Blaziken

[manav95]

Blaziken gets Speed Boost this gen and he is looking to be a top threat. However, it is still to be known what this effect will have on Blazkien's viability. Although it looks like Infernape is now outclassed severely. Blaziken already was a top threat in UU and he may have a shot at OU.

Swords Dance

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Adamant/Jolly
Speed Boost
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick
- Stone Edge

Damage Calcs
-Hi Jump Kick vs. Walls; all calcs assume +2.

vs. 404/361 Suicune: (92.82% - 109.41%) OHKO with rocks.
vs. 404/306 Swampert: (109.16% - 128.71%) OHKO.
vs. 394/282 +1 Milotic: (81.47% - 95.94%) 53.85% chance of OHKO with rocks.
vs. 448/240 Vaporeon: (125.45% - 147.99%) OHKO.
vs. 420/368 Hippowdon: (87.14% - 102.86%) 53.85% chance of OHKO with rocks.
vs. 404/328 Manaphy: (101.73% - 119.80%) OHKO.
vs. 324/295 Starmie [never seen]: (70.68% - 83.33%)
vs. 384/372 Donphan: (94.79% - 111.72%)
vs. 338/364 Bronzong: (110.06% - 129.59%)

-Hi Jump Kick vs. potential 5th gen walls, all calcs assume +2

vs. 352/401 Abagoora [Water/Rock turtle]: (191.48% - 225.57%)
vs. 374/394 Gigaiasu: (183.42% - 216.58%)
vs. 386/392 Kobaruon: (178.76% - 210.36%)
vs. 344/383 Iwaparesu [Bug/Rock hermit crab?]: (102.91% - 121.22%)

-Fire Blast vs. 4th gen walls

vs. 404/328 Celebi: (66.83% - 79.21%)
vs. 334/262 Skarmory: (102.40% - 120.96%)
vs. Forretress: OHKO
vs. 338/364 Bronzong: (72.78% - 85.80%)
vs. 354/186 Gliscor: (67.80% - 79.94%)

-Fire Blast vs. potential 5th gen walls

vs. 320/246 Desukan: (56.56% - 66.88%)
vs. Nattorel: OHKO

I'm not even going to continue. The great thing is that the few things that can survive Hi Jump Kick...are highly Susceptible to Fire Blast in exchange. And with Steels annihilated by Hi Jump Kick as is, there may not even be a need for Fire Blast, freeing up a slot for Shadow Claw/Night Slash for ghosts.

-+2 Shadow Claw vs:

vs. 320/427 Desukan: (71.25% - 84.38%)
vs. 404/262 Burunkeru [Water/ghost]: (91.58% - 107.92%)
vs. 382/284 Goruggo: (89.53% - 105.76%)
vs. 404/328 Celebi: (73.27% - 86.63%)

MixKen 2011

Originally Posted by Fat Lee

Yeah, not too keen on the Swords Dance set. If today's OU metagame is anything to go by he'd be promptly raped by priority and the horde of super-fast scarfers (which are likely to be even more common in BW with this new DD'er and Swift Swimmers galore). I reckon Lucario would still be better in that role thanks to his resistances and Extremespeed.

My first thought was the potential of a quick wall-breaker/cleaner, like HeySup proposed earlier. Obviously theorymonning out of my ass here because I don't know a thing about the BW metagame but something like...

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Rash
60 Atk / 252 SpA / 196 Spe

- Fire Blast
- Hi Jump Kick
- Hidden Power Grass / Electric
- Stone Edge

Look familiar? Yeah, it's basically HeySup's MixKen with Speed Boost alleviating the need for Vacuum Wave. The idea would be to come in on something you threaten and use one of your high-powered STAB moves on the switch. If the opponent goes to a slow, bulky Pokemon then your STAB attacks, even resisted are likely gonna sting enough for you to follow up with one of your other moves for a KO. If the go for a fast Pokemon who resists your attacks (eg. Starmie), then Speed Boost activates and allows you to outrun him for a KO on the next turn.

Fire Blast + Hidden Power vs 252/0 Slowbro = 96.7% minimum
HJK + HJK vs 252/252+ Vaporeon = 94.4% minimum
Hidden Power Grass vs 252/0 Swampert = 105.94% minimum
HJK + Hidden Power vs 252/252 Def+ Suicune = 78.46% minimum
Fire Blast + -1 Stone Edge vs 252/0 Gyarados = 78.68% minimum

So that's 5 of the toughest bulky waters on the game all getting obliterated on the switch in unboosted. And no, this doesn't require telepathic prediction skills, you're simply leading with a STAB move everytime.

As impressive as those calculations are, they don't really take advantage of Speed Boost as Blaziken already outruns those 5 Pokemon. Offensive teams might try to get the jump on 'Ken by going to their Salamence or the Garchomp etc. Sorry pal, not gonna work.

-Fire Blast + -1 Stone Edge vs 4/0 Salamence = 100.61% minimum
HJK + HJK vs 4/0 Garchomp = 120.34% minimum
HJK + Hidden Power vs 160/0 Starmie = 115.94% minimum

This is a very difficult set to switch into. I'm struggling to think of a safe switch in. Slowking and Tentacruel perhaps (although they're taking heavy damage from two HJK's)? The EVs outrun Jolly Tyranitar before a boost and outspeed max Spe Starmie/Azelf/Raikou after a boost. You can tweak the Spe to suit your designs but I wanted to squeeze enough Atk EVs in to get the most out of Blaziken's new toy, Hi Jump Kick.

Perhaps the most appealing aspect of this set is the fact that it brings two roles to any team. It can function as a high powered wall-breaker against stall teams or as a powerful late game cleaner vs balanced or offensive teams.

[IcyMan28]

Haha, this is basically my post from the other thread with a bit added onto the end. I'm thinking you should quote my part, yes?

Honestly, I see little need for HP Ice; the dragons are easily decimated by merely switching in.

Salamence/Altaria dies to +1/+2 Stone Edge.
Flygon/Garchomp/Ononokusu/Sazando/Kingdra/Kurimigan die to Hi Jump Kick.

End of story. Obviously I have no knowledge of the future metagame, but I can say that with a simple set of SD/HJK/Fire Blast/Stone Edge, Blaziken will be a potent threat.

[Epic Cherubi]

Is Swords Dance still a TM? If not we do not know if it will be able to rend the metagame a new one as you say.

Blaziken also gets Flare Blitz as a level up move to punish bulky Ghosts, Gliscor, Celebi and others.

The third move might as well be Protect since Tentacruel and Gyarados are both OHKOed by +2 (or +1 for Gyarados) High Jump Kick. Shadow Claw works to pick off Flash Fire Candle thing.

I don't think the dragons will be taking a High Jump Kick to the face well, as after intimidate and rocks Salamence is OHKOed by High Jump Kick (77.6% - 91.5%). I think he is the bulkiest dragon, so Dragonite should share the same fate.

[IcyMan28]

Originally Posted by Fat Epic Cherubi

Is Swords Dance still a TM? If not we do not know if it will be able to rend the metagame a new one as you say.

Blaziken also gets Flare Blitz as a level up move to punish bulky Ghosts, Gliscor, Celebi and others.

The last move could go to Thunder Punch to fry Tentacruel and Gyarados. I don't think the dragons will be taking a High Jump Kick to the face well, even after intimidate Salamence is OHKOed. I think he is the bulkiest dragon.

It is, and Blaziken learns it. I'd say that Tentacruel is an issue, but:

372 Atk +2 LO HJK vs. 364/251 Tentacruel: (73.63% - 86.81%)

it isn't liking HJK at all, and Stone Edge has a chance to OHKO. Flare Blitz is a possibility, but the recoil is off-putting...perhaps Blaze Kick?

EDIT: That's max/max Bold Tenta, btw.

[SigmaEpsilon]

I believe that Speed Boost Blaziken will be dominant, providing that there is a way to RNG IVs.

Scratch that, Even with imperfect IVs Blaze is still a huge threat.

...
Dear god-
This is like Bullet Punch Scizor all over again, isn't it?
Give a moderately respectable, fairly average Pokemon one change and BOOM everyone and their grandma wants it.
...
Myself included. I always thought Blaziken deserved better.

Now the question is, can we breed Dream World Abilities? If so...
.... *Shudders*
I feel the rush already!

Edit @IcyMan28:
BLAZE KICK FTW
I loved that move. Flaming feet everywhere.

[Epic Cherubi]

I'm sure Blaze Kick is an option. It can't OHKO some of the super bulky Ghosts like Dusknoir and probably not that Ghost / Water Jellyfish.

[GLS]

Keep in mind it takes a fair amount of time for Blaziken to set up. He's not at +2 attack and speed until the third turn he is out. Plenty of time to get a scarfed Timid Starmie in for the OHKO. He also is weak to Aqua Jet which thankfully Dragonite, who resists both his stabs, now gets.

Speed Boost Blaziken is going to be a great Pokemon, but I see a lot of people anointing him king way too early.

[IcyMan28]

+2 Speed isn't too necessary, IMO. Like Infernape, Blaziken will best be utilized late game. Switch in on Nattorei/something that can't harm you, SD on the switch, nab your speed boost, and outspeed everything that is +Speed base 120 and below with freakishly powerful attacks. Priority is an issue as usual, but Blaze resists a few of them (Bullet Punch and Sucker Punch, notably).

[SigmaEpsilon]

Originally Posted by Fat GLS

He also is weak to Aqua Jet which thankfully Dragonite, who resists both his stabs, now gets.

Man. Gotta pay more attention to things like that. Didn't even KNOW.

Wait. Where are people finding things like that...?

I smell a new thread to look at soon!

[Torchic]

Yeah, see my ID you'll see I really love Blaziken.
Actually Hi jump kick is slightly better than Close Combat, great 130 base power.
Swords Dance is TM 75 in BW, so Blaziken can get it.
I think Stone Edge is a option.

[Universal Berry]

Do not forget that HJK is kinda predictable and a crash into a random ghost could be EXTREMELY devastating.

[DR809]

Blaziken is going to replace Infernape and be a very dominant pokemon imo. If it can get a physical grass move this thing will be nearly unstoppable o.O

[Arikado]

Wait, Blaziken can learn Swords Dance now ?

[NeoSeth]

Close Combat is far safer than Hi Jump Kick, especially for something as frail as Blaziken. I'd run that, since the extra 10 base power isn't all that appealing.

[manav95]

OK I updated this with your suggestions. Epic Cherubi- Dragonite is bulkier than Mence, otherwise why was it still OU when Mence was around. Also Blaziken knows Swords Dance and TPunch from Gen 4 but it appears it learns Kick as level up only in Gen 5.
Swords Dance Ken
Speed Boost
Life Orb
EVs 252 Attack 252 Speed 4 HP
Swords Dance
Shadow Claw/Thunderpunch/SE
Blaze Kick
HJK
This is meant to sweep without relying on those recoil moves. You switch Blaziken in on some wall that hates it and SD on the way out. Kick and HJK are to rip your enemies to shreds. The fourth move chooses who walls you. Shadow Claw deals with ghosts like Shandera but Tentacruel and Dragonite wall you, TP kills Cruel but ghosts and Nite wall you, and SE means ghosts wall you. Pick one and plan your team to lure the enemy counters to Blaziken out.

[IcyMan28]

Swords Dance is a current TM that Blaziken learns, while Hi Jump Kick can be retrieved on all Blaziken via Heart Scale, so there are no compatability issues.

Close Combat is far safer than Hi Jump Kick, especially for something as frail as Blaziken. I'd run that, since the extra 10 base power isn't all that appealing.

Close Combat's defense drops could prove annoying for Blaziken, since Speed Boost makes priority moves all the more important in taking it down. It will not appreciate taking 40% from Bullet Punch after a CC. Regardless...Blaziken does not learn Close Combat, so the point is moot.

Wait, Blaziken can learn Swords Dance now ?

Yes, and has been able to since Gen 4.

[Epic Cherubi]

Originally Posted by Fat manav95

OK I updated this with your suggestions. Epic Cherubi- Dragonite is bulkier than Mence, otherwise why was it still OU when Mence was around. Also Blaziken knows Swords Dance and TPunch from Gen 4 but it appears it learns Kick as level up only in Gen 5.
Swords Dance Ken
Speed Boost
Life Orb
EVs 252 Attack 252 Speed 4 HP
Swords Dance
Shadow Claw/Thunderpunch/SE
Blaze Kick
HJK
This is meant to sweep without relying on those recoil moves. You switch Blaziken in on some wall that hates it and SD on the way out. Kick and HJK are to rip your enemies to shreds. The fourth move chooses who walls you. Shadow Claw deals with ghosts like Shandera but Tentacruel and Dragonite wall you, TP kills Cruel but ghosts and Nite wall you, and SE means ghosts wall you. Pick one and plan your team to lure the enemy counters to Blaziken out.

Salamence gets intimidate, thus it takes physical hits better than Dragonite. Both pokes are OHKOed after rocks.

Blaziken needs a way to get Swords Dance this generation as it can't get it from gen 4 AND have Speed boost at the same time.

[Torchic]

Originally Posted by Fat Epic Cherubi

Salamence gets intimidate, thus it takes physical hits better than Dragonite. Both pokes are OHKOed after rocks.

Blaziken needs a way to get Swords Dance this generation as it can't get it from gen 4 AND have Speed boost at the same time.

SD is TM 75 in BW.

[Max_LKC]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

Flygon/Garchomp/Ononokusu/Sazando/Kingdra/Kurimigan die to Hi Jump Kick.

End of story. Obviously I have no knowledge of the future metagame, but I can say that with a simple set of SD/HJK/Fire Blast/Stone Edge, Blaziken will be a potent threat.

You fail to outspeed scarfgon with only +1 speed boost and without +2 from SD you wont OHKO it scarfgon just have to switch in on the turn you're in and OHKO you back with EQ crawdaunt now gets adaptability unless your willing to waste a move slot for a vacuum wave on an SD set you're going to get OHKO by aqua jet.

[greg3064]

Stone Edge is might be the best coverage move, since it DOES hit Ghost/Fire for SE, as well as all the other Flying-types that resist Fire. And I'm pretty sure Ghost/Water won't take it since it doesn't have too high base def. Main issue is accuracy, but you're already gambling with HJK and possibly Blaze Kick.

I may just use Fire Punch. I've always used it with SD Infernape and Blaziken is more powerful. New walls either can't take HJK or Fire in general.

Doryuuzu can revenge it in Sand Storm if it's only at +2. Not a good switch-in, though, since it won't take anything Fire/Fighting. In that case an important teammate would be Drought Ninetales (assuming it's in OU) to keep Sand away (and power up Fire move of choice) while a counter would of course be Politoed (lure a Fire attack [with something that Fighting wouldn't be considered against] and switch to Politoed, who could probably survive NVE w/ Rain up).

Blaziken is beautiful.

Originally Posted by Fat Max_LKC

You fail to outspeed scarfgon with only +1 speed boost and without +2 from SD you wont OHKO it scarfgon just have to switch in on the turn you're in and OHKO you back with EQ crawdaunt now gets adaptability unless your willing to waste a move slot for a vacuum wave on an SD set you're going to get OHKO by aqua jet.

Yes, ScarfGon will be able to force it out at +1, but that's all. Dragonite and Crawdaunt are big because they can check it when it has more boosts (also when your opponent is less inclined to switch out, which may or may not be to their advantage). Certainly not all Dragonite and Crawdaunt will be running Aqua Jet, but they can bluff it and attempt a forced switch.

A neat set could be a lure with Sub + HP Ice + Focus Blast + Fire Blast. Take it in a different direction but eliminates the SD sets counters in Flygon, Dragonite, Crawdaunt.

[Brongaa]

Max-LKC, you obviously don't switch in on Flygon. By the time flygon switches in, you already have at least +2 speed boost, maybe more.

[Max_LKC]

Originally Posted by Fat Brongaa

Max-LKC, you obviously don't switch in on Flygon. By the time flygon switches in, you already have at least +2 speed boost, maybe more.

k lets take this for an example: foe's dragonite fainted foe send out blaziken(no speed boost) user switch out weavile and send out flygon , blaziken uses Sword dance, blaziken's speed boost raises it speed(+1)

Another example: foe switches in blaziken, Scizor use U-turn, User switches in flygon, Blaziken speed boost raises it speed(+1)

Third example:foe switches in blaziken, blaziken get hurts by rocks, user's skarmory use spike, Blaziken speed boost raises it's speed, Blaziken uses blaze kick/fire punch/fire blast( what else would you do? get whirlwind and start over again?) Skarm fainted Blaziken speed boost raises its speed(+2) User switch in Flygon, Blaziken out speeds it wow but without SD Hi Jump Kick wont be able to OHKO flygon and flygon survives OHKO back with EQ(if you want to switch switch then, next time your LO blaziken switches in it will be 12% from SR and another 12% from spikes + the 20% damage you just taken from LO and 12% from SR =48% Hp left, with low defenses you cant switch in to any attack you will die and with only 58% health you have to attack cant SD which result in failing to Ko the opponent and if you're in bad luck HJkick misses and you die).

get what I mean? I admit it is tough to counter but don't get over hyped about it, an as for the third example if your smart you won't even be switching in flygon on a non SD blaziken something Bulkier such as blastoise or swampert is more than enough

[IcyMan28]

Originally Posted by Fat Max_LKC

You fail to outspeed scarfgon with only +1 speed boost and without +2 from SD you wont OHKO it scarfgon just have to switch in on the turn you're in and OHKO you back with EQ crawdaunt now gets adaptability unless your willing to waste a move slot for a vacuum wave on an SD set you're going to get OHKO by aqua jet.

Maybe so, but Flygon is having to revenge it immediately otherwise it dies. Also, think of the scenario this way:

Nattorei has just switched into your Suicune.

Player1 withdrew Suicune!
Player1 sent out Blaziken!
Nattorei used Spikes!
Speed Boost raised Blaziken's speed! (it is now at +1)

Player2 withdrew Nattorei!
Player2 sent out ScarfGon!
Blaziken used Swords Dance!
Speed Boost raised Blaziken's speed (+2/+2)


Basically what I just illustrated is...if Blaziken forces something out, your revenger has to be able to either take a +2 hit and retaliate, or outspeed Ken at +2. With the EV spread I provided...that means +Speed base 121 with a Scarf or higher.

Blindly switching Blaziken in is a horrible idea, as it is easily revengable with no speed/protection.

Yes, ScarfGon will be able to force it out at +1, but that's all. Dragonite and Crawdaunt are big because they can check it when it has more boosts (also when your opponent is less inclined to switch out, which may or may not be to their advantage). Certainly not all Dragonite and Crawdaunt will be running Aqua Jet, but they can bluff it and attempt a forced switch.

A neat set could be a lure with Sub + HP Ice + Focus Blast + Fire Blast. Take it in a different direction but eliminates the SD sets counters in Flygon, Dragonite, Crawdaunt.

This. I don't expect Crawdaunt to be big at all, maybe Azumarill (and Dragonite will run Extremespeed > Aqua Jet, but that point is irrelevant here).

What I really want to highlight is the latter point. Switching in your revenger expecting SDKen could horribly backfire should you switch into the following:

Blaziken@Target Mark/Aiming Mark
Rash; EVs

Fire Blast
Substitute
Focus Punch
Hidden Power Electric

Stare in horror as your switchin is decimated. Shandaraa attempting to revenge is Focus Punched into oblivion while Blaze nets +2 speed; bulky waters are electrocuted by HP Electric (including Swampert, thanks to the aiming mark). And when all is said and done, Fire Blast cleans. And before crying that Infernape outclasses the set, note that the lack of boosting moves here make Blaziken's naturally higher offenses much more threatening, not to mention Speed Boost. Plot/SD Ape is too slow and frail to be attempting a sweep.

Blaziken is no less versatile than it has been since Ruby and Sapphire.

Third example:foe switches in blaziken, blaziken get hurts by rocks, user's skarmory use spike, Blaziken speed boost raises it's speed, Blaziken uses blaze kick/fire punch/fire blast( what else would you do? get whirlwind and start over again?) Skarm fainted Blaziken speed boost raises its speed(+2) User switch in Flygon, Blaziken out speeds it wow but without SD Hi Jump Kick wont be able to OHKO flygon and flygon survives OHKO back with EQ(if you want to switch switch then, next time your LO blaziken switches in it will be 12% from SR and another 12% from spikes + the 10% damage you just taken from LO and 12% from SR =58% Hp left, with low defenses you cant switch in to any attack you will die and with only 58% health you have to attack cant SD which result in failing to Ko the opponent and if you're in bad luck HJkick misses and you die).

This is one of those situations where you would SD, predicting the switch. If your opponent really wants to sac Skarm when you have a dragon/Doryuuzu waiting in the wings, that is their choice. I also think that you are seriously underestimating the power of Blaziken:

372 Atk LO HJK vs. 302/196 Def Flygon: (114.24% - 134.44%)

A solid OHKO. And even if it weren't, Blaziken has nothing to lose from switching. It didn't waste a set-up; it killed Skarmory.

[Heysup]

Why not use Protect + 3 Attacks and Life Orb. You could get the automatic +1 or +2 if you force something out. Probably one of the best cleaners late game in gen 5.

[IcyMan28]

Originally Posted by Fat Heysup

Why not use Protect + 3 Attacks and Life Orb. You could get the automatic +1 or +2 if you force something out. Probably one of the best cleaners late game in gen 5.

If you're going to force something out, I think you might as well take the opportunity to SD or set up a Sub, no? Protect would allow you to get to +3...but that's overkill haha.