Jolteon (Ubers analysis)

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Delta 2777

Machampion
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 10 Champion
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[OVERVIEW]
<p>While at first glance Jolteon would seem to be completely inferior to the other strong special attackers in the Uber tier, Jolteon actually has several significant advantages. With Kyogre providing permanent rain, Jolteon's STAB Thunder becomes 100% accurate, and with a Life Orb attached, Jolteon can actually score many significant OHKOs and 2HKOs on common Uber Pokémon. In addition, due to Thunder being very common in the Uber environment, Jolteon is provided many opportunities to switch in with immunity and immediately threaten back, thanks to Volt Absorb. While Jolteon may struggle to compete with other Uber powerhouses such as Latios, Darkrai and Mewtwo, its powerful STAB and unique ability allow it perform well on teams that require its unique support.</p>

[SET]
name: Sub LO (Ubers)
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Hidden Power [Ice]
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Baton Pass / Fake Tears
item: Life Orb
ability: Volt Absorb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Jolteon can be a magnificently underestimated force in the Uber tier; it's STAB Thunder in conjunction with Volt Absorb allow it many opportunities to switch in and wreak havoc against many common Pokémon in Ubers. Combine this with its base 130 speed, and you have a dangerous eeveelution on your hands. Hidden Power [Ice] is Jolteon's best method of dealing with Rayquaza and Garchomp, along with dealing damage to Giritina-O, Latios and Groudon.</p>

<p>Substitute works great on this set for two reasons. For one, with the many choiced Electric attackers in Ubers, many Pokémon will be forced to switch out, giving Jolteon an opportunity to use Substitute. Jolteon can also force out several non-choiced Pokémon, such as Kyogre or Lugia, should Jolteon see the opportunity for a safe switch in. Secondly, if confronted with something that Jolteon can not deal with, such as Latias or Dialga, Jolteon may use Baton Pass to pass its substitute to a teammate. While it may seem that Jolteon will run out of HP quickly due to Life Orb, Substitute, and Entry Hazards damage piling up, Volt Absorb helps remedy this, granting 25% recovery should Jolteon switch in on an electric move.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Surprisingly, Jolteon scores many significant OHKOs in the Uber tier, thanks to the abundance of Flying types and the prominence of Kyogre. Ho-Oh, Manaphy, Kyogre, Lugia, Darkrai, Shaymin-S, and the Deoxys formes (aside from Deoxys-D) are all OHKO'd by Thunder with the aid of Stealth Rock. Take a look at these damage calculations to see what Jolteon is capable of.</p>

<p>Timid 252 SpAtk LO Thunder vs:</p>
<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>4 HP/0 SpDef Timid Darkrai = 87.6% - 103.5%</li>
<li>0 HP/0 SpDef Hasty Palkia = 60.7% - 71.3%</li>
<li>4 HP/0 SpDef Timid Mewtwo = 69.8% - 82.5%</li>
<li>28 HP/252 SpDef Calm Wobbuffet = 43.2% - 50.8%</li>
<li>252 HP/252 SpDef Careful Forretress = 62.7% - 74%</li>
</ul>

<p>Timid 252 SpAtk LO Hidden power [Ice] vs:</p>
<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>112 HP/0 SpDef Adamant Groudon = 52% - 61.8%</li>
<li>0 HP/0 SpDef Naive Giratina-O = 44.9% - 53.1%</li>
</ul>

<p>While Baton Pass is Jolteon’s best method of supporting its team with Substitutes, Fake Tears is a worthwhile option on Jolteon as well, as it allows Jolteon to essentially cripple its common switch-ins, many of which are nearly OHKO’d after the special defense drop. Both Latias and offensive Dialga, Jolteon’s two best counters, are 2HKO’d by Hidden Power [Ice] and Thunder, respectively. Even Blissey is 2HKO’d after a Fake tears if it has taken almost any prior damage (in addition to Stealth Rock) beforehand.</p>

<p>Choice Scarf users in general also pose a threat to Jolteon, since they bypass Jolteon’s massive speed stat to prey on its weak defenses. As such, it is incredibly helpful to have Pokémon that can take common attacks directed at Jolteon. Bronzong is immune to Earthquake, and is capable of sponging the common dragon type attacks in Ubers, such as that of Choice Scarf Palkia. Lugia is also capable of switching in on common attacks directed at Jolteon, and can also whirlwind away threats such as Bulk Up Dialga.</p>

[Team Options]
<p>Needless to say, Kyogre is a crucial partner for any Ubers Jolteon. Kyogre provides permanent rain to give Thunder 100% accuracy, and also lures in electric attacks that Jolteon loves to switch in on. In addition, Jolteon can pass its substitute to Kyogre, allowing Kyogre a free turn to either Calm Mind or let out a powerful Water Spout without the risk of being attacked. However, Kyogre isn't the only Pokémon that helps this Pokémon’s success; Jolteon appreciates anything that can deal with Dialga, who completely shuts down this set. Latias and Giritina give Jolteon trouble as well, due to their massive defenses. Because of this, Wobbuffet is a great partner, since it can KO the often choice-locked Dialga, or Encore the setup moves of Giritina and Latias. While Groudon would seem to be a decent partner to Jolteon, thanks to its ability to check Dialga and threaten Blissey and Dialga, Groudon’s Drought ability turns Thunder into a 50% accurate move, so if planning on using Groudon with Jolteon, make sure the sun is away before Jolteon is sent out.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock is practically a necessity when using Jolteon, as it ensures OHKOs on Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Shaymin-S, and Darkrai. Deoxys-S is a great partner because of this, as it can lay down Stealth Rock against almost every single lead in the game with certainty, and often lay down a layer of spikes or two as well. Deoxys-A works similarly to Deoxys-S, and although it does not have Deoxys-S’s speed or defenses, it can dispose of opposing Groudon and Dialga, two of Jolteon’s most common switch-ins, with Grass Knot or Superpower respectively. Bronzong is also a great Stealth Rock user in the Ubers tier, and is good at taking attacks often directed at Jolteon. Skarmory works in a similar fashion to Bronzong, except it lays down spikes rather than Stealth Rock. It should also be advised that if planning on using Spikes as well as Stealth Rock that you have a ghost type on your team. Giritina-O is probably the best candidate for this task, as it can maintain the offensive momentum that Jolteon often brings to the field, appreciates the substitutes that Jolteon can Baton pass, and boasts an immunity to Jolteon’s only weakness.</p>

[Optional Changes]
<p>Shadow Ball can be used over Hidden Power [Ice] or Substitute to hit Latias, Latios, and the Giritina formes harder, but the increase in power from Hidden Power [Ice] is very small. Keep in mind that a neutral Thunder from Jolteon will hit harder than a 2x Super Effective Hidden Power or Shadow Ball.</p>

<p>A Choice Specs set is viable, but one must wonder if it would really be worth it, since unlike the LO set, the user must predict perfectly in order for the set to pay off. Jolteon would also be unable to support its team with Substitutes if it chooses to use a Choice set. Choice Scarf falls into a similar boat, and while it can be useful for revenge killing threats such as DD Rayquaza, the loss of power is very noticeable and Jolteon doesn’t outspeed much that superior Choice Scarf users, such as Palkia, don’t. Charge Beam may sound appealing, but Jolteon will rarely find an opportunity to use the move, and an even rarer time sweeping with it.</p>

<p>As far as EVs go, maximum special attack and speed are essential, with the last point going into defense to take priority moves such as Scizor’s Bullet Punch and Rayquaza’s Extremespeed better.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Countering Jolteon is actually more difficult than it would first seem, since it can always set up a substitute and Baton Pass away from a potential counter. Dialga is Jolteon’s best counter, as it can OHKO Jolteon with a STAB Draco Meteor or Outrage, or set up on it with Bulk Up. Defensive variants of Dialga are only 5-6HKO’d by Thunder, while it can OHKO back after 1 Bulk Up. Both Latias and Latios give Jolteon trouble as well, due to their already massive special defense being boosted by Soul Dew, and having a resistance to Thunder. Meanwhile, both can OHKO back. Giritina is capable of taking Jolteon’s Hidden Power [Ice] all day, and only fears Fake Tears followed by a super effective Hidden Power or Shadow Ball (it still will not OHKO, however). Giritina-O can Calm Mind on Jolteon, although some variants risk being 2HKO’d after Stealth Rock. Lastly, Blissey with her massive Special Defense is capable of switching in on Jolteon with relative impunity, threatening back with Seismic Toss. Watch out for Fake Tears, however, as a -2 Blissey is nearly 2HKO’d by Thunder after Stealth Rock.</p>
 
If you guys need logs I'll get some and post them here.
EDIT: My bad, changing Other Options with Optional Changes. However I assure you there are not "loads of errors," there are probably several minor grammatical errors that need to be pointed out though.
 
You are currently using an incorrect term; you should call "Other Options" "Optional Changes". Also, you should mix the EVs section with Optional Changes. There are probably loads of errors (I haven't even read this set) and so I may bop back in and scour the analysis thoroughly later.
 
[OVERVIEW]
<p>While at first glance Jolteon would seem to be completely inferior to the other strong special attackers in the Uber tier, Jolteon actually has several significant advantages. With Kyogre providing permanent rain, Jolteon's STAB Thunder becomes 100% accurate, and with a Life Orb attached, Jolteon can actually score many significant OHKOs and 2HKOs on common Uber Pokémon. In addition, due to Thunder being very common in the Uber environment, Jolteon is provided many opportunities to switch in with immunity and immediately threaten back, thanks to Volt Absorb. While Jolteon may struggle to compete with other Uber powerhouses such as Latios, Darkrai and Mewtwo, its powerful STAB and unique ability allow it perform well on teams that require its (took away unique) support.</p>


<p>Substitute works great on this set (took away "as well")for two reasons. For one, with the many choiced Electric attackers in Ubers, many Pokémon will be forced to switch out, giving Jolteon an opportunity to use Substitute. Jolteon can also force out several non-choiced Pokémon, such as Kyogre or Lugia, should Jolteon see the opportunity for a safe switch in. Secondly, if confronted with something that Jolteon can not deal with, such as Latias or Dialga, Jolteon may use Baton Pass to pass its Substitute(deleted the s) to a teammate. While it may seem that Jolteon will run out of HP quickly due to Life Orb, Substitute, and Entry Hazards damage piling up, Volt Absorb helps remedy this, granting 25% recovery should Jolteon switch in on an electric move.</p>


[Team Options]
<p>Needless to say, Kyogre is a crucial partner for any Ubers Jolteon. Kyogre provides permanent rain to give Thunder 100% accuracy, and also lures in electric attacks that Jolteon loves to switch in on. In addition, Jolteon can pass Substitutes to Kyogre, allowing Kyogre a free turn to either Calm Mind or let out a powerful Water Spout without the risk of being attacked. However, Kyogre isn't the only Pokémon that helps this Pokémon’s success; Jolteon appreciates anything that can deal with Dialga, who completely shuts down this set. Latias and Giritina give Jolteon trouble as well, due to their massive defenses. Because of this, Wobbuffet is a great partner, since it can KO the often choice-locked Dialga, or Encore the setup moves of Giritina and Latias. While Groudon would seem to be a decent partner to Jolteon, thanks to its ability to check Dialga and threaten Blissey and Dialga, Groudon’s Drought ability turns Thunder into a 50% accurate move, so if planning on using Groudon with Jolteon, make sure the sun is away before Jolteon is sent out.</p>


[Counters]
<p>Countering Jolteon is actually more difficult than it would first seem, since it can always set up a substitute and Baton Pass away from a potential counter. Dialga is Jolteon’s best counter, as it can OHKO Jolteon with a STAB Draco Meteor or Outrage, or set up on it with Bulk Up. Defensive variants of Dialga are only 5-6HKO’d by Thunder, while it can OHKO back after 1 Bulk Up. Both Latias and Latios give Jolteon trouble as well, due to their already massive special defense being boosted by Soul Dew, and having a resistance to Thunder. Meanwhile, both can OHKO back. Giritina is capable of taking Jolteon’s Hidden Power [Ice] all day, and only fears Fake Tears followed by a super effective Hidden Power or Shadow Ball (it still will not OHKO, however). Giritina-O can Calm Mind on Jolteon, although some variants risk being 2HKO’d after Stealth Rock. Lastly, Blissey with her massive Special Defense is capable of switching in on Jolteon (Got rid of the part about Blissey having massive special defense, was said in the same sentence) and threatening back with Seismic Toss. Watch out for Fake Tears, however, as a -2 Blissey is nearly 2HKO’d by Thunder after Stealth Rock.</p>

You mention Dialga quite a lot, and a mention of Dialga walling Jolteon is present almost everywhere in the analysis. There were some parts that I got rid of, just minor nitpicks, but otherwise, does the 4 Def EVs really do anything to help Jolteon take hits better?

It's not too different from the SubPasser set already on site, except that it's focusing more on being offensive with Thunder in the rain.
 
so heres the thing. if its not raining jolteon is useless essentially. Against any well played team with groudon you are in trouble. At least palkia, kingdra, ludicolo have something to severley screw up groudon while with jolteon you have to predict correctly and hit it with hidden power ice on the switch in. After groudon is in jolteon is complete forry bait, and with toxic spikes up jotleon is going to be more useless that before.

I dont see the merit of using this over kingdra as he is faster, more powerful and also has better STABs.
 
While it may seem that Jolteon will run out of HP quickly due to Life Orb, Substitute, and Entry Hazards damage piling up, Volt Absorb helps remedy this, granting 25% recovery should Jolteon switch in on an electric move.

After your opponent knows you have Jolteon, you'll have a very hard time getting Jolteon in on an electric move.

Also, Jolteon is terribly vulnerable to priority and can't stand up to Ubers special attackers. I'm questioning the viability of this when there are many stronger and more reliable special attackers available.

Deoxys-A works similarly to Deoxys-S, and although it does not have Deoxys-S’s speed or defenses, it can dispose of opposing Groudon and Dialga, two of Jolteon’s most common switch-ins, with Grass Knot or Superpower respectively.

Not that good of a teammate, given that Deoxys-A can't switch into anything. And no player is going to let their Dialga or Groudon stay in on Deoxys-A.
 
First of all, you have to reserve a thread before posting one.

Second of all, this really needs logs. I have tested an LO Charge Beam Jolteon myself, and while it was decent, I am actually unsure if its analysis worthy, mostly because Mewtwo did a lot of things Jolteon does better. So please PM me, Bojangles, and Jibaku with some logs of this set.
 
Not that good of a teammate, given that Deoxys-A can't switch into anything. And no player is going to let their Dialga or Groudon stay in on Deoxys-A.

what if it is a bulky dialga or a bulky groudon, I would not leave dialga or groudon in on Deoxys-A, I would switch to a blissey or mew and then attempt to use T-wave/will-o-wisp. afterwords I would kill it with its low defences
 
Moved to qc because I am unsure about Jolteon's viability in Ubers. I may retest it later.
 
Bump after nearly three months.

Like I have said in the past, Jolteon has a niche in Ubers thanks to its blinding speed, immunity to both Thunder and Thunder Wave, a STAB Thunder of its own to OHKO many common Uber Pokemon with the aid of Stealth Rock (Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Manaphy, Lugia, and all Deoxys formes), along with dealing hefty damage (over 60% minimum) to many other common Pokemon in Ubers such as Forretress, Mewtwo (chance to be OHKOed with SR and a layer of spikes), and Palkia. Jolteon is also never OHKOed by an unboosted SD Rayquaza's Extremespeed, While Jolteon can OHKO it back (along with Garchomp) with HP Ice.
 
Tested. Sorry, but I feel that Jolteon is an inferior Mewtwo. The only thing it has over it is the ability to swap into Electric-type attacks, but if you mispredict you die since Jolteon is so frail. Mewtwo's higher Special Attack and MUCH superior type coverage cancels out Jolteon's advantage of a more powerful Thunder, and as others have said once rain is gone Jolt is useless. Mewtwo is also bulky enough to actually take a decently powered hit, unlike Jolteon.

32110-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Red-Circular-Stamp-With-Quality-Control-Rejected-Text-Over-A-White-Background.jpg
(1/3)

Sorry bro.
 
It was a hard choice... but honestly like fireburn said, Mewtwo was mostly better. The only real advantage I found to using Jolteon was that I was using it with Mewtwo (for the purpose of having two 130 base Speed Pokemon that arent OHKOed by Bullet Punch. Im not going to Reject this YET, as I feel that I need to retest the whole Mewtwo + Jolteon thing. Even then, its not looking good for Jolteon.
 
The only thing that separates Mewtwo from Jolteon in Ubers is that Jolteon has access to Baton Pass and Volt Absorb, which allows Jolteon to pass off Substitutes (which could allow some of your sweepers to set up a sweep). Mewtwo is unable to do this, as well as being unable to switch into electric moves.

also, can Thunderbolt instead of Thunder work if there is no Sun? It still 2HKOs the aforementioned threats, and you should beat Darkrai anyways since you're faster.
 
This is a very good set.

Obviously easy to counter, this set still utilizes Jolteon in an effective manner in the Uber environment.

Thunder 2HKO's/1HKO's Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Lugia and Metagross, 4 very common pokemon in the Uber metagame.

Hidden Power ICE easily lets Jolteon shit on Rayquaza and Salamence, with Jolteon's insane speed to keep them from even contemplating taking Jolteon on.



And the answer to Groudon is subsitute+baton pass, as you substitute on the switch-in and then baton pass to latios/latias/ho-oh to avoid an earthquake and then calm mind to sweep.
 
Keep in mind that I used this set with Kingdra to lure in and eliminate Groudon, I should probably have included that in the description but I neglected to. Additionally, I (ab)used Pokemon that are commonly targets of Thunder and Thunder Wave (Kingdra, Kyogre (Shaymin-S might be a good idea too)) to give Jolteon more room to switch in (and if your opponent strays away from using electric moves because they're scared of Jolteon, you can use that to your advantage).

Perfectly reasonable reasoning, Fireburn, of course I disagree from experience but to each his own.

Again, that's fine Theorymon, and also I reccomend using a team that lures in electric moves for Jolteon to switch in on. Additionally, keep in mind that Jolteon does more damage to neutral targets than Mewtwo, making it a better cleaner while making Mewtwo a better wall-breaker (and of course Jolteon can also pass Substitutes).

Misa, Thunderbolt misses out on some important KOs, mainly on Kyogre, who is too important of a target to pass up.
 
Misa, Thunderbolt misses out on some important KOs, mainly on Kyogre, who is too important of a target to pass up.
If you're carrying Life Orb (which you should), Thunderbolt does plenty of damage to Kyogre.

This is assuming that your team doesn't have a Kyogre and the opposing team does. The reason I suggested Thunderbolt is that Thunder is completely useless without the rain.
 
Kyogre is used on over 40% of teams by the June stats. Rain is almost omnipresent in Ubers, meaning many things can simply rely on Thunder.
 
just curious: why not use shadow ball over hp ice? It hits Latios, Giratina, and all those other cool dudes harder. I guess you do less to Groudon, but you can BP out of him.
 
I think it would be rather underwhelming, because Jolteon wearing Choice Specs vs Mewtwo wearing Choice Specs, Jolteon gets a small power boost on Thunder which turns a few 2HKOs with SR into 2HKOs without it, and other then that, Mewtwo is working off a much higher SpA. If used in conjunction I guess one could "double up" per say, but other then that I don't see Jolteon doing much that Mewtwo can't.
 
okay sorry, Im rejecting Jolteon. It just doesn't have enough over Mewtwo to be that good, and its not like Salamence + Rayquaza where they can destroy their counters. off to the locked analyses this goes.
 
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