Froslass (Spiker)

I have a set for Froslass. This set already existed, but I've modified it slightly.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/froslass



Spinblocker
Move 1: Ice Beam/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power (Fire)
Move 2:Spikes
Move 3: Taunt
Move 4: Pain Split/Destiny Bond
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
Evs: 160 HP / 108 Def / 240 Spe

Why This Set Deserves to Be On-Site:
- It uses Froslass' most noticeable yet underused trait of being a Spiker that blocks Rapid Spin
- Taunts defensive Pokemon and can weather their attacks while Spiking, so it lays a beat-down on stall teams

Additional Comments:
- Brightpowder and Blizzard can work on Hail teams
- Substitute or Protect can be used over Taunt/Pain Split, but I would never recommend it as both are really important to the set
- You can use max Speed to tie with Gengar. The spread above allows you out-speed all Infernape.

Teammates and Counters:
- Other hazard set-up Pokemon, like Tentacruel and Bronzong
- Duel Screeners, like the aforementioned Bronzong
- Abomasnow for setting up Hail to abuse Snow Cloak
- Sweepers to take advantage of the Spikes, like DDtar and Lucario
- Starmie KOs with it's powerful attacks
- Forretress with enough Attack EVs can hurt with Gyro Ball
- Pursuit trappers in general

Well, uh, first of all. You looked like you did make an effort to make these sets, but this is in a slightly incorrect format. Look at another C&C thread for reference. (i.e. Why this set should be on-site blah blah blah). Also, Speed=Spe. Not SpD. Unless you're going that route.

And while you say these sets might be good in theory, did you actually test it against Standard teams? Pokemon Online or ShoddyBattle-wise? Sets have to actually work or at least serve some purpose against Standard teams "in real life", and most of the time, C&C won't really approve of "theorymons".

On the Offensive Spiker, there are WAAAAY to many slashes in the last slot. If it's gonna be that way, AC at best. In fact, if these sets are going to be too similar to the sets already on site, AC all the way.

Also: Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump: 100.7% - 118.9%

Nope, you're not outspeeding or beating Starmie anytime soon. It has already done its job of eliminating Spin-Blockers, and will Rapid Spin and slower Pokemon if you do switch it in. It's the most common Starmie in the metagame today, and very rarely will people run the Pure Rapid Spinner (dead weight against most offensive teams). If you run Modest, you're in bigger trouble. Why suggest Modest if you're essentially doing Forretress in for high-damage anyways? Why run Modest at all if Infernape and Jirachi's gonna beat you to the punch?

I'm not 100% sure if Froslass learns Sleep Talk, but if it does, I'd recommend that for some extra utility.

Click to expand...

Homework time: Yes it does. But dear Lord, WHY?! whywhywhy?! Sleep Talk, of all things? I'd rather actually run STAB Ice Beam or Taunt if I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel with that many slashes...

All I'm gonna say for the Defensive Spinblocker is: Inferior EV spread with no apparent purpose.

This way is fine for now. Technically it can "count" as a skeleton with a little meat on it. It doesn't have to be fully dressed up until it hits the Analysis subforum.

Can you please make the text not eye-gougingly cyan, please? I'd rather not read a set that I have to squint at to read.

I pretty much copy-and-pasted this from the Creative Moveset thread, so I apologize for the format. I assumed it was the same, but you know what they say about assumptions. :|} I'll be fixing it.

I've tested the defensive spread extensively. It works very well against stall-teams, as their attacks generally aren't powerful enough to damage Froslass too much. You also don't try to "wall" with it, or stay in too long at a time. It's more of a pivot. I.e, someone sends out Forretress on your CB Tyrannitar locked onto Pursuit. You have two layers of Toxic Spikes down and SR up. They've done nothing to you yet. Predicting the Rapid Spin, you switch to Froslass and block it. Then you Taunt to prevent their Toxic Spikes. You Spike as they attack. If they have Gyro Ball on a Physical Forretress, you just switch out to a Pokemon with a fire move or something to kill them. Payback means you can stay in and Pain Split and Spike until you've set it all up. Then you just switch to something to kill it.

OR, in the case of Starmie, you block the spin and go to something like ScarfTar or CB Scizor as they attack. I wouldn't do Tyrannitar, since he takes a lot from Hydro Pump, but whatever you're packing to counter Starmie should do fine, especially a nice Pursuit-er.

The offensive one I took down. It does suck. I only made it for a friend irl who bugged me to make a more offensive set for Froslass, then he used it on WiFi and said it worked fine. Moral of the story: Don't trust WiFi idiots.

Also, I changed the font. Just for you, SDS.

EDIT: 'Twould seem someone else edited the font for you. The reason for editing is "Merry Christmas SDS". Huh.

I think destiny bond would be a good slash for painsplit, it works decently well with taunt, and it lets you maybe buy an extra layer of spikes if they predict it. I also think an ev spread that outspeeds max speed base 90s should be looked into, but that may limit push froslass meager defenses too much.

While, I fully support defensive EVs, taking away from Frosslass' speed is awful. Timid, 160 HP / 96 Def / 252 Spe is the spread I've been using for over two years. 321 HP is a Leftovers number, and 200 physical defense. This spread is never 2HKOed by anything commonly found on a stall team like Pert, Hippo, and Vaporeon (I think).

Using bold sets without speed takes away from fast Taunt and Destiny Bond.

Does this set replace the current Froslass spiking sets? If so, I would have to agree with RL that removing speed is a pretty bad idea, as you want to be able to Taunt slower things (CM Jirachi, Suicune), as well as potentially revenge things with Destiny Bond (which doesn't have a slash...why??) before they can hit you.

The EV changes will be applied. Thanks for the tips, and I'll slash Destiny Bond. Too bad Lass doesn't get Explosion...

EDIT: I cannot FATHOM why I didn't slash DB. Taunt + Bond is soooo nasty. I'll also be running some calcs to see just how much speed you need to out-speed certain threats, like base-100s. Then I'll run the minimum amount, since Frosloss does like the extra physical bulk.

Bold? Nahhhh, change it to Timid. Froslass is getting nothing from that extra bulk, while with Bold you are unable to outspeed Infernape, Jirachi, tie with Gengar, etc.

I have used a spiking Froslass to great effect with a set of Substitute, Destiny Bond, Spikes, Ice Beam/Taunt. Bring it in on something it can force to switch, like Gliscor or Dragonite, Sub on the switch, and Spike from there.

Timid, Sir. Outspeeding and D-Bonding on Infernape is great, especially since your unaffected by Vacuum Wave. Tying Gengar is cool too!

The thing I have about Substitute is that there's already a set for it to do that kind of thing. It works best on a Hail team, which is what it says on the existing analysis. This set is intended to Spike against more defensive teams, and as such is equipped with Taunt and Pain Split for that purpose. Having Hail is always awesome, but unlike the other Froslass set, this one doesn't mind the lack of Hail, whereas the Sub set sorely misses it.

I changed the nature, and I'm doing calcs for just how fast you need to be to beat Infernape as I type.

Done. 240 Speed with a Timid nature. It doesn't make too much of a difference in terms of damage, but I'm OCD in that I don't use surplus EVs. I did mention max speed to tie with Gengar though.

RaikouLover said:

While, I fully support defensive EVs, taking away from Frosslass' speed is awful. Timid, 160 HP / 96 Def / 252 Spe is the spread I've been using for over two years. 321 HP is a Leftovers number, and 200 physical defense. This spread is never 2HKOed by anything commonly found on a stall team like Pert, Hippo, and Vaporeon (I think).

Using bold sets without speed takes away from fast Taunt and Destiny Bond.

Click to expand...

I would change the EV Spread in the OP to this Spread RL posted. While ive never used / seen Bulkylass in OU, i used it in UU when it was in the tier so it know it works on at least some level. This set seems good but ill test it before making a decision

108 is actually the Defense EV number. Otherwise you have too many EVs.

What makes this different from the 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe spread already mentioned in AC for the Spiker set along with Leftovers? It doesn't need an entire separate set for something that has 3/4, potentially 4/4 of the same moves as a set already on site.

I approve of an AC mention, nothing else. What's in the OP is purely a Froslass with an EV change when compared to the one that's onsite, and as I'm sure you understand, this doesn't make the set warrant its own place apart.

I'm going to have to agree with Setsuna on this, there's nothing wrong with the set you posted, just no need for an entire spot on analysis.

So be it.