Gyarados (Substitute + Thunder Wave)

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Towelie

EDIT: Can a mod please change the name to Substitute + Thunder Wave? I accidentally forgot to put Substitute in the title.

Hey guys. I've been using this set for about a month, and so has opgjy i believe, but rey spilled the beans about it so I'm going to post it for C & C.

[SET]
name: Substitute + Thunder Wave
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Thunder Wave
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 216 HP / 80 Atk / 212 Def

Why should this set be on-site?

-No similar gyarados set.
-paralysis support is great for heavy, slow-hitters.
-is annoying as fuck
-still counters lucario, special mixape, explosionless heatran, etc.
-not outclassed by sub t wave jirachi because of different typing, intimidate, and waterfall is a better coverage move than iron head.
-if it gets a sub up, its not goin down for awhile.
-t wave + waterfalls flinch rate gives things a 55 % chance of attacking (i think sorry if i calced that wrong.)
here's a scenario:

-gyarados comes in on something, scares it out, subs on the switch. thunder waves the rotom. switches out. when it forces a switch later in the game, you sub and 2hko said rotom. thats just one specific scenario; this is a common scenario with many different mons that gyara gets a free sub on.
if a slow defensive pokemon with roar/ww comes out, you roar because you're faster and stay behind your sub.

evs:

-216 hp gives you 5 switch-ins to sr, less ss damage, etc.
-80 atk always 2hkos scarf rotom after sr damage
-with no speed you're one point faster than max modest empoleon so you can t wave it before it agilitys.
-you can switch into kingdra as it dds and never be 2hkod by outrage. you can t wave, roar, sub, whatever floats youre boat.
-dd tyranitar with no boosts and no intimidate NEVER kos this without rocks (albeit if it rolls max damage, ss finishes gyara off)(wait i think. what comes first, ss or lefties?)
-scarf ttars crunch after intimidate does 20.3% - 24.2% so you can switch in, sub, then do as you please.
-breloom does 21.8% - 25.7% with a -1 seed bomb so you can usually get a sub on it while waterfall does 25.4% - 29.9%, just enough to break its subs if it rolls min damage.
-+0 standard dnite outrage does 43.1% - 50.9% so you can switch in on the dd, t wave it, then stall it as it outrages. + 0 dragon claw from standard d nite on the other hand does 28.8% - 34.3% so you can t wave then roar it.
-after 2 sr switch-ins you always 2hko scarfgon
-lead champ does 19.9% - 23.6% with dpunch so non stone edge machamps get subbed on.

teammates:
-slow shit that likes para support (machamp, mixed dragonite, etc.)
-something to take electric attacks.
-trick support is nice because gyara can set up on shit locked into weak physical attacks.
-t spikes are good for stalling things out but unfortunately interferes with t wave.
-jolteon can take electric attacks and even recover health.
-spikes work great with this.
-cm wish rachi is amazing. they have excellent synergy, jirachi likes outspeeding shit, and this gyara LOVES wish support.

counters:
-if its not behind a sub, jolteon can switch into t wave and force it out.
-rest talk rotom beats this 1 on 1 but it gets roared out.
-crocune beats this one on one but gets roared out if not last poke.
-starmie has natural cure and recovery and doesn't take much at all from waterfall.
-defensive celebi
-skarm but it gets outsped and roared out.
-can pp stall if necessary because roar and t wave both have good pp.
-flygon can switch in on t wave, but if gyaras behind a sub it 2hkos flygon with waterfall after 2 rocks switch-ins.

Sorry if that was to long of a skeleton. I just wanted to prove that this is a damn good set. I can get logs if QC doesn't think this set is viable enough.
 
-t wave + waterfalls flinch rate gives things a 55 % chance of attacking (i think sorry if i calced that wrong.)
Click to expand...

As I posted in the other thread, it's 60%.

Also, SS does hit before lefties.

Why relaxed? Surely Impish would be better. When both pokemon use a phazing move, the faster pokemon phazes the slower pokemon. Unless you are using a special attack, therefore, Impish is better. A small number of speed EVs might also be considered, for instance to outrun 0 speed Suicune, for similar reasons.
 
I have a almost identical set in my QC thread, only difference being EVs and taunt is slashed on mine.
I only added it about 2 hours before you posted this so it's understandable you didn't see this.
 
Despotar said:
I have a almost identical set in my QC thread, only difference being EVs and taunt is slashed on mine.
I only added it about 2 hours before you posted this so it's understandable you didn't see this.
Click to expand...

No. This set is pretty different in use, and in my eyes, better than the one you posted. It plays pretty differently, and if one set should be analyzed, its this one, not the one you posted.
 
Another great partner for this set is Sub+T-Wave Jirachi, who also spreads paralysis, enjoys spamming Iron Head for flinch hax, and in general has great synergy with Gyarados. Also, he can paralyze Ground types with Body Slam.
 
I just tried using this over slowbro as a bulky water wall.
One thing I noticed is that with no recovery, twave slowbro has it beat.
On the other hand, when people see a wall they bring out offensive, when people see gyarados they bring out a wall.
This is good because it gives you a quick advantage to set up.
He is vulnerable to toxic without a sub, which most walls carry around.
Therefore, I think that with a jolteon / ground type, and a pokemon with aromatherapy, this would work excellently.. Otherwise, slowbro beats it, in my opinion.
 
Ya Slowbro beats it but Slowbro is UU and extremely uncommon. And it gets Roared out so it doesn't exactly beat Gyara.
 
Yes, I agree that a cleric and/or a wish-passer is greatly appreciated by this set.
Also, note that Intimidate gets a lot of switches.
 
DjGopher said:
I just tried using this over slowbro as a bulky water wall.
One thing I noticed is that with no recovery, twave slowbro has it beat.
On the other hand, when people see a wall they bring out offensive, when people see gyarados they bring out a wall.
This is good because it gives you a quick advantage to set up.
He is vulnerable to toxic without a sub, which most walls carry around.
Therefore, I think that with a jolteon / ground type, and a pokemon with aromatherapy, this would work excellently.. Otherwise, slowbro beats it, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of things differentiating the two, though. For one thing, Slowbro has no means of PHazing his counters out. Slowbro also doesn't have Intimidate to weaken opposing physical threats. Flying typing, though giving a Stealth Rock weakness, also gives a valuable Ground immunity for Fire, Steel, and Rock type partners and an immunity to the Toxic Spikes that so plague Slowbro. Slowbro is also far too slow and specially offensive to enjoy the potential of flinch hax with Waterfall and Paralysis that Gyarados does. Slowbro in OU, from what I've seen, is typically used more as a physical wall/Machamp counter that can spread paralysis. This set is also defensive, but I feel that its purpose is mostly for paralysis support, potential flinch hax, Intimidate, scouting/PHazing, and switching into/threatening the omnipresent Ground types/attacks in OU.
 
Towelie said:
Ya Slowbro beats it but Slowbro is UU and extremely uncommon. And it gets Roared out so it doesn't exactly beat Gyara.
Click to expand...
I meant it beats it for a slot on the team :P
And that's just recovery wise.. With the right team, gyarados does fantastic.. but the 'right team' part is pretty important.
 
I tried this set also and between stealth rock and just his slow speed i found it hard getting up a sub. When i did get up a sub it worked decently.
 
You can mention Wish Jolteon on the "Partners" section. Nice set, I think you should use 20-24 Speed Evs to beat the standard Restalk Gyarados.
 
I'd get rid of the 80 Atk and just run 252/252. Scarf Rotom will take 2 rounds of SR generally, not to mention that Choice locked Thunderbolts and Shadow Balls are easy to play around.

Small note: I believe running speed EVs in one Gyara set to outspeed another Gyara set would be Speed Creep.
 
I´ve seen this set being used on the ladder a few times, but I have to say that I´m not entirely pleased with its performance. While you can argue that it can be pretty handy due to Gyarados´s type, you have to take into account that there will be several occasions in which you´ll be just utilizing T-wave; SR+Subs sucks a lot and setting up a Substitute for the sake of preventing status damages from being inflicted, y/o make it harder for your opponent to take you down, is not that attractive. In my opinion, the big difference between SubJirachi and this set that you have proposed, is that 1) Jirachi doesn´t mind getting Roared (unless there are Spikes spread over the field), specially while being under a Substitute, and 2) Jirachi is resistant to Stealth Rock, and is naturally fast which makes him an ideal support member for different situations.

I'm not flat out rejecting this set, but I´m not approving it either. I´ll test it out before saying my final word on this; I´d also like to see what the rest of the QC members think.
 
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
WarriorX sent out Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
DUDE RANCH sent out Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
WarriorX switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Smeargle used Counter.
But it failed!
---
Smeargle used Spore.
Suicune fell asleep!
Suicune is fast asleep!
---
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Suicune woke up!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
But it failed!
---
DUDE RANCH: go back to sleep bitch
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
But it failed!
---
Smeargle used Spore.
Suicune fell asleep!
Suicune is fast asleep!
---
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Suicune is fast asleep!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
Suicune used Rest.
But it failed!
---
Smeargle used U-turn.
Suicune lost 3% of its health.
DUDE RANCH switched in Magnezone (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Suicune woke up!
Suicune used Calm Mind.
Suicune's special attack was raised.
Suicune's special defence was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 3% of its health.
---
Suicune used Calm Mind.
Suicune's special attack was raised.
Suicune's special defence was raised.
Magnezone used Charge Beam.
It's super effective!
Suicune lost 23% of its health.
Magnezone's special attack was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Magnezone lost 67% of its health.
Magnezone used Charge Beam.
It's super effective!
Suicune lost 31% of its health.
Magnezone's special attack was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
Magnezone's leftovers restored its health a little!
Magnezone restored 6% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Magnezone lost 39% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Magnezone fainted.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
Smeargle used Spore.
Suicune fell asleep!
Suicune is fast asleep!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
Suicune used Surf.
Smeargle lost 100% of its health.
Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Rotom-w (lvl 100 Rotom-w).
Suicune woke up!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
But it failed!
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Rotom-w used Trick.
Rotom-w obtained Leftovers!
Suicune obtained Choice Scarf!
Suicune used Surf.
Rotom-w lost 78% of its health.
Rotom-w's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-w restored 6% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Rotom-w lost 28% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Rotom-w fainted.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Suicune's attack!
WarriorX switched in Rotom-c (lvl 100 Rotom-c).
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Rotom-c used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados's substitute faded!
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Rotom-c is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Rotom-c is paralysed! It can't move!
---
WarriorX switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Suicune was hurt by Spikes!
Suicune lost 25% of its health.
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Suicune used Surf.
A critical hit!
Swampert lost 55% of its health.
Swampert used Roar.
WarriorX switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Metagross was hurt by Spikes!
Metagross lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Metagross.
Metagross lost 6% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 27% of its health.
Swampert used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Metagross lost 53% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Explosion.
Swampert lost 30% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Swampert fainted.
WarriorX's Metagross fainted.
---
WarriorX switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
DUDE RANCH switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Scizor was hurt by Spikes!
Scizor lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
DUDE RANCH switched in Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
Smeargle lost 0% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Smeargle fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Scizor's attack!
WarriorX switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Heatran was hurt by Spikes!
Heatran lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Heatran used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados's substitute faded!
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Heatran is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 63% of its health.
WarriorX's Heatran fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
WarriorX switched in Rotom-c (lvl 100 Rotom-c).
Pointed stones dug into Rotom-c.
Rotom-c lost 12% of its health.
DUDE RANCH switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Rotom-c used Thunderbolt.
Tyranitar lost 30% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-c is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-c lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Fire Punch.
Rotom-c lost 36% of its health.
Rotom-c used Thunderbolt.
Tyranitar lost 31% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-c is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-c lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Crunch.
It's super effective!
Rotom-c lost 40% of its health.
WarriorX's Rotom-c fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
WarriorX switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Scizor was hurt by Spikes!
Scizor lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 39% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Tyranitar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Scizor's attack!
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
Gyarados lost 14% of its health.
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Scizor lost 26% of its health.
WarriorX's Scizor fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
WarriorX switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Blissey was hurt by Spikes!
Blissey lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Blissey is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Blissey used Ice Beam.
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados's substitute faded!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
Blissey lost 62% of its health.
WarriorX's Blissey fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
WarriorX switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Suicune was hurt by Spikes!
Suicune lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Suicune.
Suicune lost 12% of its health.
Suicune used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Gyarados lost 14% of its health.
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Suicune lost 9% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Suicune is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Suicune lost 5% of its health.
WarriorX's Suicune fainted.
DUDE RANCH wins!
WarriorX has left the room.



Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
udstra sent out Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
DUDE RANCH sent out Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
Smeargle used Spore.
Cresselia fell asleep!
Cresselia is fast asleep!
---
udstra switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---
Heatran used Flamethrower.
Smeargle lost 100% of its health.
Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---
Heatran used Flamethrower.
Smeargle lost 0% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Smeargle fainted.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Heatran's attack!
udstra switched in Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
udstra switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Raikou was hurt by Spikes!
Raikou lost 19% of its health.
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Raikou is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Raikou lost 46% of its health.
Raikou is paralysed! It can't move!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Raikou lost 35% of its health.
udstra's Raikou fainted.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
udstra has left the room.
DUDE RANCH wins!
 
Towelie said:
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
WarriorX sent out Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
DUDE RANCH sent out Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
WarriorX switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Smeargle used Counter.
But it failed!
---
Smeargle used Spore.
Suicune fell asleep!
Suicune is fast asleep!
---
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Suicune woke up!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
But it failed!
---
DUDE RANCH: go back to sleep bitch
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
But it failed!
---
Smeargle used Spore.
Suicune fell asleep!
Suicune is fast asleep!
---
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Suicune is fast asleep!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
Suicune used Rest.
But it failed!
---
Smeargle used U-turn.
Suicune lost 3% of its health.
DUDE RANCH switched in Magnezone (lvl 100 Magnezone).
Suicune woke up!
Suicune used Calm Mind.
Suicune's special attack was raised.
Suicune's special defence was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 3% of its health.
---
Suicune used Calm Mind.
Suicune's special attack was raised.
Suicune's special defence was raised.
Magnezone used Charge Beam.
It's super effective!
Suicune lost 23% of its health.
Magnezone's special attack was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Magnezone lost 67% of its health.
Magnezone used Charge Beam.
It's super effective!
Suicune lost 31% of its health.
Magnezone's special attack was raised.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
Magnezone's leftovers restored its health a little!
Magnezone restored 6% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Magnezone lost 39% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Magnezone fainted.
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
Smeargle used Spore.
Suicune fell asleep!
Suicune is fast asleep!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
Suicune used Surf.
Smeargle lost 100% of its health.
Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Rotom-w (lvl 100 Rotom-w).
Suicune woke up!
Suicune used Sleep Talk.
But it failed!
Suicune's leftovers restored its health a little!
Suicune restored 6% of its health.
---
Rotom-w used Trick.
Rotom-w obtained Leftovers!
Suicune obtained Choice Scarf!
Suicune used Surf.
Rotom-w lost 78% of its health.
Rotom-w's leftovers restored its health a little!
Rotom-w restored 6% of its health.
---
Suicune used Surf.
Rotom-w lost 28% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Rotom-w fainted.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Suicune's attack!
WarriorX switched in Rotom-c (lvl 100 Rotom-c).
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Rotom-c used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados's substitute faded!
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Rotom-c is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Swampert (lvl 100 Swampert ?).
Rotom-c is paralysed! It can't move!
---
WarriorX switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Suicune was hurt by Spikes!
Suicune lost 25% of its health.
Swampert used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
---
Suicune used Surf.
A critical hit!
Swampert lost 55% of its health.
Swampert used Roar.
WarriorX switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Metagross was hurt by Spikes!
Metagross lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Metagross.
Metagross lost 6% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Earthquake.
Swampert lost 27% of its health.
Swampert used Earthquake.
It's super effective!
Metagross lost 53% of its health.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Explosion.
Swampert lost 30% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Swampert fainted.
WarriorX's Metagross fainted.
---
WarriorX switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
DUDE RANCH switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
A sandstorm brewed!
Scizor was hurt by Spikes!
Scizor lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
DUDE RANCH switched in Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
Smeargle lost 0% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Smeargle fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Scizor's attack!
WarriorX switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Heatran was hurt by Spikes!
Heatran lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Heatran.
Heatran lost 12% of its health.
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Heatran used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados's substitute faded!
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Heatran is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's super effective!
Heatran lost 63% of its health.
WarriorX's Heatran fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
WarriorX switched in Rotom-c (lvl 100 Rotom-c).
Pointed stones dug into Rotom-c.
Rotom-c lost 12% of its health.
DUDE RANCH switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Rotom-c used Thunderbolt.
Tyranitar lost 30% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-c is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-c lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Fire Punch.
Rotom-c lost 36% of its health.
Rotom-c used Thunderbolt.
Tyranitar lost 31% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Rotom-c is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Rotom-c lost 6% of its health.
---
Tyranitar used Crunch.
It's super effective!
Rotom-c lost 40% of its health.
WarriorX's Rotom-c fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
WarriorX switched in Scizor (lvl 100 Scizor ?).
Scizor was hurt by Spikes!
Scizor lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Scizor.
Scizor lost 12% of its health.
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
It's super effective!
Tyranitar lost 39% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Tyranitar fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Scizor's attack!
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
Gyarados lost 14% of its health.
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Scizor used Bullet Punch.
It's not very effective...
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Scizor lost 26% of its health.
WarriorX's Scizor fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
WarriorX switched in Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey ?).
Blissey was hurt by Spikes!
Blissey lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Blissey.
Blissey lost 12% of its health.
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Blissey is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Blissey used Ice Beam.
The substitute took damage for Gyarados!
Gyarados's substitute faded!
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Blissey is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Blissey lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
Blissey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Blissey restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
A critical hit!
Blissey lost 62% of its health.
WarriorX's Blissey fainted.
The sandstorm rages.
Gyarados is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Gyarados lost 6% of its health.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
WarriorX switched in Suicune (lvl 100 Suicune).
Suicune is exerting its pressure!
Suicune was hurt by Spikes!
Suicune lost 25% of its health.
Pointed stones dug into Suicune.
Suicune lost 12% of its health.
Suicune used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Gyarados lost 14% of its health.
Gyarados used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Suicune lost 9% of its health.
The sandstorm rages.
Suicune is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Suicune lost 5% of its health.
WarriorX's Suicune fainted.
DUDE RANCH wins!
WarriorX has left the room.



Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
udstra sent out Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
DUDE RANCH sent out Smeargle (lvl 100 Smeargle ?).
Smeargle used Spore.
Cresselia fell asleep!
Cresselia is fast asleep!
---
udstra switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---
Heatran used Flamethrower.
Smeargle lost 100% of its health.
Smeargle hung on using its Focus Sash!
Smeargle used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
---
Heatran used Flamethrower.
Smeargle lost 0% of its health.
DUDE RANCH's Smeargle fainted.
---
DUDE RANCH switched in Gyarados (lvl 100 Gyarados ?).
Gyarados's Intimidate cut Heatran's attack!
udstra switched in Cresselia (lvl 100 Cresselia ?).
Gyarados used Substitute.
Gyarados lost 25% of its health.
Gyarados made a substitute!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
udstra switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Raikou was hurt by Spikes!
Raikou lost 19% of its health.
Gyarados used Thunder Wave.
Raikou is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Raikou lost 46% of its health.
Raikou is paralysed! It can't move!
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
Gyarados used Waterfall.
Raikou lost 35% of its health.
udstra's Raikou fainted.
Gyarados's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gyarados restored 6% of its health.
---
udstra has left the room.
DUDE RANCH wins!
Click to expand...
Ragequit.
:P
I agree with taunt over roar, but that depends on the team.
I'd say leave it as
Substiture
T wave
Taunt/Roar
waterfall
and then explain differences.
 
edit: I started this post two hours ago so it doesn't take into account any of the recent posts... giving some context.

okay I haven't used this set (and probably wont in the near-ish future which is why I'm making this post before I test it) but I have three concerns:

1. substitute doesn't seem very effective.

of course, it has benefits on gyarados similar to the benefits it gives jirachi's similar set (scouting for switches, scouting for full para, evade status, etc). however, jirachi has a few qualities that negate the obvious downside to repeatedly using substitute (massive health loss).
- jirachi is resistant to stealth rock, which means when it uses substitute it is losing a lower proportion of its remaining health (~1/4 vs ~1/3 on the first switch into sr). yeah you can use spin support but it is never guaranteed especially against good players so at least a decent portion of your switches are going to be into hazards.
- jirachi is immune to the damaging effects of sandstorm, which means the health lost from a substitute actually has a chance to come back. on face value this means jirachi gets five subs rather than four but this is very important when combined with...
- jirachi flinches its opponent more often than not (it flinches three times as frequently as gyarados does), which means it has a much higher chance of recovering lost HP in a sandstorm.

all in all, while the benefits for both pokemon using substitute are the same, the downsides to using substitute on jirachi are minimized relative to the downsides this brings gyarados.

ok now going through the set comments for the reasons you stated substitute is useful:
- general sub on switch (breloom machamp tyranitar): why not just thunder wave on the switch seeing as ground pokemon don't like switching into gyarados (jolteon is the only reason and I don't think that one pokemon is worth having substitute)
- stall dragonite outrage: even if you come in at 100% hp, if sandstorm is up you only get one sub most of the time unless you want to kill yourself on the second sub. if sand isn't up you are still wasting the majority of your hp just to thunder wave a pokemon you can't hit for more than 20%

2. I think stone edge would be a good replacement for substitute as it's able to hit dragonite after you thunder wave it as well as others like zapdos.

3. the attack evs don't seem very necessary just to 2hko scarf rotom. this set isn't really supposed to be on a short fuse (theoretically it has much more survivability than an offensive set) and paralyzed scarf rotom is not ridiculously threatening anyways. adding the evs to perhaps sdef, to take draco meteor and fire blast, seems much more useful.
 
Having played against this.. its annoying to say the least. But unfortunately I that doesn't translate to effective. I think your better off using RestTalk Roar for your phazing needs unless I'm missing something (Waterfall is piss weak either way)?
 
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