Heracross (Update)

Hey guys. Heracross is currently in need of a major analysis update, as he lacks the new format (Overview + [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]) and the comments in some of the sections are really lacking. After getting the thumbs up from Phil, I've provided the skeleton sets that will be included in his analysis. Feel free to make suggestions to the sets, I'm all ears. Thanks!
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Heracross
Status: Comments need to be written.

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[Overview]

<p>Heracross lives a tough life in OU play. As the metagame continues to grow faster and faster, Heracross's middling Speed is just not quite up to par with other dominant threats, and is not sturdy enough to take powerful blows from opponents, save super effective ones. Most importantly, however, Heracross faces stiff competition with his part Fighting-type counterpart Lucario. Lucario's superior typing allows him to set up on many Pokemon locked into a certain attack, such as Outrage, Pursuit, and Stone Edge, is faster than Heracross, and has access to priority in ExtremeSpeed and Bullet Punch. All of these negative factors contribute to Heracross's usage spiraling downwards, getting to the point where he crosses the line to no-man's land; the BL tier.</p>

<p>Despite Heracross's shortcomings, he does have a lot of potential to be a menacing threat in the metagame. With his massive Attack and high-powered STAB moves in Close Combat and Megahorn, along with Swords Dance, it's not very hard for Heracross to score a few kills. Unlike Lucario, Heracross can also fill an effective bulky attacker role with Bulk Up, as his 80/75/95 defenses is surely nothing to scoff at. However, those are just the icing on the cake. The major selling point of Heracross is his Guts ability. This helps him avoid being hit by status from the likes of Rotom-A or Blissey, because if they do end up striking Heracross with Will-O-Wisp or Toxic, respectively, Heracross turns into an absolute monster. All in all, with the right support, Heracross will be an impressive addition to your team; just be sure you are playing to his strengths, otherwise you are better off using Lucario.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Close Combat
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Toxic / Night Slash / Sleep Talk
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Guts
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Heracross's mediocre Speed is his greatest flaw when it comes to sweeping, as many faster opponents can easily revenge-kill him. This is where Choice Scarf comes in to assist Heracross in outpacing a large portion of the metagame and firing off his powerful STAB attacks. With Choice Scarf, though, Heracross does lose a lot immediate power unlike his Choice Band and Swords Dance sets, so the general playstyle of Choice Scarf Heracross is basically limited to revenge-killing threats or using Heracross's resistances and decent overall defenses to come in when possible to ward off the opponent. However, if you are able to lure in Toxic or Will-O-Wisp for Heracross to active his Guts ability, he becomes an incredibly dangerous sweeper who your opponent must look out for.</p>

<p>Close Combat and Megahorn, two excellently powered STAB attacks, provide Heracross with near-perfect type coverage together, only resisted by Poison-, Flying-, and Ghost-types. The last two moveslots are reserved for coverage purposes. Stone Edge is almost essential on Heracross, as Heracross's STAB attacks mainly draw in Flying-types such as Zapdos, Salamence, and Gyarados, all of whom take a heavy blow from it. Heracross has a lot of interesting options available to him for his final attack. Because Heracross is not as powerful when holding a Choice Scarf, bulky Pokemon have no trouble switching into him and forcing him out, which is why Toxic takes priority as Heracross's fourth move. Pokemon such as Swampert, Hippowdon, Vaporeon, and Gliscor absolutely hate being inflicted with poison status, and they won't even suspect it coming since your opponent is made to believe Choice Scarf Heracross is only carrying damaging attacks. If you are not too fond of locking Heracross into using a status attack that can be easily absorbed by the ever-present Steel-types, Night Slash is a respectable alternative. Rotom-A is one of Heracross's most common switch-ins, being immune to Close Combat and resisting Megahorn, and so hitting it super effectively with Night Slash is very beneficial. There is one last move that can be worthy in certain scenarios: Sleep Talk. Though it may seem a little unreliable due to your opponent needing a sleep-inducing Pokemon for it to work, Heracross can be a dangerous threat with his Guts-boosted attacks when asleep. However, like Toxic, being locked into Sleep Talk opens up opportunities for the opponent to set up, so use it with caution.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Despite Heracross using Choice Scarf, a Jolly nature is still recommended because it allows Heracross to outpace Timid Choice Scarf Heatran, Jolly Gyarados after a Dragon Dance, and Modest Empoleon after an Agility, among many others. However, if your team is able to handle these threats and you are more interested in power, Adamant is a perfectly acceptable option.</p>

<p>It's important to capitalize on the unique traits Heracross has, the most important of those being his Guts ability. For this reason, using Pokemon that attract burn or poison status are excellent teammates to consider, because if Heracross does happen to switch into either of those status effects, your opponent is in for a serious beating. Metagross and Swampert are good candidates to fit this role, as the former commonly lures Will-O-Wisp and the latter Toxic. Furthermore, Swampert sets up Stealth Rock which helps against the many Flying-types switching into Heracross and also gives Hippowdon and Gliscor a hard time. Speaking of Stealth Rock, Spikes support is highly recommended as Heracross really appreciates the entry hazard support, as they can help him score kills that he otherwise wouldn't be able to achieve; Skarmory and Forretress are perfect Spikes users to look into. Rotom-A and Skarmory are issues Heracross will come across frequently, so packing a Pokemon that can easily defeat these two is highly recommended. Heatran, who can even switch into Overheat from Rotom-H for a Flash Fire boost, fits the bill perfectly, scorching both with his high-powered Fire Blast.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Close Combat
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Pursuit / Sleep Talk
item: Choice Band
ability: Guts
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While Choice Scarf Heracross focuses on outpacing and revenge-killing threats, Choice Band Heracross takes a completely different route. With his already high base 125 Attack stat, Heracross becomes a monster when equipped with Choice Band, skyrocketing his Attack to massive levels. Furthermore, the majority of sweepers greatly dislike being hit by status, especially when physical sweepers lose 50% of their power when crippled by burn, but this is not the case with Heracross. If you can bring him in on a status attack like Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, the power Heracross will wield becomes ridiculous, reaching a whopping 861 Attack with an Adamant nature or 784 Attack with a Jolly nature. The only downside to Choice Band Heracross is the lackluster Speed he sits at, leaving him vulnerable to fast, strong threats, which is rather unfortunate for the powerful sweeper Heracross is.</p>

<p>Again, Close Combat and Megahorn are used to provide Heracross with two excellent STAB attacks, both packing 120 Base Power, while Stone Edge allows Heracross to pound Flying-types such as Gyarados, Zapdos, and Salamence, all of whom are common switch-ins to Heracross. Pursuit takes precedence for the last slot, as Heracross has a very unique niche as a Pursuit trapper. Every Pursuit user in OU is severely crippled by Will-O-Wisp from Rotom-A, the Pokemon whom you would most commonly unleash your Pursuiter; however, in the case of Heracross, he can fearlessly switch into Rotom-A to gain a Guts boost and then dispose of it with Pursuit. With your opponent's Ghost-type out of the way, Heracross can then wreak havoc with Guts and Choice Band boosted Close Combats or Megahorns. If you already have a Pokemon that can remove Ghost-types from battle, though, Sleep Talk is a fine alternative fourth move.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A Jolly nature is recommended to maximize Heracross's Speed to the fullest, which is important considering how he doesn't have the best of Speed stats. This also lets him outpace Pokemon such as Timid Heatran, Jolly Gyarados, and Adamant Lucario. An Adamant nature can be used if you prefer additional power, but Heracross will usually benefit more from the boost in Speed than Attack.</p>

<p>Just like the Choice Scarf set, the strategy of luring in Pokemon that use status for Heracross to switch into is encouraged. Rotom-A is the primary user of Will-O-Wisp, and so by using a Pokemon that lures it in, such as Metagross or Jirachi, Heracross can absorb the Will-O-Wisp and proceed to Pursuit Rotom-A to death. Entry hazard support is also very useful, as it helps Heracross guarantee certain OHKOs and 2HKOs. For example, offensive Gyarados is OHKOed by an Intimidated Jolly Stone Edge with Stealth Rock, while 252 HP Jirachi is OHKOed by Close Combat or Megahorn after taking damage from Stealth Rock and two layers of Spikes. Swampert and Skarmory are excellent Pokemon to provide Stealth Rock and Spikes support, respectively, and they also cover all of Heracross's weaknesses together.</p>

[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Megahorn
move 4: Facade / Night Slash
item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
ability: Guts
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The sheer power Heracross boasts after a Guts and Swords Dance boost is absolutely devastating, making this the prime Heracross set for complete destruction. Once Heracross is boosted by one Swords Dance and Guts, he reaches an impeccable Attack stat of 1047, out-powering his Swords Dancing rival, Lucario, by a huge number. Also because of Guts, Heracross is not instantly shutdown by status effects, particularly Will-O-Wisp, unlike other boosting sweepers.</p>

<p>Like always, Close Combat and Megahorn provide Heracross with an excellent STAB attacking core, both of which boast a high Base Power of 120. The major difference with Swords Dance Heracross from his other offensive sets is Facade. Facade gets boosted to 140 Base Power when Heracross is inflicted with status, allowing him to crush opponents who are resistant to Heracross's STAB attacks, such as Gyarados, Zapdos, and Gliscor. However, if you really want to always kill defensive Rotom-A and hit other Ghost-types super effectively, Night Slash may be used.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>To demonstrate the amount of power this Heracross packs, below are several damage calculations portraying the massive damage output against common threats in the OU metagame. These calculations are assuming Heracross has a Swords Dance and Guts boost.</p>

<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Impish Skarmory: 97% - 114%</li>
<li>Close Combat vs 252 HP/144 Def Relaxed Forretress: 98% - 116%</li>
<li>Close Combat/Megahorn vs 252 HP/252 Def Bold Suicune: 92% - 109%</li>
<li>Close Combat/Megahorn vs 188 HP/252 Def Bold Vaporeon: 125% - 147%</li>
<li>Close Combat/Megahorn vs 252 HP/168 Def Impish Hippowdon: 92% - 109%</li>
<li>Facade vs 252 HP/252 Def Impish Gyarados: 70% - 83%</li>
<li>Facade vs 248 HP/228 Def Bold Zapdos: 94% - 111%</li>
<li>Facade vs 252 HP/252 Def Impish Gliscor: 78% - 92%</li>
<li>Night Slash vs 252 HP/252 Def Bold Rotom-A: 100% - 118%</li>
<li>Night Slash vs 252 HP/252 Def Impish Dusknoir: 88% - 104%</li>
</ul>

<p>The ideal items for this Heracross are Flame Orb or Toxic Orb, both having their advantages and disadvantages. Flame Orb is more useful if you plan to keep Heracross in play for a long period of time, as the gradual burn damage does not accumulate, unlike being badly poisoned. However, if you insist on using Heracross as a quick hit-and-run attacker and then setting up Swords Dance late-game, Toxic Orb may be the better option as the poison status only does 18% damage over two turns, while burn status does 24%. If either item does not appeal to you, though, Life Orb or Leftovers are both viable alternatives. The benefit of using Life Orb is that Heracross does not take constant damage every turn when he doesn't attack someone; but, one of the biggest selling points of using Life Orb is that you can bring in Heracross on a status effect and activate his Guts ability, leaving him with dangerous boosts from Swords Dance, Guts, and Life Orb. Leftovers, on the other hand, takes a slightly more defensive approach in that it restores Heracross's health a bit each turn and allows Heracross to take less damage from burn and poison status should he happen to switch into one of them.</p>

<p>Because Heracross is incredibly powerful after a Swords Dance and Guts boost, Stealth Rock is the only entry hazard support Heracross needs to secure certain OHKOs against the bulkiest of threats, as shown in the aforementioned damage calculations. Jirachi is an excellent Pokemon to supply Stealth Rock because of its excellent bulk and resistances to all of Heracross's weaknesses. Dual screeen support is also possible to help ease Heracross's Swords Dance set-up so he can sweep with a decent amount of health leftover. Since Heracross isn't particularly fast and bulky, he's susceptible to revenge-kills from faster threats and priority abusers. For this reason, paralysis support is recommended to slow the opposing team down for Heracross to have an easier time sweeping. If you wish to take it to the next level, using Torment Heatran can cripple Choiced attackers who try to revenge-kill Heracross, such as Flygon and Jirachi. Heatran also soundly eliminates Scizor, the most common user of priority in OU.</p>

[SET]
name: Offensive Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Low Kick / Brick Break
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
ability: Guts
nature: Jolly
evs: 208 HP / 104 Atk / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Heracross has another stat-boosting move available to it in the form of Bulk Up. While this set is handled more defensively than Heracross's Swords Dance set, it can still become a dangerous sweeping force when played correctly. The basic premise of this set is to bring Heracross in on a non-threatening attacker, such as Swampert and Celebi, begin Bulk Up boosting, and then fire off boosted attacks at will. Heracross is a really underrated threat, but once he gets the opportunity to set up, he will surely cause some extreme damage to the opponent's team.</p>

<p>Megahorn is used for the same reasons stated in Heracross's previous sets, but the second slot is open to two unique options. Close Combat is discouraged from use because it lowers Heracross's defenses once used, which essentially defeats the purpose of this set; therefore, Low Kick or Brick Break take its place.

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Although Heracross isn't as immediately dangerous as Swords Dance or Flame Orb Heracross with Bulk Up, it is still highly effective.
  • Takes advantage of Heracross's respectable bulk.
  • The opponent must think twice before crippling Heracross to reduce his longevity, as he will just get increased power.
Additional Comments:

  • 208 HP allows for the highest possible Leftovers number.
  • Enough Speed to outrun Heatran and Adamant Lucario.
Teammates and Counters:

  • Same support and most issues from Swords Dance and Flame Orb Heracross apply here as well.
[SET]
name: Defensive Bulk Up
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Bulk Up
move 4: Megahorn
item: Leftovers
ability: Guts
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Heracross is primarily seen as an offensive Pokemon, whether he is abusing Choice items or going all-out with a Swords Dance set; however, this set attempts to break that mold by using Heracross's respectable special bulk in tandem with Bulk Up. Although this kind of Heracross is not immediately threatening as most of his other sets, in the proper hands he can be a potent sweeper who is surprisingly difficult to stop. With the high HP and Special Defense investment, Heracross is capable of setting up on many popular special attackers, such as Rotom-A, Vaporeon, and defensive Starmie.</p>

<p>Bulk Up is the crux of this set, being mainly used for defensive purposes to compensate for Heracross's rather low physical bulk while simultaneously powering up his Attack to high levels. Once Heracross has obtained a few Bulk Up boosts, he becomes really difficult for the opponent to kill without any powerful super effective attacks. As Heracross begins to get low on health, this is where Rest and Sleep Talk play in. While Heracross is sleeping, his Guts ability activates and makes him arguably the strongest RestTalker in the OU metagame, reaching a high 598 Attack stat with just a Guts and Bulk Up boost. Also because of Guts, Heracross makes a superb status absorber for teams that are status weak; best of all, the common users of status, such as Rotom-A, Vaporeon, and Celebi, are set-up bait for Heracross. The final moveslot is given to Heracross's only attack: Megahorn. Megahorn is used as the STAB attack of choice because if Heracross was to use Close Combat instead, his defenses would be lowered upon every use, which contradicts the point of this set, and Ghost-types become impassable. Also, with Megahorn's high 120 Base Power, targets who resist it still take huge amounts of damage if Heracross has a few Bulk Ups under his belt.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread is geared towards maximizing Heracross's special bulk, as his Special Defense is not being boosted. With 252 HP and 216 Special Defense along with a Careful nature, Heracross has the ability to survive two of defensive Zapdos's Heat Waves. The remaining 40 EVs are placed into Attack to give Heracross's Megahorn a bit more power. If you want even more power, using an Adamant nature instead of a Careful nature is acceptable, but the lost Special Defense prevents Heracross from setting up as easily against special threats.</p>

<p>Aiding this Heracross with paralysis support is strongly recommended, as it allows Heracross to set up Bulk Ups and use Rest before the opponent has a chance to attack. It can even potentially give Heracross free Bulk Up boosts if the opponent becomes fully paralyzed. Jirachi and Snorlax are excellent partners to consider for spreading paralysis, the former resisting Heracross's Psychic- and Flying-type weaknesses and the latter resisting Heracross's Fire-type weakness through Thick Fat; these two Pokemon also lure in Rotom-A for Heracross to set-up on. Because Heracross is only using one attack in Megahorn, it's important to remove the bulky Pokemon resistant to it, such as Heatran, Gyarados, Skarmory, and although not bulky, Lucario due to his 4x resistance. For this reason, Choice Scarf Rotom-A and Calm Mind Suicune are great Pokemon to consider, as both of them can take care of every aforementioned Pokemon. Gyarados, Skarmory, and Lucario all fall prey to Rotom-A's Thunderbolt and Heatran is soundly removed by Suicune.</p>

[SET]
name: Substitute
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Megahorn
move 4: Stone Edge / Night Slash
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:

  • Prediction is one of Heracross's issues, so this set eases prediction through the use of Substitute.
Additional Comments:

  • 16 HP is used for a Leftovers number, while 240 Spe allows Heracross to outpace Timid Heatran, Jolly Gyarados, and neutral-nature Rotom-A.
  • Both abilities work well here. Substitute can bring Heracross into Swarm range, but Guts is useful in case Heracross gets hit by status from the likes of Toxic Spikes or the Rotom formes.
Teammates and Counters:

  • Depending on last slot, has problems with Flying- or Ghost-types. Scizor or Snorlax can be used as Pursuiters for the Ghosts, as Tyranitar's sandstorm hinders this set. Stealth Rock hurts most Flying-types, so that should be set up.
  • Bulky Waters can handle most Flying-types, such as Gyarados and Gliscor, and Skarmory and Zapdos can be handled by Heatran.
 
I think Sleep Talk deserves a mention on the Choice set. Heracross is already a fantastic status absorber (thanks to Guts), so why not add sleep to the list?

Hrm.. can't think of anything else at the moment. 8:30 AM.. .__.
 
I would actually make the first set Jolly / Adamant for both items because not outspeeding Heatran is sad and being able to revenge kill Agiligross, SubPetaya Empoleon, and Jolly Gyarados in a pinch is still useful. However, you should note the huge loss in power if using Choice Band.
 
I strongly agree with slashing in Sleep Talk on the Choice set. The big lure of it is that he gains a Guts boost from being asleep and can fire off one of his attacks at that boost immediately. Sure, it glitches after the first attack, but it still has its uses if your team needs a sleep absorber.
 
I think Sleep Talk deserves a mention on the Choice set. Heracross is already a fantastic status absorber (thanks to Guts), so why not add sleep to the list?

I was never a fan of having Choiced Pokemon with Sleep Talk in their moveset, but I can see how it can be useful to Heracross. Being able to absorb sleep and then firing off Guts-boosted attacks backed up by Choice Scarf or Choice Band is pretty awesome. I will make a mention of it in the [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] section.

I would actually make the first set Jolly / Adamant for both items because not outspeeding Heatran is sad and being able to revenge kill Agiligross, SubPetaya Empoleon, and Jolly Gyarados in a pinch is still useful. However, you should note the huge loss in power if using Choice Band.

Yeah I agree with you. Heracross could really use Jolly even with Choice Scarf to enhance his revenge-killing ability. Also, the loss of power can be dealt with by switching into Toxic or Will-O-Wisp which are common in the metagame.
 
K, I have two things. I don't like Swords Dance Heracross in OU at all since Heracross gets ass raped by CB Scizor's Bullet Punch which is just everywhere. While I certainly wouldnt remove it, I don't think it deserves to be so high anymore because it requires more support and is less "viable" currently speaking. I think the Bulk Up sets are more useful now for that reason alone.

Also, SubSalac Heracross needs to be on there.

[SET]
name: SubSalac Heracross (can we just name it MOP Cross?)
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Close Combat
move 4: Megahorn
item: Salac Berry
ability: Swarm
nature: Jolly
IVs: 30 HP (I'll check this in a minute)
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

This set is frighteningly powerful and good.. however its viability again is reduced thanks to Scizor :(.

Close Combat is more useful than Stone Edge contrary to popular belief. 100% accuracy and 120 BP is too good to pass up. Swarmed Megahorn even at +1 (Intimidate) OHKOs Gyarados and Salamence with SR. And Gliscor flat out can't hurt you since none of them run Aerial Ace, so you can wail away with Megahorn until he has to Roost.
 
First of all CB>CS and can we just put sleep talk in the CB set already in the last slot o.o. I've been using CB Heracross in dppt for years and Sleep Talk has almost always been the better choice than Pursuit, Night Slash, and Toxic on Choice Band set due to the presence of Breloom. But the Choice Scarf set, Sleep Talk is not as good which makes Night Slash the superior option for hitting Rotom-A.
 
Here are the QC results for Heracross:

Heracross:
-Combined "Bulk Up" and "Bulk Up (Rest + Sleep Talk)" with the latter being the primary option***
-Removed Reversal set
-Removed Swarm set (Sub Salac)
-Removed Sleep Talk set
-Slashed Sleep Talk on both Choice sets

Slasing Sleep Talk on the Choice sets is a must. Also, Swords Dance and Flame Orb can probably be combined, slashing Life Orb and Flame Orb, and just calling it Swords Dance. Sub Salac with Scizor and Luke so popular... I can't support that.
 
Why would you combine the Bulk Up sets when they play 100% differently? The Bulk Up non RestTalk set was created for that very purpose.

Sub Salac with Scizor and Luke so popular... I can't support that.
That is irrelevant considering that when they aren't present the set flat out works. Justinawe won Smogon Tour with that set! It's not like Magnezone or Scizor lures don't exist...? The same can be said about the standard Swords Dance set that still will be on the analysis
 
Also, SubSalac Heracross needs to be on there.

[SET]
name: SubSalac Heracross (can we just name it MOP Cross?)
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Close Combat
move 4: Megahorn
item: Salac Berry
ability: Swarm
nature: Jolly
IVs: 30 HP (I'll check this in a minute)
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

This set is frighteningly powerful and good.. however its viability again is reduced thanks to Scizor :(.

Substitute + Pinch Berry sets really aren't worth it anymore in today's metagame, mainly because of all of the residual damage and priority running around. For example, this Heracross easily loses to Scizor or Metagross's Bullet Punch, Infernape's Mach Punch, Empoleon's Aqua Jet, and Lucario's ExtremeSpeed. Furthermore, the prevalence of sandstorm basically shuts the purpose of this set down. The only Pokemon that can really pull off a SubBerry set is Empoleon, since he has resistances to practically every priority move and is immune to sandstorm. I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to pass.

First of all CB>CS and can we just put sleep talk in the CB set already in the last slot o.o. I've been using CB Heracross in dppt for years and Sleep Talk has almost always been the better choice than Pursuit, Night Slash, and Toxic on Choice Band set due to the presence of Breloom. But the Choice Scarf set, Sleep Talk is not as good which makes Night Slash the superior option for hitting Rotom-A.

Ok, I will put Sleep Talk in the place of Toxic and mention Toxic in the comments instead. Thanks!

Here are the QC results for Heracross:

Heracross:
-Combined "Bulk Up" and "Bulk Up (Rest + Sleep Talk)" with the latter being the primary option***
-Removed Reversal set
-Removed Swarm set (Sub Salac)
-Removed Sleep Talk set
-Slashed Sleep Talk on both Choice sets

Slasing Sleep Talk on the Choice sets is a must. Also, Swords Dance and Flame Orb can probably be combined, slashing Life Orb and Flame Orb, and just calling it Swords Dance. Sub Salac with Scizor and Luke so popular... I can't support that.

Great, thanks Phil! I slashed in Sleep Talk on the Choice sets and have combined the Swords Dance and Flame Orb sets. However, I disagree with combining the Bulk Up and RestTalk sets together, as they play very differently from each other. They're too different from each other to be combined into one, as you can see with the moves used and the points I've provided in the OP. I will see what other people say before I make any concrete decisions, though.

Thank you all for the comments so far!
 
Substitute + Pinch Berry sets really aren't worth it anymore in today's metagame, mainly because of all of the residual damage and priority running around. For example, this Heracross easily loses to Scizor or Metagross's Bullet Punch, Infernape's Mach Punch, Empoleon's Aqua Jet, and Lucario's ExtremeSpeed. Furthermore, the prevalence of sandstorm basically shuts the purpose of this set down. The only Pokemon that can really pull off a SubBerry set is Empoleon, since he has resistances to practically every priority move and is immune to sandstorm. I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to pass.
The reason why I disagree with this is because they still beat priority when played correctly. I feel like this needs to be a consistency issue accross the board. Either we remove ALL Sub pinch sets or we remove none. Priority doesn't make the set unviable, especially considering that Stall Teams are absolutely manhandled by that set.

But the way it is supposed to play is that you Sub down to your speed Boost on a weakened pokemon and kill it keeping your sub up. Then Scizor comes in (weakened in the late game), breaks your Sub and you finish sweeping. In scenarios where Scizor is already gone, you can utilize Swords Dance more efficiently. As I said before Justinawe won Smogon Tour with that set so it is clearly "viable" if that is the issue. Not to mention most teams only carry 1 single priority move on the entire team. Occasionally you find two and any more is rarely seen.
 
The reason why I disagree with this is because they still beat priority when played correctly. I feel like this needs to be a consistency issue accross the board. Either we remove ALL Sub pinch sets or we remove none. Priority doesn't make the set unviable, especially considering that Stall Teams are absolutely manhandled by that set.

They are all removed (the OU ones), so this set won't be any exception.

But the way it is supposed to play is that you Sub down to your speed Boost on a weakened pokemon and kill it keeping your sub up. Then Scizor comes in (weakened in the late game), breaks your Sub and you finish sweeping. In scenarios where Scizor is already gone, you can utilize Swords Dance more efficiently. As I said before Justinawe won Smogon Tour with that set so it is clearly "viable" if that is the issue. Not to mention most teams only carry 1 single priority move on the entire team. Occasionally you find two and any more is rarely seen.
This is not always possible. If Heracross is faster than the weakened Pokemon, you can't Substitute down all the way and then keep your Substitute up as you kill it. See:

Heracross used Substitute.
Swampert used Surf.
Substitute breaks.

Heracross used Substitute.
Salac Berry activated.
Swampert used Surf.
Substitute breaks.

Heracross used Close Combat.
Swampert fainted.

Also, this Heracross doesn't manhandle stall teams whatsoever. Skarmory, Gyarados, and Hippowdon all exist to destroy this set easily. Don't forget about Toxic Spikes and phazers. Just because a user won a tour with it, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a set worthy of an analysis in my opinion. In the case of a set like this, the element of surprise plays a big role. This set just needs way too much support to be effective.
 
This is not always possible. If Heracross is faster than the weakened Pokemon, you can't Substitute down all the way and then keep your Substitute up as you kill it. See:

Heracross used Substitute.
Swampert used Surf.
Substitute breaks.

Heracross used Substitute.
Salac Berry activated.
Swampert used Surf.
Substitute breaks.

Heracross used Close Combat.
Swampert fainted.

Also, this Heracross doesn't manhandle stall teams whatsoever. Skarmory, Gyarados, and Hippowdon all exist to destroy this set easily. Don't forget about Toxic Spikes and phazers. Just because a user won a tour with it, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a set worthy of an analysis in my opinion. In the case of a set like this, the element of surprise plays a big role. This set just needs way too much support to be effective.

The idea in this kind of case is to not try and Sub down against already slower Pokemon, but to kill it in order to keep your Sub for when your opponent switches in Scizor or whatever. That, or you could run a Magnezone and be done with Scizor. Sets beaten by priority can be supported.

Skarmory is risking an OHKO unless fully physically defensive, and Swarm ensures Hippowdon dies to Megahorn. Heracross is not a Pokemon easily handled by stall.

All that being said, Heracross has better sets. Mainly, CB.

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I've played a ton of Heracross lately and here are my thoughts:

1. CB and CS Hera are completely different and deserve different sets and comments. Pursuit is mandatory on CB Heracross since one of its biggest draws is beating Rotom while eating a Will-o-wisp, but on CS it's nearly useless.

2. CB Heracross honestly doesn't care about Skarmory, it clean 2HKOs...

3. Is Life Orb SD worth it if Flame Orb exists?
 
A +2 Megahorn does 80% minimum to Swampert so why you are Subbing in that example I haven no idea. The idea is to use Substitute against faster pokemon until you can activate your Salac Berry and the ideal scenario is that Swarm allows you to kill that said pokemon. Then priority breaks your Sub and you finish sweeping. In the case that priority has been eliminated (Scizor is the only priority on a vast amount of teams), you can than Swords Dance as your sub breaks to finish your sweep with the +2 / +1 boost and Swarm.

I'm not saying it is Heracross' best set at the moment, but it certainly needs to be on site, especially with Heracross' flat out rediculous power of Swarmed Megahorn (that set actually beats Gliscor easily if it comes in on Swords Dance) and the blantant brokenness of Close Combat.

Also, we need to stop sucking Gliscor's dick as a Heracross counter. Unless Gliscor specifically packs Aerial Ace (which none do), any non-Choice Heracross will overcome it. Bulk Up Gliscor has +1 / +1 when Gliscor comes in. Gliscor can't touch it at all, and Roost eliminates the fighting / bug resistance.. so its not beating Heracross. Swords Dance Cross is the same scenario.
 
K, I have two things. I don't like Swords Dance Heracross in OU at all since Heracross gets ass raped by CB Scizor's Bullet Punch which is just everywhere.
I used to think the same thing until I used the one with a status orb (really, why would you use LO over Lucario), and the thing is, you get to use it exactly like CB (same power + the ability to switch moves) until you properly gage your opponents team. Once you discover it's stall or any other kind of slower, bulkier playstyle, SD up and either sweep or insta-break a couple of walls.

On the subject of SD, is there any reason Toxic Orb isn't on the SD set? It takes four turns for Toxic Orb to deal more overall damage than Flame Orb and it isn't nearly as punishing when you're getting in and getting out (6% for every one-turn encounter, 18% for two, as opposed to 12-24%). Flame Orb cuts down Hera's longevity pretty badly for the same power and it's really gonna add up with SR damage. I propose it be replaced in favor of Toxic Orb.
 
The reason why I disagree with this is because they still beat priority when played correctly. I feel like this needs to be a consistency issue accross the board. Either we remove ALL Sub pinch sets or we remove none. Priority doesn't make the set unviable, especially considering that Stall Teams are absolutely manhandled by that set.
I'm glad we agree that removing all Sub pinch berry sets in OU is the best course of action. You might be happy to hear that we have already done this, so there's no reason to concern yourself with it anymore.

Honestly, Sub Salac on a Pokemon who takes all weather damage (with Acid Rain soon to come in SB2), Toxic Spikes damage, has no priority resistances, and is outsped by the common Scarf base 100's even after the Salac? That's just a terrible idea. Oh yeah? It beats stall? The Flame Orb Swords Dance set does a helluva better job beating stall than Sub Salac, so what on earth is the point of using it? For the odd chance that you face a team without priority, a faster Scarfer, no weather, or Toxic Spikes? The set is terrible in this metagame. Period.
 
Life Orb has the benefit of not taking a turn to activate (and also not dealing damage on turns spent setting up), but Toxic Orb and Flame Orb need to both be options. Toxic Orb is the superior hit-and-run option, but Flame Orb is the superior sweeping option.

EDIT: The only SubPinch set not going away is SubPetaya Empoleon, but it's immune to Sandstorm AND it takes about dick% damage from Bullet Punch and Extremespeed... so yeah.

Anyway, SubSalac for something that resists pretty much 0 priority and takes weather damage is terrible, so yeah no.

EDIT BECAUSE RL IS RIGHT FOR ONCE: Yeah, Gliscor gets absolutely demolished by Heracross. It's facing a 3HKO from CC/Megahorn after a Flame Orb or Choice Band, and can't Roost off the damage because then it's taking 75% minimum. Gliscor can ONLY counter Heracross if it's carrying Aerial Ace or facing a Choice Scarf set. It's worthless against all other sets.
 
EDIT: Screw it.

Suggestion: For Swords Dance, Leftovers should be mentioned in AC because Heracross makes good use of it actually, especially if you do switch him in on Rotom Will-O-Wisps and whatnot.
 
Sorry, but I'm not going to add in the SubSalac set. I will make a mention of it in the Optional Changes section, though. I have included Leftovers as a possible alternative item for the Swords Dance set, thanks for that. Gliscor is also no longer mentioned as a solid counter to all Heracross sets.

Is everything else with this analysis okay? I don't really think I need to split up the Choice sets because one revenge-kills and one hits hard, which can be easily mentioned in the comments. Also, some of the moves in the last slot tag along with the appropriate Choice item, which I can mention too.

Can I get some thoughts from QC members now? That would be fantastic. Thanks a lot everyone.
 
They need to be split. This is absolutely vital. Choice Scarf and Choice Band play completely differently, and have completely different counters. They also have different options for the last moveslot. Choice Band almost needs Pursuit, since one of its biggest draws is eating Rotom-A WoW and guaranteeing its death, then coming back after Guts and annihilating everything ever. Scarf, on the other hand, needs Toxic, because it destroys all common switchins other than Gengar. It also profits less from Sleep Talk, so it doesn't need it as much.

CB also benefits from using Adamant/bulkier spreads, since it needs to bust straight through stuff.
 
Alright, I've played with Heracross a few times lately, and this is what I have to say:

- Choice Band and Choice Scarf have to be separately.
- The sets Bulk Up and Bulk Up (Rest + Sleep Talk) have to remain separately.
- Substitute + Berry -- no way.

So, with these changes being applied, I'll stamp this update, Fuzznip.

P.S: Could other QCers check this entire update please?
 
Okay. I split up the Bug of Choice set into separate Choice Scarf and Choice Band sets. Looking forward to the stamps. Thanks.
 
I don't feel comfortable with this...

Choice Scarf said:
  • Pokemon that attract burn or poison status, such as Metagross and Swampert, make effective teammates, as Heracross can switch into those ailments and receive a Guts boost.
  • Enjoys the absence of Skarmory and Gliscor, two walls that Heracross generally hates. Heatran and Swampert come to mind.
  • Entry hazard support is always useful to assure certain OHKOs/2HKOs.

If I'm not mistaken, Choice Band Heracross does have much the same support as Choice Scarf Heracross. If I need to add anything else please mention them, because if you are "not comfortable" with what I have, tell me how to fix it.
 
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