Welcome to Hueco Mundo [OU RMT]

- INTRODUCTION -​

- TEAM BUILDING -​

I began with the ever-so-famous Fire / Water / Grass core that became popular during the early stages of suspect. I decided I wanted three hard-hitting and bulky pokemon, so that I could play similarly to how I play in UU. The three most obvious picks were introduced to the team: Scarf Heatran, 'Tinkerbell' Celebi and Offensive Suicune.
Then, I noticed I had at least one resistance to every type except Rock, I also needed a lead. So I asked myself which pokemon can lead and resist Rock? Metagross and Swampert were my answers. However, Metagross was immediately ruled out because it has an ugly backsprite, I'm not kidding. The only problem was, I don't like Swampert's standard lead set because it falls too quickly to repeated Fire Blasts from Heatran and it insta-loses to a surprise Hidden Power Grass. So I made my own Swampert set which focused on SpD just as much as Def and runs a bit of Spe to always beat opposing lead Swampert to the Roar. At this point the team looked like this:
Then, the last two members of the team were pretty quick to come to mind, these two guys are some of the best pokemon in the metagame right now: Rotom-A and Swords Dance Lucario. Lucario, aside from being the best sweeper in the game, had just lost one of his top checks. Rotom, in addition to blocking Rapid Spin, was added in order to aid Celebi in checking all the Fighting types that were bound to run rampant in a Salamence-less metagame. I decided to run Rotom-W, in order to hit the still-popular, Scarf Tyranitar and the now rising-in-popularity, Heatran, for super-effective damage with Hydro Pump.
I started noticing that, despite her tremendous natural bulk, Suicune can't repeatedly switch-in and take hits from the likes of Tyranitar and Heatran. She also dies pretty easily to +2 Grass Knots from Infernape, who was incredibly popular at the beginning of suspect because it had lost it's #1 check, Latias. I also disliked how slow Celebi was, so I decided to replace both of them for Vaporeon and Offensive Rest Shaymin. Vaporeon could provide Wish support to continually heal Heatran, who loves to come in on Grass moves, and Swampert, who comes in on Vaporeon's Electric Weakness. Shaymin is simply more offensively oriented that Celebi, with its borderline broken Seed Flare. At this point, the team looked like this:
Finally, after testing the team for about a week on the ladder, I decided to steer away from the Fire / Water / Grass core. This is because Shaymin, despite being very good at repeatedly switching into Water pokemon, firing off a Seed Flare and then resting off the damage, is still a Grass-type, and Grass-types are just plain bad. Seriously, too many things resist Grass (including Heatran, who ended his career in suspect as #1). Also, as much as I like Swampert, and as crappy as Grass-types are, they were everywhere! Swampert was also being forced out way too easily by the now-popular lead Machamp. I decided that, since I was replacing Swampert, I wanted to run the single most reliable lead I have ever ran, my own version of Colbur Berry Azelf. And instead of Shaymin, I would run a variation of the Standard Choice Scarf Flygon. Also, since I didn't want to run two Choice item users, I replaced Heatran's Scarf with Shuca Berry. At the time this RMT was first posted, the team looked like this:


After testing and making some changes, thanks to some suggestions by the people who rated the team, I decided to switch over to Rotom-H in order to lure ScarfTran and ScarfTar, much more consistently, and hit them with Thunder Wave so they would be unable to stop my Lucario sweep. I also decided to tweak Heatran a bit so that he could help me fight stall, and lure Gyarados, better. Here is the current team:

- OVERVIEW -​

- UNDER THE MICROSCOPE -​

• Item: Colbur Berry
• Ability: Levitate
• Nature: Jolly
• EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Spe
• Moveset:
  • Taunt
  • Stealth Rock
  • U-turn
  • Explosion

• Why this pokemon?
  
  As hard as it is to believe, I was using this Azelf long before the set got uploaded to the main site. I got the idea from the lead Mew set, which is common in Ubers. I asked myself: 'Which OU pokemon has the ability to learn those four moves and is fairly bulky when invested?' Azelf was the one and only choice. Anyway, Azelf gets things started off nicely by not losing to any common leads in todays metagame, at least the way I play him. 252 HP EVs, along with the Colbur Berry, are used to to guarantee that he will never be OHKO'd by any common move used by any common lead, thus, negating the need for a Focus Sash. The Jolly Nature and 216 Spe EVs guarantee he'll be faster than all 110 base speed pokemon and below. They also let him be slower than Starmie and other Azelf, so that he can take any hit from them, and U-turn out so a more appropriate matchup, severely hurting them in the process. This is especially important against other Azelf, since if they Taunt me on turn one, I can prevent them from setting up Stealth Rock for the rest the game, which can lead to huge advantage. The 40 EVs in Atk are there just because they have nowhere better to be; at one point I had 20 in Def and 20 in SpD, but they didn't do anything important so I decided that marginally increasing the power of U-turn and Explosion was better. The moveset is fairly self-explanatory: Taunt prevents slower leads from setting up, which is quite good when you take into account Azelf's speed and bulk. U-turn allows me to beat faster leads who think they can Taunt and/or heavily damage me, namely: other Azelf, Aerodactyl and Starmie. Stealth Rock is simply required in today's metagame, and this Azelf is the most reliable pokemon at setting them up early in the game. Finally, Explosion allows this Azelf to 'defeat' bulky leads after I have set up Stealth Rock and prevented them from doing so. I'd also like to note that I play much more conservatively than normal with this Azlef, this is because that mid-to-late-game Explosion proves to be invaluable in taking down slower pokemon once my opponent's Ghost-type is gone. Also, Azelf's Taunt is one of the few moves I have which can actually hurt stall, so I need to keep him around, just in case. All in all, Colbur Berry Azelf is my favorite lead of all time, and here's why, in detail:

• Lead Matchups:
  
  
  
  Azelf: U-turn to Flygon, then U-turn back to Azelf. KOing in the process and hopefully preventing Stealth Rock.
  
  
  Aerodactyl: U-turn to Vaporeon, Surf for the KO.
  
  
  Swampert: Taunt, Stealth Rock, then U-turn since many people switch in a Ghost at this point.
  
  
  Machamp: Stealth Rock as their Payback fails to KO, then Explode in their face.
  
  
  Metagross: Stealth Rock, and proceed depending on what they do.
  
  
  Jirachi: The only lead who might beat Azelf. I try to Stealth Rock to see what they lock themselves into, then go from there.
  
  
  Infernape: Take the Fake Out, then Stealth Rock and U-turn to Vaporeon.
  
  
  Ninjask: I time-out because I can't stop laughing at the noobishness that is Ninjask. I'm kidding, I Stealth Rock, then Taunt.
  
  
  Roserade: Stealth Rock turn one. I don't Taunt cuz they always predict that, and if they don't, I don't mind Azelf being asleep.
  
  
  Hippowdon: Taunt, Stealth Rock, U-turn to Vaporeon.
  
  
  Tyranitar: Stealth Rock as they Payback right into Colbur Berry, then U-turn to Flygon.
  
  
  Heatran: Stealth Rock, then U-turn to Flygon. I don't Taunt because Heatran can 2HKO and I like to keep Azelf for later.
  
  
  Smeargle: TrickScarf Smeargle is annoying but I Taunt anyway, because letting non-scarfers Spore Azelf and set up is just terrible.
  
  
  Uxie: These guys are always TrickScarfers so I Stealth Rock as they Trick me and Switch to Flygon as they Thunder Wave.
  
  
  Starmie: U-turn to Flygon after taking the Surf/Hydro Pump. Then U-turn back to Azelf, since I outspeed and KO.

• Possible Changes:
  
  
  • None at this time.

• Item: Shuca Berry
• Ability: Flash Fire
• Nature: Timid
• EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
• Moveset:
  • Fire Blast
  • Earth Power
  • Taunt
  • Hidden Power Electric

• Why this pokemon?
  
  Heatran, the so-called anti-metagame pokemon, has now become the metagame, how I love irony. This slot on the team was dedicated to him from the very beginning, but as I said before, it began as a Scarf Heatran with Explosion over Hidden Power, and Dragon Pulse over Taunt. Shuca Berry is such an awesome item on Heatran, it allows me to feign a Choice Item and get a lot of surprise kills. I lost count of all the Flygon, Gliscor, Gyarados and Heatran that I have caught off guard with this set. Yeah, the loss of Explosion sucks major balls, but Taunt is just as helpful against Blissey. Everything else is kind of self-explanatory but I guess I'll talk about it anyway. Max Spe and a Timid nature allow Heatran to at the very worse, tie with other Heatran; this is extremely important now that he has become the most used pokemon. Max SpA is used to maximize Heatran's damage output. The remaining 4 EVs go into HP to slightly increase his overall bulk (I refuse to move them to Def or SpD because I am a rebel!). Heatran also acts as my secondary check to other Heatran, should Vaporeon not be able to for whatever reason. Heatran's natural bulk allows him to take resisted hits (and even some neutral ones!) like a champ and fire back, literally. He also loves to come in on random Fire moves to get that Flash Fire boost and proceed to kick everyone's ass; even Vaporeon takes nice hit from Flash Fire boosted Fire Blast. Note that at the time I posted this RMT, the set was Fire Blast / Earth Power / Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Grass; I switched over to Taunt and Hidden Power Electric for two reasons. First, Taunt is very useful against stall, something this team has some trouble with, and second, Hidden Power Electric helps to better lure Gyarados, who can actually stop a Lucario sweep.

• Possible Changes:
  
  
  • None at this time.

• Item: Choice Scarf
• Ability: Levitate
• Nature: Adamant
• EVs: 48 HP / 232 Atk / 228 Spe
• Moveset:
  • U-turn
  • Earthquake
  • Outrage
  • ThunderPunch

• Why this pokemon?
  
  Why not this pokemon? Just look at that super cool sprite! Seriously though, besides the fact that Flygon is my favorite pokemon of all time (which is why he gets a special sprite), he is a beast! This set is nothing more than a tweaked version of the standard Choice Scarf set. How did I come up with it? Simple, when coupled with a Choice Scarf, 228 Spe EVs is just enough to outpace +2 Modest Empoleon, max speed +1 Jolly Gyarados, +1 Jolly Dragonite and +1 Adamant Kingdra (Jolly versions hit like a schoolgirl and are handled by Vaporeon). This also allows me to be slower than Scarf Rotom-A, which is cool because a lot of them stay in, locked on Thunderbolt, expecting to hit the pokemon who comes in after the U-turn. 48 HP EVs increase Flygon's overall bulk and guarantee that he can take a +2 Jolly Lucario ExtremeSpeed after one hit from Stealth Rock and give him a good chance to do so after two as well. Otherwise, Jolly Lucario rips this team to shreds (Adamant ones get outsped by Rotom). 232 Atk and an Adamant nature make the most of Flygon's damage capabilities and help him clean up late game when either, all Flyers and Levitators or all Steel-types, are gone. The moveset is pretty standard: U-turn to scout and kill weakened Azelf and Starmie, Earthquake and Outrage are Flygon's awesome dual STAB which allow him to clean late-game if necessary, and ThunderPunch is to revenge kill any Dragon Dance Gyarados. Another one of the perks of this set is the synergy it provides my team; if Heatran doesnt feel like using his berry just yet, Flygon will happily come in; if Vaporeon is targeted by an Electric move, Flygon will gladly take that free switch-in; he can also take weak Fire moves aimed at Lucario. And now that Hetran is the most used pokemon, this guy gets a ton of free switch-ins. Flygon is also my primary Trick receiver. Overall, the sheer utility this guy offers this team is it's most valuable asset. Note that I recently moved 20 EVs from Atk to Spe in order to outspeed +2 Modest Empoleon.

• Possible Changes:
  
  
  • None at this time.

• Item: Leftovers
• Ability: Water Absorb
• Nature: Bold
• EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 24 SpD / 12 Spe
• Moveset:
  • Surf
  • Wish
  • Protect
  • Roar

• Why this pokemon?
  
  Everyone knows how good Bulky Waters are, Vaporeon is just the best one, and that's why she's here. As you can see, none of my other team members carry an instant recovery move, Vaporeon tries to alleviate that problem through Wish. Heatran comes in on Grass moves aimed at her, while Flygon and Rotom come in on the Electric ones. Lucario tends to not take much damage so he doesn't need Wish and Azelf has either Exploded, or is going to Explode soon, so he doesn't either. Protect lets Vaporeon do two main things - heal itself more reliably, and scout the next move of Choice locked pokemon. Surf is Vaporeon's generic STAB move, it has great neutral coverage and it prevents her from becoming complete Taunt bait. Why Roar? Because I love scouting. And it also helps against those pesky Kingdra and Dragonite whom none of Vaporeon's other moves can touch (except Toxic, but I hate the 15% miss chance). The EV's might look more complicated than necessary, but they're actually quite simple: 252 HP EVs give Vaporeon 464 HP, a Leftovers number, and the best overall bulk possible. 220 Def with the Bold nature and 24 SpD EVs give Vaporeon 232 Def and SpD. This serves two purposes, although only one is competitively relevant: they make Vaporeon's SpD equal to her Def (something I'm very OCD about) and more importantly, allow her to better take random hits equally well from both sides of the spectrum, making her a great mixed wall/tank-thing. Finally, 12 Spe EVs are used to outspeed the Standard Choice Band Scizor by one point (speed creep, woop!). Note that my previous spread, consisting of 188 HP / 252 Def / 56 SpD / 12 Spe with a Bold Nature, was changed to this one after some damage calcs proved it's superiority.

• Possible Changes:
  
  
  • None at this time.

• Item: Life Orb
• Ability: Inner Focus
• Nature: Jolly
• EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
• Moveset:
  • Close Combat
  • ExremeSpeed
  • Swords Dance
  • Crunch

• Why this pokemon?
  
  Lucario is definitely the most effective sweeper in the metagame right now. Not only because one of his top checks is gone, but also because Tyranitar, Heatran and Blissey are everywhere. Ok, maybe not so much Blissey, but she is definitely around. This is as bog standard as it gets, aside from the Jolly nature and having the final 4 EVs in HP as opposed to SpD (let Porygon Z get that Download boost, I don't care! I'm a fucking rebel dammit!). 252 Spe EVs and a Jolly nature maximize Lucario's sweeping capabilities and allow him to outspeed Offensive Suicune, Timid Rotom-A, Heracross and general base speed 80 pokemon. It also gives me an additional 50% check to Jolly Lucario, who can easily threaten a sweep if Flygon has been sufficiently weakened. 252 Atk maximize his sweeping capabilities and give him a ton of power. I've been switching from Adamant to Jolly for a while now, but this time I'm sticking to Jolly, because outspeeding the increasingly popular Specs Rotom-A and Offensive Suicune is invaluable. Lucario usually comes out against Choice-locked Tyranitar, most people Swords Dance right away, but thats because most people are retarded. I spam Crunch to catch those pesky Ghost-types who think they counter Lucario. Gengar and Scarf Rotom are OHKO'd on the switch-in, while Defensive Rotom are 2HKO'd which is okay, since Lucario is faster. I don't immediately set up on Blissey either, as that's just plain stupid. Since most carry either, Thunder Wave or Flamethrower, they tend to stay in against Lucario to try and prevent the set up. Because of this, I simply Close Combat for a free kill; since if they do switch, I still got a buttload of damage on their switch in. Anyway, Lucario is mostly here to take advantage of the insane amount of Tyranitar and Heatran in the game right now. "But koko, most Tyranitar and Heatran are scarfed so, even if you set up, they're going to revenge kill you anyway!!!" WRONG! Keep reading and you'll see what I mean.

• Possible Changes:
  
  
  • None at this time.

• Item: Leftovers
• Ability: Levitate
• Nature: Timid
• EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
• Moveset:
  • Thunderbolt
  • Shadow Ball
  • Thunder Wave
  • Overheat

• Why this pokemon?
  
  This guy is quite possibly the very reason for this team's success, and it's all thanks to one move: Thunder Wave. You know how I said you were wrong about ScarfTran and ScarfTar revenging Lucario? Well Rotom's Thunder Wave is the reason why. Tyranitar and Heatran just happen to be two of Rotom's most common switch-ins, and hitting them with Thunder Wave, makes them completely helpless against Lucario. Anyway, 252 HP EVs yields 304 HP, which might seem low, but when coupled with 250 Def and SpD is pretty bulky. It also yields one of them Leftovers numbers thingies, so that's pretty cool. 216 Spe EVs and the Timid nature put Rotom at 288 Speed, just enough to outpace Jolly Gyarados, and Adamant Lucario. The remaining 40 EVs go into SpA to slightly increase his damage output, I don't think they get any extra KOs, but whatever. Rotom has pretty good synergy with the rest of the team, as previously stated, he comes in on Vaporeon's Electric weakness, but he can also come in Heatran's Fighting or Ground weaknesses. Besides that, he comes in, paralyzes some shit, hits some shit, and blocks some Rapid Spins. You know, the usual. Do not tell me to replace Thunder Wave for Will-O-Wisp on this guy, I'm not gonna do it. Not only is Will-O-Wisp a piece of shit that misses more than it hits, its also flat out less useful on a team with Lucario as it's sweeper. Note that this slot was previously held by the Wash forme Rotom, I switched over because the threat of Hydro Pump deterred some ScarfTar and ScarfTran from switching in, which was undesirable as I would much rather hit them with Thunder Wave.

• Possible Changes:
  
  
  • I'm considering running max Spe in order to outspeed Offensive Suicune and Heracross, as well as tie with other Timid Rotom.

- ONE LAST LOOK -​

This team has, by far, brought me the most success on the ladder, I have yet to achieve a very high ranking because I don't play all that much (back when I did, I was in the mid-to-high 1500s), but when I do, this team wins 80%+ of my games. Also, I was going to write longer character descriptions for each team member, but I already spent the greater part of my day typing up this damn RMT. I might add them sometime later this week though, since I have no school or work for now and my girlfriend is in motherfucking Poland for vacation. -_- Anyway, I greatly appreciate any and all comments and/or rates, thanks in advance. - kokoloko

PS: Click here if you're interested in seeing this team in action.

- TOP 30 OU THREATS (JUNE 2010) -​

Scizor: Heatran and Rotom keep it in check.

Heatran: Flygon, Vaporeon, my own Heatran.

Salamence: HA HA HA! bitch.

Tyranitar: Flygon and Vaporeon keep it in check.

Gyarados: It usually gets lured by Heatran. If that fails, Vaporeon, Rotom and/or Flygon keep it from doing anything.

Gengar: Vaporeon can take hits, Flygon can revenge it.

Jirachi: Heatran laughs at all Jirachi. Flygon can revenge it.

Rotom-A: Heatran keeps him down. Flygon gets free switches.

Starmie: Choiced ones are easy. Life Orb ones require tricky switches to Flygon.

Infernape: Vaporeon can take most of them. Flygon can revenge the others.

Metagross: Heatran, Flygon and Rotom keep it down.

Swampert: Vaporeon can take it with no problems.

Blissey: Flygon is my initial switch to avoid Thunder Wave, one U-turn later, Lucario fucks her world up.

Machamp: Lead ones get blown up on by Azelf. Others get kept down by not being able to switch in on much. Worse case, Rotom gets sacrificed down.

Lucario: Adamant ones get ripped by Rotom, Jolly ones are problematic if Flygon is too weak to take the ExtremeSpeed.

Azelf: Usually a lead. They eat a U-turn from Azelf, then another from Flygon, and die.

Breloom: He's always a bitch because it comes in on Vaporeon. I let it Spore something, then Rotom can take it down.

Gliscor: The stallbreaker set is a bitch to this team, mostly I try to blow it up with Azlef. This guy is one of the reasons I used to run Rotom-W > Rotom-H. Sometimes I can get a hit in with Heatran thanks to Shuca Berry.

Flygon: Vaporeon walls it all day long. My own Flygon and Rotom get free switches.

Skarmory: Heatran, Rotom.

Vaporeon: This guy is a bitch to kill, but it dies eventually to repeated hits.

Jolteon: Flygon comes in on the Thunderbolt, Heatran on the Shadow Ball.

Suicune: Vaporeon doesn't let it do shit. Rotom can revenge it.

Dragonite: Vaporeon can take hits and Roar it. Flygon can revenge all versions.

Celebi: Flygon has a Thunder Wave immunity. Heatran can take it on too.

Magnezone: Heatran, Flygon, Rotom, Lucario.

Zapdos: Flygon can take offensive versions, Heatran takes defensive ones, hopefully after getting a Flash Fire boost from Heat Wave.

Kingdra: Flygon revenges Adamant ones. Vaporeon walls Jolly ones.

Togekiss: Rotom, Vaporeon. Kind of a bitch, but he's rare so whatever.

Bronzong: Rotom and Heatran beat regular versions. Vaporeon stalls out the Trick Room if necessary.

Nice team.

Just a nitpick because I'm tired. Vaporeon gets slightly better defenses on both sides by running 252hp 220def 24spdef 12spe. Defenses are still equal, and a leftovers number is attained as well.

jc104 said:

Nice team.

Just a nitpick because I'm tired. Vaporeon gets slightly better defenses on both sides by running 252hp 220def 24spdef 12spe. Defenses are still equal, and a leftovers number is attained as well.

Click to expand...

Actually I did come calcs from both the physical and the special side, and he takes slightly less with my current spread. Thanks anyway though.

Actually I did come calcs from both the physical and the special side, and he takes slightly less with my current spread. Thanks anyway though

Click to expand...

Yeah. Its actually so marginal that it depends on the move. The defense EVs applet suggests my spread which is a good sign. I suppose I'll show some calcs.

Standard MixNite Draco Meteor vs my spread: 34.5% - 40.7%
Your spread: 34.6% - 40.8%

Scarftar Stone Edge vs my spread - 36.4% - 43.3%
Your spread: 36.8% - 43.5%

Specially based Mixape CC vs my spread - 40.3% - 47.8%
Yours: 40.8% - 48.2%

GK vs mine: 31.9% - 37.9%
GK vs yours: 32.1% - 37.9%

If you need persuading I can provide more, but actually after running a few calcs I have decided that it is largely an irrelevance.

edit - by testing with an incredibly powerful move such as +6 Specs Modest Roserade Leaf Storm, you get a better idea of pure defensive potential.

Thats weird, I ran calcs for Grass Knot and mine came out as less damage. Well I suppose it doesn't matter if I change it or not, since it varies on the move, but I probably will when, and if, I stop being lazy. Thanks for that.

EDIT: So I did that calc and here's the results:

+6 Modest Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 188 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 641.5% - 755.4%
+6 Modest Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Vaporeon: 640.5% - 753.9%

So on the special side, the damage difference is minimal, even at those levels.

Then I decided to run a calc on the physical side and here's the results:

+6 Adamant Choice Band Breloom Wood Hammer vs. 188 HP / 252 Def Vaporeon: 489.3% - 576.3%
+6 Adamant Choice Band Breloom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 220 Def Vaporeon: 489.2% - 575.9%

I know Breloom doesn't get Wood Hammer, btw. It was just to test it out. Anyway, on the physical side the damage is also marginally less, so I'm obviously going to be switching over to the other EV spread, even though it probably won't make a difference.

This looks like a very good team with a lot of synergy and an easy-to-accomplish goal. I don't really have any suggestions as it seems like it can check a good amount of threats.

greg3064 said:

This looks like a very good team with a lot of synergy and an easy-to-accomplish goal. I don't really have any suggestions as it seems like it can check a good amount of threats.

Click to expand...

Thanks man. I appreciate the compliment.

This is undoubtedly a solid team, however, the gapping stall weakness certainly needs to be adressed. This team will struggle to get past a decent stall team; this is generally caused by the lack of immediate power or stall-breakers. The easiest fix to this issue without resorting to more complicated changes is to opt for Life Orb + Taunt Heatran (Timid Nature). Use the following moveset: Fire Blast | Earthpower | Hidden Power Electric | Taunt with LO as an item and 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe. Taunt is very useful against stall teams, negating any of your foe's attempts to heal or set up entry hazards. With HP Electric, Heatran will be able to effectively lure in Rest-talk Gyarados which is usually used on stall to counter SD Lucario, and take it down. With stall weakened thanks to Heatran and Gyarados out of the way, Lucario should be able to break through most of the time.

As for minor changes, go for an Adamant Nature on Lucario. You need all the power you can get when facing stall teams as you get higher on the ladder. IIRC, Jolly misses out on some OHKOs and with Rotom-W spreading paralysis with Thunder Wave, Jolly doesn't seem like the superior option instead of Adamant. Also, consider using 8 HP / 140 Atk / 144 SpD / 216 Spe as an EV spread on Azelf. Check this link to see what it does. (Colbur Azelf)

Solid team. Good luck

Nosferalto said:

This is undoubtedly a solid team, however, the gapping stall weakness certainly needs to be adressed. This team will struggle to get past a decent stall team; this is generally caused by the lack of immediate power or stall-breakers. The easiest fix to this issue without resorting to more complicated changes is to opt for Life Orb + Taunt Heatran (Timid Nature). Use the following moveset: Fire Blast | Earthpower | Hidden Power Electric | Taunt with LO as an item and 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe. Taunt is very useful against stall teams, negating any of your foe's attempts to heal or set up entry hazards. With HP Electric, Heatran will be able to effectively lure in Rest-talk Gyarados which is usually used on stall to counter SD Lucario, and take it down. With stall weakened thanks to Heatran and Gyarados out of the way, Lucario should be able to break through most of the time.

As for minor changes, go for an Adamant Nature on Lucario. You need all the power you can get when facing stall teams as you get higher on the ladder. IIRC, Jolly misses out on some OHKOs and with Rotom-W spreading paralysis with Thunder Wave, Jolly doesn't seem like the superior option instead of Adamant. Also, consider using 8 HP / 140 Atk / 144 SpD / 216 Spe as an EV spread on Azelf. Check this link to see what it does. (Colbur Azelf)

Solid team. Good luck

Click to expand...

First of all, thanks for the input, its greatly appreciated. Secondly, I've never really had many problems with stall because of the way I play with Azelf; since I tend to play more conservatively with him, his Taunt becomes my main weapon against stall. Eventually, some key member of their team goes down and I break through somehow. That said however, I do understand the notion that as I get higher in the ladder I'm bound to face tougher stall teams. Because of this, I'll definitely try out your Heatran since it sounds like it could work (not sure about Life Orb though). As for Lucario, the reason I run Jolly is mostly because Jolly Gyarados and Timid Rotom always try to speed creep Adamant Lucario. However, if I do end up changing Heatran to the set you suggested, I see little harm in changing Lucario's nature. Finally, the reason I dislike the standard Colbur Azelf is because it's designed to always be a suicide lead. My version, on the other hand, is geared more towards staying alive a bit longer and providing some utility later in the game.

This is a really solid build, and the team has reached a point where its pretty much perfect. There are just a few small tweaks that I would make in order to (hopefully!) improve the overall performance of the team. As Nosferalto pointed out, stall teams look like they can cause you a bit of a headache, as really nothing is stopping common Spikes users, like Skarmory and Forretress, from coming in on a weak hit from Flygon and setting up. From there your team will kinda have a tough time, as three of your key members, Heatran, Vaporeon, and Lucario, take damage from Spikes. I'd be worried about Pokemon like Blissey setting up on Heatran, too, as he cant really do anything back to her.

A smaller change that I would make to somewhat cushion the blow from stall is to change Dragon Pulse to Taunt on Heatran. In my opinion, you dont need Dragon Pulse that badly, as Flygon can already revenge kill all of the Dragons who youre concerned about hitting. Taunt will at least enable you to stop Pokemon like Blissey from setting up on you, who could otherwise potentially be annoying. Heatran already forces out Spikes users, so by using Taunt you can just make him even more antistall than he currently is.

I also advise you to try your hand at using Rotom-H over Rotom-W, and using Overheat in Hydro Pump's slot (everything else should stay the same!). By using Rotom-H, Tyranitar and Heatran will be even more willing to come in on you, so you can just paralyze them right off the bat even more easily. As for Overheat, it'll allow you to smash Adamant Lucario, as you cant OHKO Adamant Lucario with the Rotom set that youre currently running.

Very solid team, and good luck in the future! 5 stars.

I have to agree with Snorlaxe on this one. Taunt on Heatran helps you deal with Stall much better since Azelf and Lucario are really your only options against the SkarmBliss Combo. All hard stall teams have a spin blocker which rules out Azelf from doing much which leaves Lucario as your best option vs Stall. Taunt on Heatran helps fix this problems as explained by Snorlaxe above. The only other issue I can see that this team has seems to be a Sub Gengar. Sure, Vaporeon can take a hit or too but Gengar is still doing a ton too pretty much everyone else. Nor can Flygon revenge successfull if it behind a Sub. Not much I can suggest to fix this issue however so I guess it just a Heads Up.

Have a Nice Day!

Snorlaxe said:

This is a really solid build, and the team has reached a point where its pretty much perfect. There are just a few small tweaks that I would make in order to (hopefully!) improve the overall performance of the team. As Nosferalto pointed out, stall teams look like they can cause you a bit of a headache, as really nothing is stopping common Spikes users, like Skarmory and Forretress, from coming in on a weak hit from Flygon and setting up. From there your team will kinda have a tough time, as three of your key members, Heatran, Vaporeon, and Lucario, take damage from Spikes. I'd be worried about Pokemon like Blissey setting up on Heatran, too, as he cant really do anything back to her.

A smaller change that I would make to somewhat cushion the blow from stall is to change Dragon Pulse to Taunt on Heatran. In my opinion, you dont need Dragon Pulse that badly, as Flygon can already revenge kill all of the Dragons who youre concerned about hitting. Taunt will at least enable you to stop Pokemon like Blissey from setting up on you, who could otherwise potentially be annoying. Heatran already forces out Spikes users, so by using Taunt you can just make him even more antistall than he currently is.

I also advise you to try your hand at using Rotom-H over Rotom-W, and using Overheat in Hydro Pump's slot (everything else should stay the same!). By using Rotom-H, Tyranitar and Heatran will be even more willing to come in on you, so you can just paralyze them right off the bat even more easily. As for Overheat, it'll allow you to smash Adamant Lucario, as you cant OHKO Adamant Lucario with the Rotom set that youre currently running.

Very solid team, and good luck in the future! 5 stars.

Click to expand...

The things you're suggesting are the exact same things I was planning on testing, in addition to HP Electric on Heatran, so I obviously agree with you 100%. I guess great minds do think alike.

Thank you very much for the input, compliment and the 5 star rating.

ginganinja said:

I have to agree with Snorlaxe on this one. Taunt on Heatran helps you deal with Stall much better since Azelf and Lucario are really your only options against the SkarmBliss Combo. All hard stall teams have a spin blocker which rules out Azelf from doing much which leaves Lucario as your best option vs Stall. Taunt on Heatran helps fix this problems as explained by Snorlaxe above. The only other issue I can see that this team has seems to be a Sub Gengar. Sure, Vaporeon can take a hit or too but Gengar is still doing a ton too pretty much everyone else. Nor can Flygon revenge successfull if it behind a Sub. Not much I can suggest to fix this issue however so I guess it just a Heads Up.

Have a Nice Day!

Click to expand...

First off, thanks for the input, I apreciate it a lot. Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree with Snorlaxe as well, which is why I will definitely be testing those changes later today. However, I think you underestimate Azelf as a stallbreaker, with Wish support from Vaporeon, he can stick around a surprisingly long time and throw Taunt around against stall. I realize the team looks very stall weak, but I guess my conservative play-style with Azelf makes up for it somewhat. Taunt on Heatran is still a very likely possibility, though. Gengar does cause me some problems, but not more so than any other team, Gengar is just always a bitch.

looks like a good team and i love the original theme, but it seems like others are already copying. oh well, heres my 2 cents:

Everything looks great. However, if I were to use this team, I would probably keep up with the fast offensive tempo and actually use a CM/3 Attack Suicune over Vaporeon. Not only do you keep your answer to Gyarados and Infernape, but you also get a much more reliable killer to Non-Scarf Rotom, Lucario, and Scizor. This alone would be enough to advocate a change. I definitely see the merit of vaporeon though, and I think Suicune would be a good Pokemon to test, but in the end, it will just be up to you.

Great job =D

eh you seem to have enough ground resists not sure if shuca is optimal on Heatran. I'd suggest Life Orb or even better: Expert Belt. Magma storm, Hidden Power Grass, Earth Power, Explosion is pretty neat. It allows you to trap and kill Swampert and Blissey. I agree with Kd24's suggestion of 3 atk lefties cm cune, I dunno if you wanna be slowing yourself down with vappy. great team, excellent idea and presentation, though it's a pity people are copying you already =(

kd24 said:

looks like a good team and i love the original theme, but it seems like others are already copying. oh well, heres my 2 cents:

Everything looks great. However, if I were to use this team, I would probably keep up with the fast offensive tempo and actually use a CM/3 Attack Suicune over Vaporeon. Not only do you keep your answer to Gyarados and Infernape, but you also get a much more reliable killer to Non-Scarf Rotom, Lucario, and Scizor. This alone would be enough to advocate a change. I definitely see the merit of vaporeon though, and I think Suicune would be a good Pokemon to test, but in the end, it will just be up to you.

Great job =D

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Haha, go easy on reyscarface, he actually VM'd me like 2 minutes after I posted this saying he was going to do the same thing, so he didn't actually copy me.

Now about the team: I actually used Lefties CM + 3 Attacks Suicune when this team was first made, but I didn't like it much. It gets ripped by Grass Knots and isn't much of a team player. But I guess now that the team is slightly different, I can try it out again.

6A9 Ace Matador said:

eh you seem to have enough ground resists not sure if shuca is optimal on Heatran. I'd suggest Life Orb or even better: Expert Belt. Magma storm, Hidden Power Grass, Earth Power, Explosion is pretty neat. It allows you to trap and kill Swampert and Blissey. I agree with Kd24's suggestion of 3 atk lefties cm cune, I dunno if you wanna be slowing yourself down with vappy. great team, excellent idea and presentation, though it's a pity people are copying you already =(

Click to expand...

Meh, I was never a fan of Magma Storm, I already hate when Fire Blast misses, and I never use Gengar because of Focus Blast's bullshit accuracy. The thing about Shuca Berry is that it allows me to get a shitload of surprise kills on shit like Gliscor and Swampert/Gyarados who think they can fuck around while I'm stuck on Earth Power. Offensive Suicune is a consideration as I stated above.

To both of you, thanks a lot for the input and compliments; they're greatly appreciated.

Can't believe this thread died =/

Anyway, I updated the team with some changes suggested by the above posters. Heatran is now better equipped to deal with stall, while also luring Gyarados as opposed to Swampert. Rotom-W was replaced by Rotom-H in order to better lure ScarfTran and ScarfTar into the Thunder Wave so that they are unable to stop my Lucario sweep.

Any other suggestions?

Hey,I Actually Tested Your Team,It Does Have Weakness Against LO Gengar Meaning Ohkoing Every Pokemon In Your Team And Flygon Cant Do Anyone To It >_>..

I'm Just Suggesting,But I Will Find a Way to Counter This

Hi,

Nice team. Nothing much to say here but Roar on vaporeon is really a waste of a move to me. You should replace it with Toxic or Hidden power Electric to take out the opposing vaporeon.

[DR]InferNAPE said:

Hey,I Actually Tested Your Team,It Does Have Weakness Against LO Gengar Meaning Ohkoing Every Pokemon In Your Team And Flygon Cant Do Anyone To It >_>..

I'm Just Suggesting,But I Will Find a Way to Counter This

Click to expand...

Vaporeon gets 3HKOd by Life Orb Shadow Ball so I don't know what you're talking about, she does fine. The only way Gengar can reliably beat Vaporeon is with Thunderbolt, and if it has that, it probably lacks Substitute, in which case Flygon revenge kills.

BlazeMurder said:

Hi,

Nice team. Nothing much to say here but Roar on vaporeon is really a waste of a move to me. You should replace it with Toxic or Hidden power Electric to take out the opposing vaporeon.

Click to expand...

Nah, I don't like Hidden Power on Vaporeon, he has way too many more useful support options. Toxic would be a consideration, but I dislike 85% accuracy.

Thanks for the input anyway guys.

change rotom's EV spread to 252 hp / 188 speed / 70 sp. atk

still outspeeds all non-scarf heatran and adamant lucario, while giving you 30 more sp. atk EV's to hit harder.

DarXidE said:

change rotom's EV spread to 252 hp / 188 speed / 70 sp. atk

still outspeeds all non-scarf heatran and adamant lucario, while giving you 30 more sp. atk EV's to hit harder.

Click to expand...

The 216 Spe EVs are designed to outrun Jolly Gyarados as well, so they're staying. But I did forget to mention that in the OP, so thanks for bringing it it up.

This team caught my eye about a month back. I have to say, it's one of the most stable teams I have ever seen. It has wicked synergy and can take on just about everything. However, you're right, it does have trouble with stall. Especially if you get higher up the ladder. A smart opponent with gliscor gives you trouble and if vappy is out of the equation, Weavile walks all over you or leaves some holes in your team if it isn't within revenge range from an extremespeed.

During the month I have been using your team on wi-fi and on PO (shoddy won't work on my computer) with stellar results. Hope you don't mind. ;P
Someone recognized it and was like "I know every move you are going to make." He didn't predict me as well as he though he would and lost. Of course if anyone does ask I will refer them to you. Your Tran set is absolutely amazing. I wasn't a fan of berries until I started using your team. I had one battle where Tran took out 4 of my opponents Pokemon handily. Everything went exactly like how it was intended. Felt good man.

I wouldn't make any changes to your team. It's one of the most solid teams I have ever used if not the most. It's my kind of battle style to boot so I got along with it well. I have one nitpick, though. Vaporeon can be a bit of a momentum killer on your team. The way I see it, your team is balanced, but leaning towards a more offensive approach. Although vappy is good to take out Gengars and bulky ground types, it falls to poison and toxic spikes coupled with a smart opponent. For myself, personally, I never found time to wish, since it threw my momentum off. That is why I replaced Vappy with a choice TrickSpecs Starmie. Starmie takes care of gengar, gliscor, mamoswine, and zapdos; which all give your team some problems. It also criples Snorlax and Blissey with trick who makes your team baww if your lucario is down or you can't manage to explode in their faces with azelf. The specs on Starmie also help it put holes in anything switching in helping your team compensate for lack of spikes (which usually works out fine but, hey). I know starm brings more t-tar weakness, but your team find it's way around him fairly well. A predicted switch to tar and starm can take it down with a surf (scarf-tar [after SR]), ohko I believe.

That's everything I have to say for now. I'm a bit tired, but if anything else comes to mind, I will make sure to tell you. Great work, seems a lot of good battlers come from New Jersey. ;P

And here I thought this thread was completely and utterly dead... thanks for reviving it =D Let me begin by saying thank you very much, I appreciate the compliments. Now on to my actual reply:

Yes, my team has a lot of trouble with stall. I have to either, depend on my Taunters and heal them through Vaporeon's Wish, or rely on Heatran to lure-in and take out their Rest-Talk Gyarados in order to open up a Lucario sweep. Those are basically my only chances at breaking through stall, which is terrible - unfortunately, I have yet to find a way to remedy this without compromising the team's integrity. Gliscor is a big bitch to this team though, even with Vaporeon, because it always runs Toxic. Weavile, on the other hand, is not a problem at all. I'm thinking you had trouble with it because you switched Vaporeon for Starmie, since Vaporeon is usually my main method of dealing with it.

Also, of course I don't mind, I take it as a compliment when people use my team (I caught a couple people on Shoddy as well). I can't really take much credit for the Heatran set though, since it's a basic LO Tran with Shuca > LO. However, I do know what you mean, there are games where Heatran just goes berserk on opposing teams.

Finally, Specs Starmie sounds interesting - it would make me sort of Weavile-weak, but it's Weavile so who the fuck cares, lol. I'll try it out for sure.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion, and the compliments man, I appreciate it a lot.

This is an awesome team on paper, how hsa testing and such gone? Have you considered running Will-o-Wisp on Rotom over overheat? It will help if you can catch Tyranitar and other physical sweepers on the switch, as after an overheat rotom has to switch out. I have had some good sucess with dual statis rotom, but its just an option, overall a very nice team, well done