upon flavor debates, but they are necessary to a certain degree. I mean, while someone may have lived with that, I would have found Brave Bird Kitsunoh quite ridiculous. As Doug said, we are still creating Pokémon.

This does not mean that we should care flavor over competitive concerns. Even Gamefreak showed this very mindset by not giving Rest to Regigigas, for example (not that I think Regigigas would be uber with rest, but the reason rest have been left out is still quite apparent). But, like in a lot of other things, there's a limit. It is somehow "common sense" that the end justifies the means. But this applies only when the negative sides of the means are overshadowed by the positive effects of the end. Translating this into our case, if we feel that a compelling, competitive concern force us to conflict with flavor issues (like in Regigigas case or, back in the CAP past, like SR and Stratagem, BU and Argho etc.), than by all means we have to eschew flavor. But, when a little or even controversial competitive concern pose large flavor issues (like giving a questionable move like a 120BP Flying move to something Pyroak and Argho should counter even ignoring the fact that we are giving Brave Bird to a Ghost), then I think we should take a step back and consider these issues more seriously.

To sum this up, flavor issues exist, can't be ignored but at the same time can't be allowed to ravage the standard competitive discussions. A thread to convey all this arguing is the best option IMO, even if it requires serious, VERY serious hard-moderation.

There are two main elements to this proposal that I would like us to address in this Policy Review:

The Kitchen will acknowledge that flavor IS a concern on CAP projects.
Flavor is already acknowledged in the CAP Mission Statement, but that's just about the only place. Based on the kind of response given to people that raise flavor concerns in competitive threads, I think many people may get the impression that all flavor is completely irrelevant unless it is totally innocuous (art, sprite, name, etc). That isn't true. We just don't want competitive threads derailed.


The Kitchen will give a us a proper place to have organized discussions about flavor concerns.

Flavor CAN impact certain competitive aspects of our pokemon, but it is SECONDARY to the competitive issues. So, if there is a compelling competitive reason to include/exclude something on a CAP pokemon - then the competitive reasoning takes precedence. But if the competitive impact is marginal (not irrelevant -- marginal), then flavor can take precedence. It is all a question of degree.

For example, on Stratagem, there were many people opposed to having a pokemon with Stratagem's speed, able to set up rocks. That's a clear competitive argument. However, ingame all Rock pokemon get Stealth Rock as a TM move (IIRC). That's a big precedent, but it's still just a flavor argument. In the end, I think we agreed that setting up rocks would not have an unbalancing effect on the pokemon, and the game precedent was compelling. It also helped that there were some people that really wanted a 130 speed pokemon able to get rocks up quickly.

In the case of Arghonaut, I believe Deck Knight was the person who pointed out that every Fighting type pokemon ingame got the move Bulk Up. However, with Argho's typing, stats, and ability -- many people shrieked at the notion of giving it Bulk Up in addition to its already impressive arsenal of weapons. It that case, we ignored the clear flavor issues and excluded Bulk Up from the movepool -- because the competitive impact was too big.

These are the sorts of discussions we will have in The Kitchen. But how do we control it?

I'm glad Zarator mentioned Brave Bird Kitsunoh, I forgot about that one. The idea of giving a Steel Ghost cat a move like Brave Bird -- was appalling to me from a flavor standpoint. If Brave Bird was in Kit's movepool, it would be derided and ridiculed by every newcomer that looks at Kit's dex page. In my opinion, if we do something like that -- the competitive reasons need to be OVERWHELMING. Like in the case where we gave Tailwind to Fidgit. I agree that Tailwind makes no sense on Fidgit from a flavor standpoint. It's a Poison Ground pokemon with eight arms. Tailwind is a move given only to winged pokemon and Suicune, who is the wind legendary. But on Fidgit, we gave it the ability Persistence -- which extends the turns of moves like Tailwind. Since Tailwind was virtually unused competively at that point -- Fidgit represented a unique opportunity for us to experiment with the move and see if it could be viable in battle. In that case, the competitive reasoning was overwhelming, and we gave Fidgit a move that I freely agree makes no fucking sense on it. But it was the right thing to do.

I have no idea how to define the rules for situations like Brave Bird Kitsunoh and Tailwind Fidgit. My proposal is that we let the Topic Leader decide what is "compelling" or "overwhelming" or whatever. If anyone else has ideas for organizing discussions and determining the importance of flavor issues in The Kitchen -- I'm all ears.

Hmm, mentioning Tailwind Fidgit reminded me of Breezi, its baloony-like pre-evolution that was a Poison/Flying (?) "parachute spider", which was created just to get the move, no? Now that I think of it, would we be allowed to suggest pre-evolutions as a solution to any (or at least some) flavor issues on the Kitchen?