Salamence: Rayquaza's little brother

I'm sure that a good majority of the users that come across this thread are going to have this question in their thoughts, “Why the hell would you use Salamence in Ubers when you can just use Rayquaza?” This is true to a certain extent. While Salamence may have some small advantages over Rayquaza (such as a higher base Speed), in most cases, Rayquaza is the superior choice due to its higher offenses. However, Salamence does have huge selling point that makes it a great Pokémon in the Uber metagame: When Salamence and Rayquaza are used on the same team, they can form a very destructive duo that at times, feels like a loophole through the species clause! In fact, Salamence has been successful enough for me to post a WIP Ubers analysis, which can be found here. Please look at the peer edit for more details on the Salamence set, this thread will focus on testing out teammates and sets for Salamence in Ubers.

The Set
Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk/ / 6 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Blast

This set should look very familiar to those who play OU and Ubers. Not only is this set similar to the Dragon Dancing Salamence of OU, but it is also similar to Rayquaza’s Dragon Dance set. While This set would normally be mostly overshadowed by Rayquaza, I have found that Dragon Dance Salamence thrives when paired with Rayquaza. Below, I will list some damage calculations to show that Salamence has plenty of power in Ubers.

Damage Calculations
+1 Life Orb Outrage vs...

Max HP Kyogre: 106.44% - 125.5%

Max HP Max Defense Bold Kyogre: 75.25% - 88.61% Good thing that most of these Kyogre only run Surf as their attacking move!

112 HP / 8 Defense Groudon: 79.13% - 93.5%

Max HP Max Defense Impish Groudon: 54.95% - 64.85%.

Max HP / 52 Defense Bold Lugia: 65.62% - 77.4%. Yes, this is one of Salamence's problems anyways, but Outrage still does a huge amount of damage to Lugia.

28 HP / Max Defense Wobbuffet: 83.52% - 98.48%. that's around a 74% chance of OHKOing after Stealth Rock damage (This is assuming no Leftovers Recovery, Wobbuffet is a very risky switch into Salamence).

Min/min Dialga: 97.66% - 115.2%. A 100% OHKO after Dialga takes Stealth Rock damage.

Max HP Dialga: 82.67% - 97.52% (While this usually wont KO after Stealth Rock, note that this calc means that max HP Dialga must almost sacrifice itself to end Salamence's sweep).

+1 LO Earthquake vs. Max HP Dialga: 92.57% - 109.41% (around a 92% chance to OHKO after Dialga takes Stealth Rock damage).

Teammates for Dragon Dance Salamence (I'll add more later)

Rayquaza- This is the main point of using Salamence in Ubers

Wobbuffet- Wobbuffet is helpful for its ability to stop most faster scarfers, and is able to set up both Salamence and Rayquaza. Wobbuffet can also be paired with a Pursuit user to defeat Lugia for Salamence.

Scizor- Scizor provides vital resists to Dragon and Ice type moves for Salamence and Rayquaza, while Salamence has a resistance to Fire attacks. Most of this applies to other offensive Steel types like Metagross as well.

Salamence’s quirks (I'll add more later)

Intimidate- I know Ubers may be a Specially based metagame, but Intimidate has really saved my ass several times. For example, Intimidate has saved me from sweeps by last game Rayquaza, Groudon, and Garchomp. This usually requires sacrificing Salamence, but I still find Intimidate to be a life saver at times.

Higher Base Speed-Unlike Rayquaza, Salamence has 100 base Speed, meaning that it ties with Palkia. This is most significant on Dragon Dance Salamence, because many teams devastated when their only answer to it, Choice Scarf Palkia, loses the Speed tie Otherwise, This actually isn't to major besides revenging unboosted Rayquaza.

No Air Lock- Unlike Rayquaza, Salamence is actually effected by the weather, and this really isn't a good thing IMO. In the rain, you get totally walled by Skarmory, while Kyogre will do way more damage with Surf. In my experience, Salamence prefers the weather to be sunny.

Sets to test

The main thing that I am going to be testing is an Ubers Mixmence as teammate for Rayquaza. I will post some damage calcs on the EV spreads I find later. I have a little bit of experience with this, but I didn't feel that I had enough to include it in the peer edit yet. Salamence also learns Roost unlike Rayquaza, so I might try out some sets with Roost, and see what happens. The main point of this thread will be to explore Salamence's teammates, sets, and other things Salamence is capable of in the Uber metagame. This way, I can finish my analysis of Ubers Salamence this month! If proposing a set to test, I highly recommend that you include damage calculations!

I haven't had a chance to test this - but in theory DD Ray and MixMence work well together. Draco Meteor pounds Groudon (especially those who invest heavily in Defense rather than Special Defense) and Lugia, opening up doors for a Ray sweep. Salamence also appreciates the fact that Spikes are easy to get up in Ubers (deo-e, forry), making him even more threatening.

Well, after recently fighting Theorymon about 20 times in a row while he was using Ray and Mence together, I can say that it is quite a scary thing to go up against.

Good, Theorymon. Like you can read my mind, I had the Salamence idea months ago and tested with succes (DD Mence+SD Ray), but never told anyone because it would spoil the surprise factor.

I'd rather use MixQuaza and DDMence together, rather than MixMence and DDRay,the reason being that Rayquaza has a much more fearsome Draco Meteor than Mence, while still having enough speed to outrun most threats, while a DDmence's power is quite comparable to that of DDRay's, as well as Mence being faster.

What I don't like about Mence is the fact that Outrage really is imperative in Ubers,, because otherwise it would lack the power to ko even other Dragons like Max/Max Giratina. Therfore it will be locked into Outrage and it is easy to put an end to its sweep.
Pairing up Mence with Rayquaza might work on the paper, and I guess it is quite a good combination, but I feel Mence is really hard to set up against offense and sharing exactly the same typing with Rayquaza not only means having the same checks(which helps the sweep) but also that fast Ice Beamers like Mewtwo will cause massive trouble. Well that is just my opinion on it. I would prefer a mixed Dialga and a SD Quaza which accomplish the same purpose.

Well, this idea sounds great. But I have some questions: if you go with duo dragon, why won't you use Garchomp? Also, what if you opponent has ice shard Weavile or Mamoswine or choice scraf ice beam Mewtwo or HP ice Shaymin-S and more..., both of them will fall

sammao said:

Well, this idea sounds great. But I have some questions: if you go with duo dragon, why won't you use Garchomp? Also, what if you opponent has ice shard Weavile or Mamoswine or choice scraf ice beam Mewtwo or HP ice Shaymin-S and more..., both of them will fall

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For Dragon Dance Salamence, the reason you would use it over Garchomp is because of the Speed boost. Thanks to Dragon Dance, Salamence will crush Darkrai and Mewtwo, Pokemon that Garchomp is often revenged killed by.

As for the Ice Sharders and Ice Beamers, this is why you carry a Steel-type such as Scizor, or you use Kyogre with them. I'll add more teammates later to give you a better picture.

You have probably been testing this on a standard team.

I have actually been working on this for a while but what does the idea of a heavy offensive team built around dragon types, sound for Ubers.

-Rayquazza, Salamence, Garchomp, Dialga, Palkia, Solid Lead

I do not think that there is a single Uber team capable of withstanding this offensive barrage.

The lead would usually be something like Deoxys. SDray, DD Mence, SD Chomp, Mixed Dialga, Mixed Palka.

I have also tried working in different Steel types in for Dialga to help when confronted by a strong revenge killer (CS Chomp). Other than that this team has become pretty Solid.

Hardly any prediction needed, and it uses the strategy posted here to some extent.

Salamence is usually the defining factor in most battles aswell, as he usually comes in late game where the teams 'Dragon Counters' have been utterly destroyed and he really has some fun.

most teams could withstand this offensive "barrage".

And Latios can fuck with the whole team, bar Dialga.

Polywrath said:

You have probably been testing this on a standard team.

I have actually been working on this for a while but what does the idea of a heavy offensive team built around dragon types, sound for Ubers.

-Rayquazza, Salamence, Garchomp, Dialga, Palkia, Solid Lead

I do not think that there is a single Uber team capable of withstanding this offensive barrage.

The lead would usually be something like Deoxys. SDray, DD Mence, SD Chomp, Mixed Dialga, Mixed Palka.

I have also tried working in different Steel types in for Dialga to help when confronted by a strong revenge killer (CS Chomp). Other than that this team has become pretty Solid.

Hardly any prediction needed, and it uses the strategy posted here to some extent.

Salamence is usually the defining factor in most battles aswell, as he usually comes in late game where the teams 'Dragon Counters' have been utterly destroyed and he really has some fun.

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Scarf Palkia runs through the whole team without much fear??

I'd rather use MixQuaza and DDMence together, rather than MixMence and DDRay,the reason being that Rayquaza has a much more fearsome Draco Meteor than Mence, while still having enough speed to outrun most threats, while a DDmence's power is quite comparable to that of DDRay's, as well as Mence being faster.

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I agree with this. And Rayquaza also has a nice bonus in ExtremeSpeed, which for example helps in taking out Lugia. Lugia is almost always beaten with combination of Draco Meteor + ExtremeSpeed, taking out probably the best Salamence counter.

I tested in the past Salamence and I think good partner is ParaDancing Groudon. It spreads paralysis and has a good shot in beating Lugia and both Shaymin-S and Latias won't enjoy paralysis (you may bluff choice eartquake for example). I think that Rock Polish Groudon also would be a solid partner, as it almost OHKOes Lugia with Stone Edge and second one even behind Reflect finish her off. Accuracy may let you down, but it's solid solid option. And as you said Salamence doesn't enjoy rain of the fild, making Groudon a bit more reliable partner for weather.

I think that Tyranitar (especially bulky ones) also helps Salamence alot. Taking easily on Lugia and Pursuit/Crunch hurts her alot. Also having something to take some special based dragon, ice and some rocks attack is also nice bonus. Also Salamence takes on those Earth and fighting attacks aimed on TTar. However, Bulky Groudons are troublesome for both of them, so something else to take it out would be nice.

One last partner, also known from OU is... Magnezone. No one expects Magnezone in Ubers and it has not only nice resistances and it takes those nasty Forretress, Scizor and Skarmory, which troubles Salamence a bit too much. Especially when Scizor and Forry are really popular right now, it's worth a shot. Thunder OHKOes both of them with SR up boosted with Choice Specs and almost always Palkia with SR up (with one set of Spikes and SR it's clean OHKO). Magnezone needs to run only 44 Spe EVs to outrun minimum speed Scizor. I used it and it really helped alot on those Rayquaza or Salamence based teams.

But yeah, Salamence in Ubers is interesting idea and from my experience it's quite deadly if played right. Good idea with this thread ;).

I`d rather consider 252hp 252def Impish Groudon as "the best Salamence / Rayquaza check in the game" (Adamant Rayquaza OHKO`s Lugia after Stealth Rock damage)

How does MixMence + SDQuaza sound like?
I actaully think this combination would also be able to shine in the UBER meta environment :/

That`s the same as Mixed Salamence + DD Rayquaza (almost).

How does MixMence + SDQuaza sound like?
I actaully think this combination would also be able to shine in the UBER meta environment :/

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How does that combo beat Lugia? Lugia outspeeds both and OHKOs with Ice Beam. I think that is why Dragon Dance Salamence has to be used to pick off Lugia beforehand... Definately have to go with MixQuaza with Draco + Extremespeed to beat Lugia on the switch in.

Uchiha said:

I`d rather consider 252hp 252def Impish Groudon as "the best Salamence / Rayquaza check in the game" (Adamant Rayquaza OHKO`s Lugia after Stealth Rock damage)

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SD quaza can still KO you with +2 outrage, 0ver a 50% chance with stealth rock

what about scarfed gengar? it outspeeds them both, and i'm pretty sure it can OHKO both of them with HP ice. this double draogn strategy relies on one weakening a counter and the other KOing it, but gengar could KO them as they come without getting a scratch on it. I think that a combination like this needs something like wobbuffet or scizor, to trap and kill scarfers that can outspeed +1 speed salamence.

V97 said:

what about scarfed gengar? it outspeeds them both, and i'm pretty sure it can OHKO both of them with HP ice. this double draogn strategy relies on one weakening a counter and the other KOing it, but gengar could KO them as they come without getting a scratch on it. I think that a combination like this needs something like wobbuffet or scizor, to trap and kill scarfers that can outspeed +1 speed salamence.

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you kind of answered your own question here - there are 6 pokemon in a team, not two. someone else on the team would be able to handle scarfgar

Maybe it would be more useful for rayquaza to run the mixed set, and salamence to follow up with a sweep. That way, a lot more counters are more reliably KO'd by rayquaza's higher base sp. atk, and the decrease in power from rayquaza to salamence wouldn't matter too much late game.

I have to say, I tried Mence in Ubers (After seeing this topic), and it's worked brilliantly so far. I had MixQuaza and DDMence go together, and they work really well. MixQuaza lures in Ray counters, namely Palkia and Dialga, and they both get by a Draco Meteor, which either kills or severely cripples, then Mence would come in later and do a killing spree. Set them up with Wobbuffet, and you have massive fun =D

Palkia's base 100 Speed is more than enough for Mence to be considered for Ubers. Scarf Palkia will have to risk a speed tie with a +1 Mence and should Mence fall, you just gained valuable knowledge about your opponent's team. Double Dragon works in OU, its been virtually Omnipresent in Ubers. Considering Mence is tied for the Fastest Dragon that can do mixed (unless you try something crazy like DD Latios), I don't see why not.

Perhaps some sort of Substitute Scout/Mence in Ubers? It can scout Ray's counters, get a hit then Ray will have an easier time sweeping? Seeing how Spikes is much worse in Ubers than it is in OU and the prevalence of suicide leads, you shouldn't have too much trouble killing the Spiker/SR Poke and then using Sub/Roost to scout. Obviously max speed, but I'm not sure if max attack Neutral will secure the same KOs as a lower spread, so some can be put into defences to abuse Intimidate and Roost.

Few notes I have:

On your set theorymon, you could drop Fire Blast for Dragon Claw.. just because if this is to be used in conjuction with Rayquaza, Ray is most likely opening up the holes (which includes Skarm and Forry). The reasoning is the same reason you use Dragon Claw and Outrage together on any dragon, to prevent yourself from being locked in too early. A +1 LO Dragon Claw should take out Lati@, Kingdra, Garchomp, Palkia, other Rayquaza, and even weaker pokemon like Darkrai... (I'm too tired to calc at the moment) without locking yourself in.

Also, the same principle can be used with the mixed-dancer in OU...

Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 28 Atk/228 Spd/252 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
---

This is pure theorymon here, but again, the idea is for Ray to poke holes and eliminate scarfed palkia before hand. The speed will outrun Deoxys-f after a Dragon Dance, with maxed out Special Attack at 319, and the Naughty nature granting you a nice 344 Attack with only that slight investment. Since your first set is +Spe and this example is +Atk, there is less than a 7% reduction in physical damage output. I guess a benefit to using this is like what I mentioned above you can kill a dragon or weaker pokemon beforehand. Salamence's Draco Meteor OHKOs every Dragon in the game (bar Dialga obviously), with a 70% chance to OHKO (w/ SR) the most specially defensive Dragon, Soul Dew Latias (83.6% min damage).

Hmmm... Peep Draco vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Groudon: 67.1-79.5%

Outdamages Outrage at least in that situation.. ehh.. its worth a test right?

More on the subject, Salamence is quite good at ripping holes for Rayquaza to exploit. Scarf Palkia, even if the wins the speed tie with Salamence, is now merely Wobbuffet fodder. Groudon takes hefty damage, preventing it from walling Rayquaza, and even the mighty Lugia is KO'd by a +1 Outrage from Salamence followed by Extremespeed from a Swords Dance Rayquaza. I had my doubts, but Salamence+Rayquaza is a combo to be feared. Just watch out for Lati@s. S/he will rape you if you can't get time to set up. Wobby should solve this problem though.

I have tried DD-Mence is Ubers, and it was very disappointing, it simply doesn´t have the stats to get a DD against most teams, therefore it is worthless most of the time, while Rayquaza can revenge some stuff with ESpeed at least.