Milotic (OU Bulky Water)

[Overview]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Milotic may have appeared to have fallen from grace in the transition from ADV, but it still fills a rare and valuable niche in the OU metagame as the only bulky Water with access to an instant recovery move. In fact, the ability to regain a consistent 50% of its health through just one moveslot, combined with its pure Water typing, is perhaps the only reason to use it in OU. Still, Milotic has quite a bit going for it in the higher levels of play, with Special Attack on par with Starmie and a massive Special Defense stat. In particular, its unique ability, Marvel Scale lets it absorb status, giving it the potential to have better physical walling abilities than Skarmory. Despite its UU status, Milotic is still a reliable defensive Pokemon and a great choice for teams that need a bulky Water with extra coverage. </p>

[SET]
name: OU Bulky Water
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam/Haze
move 3: Hidden Power Electric
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Special Attack

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Recover lets Milotic stand out from its bulky Water brethren, precisely because it frees up an extra moveslot. Rather than lose two spots for Rest and Sleep Talk or Wish and Protect, Milotic can focus on the almost perfect neutral coverage provided by Water-, Ice-, and Electric-type attacks or disruption in the form of Haze.</p>

<p>Milotic's Water typing allows it to switch into many different types of moves, while Marvel Scale lets it absorb Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, and the first layer of Toxic Spikes without any hassle. In the past, Milotic relied on the fairly inaccurate Hypnosis, leaving it vulnerable to Taunt. However, with several offensive options at its disposal Milotic can handle many users of Taunt, especially Gyarados. </p>

<p>Milotic is not by any means invincible, but can still act as a pivot against the likes of Dragonite, Gliscor, Heatran, and Gyarados, and generally takes unboosted neutral and resisted hits with ease. Even stat-uppers like Scizor and Lucario, who think they can set up on you with relative impunity, will not enjoy taking a hit off 236 Special Attack, and will find themselves in a stalemate if Haze is in Milotic's repertoire. </p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>In previous metagames, Milotic tried to run a large number of Special Attack EVs to eliminate Garchomp and attempted to attain a Leftovers number. But with that monstrosity gone, Milotic can instead focus its stats on HP and Defense. The result is an impressive mixed wall with 394 HP / 282 Defense / 286 Special Defense. In UU, Milotic runs 8 Speed EVs to outrun max speed base 50 Pokemon such as Aggron, but since none of these have quite made it into OU, Milotic can again pour everything into its defenses.</p>

<p>Particularly, Milotic can work either in bulky offense with its wonderful coverage or stall, as having both Haze and Recover lets it effectively wall any stat-uppers that don't utilize Electric or Grass moves. Do not make the mistake of just slapping Milotic into a team space Vaporeon would fit better. If you need a wall that can keep itself alive longer as opposed to a team player, then Milotic is the bulky Water for you.</p>

[Team Options]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Milotic is best used with Pokemon who both complement its resistances and back it up in the coverage department. Pokemon who shrug off Electric- and Grass-type moves are the most important; the many Grass-types of OU that plague Milotic can ironically make decent partners. Pokemon who are terrified of being burned can also find a teammate in Milotic, who takes advantage of status with Marvel Scale. Since Milotic was graced with Recover, its teammates should be similar to it: powerful and flexible, with the ability to be self-sufficient.</p>

<p>In terms of defensively-oriented teammates, Roserade makes a good lead for teams utilizing Milotic, although it shouldn't necessarily faint early in the game. It has decent Special Defense and can make Milotic's life easier as it lays down Toxic Spikes and absorbs the opponent's own. Coverage-wise, Leaf Storm and Hidden Power Fire have perfect synergy with Surf, Hidden Power Electric, and Ice Beam. Also, a defensive core of Heatran and Celebi, in tandem with Milotic, makes a combination that resists just about everything as each covers the other's weaknesses perfectly.</p>

<p>Offensively, Milotic enjoys teammates that can hit hard physically , who certainly appreciate having Milotic take an Ice Beam for them. Just about any Dragonite variant shines with Milotic. Cleric Dragon Dance Dragonite gets special mention though, making a good offensive and defensive partner as it handles Grass moves with ease and Electric moves decently, while Milotic can take the Ice moves aimed at it. Heal Bell allows it to eliminate the status Milotic doesn't enjoy, mainly Toxic and sleep. Milotic also does decently against the various Steel-types who won't mind STAB Dragon Claw, but will mind STAB Surf, namely Heatran. Despite acting as one of Milotic's best counters, Breloom can handle both of Milotic'sweaknesses and switches into Toxic just fine. Milotic stops the threatening Dragonite, Heatran, and Gyarados, while Breloom can dish out serious damage toPokemon who would normally try to stall Milotic to death, like Blissey. Gliscor is an excellent user of Stealth Rock on teams with Milotic. Just about any of its sets work well because of Milotic's resistances to its weaknesses and Gliscor's its useful support and offensive movepool.</p>

<p>Steel-types like Scizor, Forretress, and Bronzong enjoy Milotic taking Fire and Water hits for them; many of them also dominate physically, allowing them to eliminate Milotic's enemy special walls. Forretress, in particular, can Rapid Spin away entry hazards that dent Milotic’s staying power, set up those that help guarantee it a smoother. Earthquake will most certainly be a requirement to stop Magnezone, who may try to rain on your parade, although one must be wary of Magnet Rise variants.</p>

[Optional Changes]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>A Calm nature with an EV spread of 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD is also highly recommended because it takes full advantage of Milotic's special bulk, while still leaving it hardy enough for the physical attackers and more than tough enough for mixed attackers. This spread also makes Milotic ideal for taking on its fellow bulky Waters. </p>

<p>60% accuracy has made Hypnosis all but obsolete, but if your team is desperate for a sleep-inducer that can take a hit, it's not total suicide. Mirror Coat can score a surprise KO on an opposing special sweeper, but it requires both prediction and heavy investment in Special Defense if Milotic is hoping to survive Grass- and Electric-type assaults. Hidden Power Grass is an option, too, but with more prevalent Flying-types in the tier, and Swampert being taken care of with Surf, it’s situational at best. </p>

<p>Without a stat-boosting move, Milotic just can't keep up with the rest of the Sleep Talkers in OU, but if you want to take full advantage of Marvel Scale, try a moveset of Surf, Rest, Sleep Talk, and Recover. Despite only being able to attack 33% of the time, it will still be able to keep its health up with increased Defense from Marvel Scale while sleeping. </p>


[Counters]
<h4>OU</h4>
<p>Milotic's OU counters are pretty straightforward as it falls to the STAB moves of Zapdos, Celebi, Jolteon, Shaymin, the Rotom appliances, and Breloom, although Ice Beam will punish a good number of these Pokemon. Other bulky Waters will most certainly need Hidden Power Electric and Toxic to deal with Milotic, Tentacruel standing out as a decent counter due to its high Special Defense. Cresselia with Charge Beam and Blissey can also outstall Milotic. Grass Knot acts as the bane to this heavy bulky water's existence. Keep in mind that Milotic's above average defenses by no means make it invincible </p>

<p>Toxic and the second layer of Toxic Spikes ruin Milotic's staying power, although for the first couple turns it will be somewhat harder to take down because of Marvel Scale. Milotic will also be heavily disrupted if Tricked a Choice item, which prevents it from healing or freely enjoying its coverage. Still, one must be wary of swapping Choice Specs onto it as Milotic will most likely benefit from the Special Attack boost.</p>

<p>Milotic without Haze will be susceptible to stat-boosting attackers like Snorlax, Scizor, Lucario, and Calm Mind Suicune, while Milotic without Ice Beam will quickly fall prey to Dragon-types and Grass-types. It is of interest to note that the combination of Water, Ice, and Electric is only resisted by Lanturn and Shedinja, although neither of these are particularly common in OU.</p>
 
Nice set.
I would list HP grass as a option over hidden power electric, otherwise you are walled (Except for toxic) by Swampert.
You should also add Infernape to the list of teamamtes, as well as the fact that Milotic cause's a lot of switch's, so SR, Spikes, or Toxic Spikes would all be very much appreciated.
 
Hi. Yes this gets supposedly better Recovery than Suicune and Vappy, but it really doesn't. Without Rest, Milotic becomes extremely vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, unlike Suicune. Suicune also has better Hp, much better Defense, access to pHazing moves, and the biggest factor, Calm Mind. Vaporeon on the other hand, is light, which means it takes much less damage from Grass Knot, but its biggest use is being a team healer with Wish. It also has higher SpA than Milotic, as well as access to pHazing moves. You can't forget about her massive HP stat either. Starmie on the other hand, has decent bulk, but its great speed is what makes it a top tier threat. It also has a great movepool, but most importantly, Rapid Spin. For those reasons stated, I feel like Milotic is outclassed by at least two Bulky OU Water-types.
 
I thought about Hidden Power Grass--Milotic isn't necessarily wallked by Swampert though because stab-ed Surfs will still be hurting a pokemon without instant recovery--unless we're talking about Cursepert, Mixpert has nothing on Milotic as uninvested Ice Beam and Earthquake are quite pitiful... the best Swampert can do is roar! And you'd be a fool to stay in on Grass Knots.

Lately, I've mostly seen offensive Suicune which doesn't get rest. Need I post a sleeptalk set here or are you just going to throw the calm mind card out there? Not all Suicune run Rest and not all Vaporeon run Heal Bell, so your toxic spikes point isn't a surefire reason to say no.

You say Milotic is outclassed by Vaporeon, Suicune, and Starmie, but I see it like this...

Milotic has recover over Vaporeon and Suicune.
Milotic has the same special attack as Starmie.
Milotic has better defenses than Starmie.
Milotic has marvel scale over all three.

That was exactly what I knew people were going to say... read the whole thing!
 
I think you should put Hidden Power Electric over Ice Beam. Then in the third slot, slash Ice Beam with Haze. With Haze, Milotic can prevent things like Kingdra, Suicune, CursePert, Snorlax, etc. from boosting their stats. While Vaporeon can also Haze, it would have to drop Protect, which means it wouldn't be able to reliably Recover its HP, or drop Hidden Power Electric. Then it wouldn't be able to counter Gyarados.
 
I was thinking of putting multiple slashes for the middle two with Ice Beam, HP Electric, Hypnosis, Toxic, and Haze... pick two and have fun, essentially.

Oh, and I just realized Vaporeon doesn't get Light Screen or Mirror Coat, if that at all matters. Suicune only gets mirror coat, but generally it has better things to do.

Admit it, this is a teensy bit better than anything proposed involving Flame Orb!
 
About the recovery thing: Wish + Protect act's as a Recover + more lefties healing, and it can pass wish to its teammates. And Mirror Coat isn't exactly viable on Milotic. Yes Milotic has the same SpA stat as Starmie, but on your set you don't invest anything into SpA, and you're slow so that point didn't make much sense. Starmie commonly uses Max Speed and SpA with Life Orb to ramp up its attack. Ya Milotic has better Defenses than Starmie, but not better than Suicune and (arguably Vaporeon because of its massive HP). So the only real advantage I see to using it over the bulky waters of OU is Marvel Scale, but that's definitely a stretch. Water Absorb gives free switch-ins, Natural Cure let's you absorb status (like Toxic) without staying statused, and Pressure is great for CroCune stalling things out.
 
About the recovery thing: Wish + Protect act's as a Recover + more lefties healing, and it can pass wish to its teammates. And Mirror Coat isn't exactly viable on Milotic. Yes Milotic has the same SpA stat as Starmie, but on your set you don't invest anything into SpA, and you're slow so that point didn't make much sense. Starmie commonly uses Max Speed and SpA with Life Orb to ramp up its attack. Ya Milotic has better Defenses than Starmie, but not better than Suicune and (arguably Vaporeon because of its massive HP). So the only real advantage I see to using it over the bulky waters of OU is Marvel Scale, but that's definitely a stretch. Water Absorb gives free switch-ins, Natural Cure let's you absorb status (like Toxic) without staying statused, and Pressure is great for CroCune stalling things out.
If you're not a fan of the set, then kindly post how I might make it better, but either way, I feel that Milotic can be used just fine in OU. Recover is good because it doesn't take up two move slots for one thing--as I said, you don't need to invest anything in special attack because it OHKOs Salamence and 2HKOS Gyarados just fine. Suicune can't switch into status unless it has rest, Starmie is pursuit bait, and true Water Absorb is a nice touch in Vaporeon, but Milotic will take negligible damage from any unboosted water attack and doesn't have to take two turns to heal itself. It's also not totally defenseless if its taunted and doesn't mind having a choice specs or scarf tricked onto it unless you just used recover.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to tell you, I feel like you're treating Starmie, Vaporeon, and Suicune as one entity that outclasses Milotic--I think all four have their merits.
 
wooo!!! yea thats right, milotic kicks ass! and your right about the set in my opinion, though the hypnosis almost never hits when i try useing it with my shiny milotic -_-. toxic is extremilliy good for it (just get blssey out of the way since it has aromatherapy)
edit: it can be used for ou, but it still has alot of counters in this metagame.
 
I'm not saying make it better. I'm saying it's outclassed.
but that's like saying I basically wasted all those hours of playtesting. Everything gets outclassed by something else plain and simple. And imo, Milotic isn't as outclassed as you're making it sound... it fits a specific niche!

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65566
There are plenty of stuff on this list that get outclassed by their OU counterparts.

You can keep telling me it's outclassed and it's in UU, but I'm going to need a little more help than that, and I do plan on making this work.
 
Uh no. Not everything gets outclassed by something. What does Mence get outclassed by? Suicune? Latias? Scizor? Lucario? <insert top OU threat here>

Edit: Yes but all of those UU/NU Pokemon have a specific niche to fill in OU. For example, Claydol has levitate, resists EdgeQuake, and can Rapid Spin AND set up stealth Rocks. Slowbro is like... a 100 % Machamp counter. Weezing makes a great fighting type check. Walrein stalls people to death. Uxie has amazing bulk and makes for a great dual screener/lead. Dugtrio traps shit. They all have their own niches, and Milotic just doesn't perform better than Suicune or Vaporeon, or have a specific niche over them (Marvel Scale doesn't really give Milotic a spot over either of them...)
 
So, here's a quick list of my concerns...

A. Is Hypnosis even worth mentioning--or should I should put Haze in its place?
B. Should Ice Beam or Hidden Power Electric be the default second attack?
C. Should I post specially defensive Milotic, which I've used quite successfully or Rest-Talk Milotic which takes advantage of its ability quite nicely?
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Milotic has a lot of issues actually competing in OU. Vaporeon almost directly outclasses it. Suicune has better physical bulk and the ability to stat up with CM. Swampert has a better defensive typing and the ability to attack physically with cool Ground STAB. All 3 of these have Roar to shuffle and prevent setup. Tentacruel can spin, has a cool secondary typing, and can lay TSpikes. Starmie has better speed, and can actually attempt a sweep.

Hell, delving into UU, there are things there that outclass it in OU. Slowbro and Slowking stand out as the only "hard counters" to Machamp in the entire metagame, and they can both insta-recover, as well as spreading paralysis. Slowbro can even survive a +1 Mence Outrage, something that most Pokemon are hard-pressed to do.

I'm not seeing why Milotic needs an OU analysis here when it's not BL yet, and it's just so hardcore outclassed.
 
Milotic is not completely outclassed in my humble opinion for a few reasons:

RECOVER. There flat out is no replacement for it. Vaporeon Wish + Protect is not equivalent since Milotic get's an extra moveslot now!

Milotic actually has comparable defenses Vaporeon on both sides of the spectrum so neither is "better" than the other. The only advantage Vaporeon has really is that it can provide Wish support for the team. But instant recovery can be a preference.

Marvel Scale is a small plus, being able to switch into the FIRST layer of T-Spikes actually benefits Milotic. T-Waves can be sort of annoying, but you can switch into them if you have no other options.

Suicune's niche I think is a little different than Milotic's. Suicune's lack of recovery force you to go all out offensive, or be limited to 1 attack + CM or Roar + Restalk. Granted these are effective, it just does a slightly different job.

Swampert has just pure different typing and no recovery. If you want to argue about Swampert, compare Swampert and Quagsire (Quag actually makes a good comparision and isn't "outclassed")

Starmie - Starmie and LO Milotic actually can be compared. Starmie is ALOT frailer than a similar build with Milotic. But its also a lot faster. Take your pick. Milotic does the LO Tank thing quite well in OU (definately tried it, I made the EV spread for it!), but no one will argue that it is better than LO Starmie at sweeping because LO Starmie is clearly better. Comes down to tank vs. Sweeper kinda deal.

So do I think Milotic is outclassed? Not really. It just doesnt stick out an any one thing compared to other waters. I do think the set needs to be cleaned up a bit, but the reason why it shouldn't be added is because this set is IDENTICAL to it's UU set already listed. It should probably just say, "with HP Electric, this set can be used in OU as one of the best Heatran counters in the game, and a solid Gyarados check. However, its has no real specific niche that differentiates itself from other Water Pokemon in that tier."
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Honestly, I'm in agreement with RL here. Give it a short mention as to why it would ever be used in OU, but the fact that it doesn't do anything exceptionally well in comparison to other Water-types in OU (or UU!) makes it a tough choice.

In short: No OU set, but a mention in AC about the merits of using it in OU with HP Electric.
 

Farmer

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I'm in support of the set having used Milotic in OU many times before I know it more then capable. RaikouLover already explained all the reasons why its simply not outclassed.I wouldnt be in favor of this ev spread in OU though as it has you lose to pokemon such as infernape as well as some others.
 

Legacy Raider

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Yeah Suicune Vaporeon Swampert and other bulky Waters can do some things that Milotic can't, but I still think it is not just viable but quite actually quite effective in OU for the simple reason it can run a set that includes instant recovery and Surf+BoltBeam. Unlike Vaporeon, it doesn't need to choose whether it stops Gyarados or Salamence from setting up on it, since it doesn't need to dedicate 2 moveslots to Wish + Protect. Starmie isn't nearly as bulky, and comes with the nasty U-turn and Pursuit weakness. Milotic, like Suicune, can't check NP Infernape because of its Grass Knot vulnerability, but there are few Pokemon that deter both common Dragon Dancers better than Milotic. Also worth noting that Milotic is the most Specially Bulky out of all the Waters, taking only 55.6-65.5% from MixMence's Draco Meteor, and with just this 252/252 Bold spread, not dying to Metal Sound Heatran's HP Grass.
 
Thank you, I think I need a little bit of help with the ev spread, although I'm pretty sure max defense and hp is good for this meta, as Milotic isn't a sweeper so it need not outspeed anything... I apologize if I at all wasted your time/if the set was identical to the UU one, I just felt that it was important to note that it's capable in OU. While it is 2koed by physicalmence, it thoroughly enjoys playing with mixmence, I think.

Hidden Power Grass is a much poorer choice in OU and the 8 speed evs are unnecessary in the tier as well--that's the only reason I typed this up--silly of me. Haha, Legacy Raider's comment makes me think the set should be called Dragon-Slayer or Dance-Slayer.

Anyway, can someone help me with a spread? As I have written, the classic 148 Hp for Max leftovers recovery, 252 max defense, and 108 Special Attack for Garchomp is no longer viable... and the 8 speed evs from the UU set are wasted in OU.
 
I have seen some very good players use Milotic in OU, and even though I would probably never use it myself, I don't think Milotic is bad enough to flat out reject. I would like a better spread than this, though. If anyone has a better spread they use, please post it.
 
Well, Milotic's base Special Defense allows it to not need any investment. Other than Maximizing HP I don't know where else you would need it other than defense. A little speed could be used to outspeed RestTalk Rotom since you can actually probably beat that once it sleeps but I don't really see where else the EVs would go unless you slap on an orb and go offensive.

For shits and giggles I saw someone use a Surf / Recover / Rest / Sleep Talk Milotic with Toxic Spikes and it was impossible to kill, lol.
 

FlareBlitz

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Not really farmiliar with OU, but in UU during the Moltres-heavy era Milotic ran around with 252/200/56 Calm. Not sure how much better this would be, but some reference calcs: it can now survive Specs Jolt's Thunderbolt 95% of the time, and takes a maximum of 46% from MixMence Draco Meteor. It's now never 2hko'd by Modest LO Tran's HP Grass (Bold spread was around 70% of the time), and is only sometimes 2hko'd by Specs HP Grass (Bold spread was all the time), and even then only if sand is up. It now takes 93% min from +1 DDMence Outrage, however, as opposed to 83% with the Bold spread, and is now OHKO'd by Adamant CB Tyranitar's Crunch around 20% of the time.
 
Yeah that sound's like a neat spread. Especially when you can get Milotic inflicted with status if you find your physical defense lacking. Keep in mind Milotic is also a good user of Light Screen, which helps a ton of shit but lessens the need for SpDef investment.
 
I have one for the Life Orb tank.

Milotic @ Life Orb
Nature: Modest
EVs: 168 HP / 64 Def / 88 SpA / 188 Spe
IVs: 30 SpA
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Hidden Power [Electric]
-Recover
The 88 EVs invested in Special Attack allow to 2HKO the standard Celebi, standard Physically Bulky Zapdos, standard MixPert, Careful natured Special Defensive Skarmory, and the standard defensive sets for all Rotom forms without Stealth Rock with Life Orb. The 188 EVs invested in speed allows Milotic to hit 245, outspeeding Celebi and all non-Choice Scarfed Tyranitar.

The HP and Defense EVs allow Milotic to obtain maximum possible bulk with the leftover EVs.

Tell me what you guys think, it hasn't been tested unfortunately.

*Hydro Pump is necessary. It attains the 2HKOs on Rotom, all Skarmory, and Swampert*
 
I think Haze is worth a mention on Milotic, as it can let you be an effective check to things like CroCune, CurseLax, CurseTar, CursePert, etc.

IMO, the nerf to Hypnosis' accuracy from Platinum really hurt Milotic's chances in OU, as before it had something that distinguished it as a bulky water, but with Hypnosis as unreliable as it is, not anymore.
 

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