Umbreon (Update)

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Umbreon

Hi C&C. Umbreon is a pretty bizarre Pokemon in OU, because there really isn't much reason to use its best sets when they are outclassed by other Pokemon. Anyway, feel free to weigh in on the posted set or what you think should be there if it's not already. This skeleton is in full compliance with Setsuna's decisions on Umbreon here. Cheers.

Status:
Written (Ready for GP Checks)
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •​

[Overview]

<p>Umbreon is a bizarre Pokemon. He can fill quite a few roles effectively, but has to compete with so many outright better Pokemon for the job that he is left with basically nothing to himself. As a special tank, he must contend with the behemoth that is Blissey, and as a Curse sweeper, he will always live in the shadow of Tyranitar. As a result of this, Umbreon's usage truly is bottom of the barrel in OU.</p>

<p>It's not all bad for Umbreon, however. Umbreon's value for Baton Pass teams is unquestioned with his ability to pass the coveted Mean Look. Outside of that, Umbreon likes long walks on the beach under moonlight, a good horror flick, and popcorn. If that weren't enough to convince you to use him, he also happens to be one of the most adorable Pokemon in the tier. More realistically, if you're not using Umbreon to Baton Pass Mean Look, don't use Umbreon.</p>

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Mean Look
move 3: Wish
move 4: Taunt / Yawn / Protect
item: Leftovers / Chople Berry
ability: Synchronize
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Fortunately for Umbreon, he happens to be the best at one thing and one thing alone: Baton Passing Mean Look. Mean Look's value may not be obvious at first glance, but with further investigation, it can sometimes mean the difference between winning a game with a Baton Pass team or losing it. Mean Look prevents the opponent from switching out, potentially allowing your Baton Pass chain to complete unopposed if you play your cards right.</p>

<p>Baton Pass and Mean Look form the basis of this set, allowing Umbreon to lock in an opponent and then pass off to something that can set up on whatever is trapped. Wish is a very good move to have in a Baton Pass chain, healing whatever you Baton Pass to or keeping Umbreon healthy as he tries to accomplish his job. In the last slot, Taunt is the preferred move. It is of utmost importance that Umbreon get off a Taunt first so as to not get Taunted when attempting to setup. Yawn can be incredibly valuable for forcing a second switch after your opponent's primary switch-in to Umbreon rears its ugly head. If this plays out right, Umbreon will be able to use Mean Look as the opponent brings out a mediocre Umbreon check at best. Protect is still an option to guarantee that Umbreon's Wish heals him, though, and can be useful in certain circumstances.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread is pretty straightforward for what Umbreon is trying to achieve with this set. 128 Speed EVs allow Umbreon to outspeed Aerodactyl and other base 130 Speed Pokemon after +2 Speed has been passed to him. This is important so that Umbreon can Taunt Aerodactyl first before he can Taunt Umbreon. 252 HP EVs are used to maximize Umbreon's general bulk, with the remaining 128 EVs placed in Special Defense so that Umbreon can better sustain the hits he typically switches into. As with the EVs, a Careful nature is used to boost Umbreon's already stellar Special Defense stat. Leftovers is the primary item on this set to add to Umbreon's durability, but Chople Berry can be very valuable in successfully getting off that one pivotal Mean Look pass against the Fighting-type Pokemon Umbreon lures.</p>

<p>This set doesn't necessarily have to be used on a dedicated Baton Pass team. Umbreon, when paired with Gyarados, for instance, can trap something like Scizor, survive an attack with a Chople Berry, and pass to Gyarados for an immense sweep. Other good teammates for shallow passes are Dragonite and Gliscor with Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, respectively.</p>

<p>As tempting as it might be, don't try to pair Umbreon with Ninjask. You're going to want to use Gliscor and Zapdos for Speed boosts on a Baton Pass chain that includes Umbreon. Zapdos can OHKO or scare off most of the Taunt users in the tier, while Gliscor has access to his own Taunt. Serendipitously, Gliscor and Zapdos both resist all of the attacking types that Umbreon is weak to, while Umbreon will happily take on Ice-type attacks with his great special bulk. As if this combination weren't already good enough, Scizor, the most common offensive Umbreon switch-in, is stopped cold by Zapdos. Since Umbreon will typically be setting up on Pokemon with physical attacks, Fighting-type attacks, or Taunt, a bulky Pokemon that boosts its own Defense is recommended. Scizor makes an excellent Iron Defense and Swords Dance Baton Passing Pokemon with respectable physical bulk, while Gliscor can set up Swords Dance and Rock Polish. If you don't use Yawn on Umbreon and can somehow get Smeargle in safely to use Spore, he can manage a Belly Drum pass and checkmate your opponent with relative ease.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>The best partners for Umbreon are Flying- and Ghost-type Pokemon because they resist the two attacking types that Umbreon is weak to. Zapdos, Gyarados, Gliscor, Dragonite, and Rotom-A all make excellent partners for this reason. They are all respectably bulky and can switch into Scizor and the Fighting-type Pokemon that Umbreon lures. Gliscor and Zapdos make the best Baton Pass partners with their ability to send Rock Polish and Agility, respectively, to Umbreon. On offensive teams where Umbreon is being used for shallow passing, Gyarados and Dragonite make excellent teammates for being able to set up Dragon Dance and take on typical responses to Umbreon.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Umbreon's movepool is about as barren as most Eevee evolutions. He has access to attacking moves in the form of Payback, Pursuit, and Dark Pulse to do some damage, but with those attacking stats, "some" damage is an overstatement. On the support side, Umbreon has Moonlight, Fake Tears, Screech, and Confuse Ray. Moonlight is almost always worse than Wish in a sandstorm-infested metagame, while the rest of the aforementioned options are underwhelming at best.</p>

<p>Umbreon can run a set of Curse, Payback, Wish, and Protect to attempt a sweep. Tyranitar runs this set better on almost all counts, though, with much higher Special Defense after the sandstorm boost, better HP, the ability to take status, and an almost absurdly higher Attack stat. The only reason you might use Umbreon over Tyranitar is that he doesn't have Tyranitar's Water-, Grass-, Ground-, Steel-, and extra Fighting-type weaknesses. Umbreon can also attempt to run a Wish support set for his team, but Blissey uses the same set infinitely better with her obscene special bulk. Umbreon can also make use of Baton Pass in one more way by passing Curse boosts to sweepers, but it is largely ineffective, and those turns are better spent having other Pokemon pass Swords Dance or Agility boosts.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Just about anything with a high-power Fighting- or Bug-type attack will send Umbreon reeling. Scizor is an especially terrifying check to Umbreon because he can maim Umbreon with U-turn and scout your team if you switch Umbreon out. Heracross, Machamp, Lucario, and Infernape all give Umbreon a lot of problems by resisting Dark-type attacks and threatening to OHKO in return. Despite the fact that Umbreon is not physically frail, the majority of super-powered physical attackers in OU, such as Metagross and Tyranitar, will shred Umbreon to pieces with neutral STAB attacks. Taunt users in Aerodactyl, Gyarados, and Azelf will give Umbreon issues if he is without an attack. Gyarados also threatens to set up on Umbreon, making him that much more deadly.</p>
 
I second Yawn being listed in AC. You can force out Umbreon's initial counter so you can trap something that won't totally kill Umbreon. Also, Curse NEEDS mention. Of all the Eveelutions, Umbreon is probably the best at Curse passing due to its huge SpD. And quite frankly, there aren't many other viable Curse passers out there (lol absol).
 
I'll mention Yawn in AC for sure. Also, Curse is a pretty terrible thing to Baton Pass because almost all Baton Pass teams rely on being faster than the opponent. A lot of what makes these teams successful is hitting first with super bulky Pokemon. Just because it can Baton Pass Curse effectively doesn't mean that you'd ever actually want to.
 
I would support Curse being added again. It's unique to Umbreon and reasonable if you can remove your opponent's fighting types and Scizor.
 
Yes, I third the idea of Curse on Umbreon. Tyranitar doesn't outclass it because he has many more weaknesses than Umbreon.
 
Outclassed by Curse Tyranitar? yeah watever lets just remove everything just because we can. So know in order to "keep" the Curse set it has to go to QC again? Blah.
 
Iuno man we're looking a tough situation right here. The problem arises in the fact that long ago X-act set the ou/uu cutoff at far too high so we ended up with ou pokemon that are terrible and don't deserve to be ou. Umbreon is one of those pokemon. Umbreon literally does nothing well in ou. mean look/baton pass isn't getting anyone these days and past that it really can't do anything. So we're looking at a pokemon that arguably can run absolutely nothing successfully. What do you do in that situation?

What I think we do right here is put the sets that it CAN run on here. They may not be good, they may not work, but from a theorymon standpoint they don't seem unreasonable. So curse umbreon is one of those sets. It works well in UU. It may be terrible in OU but the problem is every umbreon set works terrible in OU so you may as well view it as: well my opponent is using umbreon right now. umbreom is terrible in OU. i have no idea what he's running right now because there's only one set on smogon.

if a person is running umbreon it's likely because they're terrible. but all of its sets are in ou. but in the grand scheme of things curse is one of the better sets it can run
 
We don't review sets in terms of "what it can run", we review sets in terms of "how they function in the metagame", and QC decided that Curse isn't good enough "in the metagame" to deserve its own set. I'm in the camp that Curse Umbreon is pretty bad in the metagame as it stands, and doesn't deserve a mention outside of OO.
 
Curse Umbreon is actually pretty good with RestTalk. I tried the Curse / Payback / Wish / Protect and found it to be a piece of shit compared to Curse / Payback / Rest / Sleep Talk. This may sound farfetched, but that set actually gives Snorlax quite a run for its money. Umbreon is already bulky as fuck specially just like lax but gets a move that hits all types with good basepower (Payback) and has a great base 110 Physical Def. I found it to be good when even compared to Snorlax and Tyranitar. Pros and Cons?

vs. Snorlax
Pros:
-Rotom, Rotom, Rotom. Set 100% beats Rotom all the time.
-kills Starmie faster, however both are good vs. Starmie. (200 Atk EVs guarentees OHKO on Starmie with Payback after SR)
-good base def makes weaker fighting attacks actually quite laughable (ScarfTar Superpower, etc.)
-Actually a good ScarfTar counter surprisingly
-Can wall physical and special versions of Jirachi

Cons:
-Loses Fire resist for Heatran (though Scarf versions cannot 3HKO with Fire Blast)

vs. Tyranitar
Pros:
-Starmie Starmie Starmie. Tyranitar doesn't like Starmie I don't care what any of you say.
-Sandstream sucks for your teammates. Limits team building options.
-Less weaknesses (fuck you Celebi, Shaymin, Water Pokemon)
-Can survive all fighting attacks at +1 in a pinch.

Cons:
-Tar's Crunch can beat Skarmory with def drops.
-slightly higher damage output (Payback on Umbreon remedys lower attack somewhat)
 
We don't review sets in terms of "what it can run", we review sets in terms of "how they function in the metagame", and QC decided that Curse isn't good enough "in the metagame" to deserve its own set. I'm in the camp that Curse Umbreon is pretty bad in the metagame as it stands, and doesn't deserve a mention outside of OO.

But "in the metagame" Umbreon literally doesn't do anything well AT ALL. This is hard to deny. So what I'm trying to say in this situation is we ignore good/bad and have the sets that Umbreon can just run I guess. It's hard to explain but if we have 3-4 sets that Umbreon can run without you yelling and calling the other guy a massive retard I think that works.
 
This is for the people that think Curse Umbreon is "outclassed" by Tyranitar:

Umbreon's lowered vulnerability to fighting, ground, grass, and water type attacks differentiates it from Tyranitar, and its lack of Sandstream means it is better used for teams that dislike residual damage. Using Curse Umbreon with Wish not only lets it deal moderate damage and balance its defenses, but it also differentiates it from Tyranitar by being able to provide active support in Wish for the rest of the team if used.

I honestly can't see how it's outclassed, as they are both good in their own rights; however I can also see that it was probably more effective in the time before and during it's UU period.

NP Infernape rapes both of them, regardless...
 
calentaros said:
This is for the people that think Curse Umbreon is "outclassed" by Tyranitar:
You seriously underestimate the difference between 65 base Attack and 134 base Attack. Without any boosts or investment, Tyranitar has nearly twice the Attack stat of Umbreon. Using Wish and Protect on Umbreon makes it vulnerable to status, which Tyranitar can get around with Rest and Sleep Talk. If you decide to use Rest and Sleep Talk on Umbreon, you'll find that you're not using what makes it different (even though what makes it different also makes it bad), so you may as well be using Tyranitar. Tyranitar also has higher HP and Special Defense (after the sandstorm boost) than Umbreon. Umbreon is different from Tyranitar, to be sure, but even despite Tyranitar's added weaknesses, it is still worlds better than Umbreon at running a Curse set.
JabbaTheGriffin said:
But "in the metagame" Umbreon literally doesn't do anything well AT ALL.
Umbreon is pretty terrible, I agree, but the Mean Look Baton Pass set actually has a meaningful and useful niche in the tier. Baton Pass teams may be kind of crappy, but they are functional and can win games, so effective Baton Pass sets should get mention. I strongly feel that the way we've currently rendered Umbreon's writeup is the way that it should be done.
 
-snip-

Umbreon is pretty terrible, I agree, but the Mean Look Baton Pass set actually has a meaningful and useful niche in the tier. Baton Pass teams may be kind of crappy, but they are functional and can win games, so effective Baton Pass sets should get mention. I strongly feel that the way we've currently rendered Umbreon's writeup is the way that it should be done.

But Mean Look Baton Pass Umbreon, while effective, is still nothing like good enough to be OU - Smeargle does it far better, and aside from Curse, Umbreon learns nothing else to pass but Psych Up or Wish.
 
Smeargle doesn't do it better. Smeargle has pitiful defenses and cannot take a hit while trying to set up, whereas Umbreon can really take a beating with its defenses. Smeargle's only saving grace is access to Spore, which if anything, puts it on level ground with Umbreon.
 
Grammar Check (not GP)

Removals in Red
Additions in Blue

Rising Duck said:
[Overview]

<p>Umbreon is a bizarre Pokemon. He can actually do quite a few things effectively, but has to compete with so many outright better Pokemon for the job that he is left with basically nothing to himself. As a special tank, he must contend with the behemoth that is Blissey, and as a Curse sweeper, he will always live in the shadow of Tyranitar. As a result of this, Umbreon's usage truly is bottom of the barrel in OU.</p>

<p>It's not all bad for Umbreon, however, Umbreon's value for Baton Pass teams is unquestioned with his ability to pass the coveted Mean Look. Outside of that, Umbreon likes long walks on the beach under moonlight, a good horror flick, and popcorn. If that weren't enough to convince you to use him, he also happens to be one of the most adorable Pokemon in the tier. More realistically, though, if you're not using Umbreon to Baton Pass Mean Look, don't use Umbreon.</p>

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Mean Look
move 3: Wish
move 4: Taunt / Yawn / Protect
item: Leftovers / Chople Berry
ability: Synchronize
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 128 SpD / 128 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Fortunately for Umbreon, he happens to be the best at one thing and one thing alone: Baton Passing Mean Look. Mean Look's value may not be obvious at first glance, but with further investigation, it can sometimes mean the difference between winning a game with a Baton Pass team or losing it. Mean Look prevents the opponent from switching out, potentially allowing your Baton Pass chain to complete unopposed if you play your cards right.</p>

<p>Baton Pass and Mean Look form the basis of this set, allowing Umbreon to lock an opponent in and then pass off to something that can set up on whatever is stuck out. Wish is a very good move to have in a Baton Pass chain, healing whatever you Baton Pass to or keeping Umbreon healthy as he tries to accomplish his job. In the last slot, Taunt is the preferred move. It is of utmost great importance that Umbreon not get Taunted when attempting to setup and get off a Taunt first. Yawn can be incredibly valuable for forcing a second switch after your opponent's primary switch-in to Umbreon rears its ugly head. If this plays out right, Umbreon will be able to use Mean Look as the opponent brings out only a mediocre Umbreon check. Protect is still an option to guarantee that Umbreon's Wish heals him, though, and can be useful in certain circumstances.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread is pretty straightforward for what Umbreon is trying to achieve with this set. 128 Speed EVs allow Umbreon to outspeed Aerodactyl and other base 130 Speed Pokemon after +2 Speed has been passed to him. This is important so that Umbreon can Taunt Aerodactyl before he can Taunt Umbreon first. 252 HP EVs are used to maximize Umbreon's general bulk, with the remaining 128 EVs placed in Special Defense so that Umbreon can better sustain the hits he typically switches into. As with the EVs, a Careful nature is used to boost Umbreon's already stellar great Special Defense stat. Leftovers is the primary item on this set to add to Umbreon's durability, but Chople Berry can be very valuable in getting that one pivotal Mean Look pass off successfully against the Fighting-type Pokemon Umbreon lures.</p>

<p>This set doesn't necessarily have to be used on a dedicated Baton Pass team. Umbreon, when paired with Gyarados, for instance, can trap something like Scizor, survive an attack with a Chople Berry, and pass to Gyarados for an immense sweep. Other good teammates for shallow passes are Dragonite and Gliscor with Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, respectively.</p>

<p>As tempting as it might be, don't try to pair Umbreon with Ninjask. You're going to want to use Gliscor and Zapdos for Speed boosts on a Baton Pass chain including Umbreon. Zapdos can OHKO or scare off most of the Taunt users in the tier, while Gliscor has access to his own Taunt. Serendipitously, Gliscor and Zapdos both resist all of the attacking types that Umbreon is weak to, while Umbreon will happily take on Ice-type attacks with his great special bulk. As if this match weren't already good enough, Scizor, the most common offensive Umbreon switch-in, is stopped cold by Zapdos. Since Umbreon will typically be setting up on Pokemon with physical attacks, Fighting-type attacks, or Taunt, a bulky Pokemon that boosts its own Defense is recommended. Scizor makes an excellent Iron Defense and Swords Dance Baton Passing Pokemon with respectable physical bulk, while Gliscor can set up Swords Dance and Rock Polish. If you don't use Yawn on Umbreon and can somehow get Smeargle in safely to use Spore, he can manage a Belly Drum pass and checkmate your opponent with relative ease.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>The best partners for Umbreon are Flying- and Ghost-type Pokemon because they resist the two attacking types that Umbreon is weak to. Zapdos, Gyarados, Gliscor, Dragonite, and Rotom-A all make excellent partners for this reason. They are all respectably bulky and can switch into Scizor and the Fighting-type Pokemon that Umbreon lures. Gliscor and Zapdos make the best Baton Pass partners with their ability to send Rock Polish and Agility, respectably, to Umbreon. On offensive teams where Umbreon is being used for shallow passing, Gyarados and Dragonite make excellent teammates for being able to set up Dragon Dance and take on Umbreon's typical responses.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Umbreon's movepool is about as barren as most Eevee evolutions. He has access to attacking moves in the form of Payback, Pursuit, and Dark Pulse to do some damage, but with those attacking stats, "some" damage is an overstatement. On the support side, Umbreon has Moonlight, Fake Tears, Screech, and Confuse Ray. Moonlight is almost always worse than Wish in a sandstorm-infested metagame, while the rest of the aforementioned options are underwhelming at best.</p>

<p>Umbreon can run a set of Curse, Wish, Payback, and Protect to attempt a sweep. Tyranitar runs this set better on all counts, though, with much higher Special Defense, better HP, the ability to take status, and an almost absurdly higher Attack stat. Umbreon can also attempt to run a Wish support set for his team, but Blissey uses the same set infinitely better with her obscene special bulk. Umbreon can also make use of Baton Pass in one more way by passing Curse boosts to sweepers, but it is largely ineffective and those turns are better spent having other Pokemon pass Swords Dance or Agility boosts.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Just about anything with a high-power Fighting-type attack will send Umbreon reeling fleeing. Scizor is an especially terrifying response to Umbreon because it can maim critically injure him with U-turn and also scout your switch-in. Heracross, Machamp, Lucario, and Infernape all give Umbreon a lot of problems by resisting Dark-type attacks and threatening to OHKO in return. Despite that Umbreon is not physically frail, the majority of super powered physical attackers in OU, such as Metagross and Tyranitar, will shred Umbreon to pieces with neutral STAB attacks. Taunt users in Aerodactyl, Gyarados, and Azelf will give Umbreon issues if he is without an attack. Gyarados also threatens to set up on Umbreon, making him that much more deadly.</p>
 
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