Milotic (Specially Defensive)

No specially defensive sets on site.......? Been using this set for quiet a long time now and was surprised not to see a single similar spread/set on site.


[QC CHECK= 2/2]
[GC CHECK= 2/2]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/milotic






[SET]
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Surf
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass / Haze
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Marvel Scale
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 56 SpD / 8 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is focused to make great use of Milotic's special bulk, giving it the role of Toxic staller or Hazer. Surf gives Milotic a reliable STAB move and allows Milotic to do a significant amount of damage to those that don't resist it, thanks to Milotic's decent Special Attack stat. Toxic allows Milotic to inflict status on fellow bulky Water-types who might otherwise be troublesome for the team and forces offensive teams to keep switching out, thereby racking up passive damage. In the third slot, any of the three listed moves are effective depending on Milotic's teammates. For example, a team lacking a Hazer/Phazer and no reliable way to get rid of bulky set up sweepers will certainly benefit from Haze on Milotic. Ice Beam can prove useful if your team has problems with Grass-types such as Venusaur and Sceptile; with the correct prediction Milotic can inflict great damage to the opponent's Grass-type pokemon. Ice Beam can also be used to pick off weakened sweepers that are immune to or resist Surf, such as Toxicroak and Ludicolo. Hidden Power Grass can be used if you like to get rid of annoying entry hazard setup Pokemon such as the Rock/Water type brothers, Omastar and Kabutops, though it is worth noting that this move will be more effective on a more offensive Milotic spread.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Milotic can definitely benefit from the use of Hidden Power Psychic to hit Toxicroak and it's newly introduced cousin Heracross, who could prove dangerous if it sets up on Milotic's switch and you lack necessary counters. Although it seems quite unnecessary, Hypnosis may be used instead of Haze to give Milotic double status, automatically hindering 1/3 of the opponent's team. Mirror Coat can come in extremely handy at times, especially in late-game scenarios where the last Pokemon can threaten to sweep your team. Milotic can take almost any unboosted super effective special attack and use Mirror Coat for a guaranteed OHKO. Mirror Coat coupled with Toxic puts the opponent's Pokemon on a timer, forcing it to either switch or attack, so Haze is not necessarily needed.</p>

<p>Milotic can be used as an effective Toxic staller or Phazer due to its sheer natural bulk. This set's primary focus is to allow Milotic to Toxic stall other bulky Pokemon such as Milotic, Blastoise, Slowbro, Slowking and even Lanturn. Combined with Haze Milotic can easily win stall wars against other tanks that don't have access to Toxic, as well as defeating many of the common UU sweepers such as Dragon Dance Feraligatr, Bulk Up Hitmontop and Dragon Dance Altaria. Milotic's great defenses on both sides allow it to take all sorts of hits, especially from notorious special sweepers.</p>

<p>Milotic enjoys having bulky Grass-type Pokemon on its team, such as Venusaur and Tangrowth, who can absorb almost all the attacks that threaten Milotic. Weezing and Donphan are great allies as they can come in on hard hitting physical sweepers such as Rhyperior and Aggron and hit back with Will-O-Wisp and Earthquake respectively.</p>

<p> Any bulky Pokemon that has recovery as well as status healing moves such as Rest/Aromatherapy/Heal Bell can easily take anything Milotic throws at them. Prime examples of these Pokemon are the fairy twins, Chansey and Clefable. Venusaur can deal with Milotic but should try to avoid switching into an Ice Beam. Tangrowth and Leafeon can also dominate provided Milotic lacks Ice Beam. Rest + Sleep Talk variants of Milotic and Blastoise can stall out this set.</p>
 

symphonyx64

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You may want to put the name of the Pokémon in the title. We don't even know who you are talking about until the fourth line down.
 
I've seen and uses SpD Milotics before, but I'm unsure if that's really the best EV spread. Only 56 EVs are necessary for what you listed, maybe use that spread instead?
 
I've seen and uses SpD Milotics before, but I'm unsure if that's really the best EV spread. Only 56 EVs are necessary for what you listed, maybe use that spread instead?
I thought about using that but when entry hazards are in the field, the difference in sp.def ev investment makes the difference between taking 2 hits and living or dying by the second one(Ludicolo,Mixed +2 Houndoom).Also I guess the Ev's i used where pretty specific to handle the threats I wanted to cover but if your not convinced I'll change them around.
 

FlareBlitz

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Could you explain the difference between this and 252/56 Calm please? Milotic needs its Defense. Some calcs would be appreciated; things like "Milotic is 2hko'd by this with your spread but not with this spread" would be great.
 
Without 200 Defense Milotic is 2HKOed by shit like LO Arcanine's Flash Fire Flare Blitz. It's also actually possibly OHKOed by Rhyperior's Earthquake (does like 78% minimum) after just Stealth Rock.

I don't think Milotic should sacrifice those if it doesn't need the SpD to beat the other threats. Could you provide calculations for the specific instances where you believe your spread is better so we get a better idea of what the benefits are?
 
252 HP / 216 Def / 32 SpD / 8 Spe + Calm is what I use for SpD Milotic. 8 Speed for Adamant Aggron (however rare), 252/32+ to take a maximum of 184 damage from Modest LO Moltres HP Grass, which is never a 2HKO with SR and Leftovers. rest in Defense because it needs it.

56 EVs on Milotic is something that developed starting around July/August of last year; people used to use 56 Speed EVs on it to outpace Adamant Torterra and hit it with Ice Beam. people like to use familiar EV spreads so when SpD was needed, they just shifted Speed EVs into that stat. however, it does also allow Milotic to hit a bonus point with a Calm nature, so 252 HP / 192 Def / 56 SpD / 8 Spe Calm also works. maybe even without the 8 Speed... I've never really used it.

I feel like Haze should be almost a primary option on this set since it is much better at taking on stuff like CM Uxie, CM Clefable, even some Mismagius, than normal Milotic.
 
I might be a little controversial when I suggest this, but I think having any 'specially bulky Milotic' which plays strictly like the physically bulky set is a bad idea. Some people have asked me about my spread and here it is. I'm gonna suggest something a little more like a 'specially bulky tank' that poses a bit of an offensive threat while still taking special (and weak physical!) hits like a champ.

Milotic(F)@Leftovers
Nature:Calm
Ability:Marvel Scale
EV's:252HP/104SpA/96SpD/56Spe
-Surf
-Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass
-Recover
-Haze / Toxic

Slots 2 and 4 are customizable really, but I went with Ice Beam / Haze.

-Rotom only does 52% max with Timid Thunderbolt so if Milotic is in perfect condition it'll beat Rotom. Surf 2HKO's almost all variants (can 2HKO max HP Rotom with SR, but Milotic will most likely win against these regardless).
-Surf now has a nice chance to 2HKO Mismagius with rocks. Mismagius's +2 LO Thunderbolt deals 96% max. A Mismagius that switches into Ice Beam or Surf will always lose.
-Ice Beam does a minimum of 50% to LO special Venu, meaning you don't even need SR to 2HKO. If Venu doesn't put Milotic to sleep and decides to Leaf Storm, it does 87.3% - 103.6%, an OHKO with SR. But seeing as how Venu will be switching into Milotic, Milo will most likely be in perfect health and has a chance to survive the Leaf Storm and either Recover (while surviving the 2nd hit and Recovering again) or just Ice Beam for the 2HKO. So this Milotic can actually beat Venusaur. Max HP physically defensive Venusaur take up to 45% from Ice Beam, meaning they will eventually lose to Milotic if Sleep Clause is in effect or if without Leech Seed.
-basically just hits a lot harder. You now have a chance to OHKO SD Leafeon if it switches in with SR. Sceptile, Tangrowth and the like take a lot more damage.

Obviously it has trouble with strong physical attackers, but most Calm Milotic are usually 2HKO'd by moves Bold ones wouldn't be when they choose to run SpD. At least this Milotic can lure and defeat some of the top threats (Venu at #2, Missy at #4, and Rotom at #11) while walling special hits better. It still trolls and outspeeds max Speed Adamant Torterra to boot!

I used this on a team with Tangrowth and Arcanine and many teams couldn't break through them. Tangrowth and the others would spread status with Stun Spore/Thunder Wave to set up a Sub Marowak sweep, and all 3 of the above Pokemon Milotic lured and defeated which made it easy....This Milotic was made only for my team you might say? Probably...but I still think people should test it out because I find Milotic sucks as a mixed wall as much as people hype it up (invest too much in Def, special attacks O-2HKO, invest too much in SpD and physical attacks now O-2HKO. Milotic isn't Cresselia here), so it would be a nice change of pace to have a non-LO Milotic tank.
 
I dunno....its a pretty massive difference in damage for hits that you just 'expect' Milotic to be able to take.

Just some examples:

Jolly LO Flash Fire Flare Blitz
252/0: 52% - 61.4%
252/200: 41.4% - 48.7%

That is ...massive. Arcanine isn't something that is easy to find a counter for.

LO DD Gatr Earthquake
252/0: 61.7% - 72.8% (get 2hkoed even if you try to Haze -> Recover it)
252/200: 49% - 57.9% (you can easily Haze -> Recover it)

Gatr is also something that is hard to find a counter for.


I KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE USED IN THE SAME WAY AS A PHYSICAL WALL but stuff like the above is usually hard to find a surefire counter for outside of Milotic and using it just to be able to lure and beat stuff like Missy/ Rotom/ Venusaur (who you only beat if sleep clause is active) seems really strange to me when they are handled fairly easily by other 'Mons... Registeel+Steelix for Missy, a whole slew of stuff for Rotom, and a shitton walls Venusaur when sleep clause is active.

I think 'don't fix what isn't broken' applies here.



On another note, I don't see any mention of a Calm spread on the Bulky Water analysis so wouldn't just a mention of 252 HP / 216 Def / 32 SpD / 8 Spe + Calm (suggest by Whistle) or even 252/200/56 Calm and the benefits be fine? not 2hkoed by Moltres etc.


P.S -''Can easily take 3 HP grass from rival LO Milotic and stall with toxic+recover'' is meant to be 2 x hp grassbecause even with min. damage Moltres 3hkos.

100%-12-36+6=58% (the switch in)
-36+6=28% (the followup hp grass)
then fainted.

It was probably just a mistake because you said it isn't 2HKOed further up.
 

franky

aka pimpdaddyfranky, aka frankydelaghetto, aka F, aka ef
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i like whistles spread cause the only way i am really going to use this over the standard variant is the ability to safely switch into unsuspecting modest moltres - special fire-types to be exact.

thund's on the other hand can be mentioned in addition comments in my opinion. the spread presented allows you to hit back special threats while tanking them at the same time. in short, if your using milotic as a primary special wall then thund's spread should be sufficient.

partners wise, i've always paired this with tangrowth or physically defensive venusaur to a lesser degree. it allows you to ward off threats such as cb azumarill and dd feraligatr - two threats who are capable of exploiting its lower physical defense stat now. tangrowth shuts them down cold. ghost. makes plenty of sense here, we are using this as a special wall instead of physical walling so the best solution for this is to pair it with physical walls like the one i mentioned.

slash order imo:

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive Water
move 1: Surf
move 2: Haze / Toxic
move 3: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Marvel scale
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 150 SpD

reasons why this is better for spD milotic:

-haze is the primary option to deal with boosting threats such as mismagius, clefable, slowbro, uxie, etc.

-toxic is secondary to deal with opposing bulky waters - mainly milotic and slowbro

-ice beam should be main option here if your planning to pair in tandem with toxic because it allows you to ward off venusaur who can take toxic easily. hp grass still has its usage such as picking on weakened azumarill or feraligatr.
 
As long as 56 Spe is not a Speed creep, I do like Thund's spread. However it should be noted that it needs to be used with a Pokemon like Arcanine and a Pokemon like Tangrowth because it gets destroyed by the usual physical attackers.
 

Toothache

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I've been using Mirror Coat on Special Defensive Milotic to good success. It's amazing how much it can survive, and Recover ensures it isn't just a one-shot procedure. Of course, I generally use it for the surprise factor, and once the wild card is revealed it becomes immediately less useful, but it is a workable option.
 
i like whistles spread cause the only way i am really going to use this over the standard variant is the ability to safely switch into unsuspecting modest moltres - special fire-types to be exact.

thund's on the other hand can be mentioned in addition comments in my opinion. the spread presented allows you to hit back special threats while tanking them at the same time. in short, if your using milotic as a primary special wall then thund's spread should be sufficient.

partners wise, i've always paired this with tangrowth or physically defensive venusaur to a lesser degree. it allows you to ward off threats such as cb azumarill and dd feraligatr - two threats who are capable of exploiting its lower physical defense stat now. tangrowth shuts them down cold. ghost. makes plenty of sense here, we are using this as a special wall instead of physical walling so the best solution for this is to pair it with physical walls like the one i mentioned.

slash order imo:

[SET]
name: Specially Defensive Water
move 1: Surf
move 2: Haze / Toxic
move 3: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Marvel scale
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 150 SpD

reasons why this is better for spD milotic:

-haze is the primary option to deal with boosting threats such as mismagius, clefable, slowbro, uxie, etc.

-toxic is secondary to deal with opposing bulky waters - mainly milotic and slowbro

-ice beam should be main option here if your planning to pair in tandem with toxic because it allows you to ward off venusaur who can take toxic easily. hp grass still has its usage such as picking on weakened azumarill or feraligatr.
It needs both Toxic+Haze to be successful hazer bro;pp

Without 200 Defense Milotic is 2HKOed by shit like LO Arcanine's Flash Fire Flare Blitz. It's also actually possibly OHKOed by Rhyperior's Earthquake (does like 78% minimum) after just Stealth Rock.

I don't think Milotic should sacrifice those if it doesn't need the SpD to beat the other threats. Could you provide calculations for the specific instances where you believe your spread is better so we get a better idea of what the benefits are?
How does Adamant LO flare blitz 2hko this set? Say this when you've done the calcs please.

252att/Adamant LO arcanine does 33.6% - 39.7%. which isn't even a 2HKO after stealth rock, might not even be a 3HKO after leftovers recovery.


Anyhow if you members of QC staff feel it isn't worth having the extra sp.def investment shall i change the ev spread to thund's?;p
 
Well than I'm glad it wasn't met with as much lols as I thought it would be. Honestly I didn't expect it to be the main spread but a mention in AC is fine. I just find it awesome that a defensive Water-type can beat Rotom and with a bit of luck maybe even Venusaur.
<___<

Also I wouldn't call Mismagius and Rotom "easy" stuff to wall. It's basically have a Spiritomb or lose when they preserve their Ghost and sweep when Registeel is down. This Milotic can also counter all Zam besides Modest Specs...but we all know I'm the only one crazy enough to use that.
 

FlareBlitz

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Somalia, Heysup specifically mentioned a Flash Fire LO Flare Blitz...which does 2hko your spread quite easily while only having a slight chance of 2hkoing a 252/200 spread.

Anyway, I've given this a bit of thought, and I realized that a 252/200/56 spread is not sufficiently different from the standard Bold spread that it specifically deserves a new analysis. So what I am recommending is just puting 252 HP/200 Def/56 SpD with Calm into the AC of the standard bulky water set and mention some of its advantages and disadvantages. If Somalia wants to write that section up, that would be fine.

I also briefly considered advocating the inclusion of a very specially-defensive set, but after playing around with a lot of calcs I realized there wouldn't be much point (kinda like there isn't much point in a physically-defensive Drapion). Most of the special attackers in the tier either can't get past Bold Milotic, with its high natural special defense, or use Grass/Electric attacks and can get past a Calm one too. I did some calcs for Lanturn, Mismagius, Venusaur, Rotom, Manectric, and other premier special attackers, and only Rotom and sometimes Manectric would be handled better by a Calm set, and that's only if they didn't know beforehand that you were running Mirror Coat (which is the only way to beat them).
 
Somalia, Heysup specifically mentioned a Flash Fire LO Flare Blitz...which does 2hko your spread quite easily while only having a slight chance of 2hkoing a 252/200 spread.

Anyway, I've given this a bit of thought, and I realized that a 252/200/56 spread is not sufficiently different from the standard Bold spread that it specifically deserves a new analysis. So what I am recommending is just puting 252 HP/200 Def/56 SpD with Calm into the AC of the standard bulky water set and mention some of its advantages and disadvantages. If Somalia wants to write that section up, that would be fine.

I also briefly considered advocating the inclusion of a very specially-defensive set, but after playing around with a lot of calcs I realized there wouldn't be much point (kinda like there isn't much point in a physically-defensive Drapion). Most of the special attackers in the tier either can't get past Bold Milotic, with its high natural special defense, or use Grass/Electric attacks and can get past a Calm one too. I did some calcs for Lanturn, Mismagius, Venusaur, Rotom, Manectric, and other premier special attackers, and only Rotom and sometimes Manectric would be handled better by a Calm set, and that's only if they didn't know beforehand that you were running Mirror Coat (which is the only way to beat them).
Ludicolo,Nasty plot mixed doom,LO modest moltres,Gorebyss????. Also it's not like saying drapion to be a defensive tank because Milotic actually boasts good special defense in the first place;p Anyhow I'll change the ev spread like instructed but moveset remains. Also sure I will write it up Flareblitz, thanks. Also sorry for making a statement without completely reading Heysups comment.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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You are correct about Ludicolo, and even then only assuming it doesn't run Grass Knot. Bold Milotic handles NP Doom and Gorebyss just fine, not being ohko'd by the former and ohkoing in turn while not being 2hko'd by the latter (unless it's specs >_>). However, you are free to mention that all of these are handled better by a more specifically defensive spread if more hazards or residual damage is present. In fact I would have easily approved a heavily specially defensive set a couple of metagames ago because of Whorelass but spike stacking isn't nearly as common or effective anymore.
 
Haha funny thing is that I been using this set/spread since the froswhore era but wasn't even a member of the smogon forums at the time. Anyhow someone please check as I made changes as Flareblitz adviced.
 
ok this looks mostly fine, the only thing that I'm a little unsure about is HP Flying. HP Psychic is probably a better choice since it nails Toxicroak harder. you can't hit Toxicroak with your STAB but you can hit Heracross with it, and Heracross also deals a ton more damage to Milotic than Toxicroak does (without a SD/NP) so using a surprise HP that doesn't even OHKO isn't the best idea.

that's just a minor thing though, so QC Approved 1/2
 
ok this looks mostly fine, the only thing that I'm a little unsure about is HP Flying. HP Psychic is probably a better choice since it nails Toxicroak harder. you can't hit Toxicroak with your STAB but you can hit Heracross with it, and Heracross also deals a ton more damage to Milotic than Toxicroak does (without a SD/NP) so using a surprise HP that doesn't even OHKO isn't the best idea.

that's just a minor thing though, so QC Approved 1/2
Will change it, thanks alot.
 
I think the spread should be altered to this: 252 HP / 192 Def / 56 SpD / 8 Spe Calm.

Outpacing Adamant Aggron is important enough to invest two points.
 

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