Groudon (Update)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/groudon

Status: donedonedonedonedone

[Overview]

<p>Although Groudon may seem out of place in a tier flooded by vicious special attackers, it has a very valuable and specific niche in Ubers. With a monstrous Attack stat and access to Rock Polish and Swords Dance, Groudon is one of the most prominent physical sweepers in the tier, capable of threatening both stall and offensive teams. Moreover, Groudon can play the role of a fantastic physical wall, and is one of the few Pokemon that can reliably counter Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Lucario thanks to its great Defense. Groudon also has access to Stealth Rock, a very valuable move that many Pokemon in the Uber metagame lack. Overall, Groudon is an extremely unpredictable Pokemon, and its ability to both sweep and support makes it a valuable asset to almost any team.</p>

[SET]
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge / Overheat
move 4: Dragon Claw / Swords Dance
item: Life Orb
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 136 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Groudon's modest Speed and massive Attack stats make it a fantastic user of Rock Polish. This set is best used as a late-game sweeper as you will still need residual damage splashed upon the more bulky Pokemon that are neutral against its attacks. After using Rock Polish, Groudon hits a Speed stat of 500, enough to outrun Choice Scarf Garchomp with a Jolly nature. You can then pick one of Groudon's many options to tear up the field with. STAB Earthquake is mandatory and destroys Dialga, Metagross, and any Pokemon that does not resist Ground yet dares to switch in. Stone Edge complements Earthquake for all-around coverage as well as devastating Lugia, Rayquaza, and most Flying-type foes. If you already have a way to deal with Lugia, Overheat is another option because it OHKOes Skarmory, which would otherwise wall this set.</p>

<p>Dragon Claw is the best option in the last slot, as it allows Groudon to destroy Latias, Latios, Giratina-O, and Rayquaza. Swords Dance, on the other hand, is extremely useful if you can create two turns of setup for Groudon. After both a Rock Polish and a Swords Dance, your opponent will more than likely have to rely on Stone Edge missing if they hope to stop Groudon's rampage. In addition, Swords Dance gives Groudon a reliable way of defeating Wobbuffet barring an untimely Encore, as a +2 Earthquake will always OHKO.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The HP EVs allow the maximum number of Life Orb uses and give enough defenses on both sides to take hits if needed. As previously mentioned, the Speed EVs allow Groudon to reach a Speed stat of 500, while the remaining 8 EVs are placed in Defense slightly more bulk. However, another EV spread to consider is 42 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe with a Jolly nature. This will allow Groudon to outspeed even a Choice Scarf Mewtwo, which also means that Choice Scarf Shaymin-S and Darkrai can no longer stop Groudon's sweep. Unfortunately, this results in a power loss, meaning Groudon has a far lower chance of obtaining vital OHKOs on Pokemon such as Palkia. This becomes a non-issue when using Swords Dance though, as almost every single Pokemon in the game will be OHKOed regardless of the nature. In fact, the only common Pokemon in Ubers that don't have to rely on Stone Edge's accuracy to beat this Groudon are Skarmory and Giratina.</p>

<p>There are three main walls in Ubers that will give Groudon: Skarmory (if Groudon lacks Overheat), Lugia (if Groudon lacks Stone Edge), and Giratina. Even when Groudon uses Stone Edge, its shaky accuracy can give Lugia the advantage if it misses. In addition, there are still a few Pokemon capable of revenge killing it: Choice Scarf Darkrai, Choice Scarf Mewtwo, Choice Scarf Shaymin-S, and Wobbuffet. A Timid Darkrai can KO Groudon with Dark Pulse if Groudon is below 40% health, but the threat of sleep is what makes Darkrai truly problematic, as Dark Void gives it a very reliable way of crippling Groudon. Similarly, Timid Mewtwo can do 85% - 100% to Groudon with Grass Knot. Choice Scarf Shaymin-S is a particularly large problem, because not only can it switch into Earthquake, but it can also OHKO Groudon with Seed Flare. Finally, if Wobbuffet switches into Groudon, Groudon will eventually be forced to attack Wobbuffet, and will thus be KOed by Counter.</p>

<p>Scizor is a fantastic partner for Rock Polish Groudon. It can easily take Dark Pulses and Grass Knots from Darkrai and Mewtwo, respectively, and can shrug off Shaymin-S's Seed Flare like nothing. Scizor can then threaten to OHKO both Darkrai and Mewtwo with U-turn, and do a serious amount of damage to Shaymin-S. It can also use Pursuit to do a heavy amount of damage to Mewtwo and Shaymin-S as they switch out. Pairing Scizor with Wobbuffet can also spell doom for Giratina and Lugia. Wobbuffet can Encore a support move and use multiple Tickles to allow Scizor to come in and Pursuit the fleeing Pokemon. Kyogre is also a great teammate for Groudon, as its gargantuan Special Defense will easily allow it to take attacks from Mewtwo and Darkrai and use the time to set up Calm Minds or to launch off powerful Water-type attacks. It also has very little to fear from Skarmory, Lugia, and Giratina, and can use them as set-up fodder or unleash its powerful attacks on them. Spikes should always be considered in conjunction with Stealth Rock support when using Rock Polish Groudon. With Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes, Palkia will always be OHKOed by Dragon Claw, while 4 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo and Kyogre will also be KOed by Earthquake. Garchomp will have a 92.3% chance of being OHKOed by Groudon's Dragon Claw after Stealth Rock and Spikes, a much more favorable position than the meager 7% chance with only Stealth Rock. Deoxys-S is a good choice for laying down Spikes and Stealth Rock, and makes a good lead for many offensive teams. If Deoxys-S is not a suitable option for your team, Forretress makes another excellent choice as a teammate. Forretress can easily set up Spikes and Stealth Rock on Lugia and Skarmory, both of whom are common switch-ins to Groudon.</p>

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Groudon, while commonly seen as a dominating physical sweeper, can also play a supporting role, hindering the walls that usually stop it and halting monstrous physical threats in their tracks. With access to fantastic utility moves such as Stealth Rock and Toxic and sturdy defenses Groudon can survive a wide variety of hits while setting up.</p>

<p>The premise of this set is threefold. Firstly, Groudon plays the role of a wonderful physical wall, countering the likes of Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Lucario while dispatching them with either Earthquake or Stone Edge. Dragon Claw is an option for a more reliable way to hit Rayquaza, and gives Groudon a slightly stronger method of dealing with Palkia and Groudon. However, Stone Edge is largely the superior option thanks to its greater coverage and the ability to OHKO Ho-Oh. Secondly, Groudon is one of the most reliable users of Stealth Rock in Ubers, easily finding time to set up the entry hazard to support its fellow teammates. Finally, this Groudon is meant to spread around either paralysis or poison. Support Groudon is fantastic at luring walls like Lugia and shutting them down with Toxic, as Lugia can only recover off the staving effects of poison so many times before falling. Groudon can also choose to run Thunder Wave to cripple common switch-ins, which greatly helps slower sweepers wreak havoc. Roar is an option to phaze and scout an opponent's team, constantly whittling down the opposition in the process if Stealth Rock is up.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With an Impish nature and max Hit Points and Defense, Groudon is one of the few Pokemon that can survive a bout with Swords Dance Rayquaza, Garchomp, or Lucario. It will never be OHKOed by Rayquaza's +2 Dragon Claw, Garchomp's +2 Outrage, or Lucario's +2 Close Combat, which are among the most powerful physical attacks in Ubers. In turn, Groudon can score a clean OHKO on Lucario with Earthquake and take Rayquaza out with one Stone Edge provided it has taken one turn of Life Orb recoil. Although Groudon can only 2HKO Garchomp, Groudon will leave Garchomp at such a low health that it can be revenge killed by virtually any attack. If physical walling is not a priority, then there is another EV spread to consider. With a Careful nature and a spread of 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD, Palkia will be unable to 2HKO Groudon with an unboosted Spacial Rend, while Groudon will 2HKO it with Earthquake. The standard 204 SpA Latias will do 77% maximum with Grass Knot, which means that Groudon can cripple it with Toxic or Thunder Wave before switching out. The 32 Defense EVs are here to survive a +1 Outrage from a Jolly Rayquaza.</p>

<p>This Groudon set can work well as a lead with some small adjustments. When using a lead Groudon, it's best to use the same EV spread as the Careful Groudon, but with a Sassy nature and a Speed IV of 0. Lead Groudon should also be using Thunder Wave over Toxic and hold a Chesto Berry. The reason that Groudon is using minimum Speed is because when facing a Kyogre lead, Groudon’s Drought will cancel out Kyogre’s rain (unless it is a Speed tie, which means that Kyogre is using a Speed-reducing nature and 0 Speed IVs as well). Thanks to Groudon’s heavy investment in Special Defense, Groudon will live through an Ice Beam and be able to use Stealth Rock. However, an Impish nature is fully acceptable if Kyogre isn't an issue and your team requires physical walling throughout the course of the game. When facing a Darkrai lead, Groudon should use Thunder Wave. The Chesto Berry not only guards Groudon from Dark Void, but it also keeps Darkrai paralyzed even if it uses Trick, unlike the Lum Berry. When facing Deoxys-A, it is often best to hit it with Earthquake, and then switch to a faster Pokemon who can take Deoxys-A’s next attack (such as switching Choice Scarf Dialga into a Grass Knot). Unfortunately, Deoxys-S is always going to be able to get Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes up. Because of this, it is recommended to have either Forretress on the team to Rapid Spin the entry hazards away, or to have a team that Stealth Rock and Spikes do not harm too much.</p>

<p>This set still has trouble dealing with Giratina, as it can simply remove its Toxic status by using Rest, while simultaneously threatening a burn with Will-O-Wisp if it runs Sleep Talk. Supporting Groudon, as the name implies, is not meant to sweep, even after the opponent's walls have been brought down. It is best used alongside physical sweepers like Bulk Up Dialga or Dragon Dance Rayquaza, as the pair can beat Giratina one on one. They will also help against powerful special threats like Kyogre whom Groudon cannot handle. While on the surface, this set does not look like your typical wallbreaker. However, Supporting Groudon can force pressure on Lugia, Ubers' foremost physical wall. With Lugia crippled by Stealth Rock and afflicted by Toxic, teammates such as Swords Dance or Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Bulk Up Dialga can step in and run through a team unhindered by Reflect or Whirlwind. Choice Band Garchomp can also perform well, as Jolly Outrage will 2HKO a slower Lugia after Stealth Rock and two turns of Toxic damage.</p>

[SET]
name: ParaDancer
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 200 Atk / 108 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set looks unusual at first but it is effective when used properly. The main idea is to figure out what Pokemon switches into Groudon. Lugia is the prime example as it attempts to stall Groudon out with Reflect and Roost, leaving it useless. This set proposes a different idea than the normal 'hit and run' or 'cripple everything in sight' strategy. Instead, it meshes the ideas together to create quite the posing threat. It's best to Thunder Wave in the early-game when almost every Pokemon is faster than Groudon. Most Pokemon that switch in to take Groudon's attacks aren't usually a Ground-type, which makes the strategy even more appealing. After crippling some Pokemon, use Swords Dance while the opponent switches, or on Pokemon that don't pose an immediate threat to Groudon. After that, Groudon can tear apart every Pokemon with STAB Earthquake and a boosted Stone Edge. Keep in mind that Stealth Rock is necessary on this set to help generate necessary OHKOs and 2HKOs after a Swords Dance. Without Stealth Rock, Groudon will have a harder time beating down its usual counters even with paralysis on its side.</p>

<p>Paralysis is the crux of this set for many reasons. First off, Lugia will have a more difficult time blocking Stone Edges as Roost will not remove the Rock-type weakness. Then, the 25% chance of being fully paralyzed is also a benefit and allows free Swords Dances or even more spamming of Groudon's attacks. Finally, having a Pokemon slower than Groudon is always a benefit for you and trouble for your opponent.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs here seem somewhat complicated but they actually work well together. 200 HP EVs grant 391 HP, effectively minimizing damage taken by poison, burn, and Spikes while retaining a medium amount of Leftovers recovery. The Attack EVs guarantee that Lugia is taken down after a Swords Danced Stone Edge. The rest is thrown into Defense for durability, although 88 EVs can be taken out of Attack and placed in Speed to generate 238 Speed, which is just enough to outpace neutral base 100s with no Speed.</p>

<p>ParaDance Groudon’s focus on paralysis not only helps itself sweep, but is also extremely helpful to the many powerful but slow Pokemon of the Uber environment. A great example of this kind of partner is Choice Specs Kyogre. Some people will be tempted to predict an Earthquake, and switch in either Latias or Shaymin-S. With Shaymin-S crippled by paralysis, it will no longer be able to revenge kill Kyogre. Latias will also be unable to use Recover in time before two Ice Beams from Choice Specs Kyogre finishes it off. Giratina-O benefits in a similar way, as a paralyzed Latias has no chance of stopping a Calm Mind Giratina-O from sweeping. If Lugia is paralyzed, then Swords Dance Rayquaza can outspeed Lugia and OHKO it with a +2 Outrage. Most offensive Dialga of any kind will greatly appreciate the paralysis support, especially mixed Dialga. Mixed Dialga can also destroy both Skarmory and Giratina with almost no problems, which means that Groudon itself will have a much easier time sweeping. Additionally, Wobbuffet can benefit from the paralysis. If Groudon paralyzes a Pokemon such as Lugia, it may attempt to use Reflect. However, if you switch Wobbuffet in, it can use Encore before Lugia moves due to the paralysis Speed drop, and thus easily set up a Pokemon such as Darkrai to sweep.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Fire Punch
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 224 Atk / 32 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Choice Band Groudon is commonly used to hit and run, setting up the sunlight while it’s at it. With Choice Band boosting its already massive Attack stat, it can easily exploit the generally lower physical defensive Pokemon found in Ubers. With this set, Groudon is capable of striking many Ubers very hard. Earthquake is a general STAB attack that leaves a huge dent in any Pokemon not immune or resistant to it. The other three attacks cover every type that Earthquake does not. Stone Edge damages Lugia badly and easily KOs Ho-Oh, while Dragon Claw destroys Latias and Latios, and also provides some extra power against Giratina and Palkia. Fire Punch wrecks Skarmory, Forretress, and Bronzong and receives what is tantamount to a STAB boost thanks to Drought. While Overheat is an option to OHKO Skarmory, Fire Punch works off Groudon’s enormous Attack, doesn’t carry an annoying side effect such as a Special Attack drop, and helps in situations where prediction is required, such as between Skarmory and Blissey. Fire Punch will still take down Skarmory in two hits however.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs given for this set allow for a combination of durability and power. The combination of HP and Defense EVs allows this Groudon to survive a Rayquaza Outrage that is boosted by both a Life Orb and a Dragon Dance. Meanwhile, the small amount in Speed helps it outrun fellow Ubers that rarely invest in Speed, such as Giratina and Dialga.</p>

<p>What stops Choice Band Groudon from dominating the physically frail Uber metagame is its less than staggering Speed. As such, a team that can provide paralysis support will greatly aid Groudon's sweep. Pokemon such as Lugia, which usually lure in special attackers such as Darkrai, Kyogre, and Palkia, can neutralize all such threats with a Thunder Wave on the switch. Similarly, a Kyogre of your own can help lure in Palkia, Latias, and Latios, while also utilizing an uncommon move in Thunder Wave.</p>

<p>While Stealth Rock is a great addition to any sweeper, it presents a pseudo Rock / Ground coverage, a two-type combination that hits hard. For example, Lugia, Shaymin-S, and Rayquaza can switch in to an Earthquake with impunity; however, with Stealth Rock in place, the three will lose 25% of their hit points when switching in. Dialga makes a good candidate for setting up Stealth Rock as it is also capable of slowing down various threats with Thunder Wave. It can also lure in Lugia and cripple it with Toxic. Moreover, there are ways to take advantage of these switch-ins as well. In Lugia’s case, Taunt Mewtwo can switch in and use Lugia as set-up time as long as it avoids Toxic. In a similar manner, Darkrai can switch in, put Lugia to sleep, and set up on it. For Rayquaza, Choice Scarf Dialga can put an end to Swords Dance Rayquaza, while Dragon Dance Rayquaza will be beaten by Choice Scarf Palkia. Choice Scarf Gengar has the ability to beat both Dragon Dance and Swords Dance Rayquaza. Mixed Rayquaza is far more difficult to deal with — the best bet against it is a Bold Lugia with 248 Speed EVs. Finally, Shaymin-S’s plans are foiled by Choice Scarf Dialga, which sports a 4x resistance to Seed Flare and can OHKO with Draco Meteor. Offensively, Groudon pairs well with mixed Rayquaza, which can switch in on Grass- and Water-type attacks reasonably well, lure in standard physical walls such as opposing Bulky Groudon or Lugia, and batter them down with Draco Meteor. Likewise, the unpredictable mixed Dialga sets work well at luring in physical walls, then smacking them hard. Wobbuffet with Tickle, alongside a Pursuit user, can also effectively break Lugia and/or Giratina.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Much like most offensive Pokemon, Groudon appreciates Stealth Rock support. This is especially important for Groudon, as Flying-type Pokemon such as Shaymin-S, Lugia, and Rayquaza are common switch-ins to Groudon’s Earthquakes. Like the other slow but powerful Uber Pokemon, Groudon will greatly benefit from paralysis support. Kyogre with Thunder Wave can lure Latias and Palkia in and paralyze them. With these threats paralyzed, revenge killing Groudon can be much tougher. Defensive Groudon will also become much harder to take down with Wish support. Wish users, namely Blissey and Jirachi, are very useful teammates for Groudon. Blissey, in addition to providing Wish, can also take the extremely powerful special attacks that are aimed at Groudon with few problems. Latias is one of the few Pokemon that can take on Choice Specs Kyogre, which may switch in on Groudon. Finally, Jirachi resists Grass- and Ice-type attacks for Groudon, and can use Body Slam to paralyze foes so Groudon can have an easier time sweeping.</p>

<p>When looking for defensive combinations for Groudon, it is best to look for Pokemon that resist Grass- and Ice-type attacks, as well as Water-type attacks to a lesser extent (due to Drought lowering their power). Kyogre should always be considered when using Groudon, not only because of its resistances to Ice and Water, but also because Kyogre will often lure Choiced Thunders from Palkia, Dialga, or other Kyogre. Groudon can switch into these Choiced Thunders thanks to its immunity to Electric-type attacks, and easily set up on them. Scizor and Forretress are also excellent partners for Groudon, because both have a 4x resistance to Grass-type attacks, and sport a resistance to Ice. Latias is one of the few Pokemon that can take on Choice Specs Kyogre, and should always be considered for use with Groudon thanks to its Water- and Grass-type resistances. Although Shaymin-S is not a sturdy Pokemon, its 4x resistance to Grass-type attacks can be handy for Groudon. Giratina and Giratina-O can cover Groudon's weaknesses to Water- and Grass-type attacks as well. Dialga, in addition to having a resistance to Water, also provides a 4x resistance to Grass-type attacks. Lastly, Rayquaza has a resistance to Water and a 4x resistance to Grass, but unfortunately will attract a lot of Ice-type attacks, which Groudon is also weak to.</p>

<p>There are several Pokemon that can benefit from Groudon's eternal sunshine: Ho-Oh, Heatran, Jumpluff, Shiftry, and Exeggutor. With both Groudon's sunlight and Rapid Spin support from Forretress, Ho-Oh can be incredibly hard to stop once Kyogre is down. Choice Scarf Palkia will also only be able to 3HKO Ho-Oh in the sun, thus Ho-Oh can out stall it with Roost. Ho-Oh also benefits Groudon because Ho-Oh has a 4x resistance to Grass-type attacks. Heatran can work in a similar manner once Kyogre is down. Its Fire Blasts are so powerful in the sunlight that even Timid Heatran can 2HKO Lugia with Fire Blast after Stealth Rock damage. Heatran also helps Groudon with its 4x resistances to both Grass and Ice. With the sun to support it, Jumpluff becomes an almost unstoppable user of Substitute and Leech Seed, as the sun boosts Jumpluff's Speed stat to a massive 700 Speed. Jumpluff can also use Encore to force Pokemon such as Darkrai to repeat their set-up move, allowing Jumpluff more opportunities to abuse its combination of Leech Seed and Substitute. Its 4x resistance to Grass is especially useful in this case, because Jumpluff can switch into Grass attacks aimed at Groudon, and then use Encore to set up its Leech Seed madness once more. Shiftry can become a sweeping threat when under the sun, thanks to the Speed doubling effects of Chlorophyll. Due to its Grass and Dark STAB moves, Shiftry can hit a large amount of the Uber metagame for super effective damage. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo is always OHKOed by a Life Orb Dark Pulse, while Latias, Lugia, and Giratina are 2HKOed after Stealth Rock damage. Grass Knot can easily OHKO Groudon, 2HKO Palkia, and 2HKO Kyogre if it attempts to get rid of Shiftry's sunlight. With Wobbuffet's support, Shiftry can sometimes get a chance to use Nasty Plot, which will allow it to OHKO all of the threats mentioned above. Exeggutor functions similarly to Shiftry, except Exeggutor doesn't have Dark Pulse, Nasty Plot, and base 80 Speed. To make up for this, Exeggutor has the ability to survive a Bullet Punch from Scizor, and OHKO it with Hidden Power Fire. Exeggutor also has Sleep Powder, which can cripple Pokemon that attempt to counter it.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>A Salac Berry set with Substitute and Swords Dance is certainly viable, and with Wobbuffet's Encore support and potentially paralysis support, it can be very difficult to stop. However, Groudon will be very susceptible to almost all priority attacks. A Swords Dance set with three attacks is also a usable option, although it's mostly outclassed by the ParaDancer due to Groudon's middling Speed. A set with Thunder Wave and three attacks is viable, although it is again slightly inferior to the ParaDancer, as Groudon will have a hard time sweeping without Swords Dance. It does still make a solid supporter despite the absence of Stealth Rock. Groudon has the option of using a Rest + Sleep Talk set, which can be helpful for stall teams. Safeguard will stop Giratina that don’t carry Roar from burning Groudon. Fling while Groudon is holding an Iron Ball will OHKO Lugia after a Swords Dance, provided Lugia doesn’t set up the precautionary Reflect before it attempts to Whirlwind Groudon and its boosts away. Don’t even consider using any special moves aside from Overheat, because Groudon’s noticeably inferior Special Attack and the general surplus of Pokemon with high Special Defense in Ubers will prevent them from doing much damage.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Despite its rarity in Ubers, Cresselia is probably the best counter for any Groudon that exists. Its high HP and Defense can quite easily take the best that Groudon can throw at it, along with a Moonlight that is boosted in sunlight to roughly 67% of healing. It can even set up a Reflect to stay alive longer. While Groudon struggles to destroy it, Cresselia can use Grass Knot or Ice Beam for good amounts of direct damage or Toxic to whittle Groudon down slowly. However, Cresselia isn't particularly useful in Ubers aside from a few very specific tasks and is often substituted for by others.</p>

<p>Groudon will run into problems against three common Ubers walls: Lugia, Giratina, and Skarmory. Lugia works similarly to Cresselia in countering Groudon, as it can also use Reflect to reduce damage from Groudon's attacks. While the weakness to Stone Edge may sound disheartening, Lugia's Pressure ability will cut Stone Edge's already meager 8 PP in half, and its Roost will allow it to dump the Rock weakness for a turn assuming it is EVed to outspeed Groudon. Additionally, if Groudon decides to use Swords Dance, Whirlwind will blow away its plans easily. In any situation, Ice Beam is always helpful to land a solid hit. Although Giratina has no reliable recovery outside of Rest and it must rely on Will-O-Wisp's sketchy 75% accuracy to stop it, its immense defenses will usually let it win a bout against Groudon. Skarmory can switch into any Groudon that lacks a Fire-type move, and set up Spikes or use Whirlwind to phaze Groudon.</p>

<p>Due to Groudon's terrible Special Defense and middling Speed, it can easily be exploited in a metagame driven by special attackers. Thus, if the likes of Latios, Latias, Shaymin-S or Mewtwo come in safely, they'll do huge damage to Groudon, potentially OHKOing it.</p>

I feel SD Groudon should be removed for the following reason:

Its 90 base speed makes it slower than a majority of the Metagame and Unlike Paradancer, it does not have T-Wave support or Bulk to rely on. The Metagame is simply to fast for this set to be effective. Too many things can easily switch in as you SD and deal serious damage to you. Rock Polish Groudon is capable of outspeeding these foes and Paradancer could paralyze them or have a better chance of taking the hit due to Bulk

Since there are a large amount of sets, I'll address my comments to each one individually

Rock Polish
-Looks good

Support
-I would just mention that its possible to shift EVs into SpD and that there are tons of viable EV spreads for it depending on what your team needs it to survive.

Paradancer
-The only base 100 that runs 0 Speed would be Jirachi, and even then, it can't really do much outside of Body Slam. I would mention those 88 EVs in AC for the ability to outspeed 0 Speed Jirachi before they paralyze you with Body Slam, but other than that, I would rather have more bulk or power.

Swords Dance
-I haven't really used this set much, but it seems sorta inferior to Paradancer as you've pointed out on IRC, so I wouldn't be against it if it was removed.

Choice Band
-Mention that its a great lure for Kyogre, as tons of Kyogre love to switch into Groudon expecting a support version or the like and get nailed by a high power Earthquake for massive damage

I also agree with the removal of SubSalac. Provided these changes are made/discussed:



Qc approved 1/3

STAMP STAMP
QC Approved 2/3

Looks good at the moment, but mention Fire Punch on the RP set?? Overheat is kind of weak with no investment and a -ve nature.

shrang said:

Looks good at the moment, but mention Fire Punch on the RP set?? Overheat is kind of weak with no investment and a -ve nature.

Click to expand...

Actually, Overheat ohkoes SpD Skarm, even with a -ve nature, 212 Atk vs 261 Def & 334 HP (140 Base Power): 316 - 374 (94.61% - 111.98%). Skarmory isn't too common though, I would just make overheat ac, and slash fire punch in the main set. Also, why mention surviving +2 waterfall on the support set, not many players use waterfall on SD Rayquaza. Also, I find twave to be way more useful for support Groudon, rather than toxic.

Shouldn't support groudon be first set?

Anyway, I know that it would be considered speed creep, but the only point of stone edge being first slash is if it can outrun ho-oh so I think that the extra speed EVs on support groudon should be discussed.

Also, I've tested a thunder wave + 3 attacks set and it has worked quite well at crippling switch ins and dealling damage.

@ fire punch: yeah i'll mention it, but you already murk scizor/forretress with overheat and any other steel-type gets earthquaked, but i guess it deserves mention

@thunder wave + 3 attacks: i'll mention it in optional changes

other things:
- i'll mention how you can bump of EVs in AC to however you want to get the jump of other bulky base 90s, but i dont think it should be included in the primary spread as it'd encourage speed creep
- ive discussed this a lot on irc and i really think SD + 3 attacks + life orb is inferior to the paradancer or even double dancer in most ways, so i'd like to shift it to optional changes
- the 88 speed evs of the paradancer will now go in AC

niceeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Iconic said:

@ fire punch: yeah i'll mention it, but you already murk scizor/forretress with overheat and any other steel-type gets earthquaked, but i guess it deserves mention

@thunder wave + 3 attacks: i'll mention it in optional changes

other things:
- i'll mention how you can bump of EVs in AC to however you want to get the jump of other bulky base 90s, but i dont think it should be included in the primary spread as it'd encourage speed creep
- ive discussed this a lot on irc and i really think SD + 3 attacks + life orb is inferior to the paradancer or even double dancer in most ways, so i'd like to shift it to optional changes
- the 88 speed evs of the paradancer will now go in AC

Click to expand...

The paradancer provides the support side of the support set, while giving Groudon some attack power with swords dance. SD alone is far too slow, and will rarely sweep, if ever, at least with something like CB, you'll get boosted attacks no matter what. With double dance, it's good game if you can get both boosts. Jirachi can't do anything to the paradancer anyways, so there' s little point outspeeding them.

QC APPROVED 3/3

bumping to say im done writing and ready for gp checks

Took me all day, this.

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Iconic said:

@thunder wave + 3 attacks: i'll mention it in optional changes

Click to expand...

You said that you will mention it. I can't find it.

thanks bugmaniacbob, i made all your chances and i especially appreciate it since this analysis is so long. and calze6 i added it now, it just slipped my mind. ok one more yey

GP Check 2/2:
additions/changes/comments in blue
removals in red


Stay consistent with Pokemon "who" or Pokemon "that". Don't use both. I've changed all "who"s to "that"s.

Also some mild "it" and "he" confusions. I've changed them to "it".

Nice job overall!

Also, who the hell runs modest darkrai?

Oh, apparently the Trick-or-Treat set has Ice Beam for Additional Comments but the usage is still rather low. And yeah, I think Modest needs to go as well (for Mewtwo too) due to low usage. I'd rather be running Timid on Mewtwo to outrun Darkrai and Timid on Darkrai to outrun Lati@s.

edit: you can mark this as [Done] by going to Go Advanced in the OP and selecting [Done].

thanks a bunch flora, i made all your changes. i fixed up the darkrai crap so you can look over that if you want. i didn't write that part, and merely copied it from the old analysis so i'll fix it too!

i'm done now i guess woooooooo

uploaded