Sunflora (Update)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/sunflora

OK, now that you've seen the title, you are probably going to say something like: "Sunflora is outclassed by Exeggutor, Victreebel, Shiftry and just about any Chlorophyll abuser!" as well as "Pathetic speed, and it can't even learn Sleep Powder!" and many other things. Whilst it is true for most of the part, Sunflora has a set that make it useable, as well as useful moves such as Earth Power and as well as the ability Solar Power, which makes one set not outclassed by other Grass types.

[OVERVIEW]
- Talk about it's pathetic speed, being outclassed by other Chlorophyll abusers and whatnot.
- Also on how low that Defense is, as well as being unable to learn moves like Sleep Powder.
- However it has some saving graces such as Solar Power and Earth Power, and it's usefulness in Trick Room.

[SET]
Name: Trick Room
Move 1: Solarbeam
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Hidden Power [Ice]
Move 4: Giga Drain
Item: Life Orb
Ability: Solar Power
Nature: Quiet
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Sp Atk, 4 SpDef (If you know a better EV spread feel free to post it.)

[SET COMMENTS]
- This is the only thing Sunflora can do that isn't outclassed by other Grass types.
- In Trick Room and Sunny Day, this thing can bulldoze it's way past nearly everything that isn't a Chansey.
- With Life Orb and Solar Power, Sunflora reaches a jaw-dropping 661 Special Attack.
- Nothing is immune/resistant to Grass + Ground + Ice except Shedinja and Bronzong, the latter which is never seen in UU.
- Giga Drain is listed as the last move to restore HP lost from Life Orb and Solar Power, and it should be used against Pokemon that will be overkilled by Solarbeam, like Omastar.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
- Partners that can set up Trick Room and Sunny Day are absolutely needed.



[OPTIONAL CHANGES]
- A Sunnybeam set is available but other Pokemon like Victreebel, Exeggutor etc. outclass it because of higher speed.
- Leech Seed and Grasswhistle are available but not recommended.
- Encore is a so-so option, but with Sunflora's low defense it's not highly recommended.
- If you are crazy you can try a Swords Dance set but the only physical moves it has are Seed Bomb and Return. So don't think about it.

[TEAMMATES AND COUNTERS]
- Uxie can set up both Sunny Day and Trick Room, as well as U-turn to get Sunflora in, or it can use Memento to ensure that Sunflora and her teammates can set up safely. Uxie is also able to take on random priority attacks like Mach Punch and Ice Shard that trouble Sunflora to no end.
- Porygon2 also has access to both Trick Room and Sunny Day.
- Fire types like Blaziken and Camerupt. Make sure to not given any speed EVs and use a hindering nature and 0 IVs in Speed if you want them to abuse Trick Room as well.
- Other Trick Room sweepers with low speed. Aggron does well because he picks up the slack on the physical side. Water types are a no-no because the sun halves the power of their STAB attacks. Rhyperior appreciates Trick Room as well and the halving of damage from water attacks really help it.


- Chansey stops Sunflora cold.
- Specially Defensive Weezing can do the same if it can get in on a move that isn't Solarbeam, and reply back with a Fire move or Sludge Bomb.
- As ironic as it is, Golduck can switch in while Sunflora Solarbeams, and it will charge thanks to Cloud Nine negating weather, and Golduck can then use Protect to avoid damage, then KO Sunflora with Ice Beam.
- While technically not a counter, priority moves will end Sunflora really quickly since it will be losing 22.5% of it's health every turn, unless it can find something to Giga Drain on.

- A Sunnybeam set is available but other Pokemon like Victreebel, Exeggutor etc. outclass it because of higher speed.

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Just because something is outclassed doesn't mean it shouldn't be posted at all. The Sunny Day set already on the analysis isn't bad at all.

Arcticblast said:

Just because something is outclassed doesn't mean it shouldn't be posted at all.

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That doesn't seem to be the case in the Mantine update... there are people arguing Milotic can do what Mantine does better, and thus question the viability of it's sets. And why else is the Swift Swim set there removed? Because according to some people it is outclassed by Omastar, Gorebyss and practically every Swift Swimmer, that is why it is removed. Same case here on why I didn't put the SunnyBeamer. Besides, even with 252 Speed EVs and a beneficial nature in the sun, Sunflora can only hit 348 speed, and will not outspeed anything with a base speed of 110 and higher.

Lady Gaga said:

That doesn't seem to be the case in the Mantine update... there are people arguing Milotic can do what Mantine does better, and thus question the viability of it's sets. And why else is the Swift Swim set there removed? Because according to some people it is outclassed by Omastar, Gorebyss and practically every Swift Swimmer, that is why it is removed. Same case here on why I didn't put the SunnyBeamer. Besides, even with 252 Speed EVs and a beneficial nature in the sun, Sunflora can only hit 348 speed, and will not outspeed anything with a base speed of 110 and higher.

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Don't make fun of my update.

The Swift Swim set was removed because it sucked, not completely because it was outclassed (even though it pretty much WAS.). Mantine has Water Absorb and a neutrality to Grass, something very important in today's metagame. Milotic isn't outright better.

Seriously, the SunnyBeamer set works fine, since Sunflora gets Earth Power. Solar Power damages you every turn.

Arcticblast said:

Seriously, the SunnyBeamer set works fine, since Sunflora gets Earth Power. Solar Power damages you every turn.

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The SunnyBeamer would have worked fine if Sunflora had better speed, but Gamefreak decides to be mean to Sunflora and didn't change it's speed at all upon evolving, so Sunflora is at the mercy of anything with a base speed of 110 and above... and this doesn't count Choice Scarf users and priority moves. In the Trick Room set only priority moves are a concern. Yeah, Solar Power damages, which is why I said I put Giga Drain, to regain health against things Solarbeam will overkill, such as Water, Ground and Rock types.

How do you get TR AND Sun up easily?

Nothing is immune/resistant to Grass + Ground + Ice except Shedinja and Bronzong, the latter which is never seen in UU.

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bronzor.

also, I would think putting sunny day up in the last spot is a good idea, since otherwise it is almost impossible to get sunny day up and TR up at the same time.

Just so you know, here are a list of semi viable pokemon that can learn both: hynpo, grumpig, kecleon, Mr. Mime, Slowbro, exxegutor (clorophyll doesnt help TR though), porygon 2, xatu, slowking, gardevoir, claydol, dusclops, bronzor, chimeco, uxie, and mesprit.

Out of those, barely any can benifit from both, and you only have about 4 turns of sweeping anyways.

Sorry, but I can't see how this set is good. The fact that you need both Sunny Day and Trick Room up at the same time for it to work kills it as field effect turns are very precious and should be used concisely.

Additionally, this set is very selfish, as Sunflora is the only Pokemon at all (besides Tropius) that benifits from having both Sunny Day and Trick Room up at the same time, which means that if Sunflora goes, then many moveslots on your other Pokemon that contain Sunny Day are deadweight and useless. Since one of the reasons for all of the recent updates on old analysis is to make sure every Pokemon's moveset benefits its team as well as itself, this set just doesn't fit the bill.

calentaros said:

Sorry, but I can't see how this set is good. The fact that you need both Sunny Day and Trick Room up at the same time for it to work kills it as field effect turns are very precious and should be used concisely.

Additionally, this set is very selfish, as Sunflora is the only Pokemon at all (besides Tropius) that benifits from having both Sunny Day and Trick Room up at the same time, which means that if Sunflora goes, then many moveslots on your other Pokemon that contain Sunny Day are deadweight and useless. Since one of the reasons for all of the recent updates on old analysis is to make sure every Pokemon's moveset benefits its team as well as itself, this set just doesn't fit the bill.

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Not just Sunflora. Some other slow or average speed Fire types like Camerupt and Blaziken can function decently as well. Yes, you'll only have 3-4 turns of Sunflora's use, but considering it can bulldoze it's way past anything not named Chansey, it might be worth it.

calze6 said:

How do you get TR AND Sun up easily?

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To moderators: Excuse the double post, but I have to say something.

An example of a Pokemon that can set up both in Uxie with Heat Rock, first set up Sunny Day, then Trick Room. Uxie shouldn't have a problem setting up both with those high defenses. Then U-turn or Memento to get Sunflora in safely. There are a few other Pokemon that can also do it, Uxie is just one of them. Although admittedly, fast Taunt users screws up this strategy, but that can be said about anything that relies on setting up weather.

Lady Gaga said:

Not just Sunflora. Some other slow or average speed Fire types like Camerupt and Blaziken can function decently as well. Yes, you'll only have 3-4 turns of Sunflora's use, but considering it can bulldoze it's way past anything not named Chansey, it might be worth it.

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So you want to create a huge bulky water weakness in your Sunny Day Trick Room team by including a large portion of less than game breaking Fire-type sweepers in order to "possibly" be able to bulldoze the team?

Although I can possibly see this being used on a gimmick team, I cannot see anybody actually using it seriously due to the fact that it sounds pretty unreliable, doesn't fit in nearly at all in the current UU metagame, and the obvious fact that Sunny-Room Teams don't exist and are not viable.

EDIT:You don't need to double post to say something additional. Just edit your previous post.

EDIT 2: Additionally, as I looked at your damage calculations, I saw that this Sunflora misses out on some 2HKOs. This alone makes me highly doubt this set, because I wouldn't want to go to the trouble of setting up both Sunny Day and Trick Room and not OHKO everything (exaggeration, but you get the idea) .

calentaros said:

So you want to create a huge bulky water weakness in your Sunny Day Trick Room team by including a large portion of less than game breaking Fire-type sweepers in order to "possibly" be able to bulldoze the team?

Although I can possibly see this being used on a gimmick team, I cannot see anybody actually using it seriously due to the fact that it sounds pretty unreliable, doesn't fit in nearly at all in the current UU metagame, and the obvious fact that Sunny-Room Teams don't exist and are not viable.

EDIT:You don't need to double post to say something additional. Just edit your previous post.

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I wouldn't say that there will be a bulky water weakness with the Sun cutting the power of water moves by half, and Blaziken is pretty game breaking by being able to annihilate just about anything that isn't a bulky water with the right move, and the bulky water is easily KOed by Sunflora anyway. Admittedly sounds simple in theory, but much harder in practice, but it's not that Sunflora has much better options anyway.

EDIT: The only thing that Sunflora doesn't 2KO is Chansey, the omnipresent special wall. Sunflora can 2KO anything with the right move, and those are dedicated walls. Pokemon that aren't meant to be walls are going to meet a swift OHKO.

Lady Gaga said:

I wouldn't say that there will be a bulky water weakness with the Sun cutting the power of water moves by half, and Blaziken is pretty game breaking by being able to annihilate just about anything that isn't a bulky water with the right move, and the bulky water is easily KOed by Sunflora anyway. Admittedly sounds simple in theory, but much harder in practice, but it's not that Sunflora has much better options anyway.

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The sets on site are probably its most effective options. Yes they may not be game breaking, but they are as good as Sunflora is going to get without needing an insane amount of support. Besides, a Trick Room spread is already listed in the AC of the Solar Power set already onsite. If you are going to update the entire analysis, I suggest simply keeping the Solar Power set currently onsite and thats it, as it is Sunflora's most devastating option. The Sunnybeamer set is definitely ouclassed in UU, however is pretty much obligatory with Sunflora's high Sp.Atk stat coupled with Chloryphyl; although the SubSeed set is pretty much unusable IMO. Don't take my opinion too heavily though and change the OP, as I am not QC.

calentaros said:

The sets on site are probably its most effective options. Yes they may not be game breaking, but they are as good as Sunflora is going to get without needing an insane amount of support. Besides, a Trick Room spread is already listed in the AC of the Solar Power set already onsite. If you are going to update the entire analysis, I suggest simply keeping the Solar Power set currently onsite and thats it, as it is Sunflora's most devastating option. The Sunnybeamer set is definitely ouclassed in UU and the SubSeed set is pretty much unusable IMO. Don't take my opinion too heavily though and change the OP, as I am not QC.

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This is the Solar Power set, except with much more details and the addition of Earth Power to bash up Fire and Steel types. I wonder how the people who made the analysis possibly missed out such a great move on Sunflora.

P.S: Call me a moron, but what does "OP" and "AC" stand for? I know QC = Quality Control.

This is not the Solar Power set. The Solar Power set is the Choice Specs set that is currently onsite, which has better coverage than this set, and it is not solely effective in Trick Room or Sunny Day. And to change something in my previous post, I would like to say that in my opinion the Sunny Beamer should be included, due to the fact that it has good base special attack, as well as Chlorophyll and is pretty much obligatory on such a crappy Pokemon like Sunflora.

EDIT: The Specs set also reaches a higher Sp.Atk stat in Sunny Day.

EDIT 2: Oh, and OP means original post.

I think you should use 240 HP evs to minimize Solar Power damage. (did I do the math right?) Or 232 to lower Life Orb recoil as well.

This is a Sun set without Hidden Power Fire? What.

Hidden Power Fire is like STAB under the Sun, it gets a 1.5x boost and still hits Grass types super-effectively, definitely hitting harder than HP Ice.

You lose coverage against Altaria, which is not really an offensive threat, and Moltres though. But you still 2HKO Moltres with Stealth Rock down... So Hidden Power Fire definitely deserves the slot over Ice.

I'm not sure about the SunnyBeamer set... it's really outclassed by everything due to its poor Speed. Also I think Sunflora does the Sun+TR set better anyway, so it's not as if we're leaving the best Sunflora can do out. We must strike a balance between the best sets and the outclassed ones. If the best set is outclassed, perhaps we can leave it on. But the second best set?

You said Sunflora outspeeds everything but base 110's under the sun right?

Well here are the Pokemon that will be outspeeding her under the sun:

Alakazam = problem

Ambipom = will just Fake Out you anyway

Dugtrio = (can he even KO with Earthquake/Stone Edge?) not a problem

Sceptile = only a problem if it's carrying HP Ice or Fire

Swellow = problem

Electrode = will set up Rain Dance but you Earth Power his ass

Espeon = problem

Floatzel = may carry Ice Punch, but otherwise not a problem

Jumpluff = lol, will outspeed you anyway, and may Encore you, but that's it

Persian = same as Ambipom

Purugly = lol, same as Persian

Tauros = problem

Out of these, there are only a few really problematic Pokemon, and most teams usually only have 1-2 each. Yes, there's still priority, but Sunflora still outspeeds some cool shit like Manectric and Mismagius. I think a Sunnybeamer set still needs to be on here.

Why not just advertise the Solar Power set on a paralysis team? Lots of Weather set-uppers get Thunder Wave, and Grass types get Stun Spore (can paralyze Grounds which is a plus). This also allows you to have slow Fire types on your team. This is a great alternative to having Trick Room team.

Sunny Day Paralysis: Have Teammates like Rhyperior, and Camerupt whom benefit from the Water weakness reduction in the Sun, while resisting Fire, Flying, Poison, and Rock [Aids Fire types), not to mention it hits Ice, Flying, Bug, and Fire types for supper effective damage. (And Megahorns Grass types).

Teammates like Uxie, Mespirit, Rhyperior, Flash Fire Houndoom, Sunflora, Registeel.

The main problem that sunflora faces is not really its speed (as Oglemi noted it still outspeeds what it needs to; not outspeeding alakazam is unfortunate though) but its competition with Exeggutor. When you compare the two, you see that Sunflora really has very few thngs over exeggutor - it misses out on sleep powder, explosion, STAB Psychic (for Venusaur really), idiotically high SpA, pretty good attack (meaning ridiculously powerful explosion), and even TR for the occasional gimmick set. What does Sunflora get? Suicidal Solar Power (I.E. you die in like 5 turns from LO and SP recoil) and Earth Power set it apart attacking-wise but really aren't too special; it also gets Encore (which it is far, far too slow to use) and endeavor (which is an allusion to the difficulty in using sunflora), but again, they really aren't that special.


TL;DR: Sunflora is weaker than and has a poorer movepool than Exeggutor, who is far better as a SD sweeper. It evolves from the weakest pokemon in existence and is arguably still quite weak after evolution. It's really one of those pokemon that's just... too outclassed.

Sorry if I come off as harsh, lol

are you still doing this

I got permission from Lady Gaga to update Sunflora instead, I'll make a new thread, thanks for the comments and I'll take them into consideration. This can be closed.

Moving