CAM Metagame

outrageousdragondancer

Here's some points I want to highlight before I discuss my idea:

A) Smogon already has made a Create-A-Pokémon project to test the effects of various Pokémon and the effect they have on the metagame. New moves have been made for some of these Pokémon.
Ex. Stratagem gets Paleo Wave and Kitsunoh gets ShadowStrike.

B) Smogon, in addition to analyzing Pokémon, has analyzed the impact of moves and their distribution to Pokémon as well as their overall effect on the metagame.
Ex. Scizor got Bullet Punch, Ho-oh got Brave Bird, and Stealth Rock redefined the importance of entry hazards because certain 2HKOs became OHKOs.

C) We've already seen several of us speculate new moves before.
Ex. Deck Knight, "Black, White, and Ugly: Speculation of a Madman," The Smog, Issue 9 (didn't cite that properly; sorry)
Deck Knight suggests completely plausible moves; just because Gamefreak didn't use them doesn't mean we should abandon those concepts. They can shape a metagame if we study their effects extensively.

So, those are my three points that show that this project has potential.

I have searched for a project like this on Smogon and I'm sure there is no project like it in existence. It would be like CAP if done correctly. There could be a Topic Leader and everyone could help out in the project. A Shoddy Battle server could be made entirely to serve CAM, or CAM could be integrated into CAP. There are many ways to do this.

What should the new move Smogon makes even do? Here are some of the many possibilities:
-It could increase/decrease usage of Pokémon.
(Bullet Punch+Scizor; Stealth Rock+Charizard)
-It could increase/decrease usage of a whole type.
(Outrage+Toxic Spikes against Steel-types; Stealth Rock against Flying-types)
-It could shift the focus of the metagame.
(The metagame could become more of a stall metagame with more forms of passive damage and less ways to effectively use direct attacks against your opponent.)

So, a CAM may look like this (with polling assumed for steps it usually appears):
1) Nomination of a Topic Leader
2) Concept Submissions
3) Stats of the Move
-Physical/Special/Changing?
-Base Power/PP/Accuracy?
-Type?
-Primary/Secondary Effects?
-Targeting?
-Speed Priority?
4) Distribution of the Move
-Level Up?
-Egg Move?
-SMs? (Smogon Machines for easier distribution parallel to TMs)
5) Playtesting and Analysis

Obviously, this Project looks a bit shorter than CAP. If done correctly, it should. So, the rate of CAM turnout of a Final Product will be greater than the rate of CAP Final Products.

Here is a prototype of a move to explain this project:

Stealth Seed:
Type: Grass
Category: Changing
PP: 20
Damage: --
Accuracy: --
Priority: 0
Target: Enemy Field
Primary Effect: Causes opponent to be seeded every time they switch in. Stealth Seed's effects are similar to Leech Seed. Stealth Seed can be removed from the field by switching in a Grass-type or using the move Rapid Spin. Flying-types and Pokémon with the ability Levitate are immune to the effects of Stealth Seed
Secondary Effect: None

-Such a move would increase the popularity of Grass-types (especially Grass/Poison-types who can abosrb both Toxic Spikes and Stealth Seed) Grass-types will also be the primary recipients of this move increasing their usage in that regard as well.
-Rapid Spinners are even more of a necessity
-Helps increase the usage of Flying-types
-Makes Liquid Ooze a desirable ability. Just kidding! (this post needs some poor humor to keep all y'all interested and not turn down my proposal...)

That's just an example of CAM in action! It can determine factors of a metagame that CAP can't reach. Such a project has the potential on Smogon. We have the fuel, we just need to ignite it.
I am not sure how the details for a CAM Server on Shoddy Battle (or Pokémon Lab for the future) are going to be worked out, but this project will satisfy the theorymon-ing hunger all of us have in a way that CAP did not. CAM will prove that Smogon maintains its reputation of being an innovative Pokémon website in the community.
 
This is not the way the CAP project works; you do not simply create new moves for all Pokemon because you think it will have an effect on the metagame. New moves are only created for specific CAPs if and only if that move is required for the concept to succeed. Please read this guide to find out more.
 
I've read the guide before... but I'm not sure if you understood my idea.
It's not CAP; it's a different procedure with different outcomes.
I understand that new moves have been made to assist the CAP in performing its role.
Isn't that something we can do with the Pokémon Gamefreak has already given to us?
And you talked about CAM in reference to CAP.
Can we discuss this as if they were separate projects/ideas?
 
This could be done on your own PL/PO server. If enough people support this idea, you will be able to attract enough participants to make the project worthwhile. I would be interested in pursuing CAM if it could get enough people.
 
CAP wasn't started by Smogon as a site. It was through the drive and dedication of the people involved and DougJustDoug who led it and took the initiative to turn it into what it is today. If you're serious about this, you'll need to create a thread and keep it going with significant interest, start the server, etc. like CAP players did.
 
Firestorm said:
CAP wasn't started by Smogon as a site. It was through the drive and dedication of the people involved and DougJustDoug who led it and took the initiative to turn it into what it is today. If you're serious about this, you'll need to create a thread and keep it going with significant interest, start the server, etc. like CAP players did.
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I second this. If you can get enough people and enough know how to pull this off were fine with it. Of course, making the move yourself probably won't grab much appeal. Anyway IMO stealth seed wouldn't be too effective due to all the FWG cores running around.
 
The reason I linked to that guide is because the only reason that CAP is even a meaningful project is because we learn something about the metagame from it. Adding excellent new moves with new distribution completely morphs everything about the game, whereas adding a single Pokemon only changes the metagame insofar as how that specific Pokemon interacts with and is interacted with by other Pokemon. You learn something meaningful from adding a new Pokemon, whereas by adding a new move with new distribution, all you get is "That changed everything and this game is no longer even remotely close to the original metagame." You need to have better goals than "let's add this and see what happens" for a project like this to work, and quite frankly, your idea isn't conducive to such goals.
 
So... this idea should be scrapped?
I'm too inexperienced to even run something successful like this anyway, though I was going to try to. I don't know how to run a whole project on my own if that is what it'll come down to.
I also don't want to ruin Smogon's image by making a project like this. It just seemed that all of the speculation on new moves and their use made this project viable. I thought a project like this would allow us to actually see what Deck Knight and others have said about new moves and how they shape the metagame.
Thanks for everyone's comments on this; especially thanks to the ones looking at the big picture. Minor details and processes can be changed, but it's harder to entirely shift focus.
This was also a prototype/incomplete idea; it wasn't intended to be final.
So CAM is done for.
 
Rising_Dusk said:
The reason I linked to that guide is because the only reason that CAP is even a meaningful project is because we learn something about the metagame from it. Adding excellent new moves with new distribution completely morphs everything about the game, whereas adding a single Pokemon only changes the metagame insofar as how that specific Pokemon interacts with and is interacted with by other Pokemon. You learn something meaningful from adding a new Pokemon, whereas by adding a new move with new distribution, all you get is "That changed everything and this game is no longer even remotely close to the original metagame." You need to have better goals than "let's add this and see what happens" for a project like this to work, and quite frankly, your idea isn't conducive to such goals.
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I don't think I really understand the distinction you are attempting to draw. You say that CAP makes a minor change instead of a major one, even though the express purpose of Arghonaut was to shake up the metagame significantly. You also seem to suggest that this major/minor distinction is somehow tied to CAP's goal of learning "something meaningful." I fail to see the relationship between these two concepts.

More fundamentally, I am curious as to what "meaningful" information you think the CAP Project has produced. It has shown that extremely powerful Pokemon tend to do well, which I think we already knew. It has shown that changing the balance of power in the metagame can create unexpected vacuums for previously unpopular Pokemon to fill, which, again, was already common knowledge.

Certainly, we ask users to list a series of "questions to be answered" in their concept submissions, but there has never been any organized effort to decide, in retrospect, what the answers to those questions really are. In CAP10, the questions were:

1. How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
2. Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
3. How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
4. Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?
Click to expand...
1. Um, fairly useful I guess? Has Krilowatt really told us anything about this?
2. According to data from Krilowatt's use, it appears that the most-prepared-for type of threat is "those that die to a Magic Guard Life Orb sweeper with great typing and a huge movepool."
3. See below.
4. See Question 1.

Question 3 is where I think Krilowatt actually did give us some insight. One of the things great teambuilders can do is figure out how to adapt to metagame changes, like the introduction of Ubers to OU during suspect tests, or the introduction of new tutor moves partway through a generation. Krilowatt was designed to be an extremely—even artificially—influential Pokemon, and it gave us an opportunity to experiment with predicting how far the ripples are going to go and what effects they will have as they do.

Which brings us to "CAM." Why are you so sure that it could not do anything like this? What about the concept submission question, "How does the metagame react to an entirely new type of offensive threat?" set to be answered by, say, a Rock-type Overheat. Would it make Specs Tyranitar a major threat? Would it make Ho-oh acceptable in OU? Would Lucario start running bulk instead of 252 Atk/252 Spe on SD sets in order to come in and wall it with 4x resistance and set up on the switch? Or what if we just gave a strong physical Fire-type move to Flareon, to figure out if that really is all that's holding it back? How is this information less useful than the sorts of things that CAP tells us?

I agree with the criticism of this project that stems from the fact that it would require substantial interest and administrative wherewithal, neither of which seem to be present. But I disagree with you, Rising_Dusk, on the matter of its pointlessness. The CAP Project forums are full of circular logic (a problem of which, I should add, you are not generally a part); every time someone makes a suggestion, a lot of people say, "That's a bad suggestion because it's not how CAP works," with no justification based on why CAP works that way or why a particular change would not be an improvement. This seems like a rather conclusory encroachment of that sort of non-argument into another part of the site. "Because CAP has Goal X, a metagame modification project with Goal Y is doomed to failure." I disagree.

That said, outrageousdragondancer does appear to be correct that the idea is stillborn. Unless anyone actually cares enough to put a thread together and run a pilot study (I certainly don't), and unless a programmer capable of implementing new moves volunteers to help, I can't imagine that this will go anywhere.
 
@Res Ipsa Loquitur I took some time looking at CAP and I agree. Even CAP has it's critics, and "CAM" should too in order for the project to be fluid. If CAM takes off, I really don't want anyone to say "That isn't allowed because that's not how CAM works."
No one (including me) knows how CAM is even going to work.
I also want this project to be fun; I hope it will.

So, here are the questions/concerns I have with "CAM" (I've gotta change that name...)
a) Where am I allowed to make the CAM thread for all things associated with this project? People need to be aware of CAM in order for it to get started.
If that can be solved, the rest of the questions can be worked out in there.
b) If anyone interested in the potential of CAM is a programmer and as Res Ipsa Loquitur said implement the new moves, that'd be dandy. Personally, if someone could teach me how, I am very willing to learn and can implement the moves myself.
c) What server will this be on? Shoddy? Pokémon Lab!? How much does it cost? If money really is a factor, how do I make ends meet (I am 15 years old and, like many of you guys, free time is a rare, precious commodity.)?
d) How would I "control" the people on this new CAM thread? If any Mods are interested in CAM, they would be a great help!
e) I do need a team of people interested in CAM to pursue it. I'll do the hard work; don't let fear of pilot studies and analysis drive you away (please!)

I really think this could be an exciting project, and I'm willing to make changes, Rising Dusk, if this project isn't fit to your standards of what it should be, I can always make reasonable changes. Your comments have made me think a LOT about this project. I just need a thread and everything can get started albeit slowly...
 
Well, in my opinion, here is a decent way you could do this. Needs some smoothing out though.
#1 Decide how you want to change the metagame with this move. (I have no idea really what qualifies)
#2 Through some process figure out how to acheive this.
#3 Figure out what you are going to give this move to. THIS will be the difficult part. (The easiest way would simply to be to give it to pokes through 4th gen move tutor, and if its broken with another move, possible allow it to be bred into other pokes.)
#4 PLAYTEST Should be fun, and move pretty fast.
In a similar note, taking new moves from the fifth gen could be a good way to get this started. I mean playtesting psycho shock could be a lot of fun, especially because you don't even have to pick what to give it to. (great way to garner interest?) If anything, this will teach us how much one little move can change a metagame.
 
Res Ipsa Loquitur said:
(CAP Criticism)
Click to expand...
It's fine that you feel that way about CAP, but you're utilizing a logical fallacy known as the straw man. You're intentionally attacking CAP as a means to defend CAM, which is fallacious. Please focus on the matter at hand, which is the merit of the proposed CAM.
outrageousdragondancer said:
a) Where am I allowed to make the CAM thread for all things associated with this project? People need to be aware of CAM in order for it to get started.
Click to expand...
You would do this in the Stark forum.

If you want to seriously pursue it, it is not against the rules to do so. I am convinced, however, that this will see little support, particularly for the reasons I listed before which explain part of why CAP succeeded and how those assets are lacking here for CAM.
 
Rising_Dusk said:
It's fine that you feel that way about CAP, but you're utilizing a logical fallacy known as the straw man. You're intentionally attacking CAP as a means to defend CAM, which is fallacious. Please focus on the matter at hand, which is the merit of the proposed CAM.
Click to expand...

Actually, the straw man is a formal fallacy which occurs when one party provides only certain justifications for a position, chosen for their unpersuasiveness, and attempts to generalize criticism of these weak arguments to the greater position. By doing this, the fallacious party attempts to color the opposing position as requiring acceptance of indefensible or irrational propositions.

This is not what I did. Rather, I took what you claimed to be the single strongest justification for CAP's existence (providing "meaningful information" about the metagame) and explained why this was not a cognizable distinction between CAP and the "CAM" concept. This was not an unqualified criticism of CAP; I in fact pointed out that CAP10, for instance, did provide useful data about teambuilding. I think that CAP is an excellent project when it provides such results, which is usually. I simply disagree with your position that CAM is fundamentally incapable of doing the same.

If my post is fallacious, it is far more likely to have been a case of special pleading (failing to recognize that many of CAPs shortcomings would also apply to CAM) or ad hominem argumentation (pointing out the prevalence of circular logic in those forums could be construed as an attempt to deflect the line of discussion toward problems with users instead of problems with projects).

If anyone here is using a straw man technique, it's you, by pointing out only the weakest position one could possibly impute to my post, which is the special pleading argument. Your response is as ridiculous as it is supercilious. It's also insulting, and I'd appreciate it if you would be more respectful in the future.

Especially given that we are in total agreement about CAM (or what we in the legal profession might call "concurring in the judgment"): it's highly unlikely to generate the large interest level which has been thoroughly necessary to CAP's success. I really don't understand why you are taking this so personally.
 
You assume too much from my post. It is quite literally impossible to claim that I am either acting superior to you or insulting you by simply pointing out your logical fallacy and telling you to focus on the matter at hand. For the record, the straw man is an informal fallacy, and whether you accept that you used the straw man strategy or not is irrelevant; I hope that you step back, though, and realize where you went wrong.

That said, if you want to further pursue this discussion, PM me. This thread is for discussion of the OP, the CAM idea, and nothing else.
 
Whoa. Both of you guys are trying to get at each others neck with Techniques of Propoganda. Interestingly enough, there are some errors in the definitions you provide with the techs. you identify. I've got stuff to say about both of your arguments... lol AG; good times. If you guys want help with Prop, I'm happy to beef up your game; but let's get back to the topic.

@Aqueos Yep; right on target. I thought this was the opportune moment to start any "CAM." Testing the concept of "CAM" is now much easier than before (and since Smogon is really big on testing things, this is the best chance "CAM" has.)

@Aqueos, RD, Res... I've realized your comments are entirely true when evaluating CAP, but their transition to any "CAM" probably doesn't do any good.
Pokémon themselves can take on multiple roles based on the moves, natures, items, and abilities they use.
Moves, on the other hand, are completely fixed. Most walls like Blissey don't use Fire Blast, but a sweeper like Salamence wonderfully welcomes it in its movepool.
This is why assessing the topic with sorta vague/open-ended questions aren't effective. Moves will generally provide fewer different answers to those questions than Pokémon; in fact, they're almost direct, obvious answers.
The best way to make a concept would lie in a thesis or direct statement; a move could be easier to synthesize and analyze with "Move X needs to do Y because it will have an effect on Z"
The vertebrae of the concept relies on the bolded print above, not the letters.
This may provide a new look into the analysis on moves.
I plan on moving this discussion to an interest thread in Stark Mountain soon, but not immediately. Details need to be roughed out, and you guys are giving me good insight; so I'll learn. :)
 
Such large discussions...as Firestorm said, simply make a thread or start making threads and be dedicated to it. With enough dedication and thoughtful planning of how (initial) procedures should be worked out, this could take off. The big challenge is getting enough people to join up amidst the hype of Black/White. Then the next challenge is keeping the game alive after a long time, while staying true to the original view and goals of the project.

What you have is a minor but good first step, but I wonder if the game can stay relevant for a long period of time. Creating moves is much different than creating whole Pokemon. The balance could continually bounce back and forth unaturally.
 
i think this idea has immense potential. Adding moves like... say a ghost type rapid spin, or special dragon dance... has vast potential to affect the metagame in ways we cant possibly imagine. I wonder also how giving existing moves better distribution might effect the metagame as well.

This idea can be expanded to Items and abilities as well. but that might be getting ahead of ourselves
 
nice double post

i actually think this idea has lots of potential for all the same reasons that the cap project originally did. you should fire a pm to a cap forum moderator (or doug) asking if you could host this in the cap forum as a sort of sub-project. otherwise, a thread in stark mountain is where cap got started, so you would do the same thing here.

hosting a shoddy battle (or pokelab) server is free, though it requires you to leave a computer on 24/7. from what i've heard, adding pokemon in shoddy battle is difficult, but changing existing pokemon's movepools is easy.

if you do this, i would be very interested in getting involved.
 
This would be okay, but Stealth Seed sounds kinda broken. Stealth Seed + Celebi and Big Root + Giga Drain = death.
 
tawp64 said:
This would be okay, but Stealth Seed sounds kinda broken. Stealth Seed + Celebi and Big Root + Giga Drain = death.
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exactly. also, ghost type rapid spin is also pretty broken. this means as long as your spinner survives a few hits, hazards won't be up.
 
We're not trying to make broken things; we want to make moves that have an effect on the metagame, not destroy it. Just thought I'd point that out.
 
NightShadow said:
exactly. also, ghost type rapid spin is also pretty broken. this means as long as your spinner survives a few hits, hazards won't be up.
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What did I just say?

If you guys feel like stopping the "brokenness" of this project (the project which hasn't even begun to test those moves or even established those moves you call broken) then join the project if you want to try and have a say in it.

You guys are always welcome to join. Just don't hate something that's not full or complete.
 
Yeah, do you not understand the word 'example'? Nothing has happened with this yet (although I will make sure Flareon gets Flare Blitz if it's the last thing I do). I'd really like to help with this, it sounds really cool.
 
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