Kingdra (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

Kingdra

Status: Done, needs QC approval.

[Overview]
<p>Kingdra has good overall stats as well as very good typing, both offensive and defensive. Its STAB Dragon/Water coverage is only resisted by Empoleon, Shedinja and Ferrothorn outside of Ubers and its only weakness is Dragon. It has important resists and its role in the team is very important. Kingdra can be used on any team, but it fits best in a Rain team. It holds the title of one of the best sweepers in the rain. It can abuse Dragon Dance very well. Its Water-type moves even get an extra boost. Its movepool is a bit shallow, but good enough for what it needs to do. Kingdra becomes one of the fastest Pokemon in the rain and therefore should be a force to be reckoned with. Though now with Drizzle + Swift Swim banned, Kingdra has most of its reign. It is still a viable Pokemon, even without Swift Swim on Drizzle teams. </p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Fire
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest
evs: 4 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>This set can be very effective with some prediction. Hidden Power fire is to get past Ferrothorn, otherwise it will wall you disastrously. Hidden Power fighting can get you past Ferrothorn as well and grants a super effective move against Empoleon. Surf can be either used over Hydro Pump for better accuracy, or in the last slot to prevent the hidden powers to take IV points out of speed. Draco Meteor is a powerful move on its own, but can be utilized by Kingdra to get a lot of KO's. For the ability, Swift Swim can be used in conjunction with Rain Dance, but Sniper is viable on Drizzle teams. </p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>Hidden Power Electric could be used in the last slot to get past bulky waters, though it is not recommended to not use either Hidden Power Fire or Fighting. Hidden Power Fire shouldn't be used in conjunction with rain, as the power will be halved. Thouh if you use it on a team without Rain, it is very viable. This set is walled by Blissey terribly. Therefore one should pack a Blissey counter and take it out before this one comes in. It could also have problems with Snorlax and bulky grass Pokemon like Celebi. A Life Orb can be equipped to allow Kingdra to switch moves, but it loses some power in regards to a Choice Specs. </p>

[SET]
name: Mixdra
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Hidden Power Fighting / Outrage
item: Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 76 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>Kingdra can run a mixed set very well, though now with Drizzle + Swift Swim banned, it has lost some of its prevalence. With three powerful STAB move and two further boosted in rain, it can effectively rampage through teams in a matter of turns, which is necessary these days. It works very effectively as a wall-breaker as well. EVs are to fully exploit its powerful special attacks and the speed EVs are to outspeed scarfed Garchomp in the rain. </p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>Ferrothorn and Empoleon wall this set, but simple team support can be used to play around them. </p>

[SET]
name: Double Dance
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Waterfall
item: Lum Berry / Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>Pretty much the same set as Substitute + Double Dance, though this one attempts to set up without needing a lot of support from other team members. Lum Berry is the first option here because of status being so popular. Water/Dragon coverage is resisted by only a few, but there is a certain defensive core that completely shuts down any kind of Rain Dance using Kingdra. A combination of Gliscor, Ferrothorn and Jellicent is fatal for Kingdra, even with proper prediction it will be a pain in the neck. </p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>Dragon Dance can be swapped here for either Hydro Pump, Draco Meteor or Hidden Power Fighting. With a Rash or Mild nature you will have a mixed Rain Dancer. This way Kingdra will function as an excellent weather counter, being able to summon weather itself as well as a way to deal with the weather inducers and abusers of the respective weathers. To exploit Kingdra's bulk, an EV spread of 252 HP / 136 Atk / 120 Spe is viable to outspeed.</p>

[SET]
name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Waterfall
item: Leftovers / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>This is the same set which was a staple for Kingdra in the 4th Generation, and sadly will stay this way due to a complicated Drizzle + Swift Swim ban. Substitute protects it from Status and can grant it a free set-up turn. If you don't think you can manage to switch in without getting a status, then Lum Berry is very viable as it can allow to switch into a status move. Life Orb is viable too, though Leftovers gives it more durability. When used with Rain Dance, it's very viable to use a Life Orb though because of only 8 turns of rain and as such a small sweep. After 1 Dragon Dance it can OHKO a lot of top threats. Outrage and Waterfall give near-perfect Water/Dragon coverage, only resisted by Shedinja, Empoleon, and Ferrothorn outside of Ubers. Standard EVs go best with it. After one Dragon Dance, Waterfall OHKO's many many threats. Again, Sniper is viable if you want to use it on Drizzle teams. </p>

[Additional Set Comments]
<p>This set has trouble with some Phazers and taunters, namely Skarmory, Suicune and the new priority Taunters. Entry hazards can help Kingdra get some OHKOs. As for the EVs, max speed is used to ouspeed other Kingdra which would otherwise OHKO you with their Dragon-type move. However, it could drop some Speed for a bit more bulk. You could run either 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe to outspeed +1 positive base 100s, or 192 Atk / 240 SpA / 76 Spe to outspeed +1 neutral base 100s. To go mixed, substitute can be replaced by Hidden Power Fighting or Hydro Pump to have a special move against Ferrothorn. If you choose to do so, running a Naughty or Lonely nature is recommended. Hidden Power Fire is an option over Substitute too, but it's best used outside of rain. </p>

[SET]
name: ChestoRest
move 1: Rest
move 2: Dragon Dance
move 3: Outrage
move 4: Waterfall
item: Chesto Berry / Lum Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 144 HP / 160 Atk / 40 SpD / 164 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>The Water/Dragon coverage yet again. Offensive capabilities as well as defensive qualities combine in this set to potentially rampage through a lot of teams. Chesto Berry is the best option to trick your opponent that it seems beaten after its paralyzed, burned or poisoned, but it only gives Kingdra an opportunity to Rest the damage and status away and start sweeping. Ferrothorn completely walls this set sadly. Sniper can be used to have Kingdra on Drizzle teams and Swift Swim can be used with Rain Dance teams. </p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>The HP and Special Defense EVs are chosen so that Kingdra will survive at least two attacks from Life Orb Starmie and +1 Suicune. The priority Taunters as well as faster Taunters can break this set up, but they can be recognised and dealt with appropriately. Also, somewhat offensive phazers are a threat to this set. </p>

[Team Options]
<p>Kingdra can team up with a lot of Pokemon. Rain support can be very useful as well as a Wisher which could pass on Wish to Kingdra if it needs. It could team up with Heatran to counter both Rain and Sun teams, but it fits even better in a Rain Dance team. Kingdra also enjoys entry hazards since it'll force some switches here and there and allow important OHKO's after Stealth Rock damage and this is easier with Spikes on the battlefield as well. Politoed would have been the main partner for Kingdra, but now with the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, it is better that Kingdra is used on teams with solid Rain Dance users. </p>

[Optional Changes]
<p>Kingdra can utilize Yawn or Toxic to force switches, but that job is better left to less sweeping-capable Pokemon though it can be surprising. Disable could be used to force switches as well, but the turn is better used with a Dragon Dance or a Substitute. Hidden Power [Fire] can be helpful on the special sets to have something against Nattorei, to not get walled dramatically. It also grants a neutral move. On physical sets, it's possible to run a bit more bulk with 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe to outspeed +1 positive base 100s. On the special sets, the same can be done with 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe. On mixed sets, 192 Atk / 240 SpA / 76 Spe is good to outspeed +1 neutral base 100s. Sniper is not really a good option, as Swift Swim is much more useful for Kingdra. Kingdra could run a RestTalk set with Rest, Sleep Talk, Dragon Dance and Outrage/Waterfall, but it's rather a gimmick as Lum Berry can clear it from its status and the ChestoRest set is more efficient and takes less turns to pull off. Kingdra is better at sweeping than stalling. Rain Dance can be used to summon Rain without having to sacrifice of rain to switch to Kingdra, but the sets listed above are superior to any set with a slot used for Rain Dance. </p>

[Counters]
<p>Shedinja, Empoleon and Ferrothorn all resist its STAB moves. Bulky Water and Grass Pokemon like Celebi, Ludicolo, Suicune and Vaporeon can also wall certain sets of Kingdra. A defensive core of Ferrothorn and Jellicent (and possibly Gliscor) can shut down Kingdra. Ferrothorn also counters all sets that do not have Hidden Power Fire or Fighting. For the bulky waters, on special based (mixed) sets, Kingdra can use Hidden Power Electric to have something against them. If Kingdra is not in play, Tyranitar could come in to make the rain stop and turn it into a sandstorm. hippowdon can do the dame thing, but they can't take Kingdra's STAB attacks. Ninetales can utilize its ability to summon permanent sun. Doing so weakens one of Kingdra's STAB attacks. </p>

[Dream World]
<p>Swift Swim and Sniper are simply better than Damp. Kingdra can use Substitute with its speed to hide behind for an exploding move. Kingdra can't really exploit Damp to its benefit, so it shouldn't be used on it. Swift Swim makes it the dangerous rain sweeper it is today, and Damp takes away that potential. </p>

Is this formal or informal? If it's informal you need bullet points for everything but if it's formal you missed tags and need to write more.

Every set here is pretty much walled by Nattorei. Maybe try running HP Fire on the Specs set, as it gives perfect coverage with draco Meteor as well as a 4x effective attack on Nattorei

Removed the bullet points, wrote a bit more and gave HP Fire a mention.

I recomend hp fighting as it beats natorei and empoleon even in rain.

Also your still misiing paragraph tags. At every paragraph you must put
<p>text </p>

I personally would rather have Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse / Hydro Pump / HP [whatever] on the Specs set. :0 Or slash Surf over Hydro Pump. That HP Fire/Fighting is pretty much a necessity for getting the remaining coverage over those two that you don't hit.

Updated. As far as I can tell it's done, just needs QC approval.

HP Fire should be prioritised on the Choice Specs Set, with specs Draco Meteor's and Dragon Pulses you can get around water types, without hp fire you cannot get around Nattorei, so the last slot should be dedicated to beating Nattorei.

Does the DD+Sub set need Max speed or could it run some bulk?

Is Double Dance really worth a whole set this time around considering DrizzleToed?

panamaxis said:

Does the DD+Sub set need Max speed or could it run some bulk?

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I'm wondering the same actually.

Please make HP Fire the first option on the CS set. Also, it's safe to relegate HP Fighting to AC and leave just HP Fire / HP Electric as the main options for the set. The descriptions of each set are also pretty short, and for cases like Choice Specs in which you need to explain what each type of Hidden Power accomplishes, detailed descriptions happen to be pretty useful. Let's take a look at the following for example:

Choice Specs said:

• [Set Comments]
  <p>This set can be very effective with some prediction. Hidden Power Electric can work out very well in your advantage, because it can take out a bulky Water switch-in. Draco Meteor is a powerful move on its own, but can be utilized by Kingdra to get a lot of KO's. </p>
  
  [Additional Comments]
  <p>This set is walled by Blissey terribly. It also has problems with specially defensive Grass Pokemon like celebi. Therefore one should pack a Blissey counter and take it out before this one comes in. It could also have problems with Snorlax. </p>

Click to expand...

After reading this, it is obvious that I still have no idea of what all these Hidden Power achieve (bar the Electric type), for instance.

Let's answer these questions and make some changes to the OP and I'll sure approve of each set.

I've fixed the things you mentioned, I think. Let me know what it misses :).

panamaxis said:

HP Fire should be prioritised on the Choice Specs Set, with specs Draco Meteor's and Dragon Pulses you can get around water types, without hp fire you cannot get around Nattorei, so the last slot should be dedicated to beating Nattorei.

Does the DD+Sub set need Max speed or could it run some bulk?

Click to expand...

Kingdra mostly use with rain team. HP fire will gave you only 35 base power in rain, HP fighting may more better.

GameMaster0000 said:

Kingdra mostly use with rain team. HP fire will gave you only 35 base power in rain, HP fighting may more better.

Click to expand...

There's hardly a difference, even in rain, HP Fire and HP Fighting do the same damage in nattorei's case. Then you have to consider the chance that there is no rain (which is a likely scenario considering all the weather inducers), in which case HP Fire is better for nattorei.

Nexus said:

There's hardly a difference, even in rain, HP Fire and HP Fighting do the same damage in nattorei's case. Then you have to consider the chance that there is no rain (which is a likely scenario considering all the weather inducers), in which case HP Fire is better for nattorei.

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And even then, HP Fire does a bit more due to HP Fighting's necessary IVs. Though HP Fighting is considerable, other Pokemon can take care of Nattorei.

Mew said:

And even then, HP Fire does a bit more due to HP Fighting's necessary IVs. Though HP Fighting is considerable, other Pokemon can take care of Nattorei.

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Yes, one less point in SpA will seriously inhibit the strength of a level 100 pokemon.

Your post is ironic, because HP Fire is solely for Nattorei.

Um, in rain, Hydro Pump has 135 BP against 2x resists, right? Nothing can resist Dragon and 4x resist water at the same time, so...no need for Hidden Power on rain sets?

Darkamber8828 said:

Yes, one less point in SpA will seriously inhibit the strength of a level 100 pokemon.

Your post is ironic, because HP Fire is solely for Nattorei.

Um, in rain, Hydro Pump has 135 BP against 2x resists, right? Nothing can resist Dragon and 4x resist water at the same time, so...no need for Hidden Power on rain sets?

Click to expand...

I am actually talking about the speed drop. Yes, that one does matter. Other max neutral nature Kingdra will outspeed you with HP Fighting. Also, You do need hidden power because you will also get in situation without the rain.

Remove Double Dance; Drizzle Politoed renders Rain Dance obsolete. You can mention RD in OC as a backup in case Toed dies, but it's not anywhere near useful enough to warrant an actual set.

The EVs for the ChestoRest set should be tweaked slightly; currently, it runs 164 Speed, to outspeed +1/CS 100s when at +2. This should be increased to 176 EVs, to outspeed CS Garchomp at +2. I'm not sure if this spread is optimal, but the spread I run when using ChestoRest Kingdra is 144 HP / 148 Atk / 40 SpD / 176 Spe

Also, regarding the Hidden Power argument on the Specs set:

Other max neutral nature Kingdra will outspeed you with HP Fighting

Click to expand...

...and HP Fire. Which drops SpA as well, IIRC. And HP Fighting is probably better than HP Fire, since it hits both Empoleon and Nattorei for supereffective; I cba running calcs, but if HP Fighting can 2HKO Nattorei, it should be the primary option IMO. If it can't, then HP Fire is probably better, though make sure to mention it's basically pointless vs HP Fighting on a Rain team. In any case, both are worth a slash, while HP Electric should be mentioned in AC; previously, when Empoleon was the only OU resistor of Water+Dragon, HP Electric made sense; however, now that Nattorei exists, and it resists Electric, it's a very poor option, especially when HP Fighting hits both Emp and Natt SE.

I've started Gen5 from the start with a bulky approach to my EV sets, and it has proved worthwhile. While I don't have damage calcs to back me up (I've not gotten that in depth in my team building yet), I've found that Kingdra with some bulk is just as effective as Kingdra without bulk, especially when Rain is in effect. I put EVs so that he has 201 Speed and after a Dragon Dance in the rain, nothing is faster, and if they get rid of my rain, I probably already have another DD under my belt, so I'm still faster than almost the entire game. Bulk pisses people off who build Pokemon to 1 or 2hko specific Pokemon that are "standard" 6/252/252 EV spread.

Also, you could be more concise in your introduction to Kingdra. You seem to get rather repetitive talking about the rain, when I think some reorganization of your intro would allow you to remove some of your unnecessary references to rain.

domeface said:

Remove Double Dance; Drizzle Politoed renders Rain Dance obsolete. You can mention RD in OC as a backup in case Toed dies, but it's not anywhere near useful enough to warrant an actual set.

The EVs for the ChestoRest set should be tweaked slightly; currently, it runs 164 Speed, to outspeed +1/CS 100s when at +2. This should be increased to 176 EVs, to outspeed CS Garchomp at +2. I'm not sure if this spread is optimal, but the spread I run when using ChestoRest Kingdra is 144 HP / 148 Atk / 40 SpD / 176 Spe

Also, regarding the Hidden Power argument on the Specs set:

...and HP Fire. Which drops SpA as well, IIRC. And HP Fighting is probably better than HP Fire, since it hits both Empoleon and Nattorei for supereffective; I cba running calcs, but if HP Fighting can 2HKO Nattorei, it should be the primary option IMO. If it can't, then HP Fire is probably better, though make sure to mention it's basically pointless vs HP Fighting on a Rain team. In any case, both are worth a slash, while HP Electric should be mentioned in AC; previously, when Empoleon was the only OU resistor of Water+Dragon, HP Electric made sense; however, now that Nattorei exists, and it resists Electric, it's a very poor option, especially when HP Fighting hits both Emp and Natt SE.

Click to expand...

HP fire does not take a speed IV. Anyways, I gave both already a mention, so what exactly are you trying to get done?

@Hylian: Thanks, I will.

Mew said:

HP fire does not take a speed IV.

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Yes it does.

Anyways, I gave both already a mention, so what exactly are you trying to get done?

Click to expand...

HP Fighting should be the primary option, and HP Electric should be moved to AC. Also, I'd suggest adding Surf as a tertiary option for people who don't wish to lose a Speed IV (I know HP Electric does this too, but its only use is against Empoleon, who is dealt with just as effectively with HP Fighting).

So the fourth slot should be [ HP Fighting / HP Fire / Surf ], rather than [ HP Fire / HP Electric / HP Fighting ]. Depending on the exact damage done to common Nattorei sets (of which I'm unaware since last I checked the Nattorei thread was locked), it may be better to switch HP Fire and Fighting, but given that both Kingdra and Nattorei will often be seen on Rain teams, HP Fire often becomes no better than HP Fighting vs Nattorei, and far worse vs Empoleon, so it should probably be the primary option.

Wait, I got his Speed mixed up with Kabutops. I don't put any EVs into Speed for Kingdra's Dragon Dance set on Rain Dance teams, now that I've got team builder open.

Kingdra (M) @ Leftovers/Life Orb/Lum Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
354 HP/317 Atk/226 Def/203 SAt/226 SDf/201 Spd
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Waterfall
- Substitute

The Rain almost guarantees you're getting the Sub up unless you're against another Swift Swimmer. Leftovers helps you survive longer if your plan gets messed up, Life Orb will help you KO faster, and Lum Berry is an option in case you come in on Toxic Spikes or to ignore the post-Outrage confusion. Of course, this set is suggested in rain-themed teams, as without rain, you'd want to put some EVs into Speed.

I was a little disappointed to see no Special Attack sets listed. With so many people expecting physical, a special based set will surely surprise, and if not, it will do some hefty damage.

Kingdra (M) @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SAtk / 104 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
330 HP/203 Atk/225 Def/(474)316 SAt/225 SDf/230 Spd
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

230 Speed is so he's faster than base Speed 95 Pokemon and max Speed neutral-to-speed nature Tyranitar without rain, and beats max Speed neutral-to-speed natured base Speed 100 Pokemon who can get a +1 to Speed boost (aka Salamence and Urugamosu) in the rain. The items can be interchanged to your needs, though I highlighted what I suggested. You can choose for the higher powered item with more damaging moves that have less than perfect accuracy, or you can go with the less damaging moves and still boost them with some mixing at your disposal since Life Orb doesn't move lock you. HP Fighting should put a huge dent in Tyranitar and Empoleon, as mentioned, and the other moves are rather self explanatory.

Hope this helped ^^

The.Lost.Hylian said:

Wait, I got his Speed mixed up with Kabutops. I don't put any EVs into Speed for Kingdra's Dragon Dance set on Rain Dance teams, now that I've got team builder open.

Kingdra (M) @ Leftovers/Life Orb/Lum Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
354 HP/317 Atk/226 Def/203 SAt/226 SDf/201 Spd
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Waterfall
- Substitute

The Rain almost guarantees you're getting the Sub up unless you're against another Swift Swimmer. Leftovers helps you survive longer if your plan gets messed up, Life Orb will help you KO faster, and Lum Berry is an option in case you come in on Toxic Spikes or to ignore the post-Outrage confusion. Of course, this set is suggested in rain-themed teams, as without rain, you'd want to put some EVs into Speed.

I was a little disappointed to see no Special Attack sets listed. With so many people expecting physical, a special based set will surely surprise, and if not, it will do some hefty damage.

Kingdra (M) @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SAtk / 104 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
330 HP/203 Atk/225 Def/(474)316 SAt/225 SDf/230 Spd
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

230 Speed is so he's faster than base Speed 95 Pokemon and max Speed neutral-to-speed nature Tyranitar without rain, and beats max Speed neutral-to-speed natured base Speed 100 Pokemon who can get a +1 to Speed boost (aka Salamence and Urugamosu) in the rain. The items can be interchanged to your needs, though I highlighted what I suggested. You can choose for the higher powered item with more damaging moves that have less than perfect accuracy, or you can go with the less damaging moves and still boost them with some mixing at your disposal since Life Orb doesn't move lock you. HP Fighting should put a huge dent in Tyranitar and Empoleon, as mentioned, and the other moves are rather self explanatory.

Hope this helped ^^

Click to expand...

Umm, both sets you listed were already there. xD

About the Hidden Power types, I will mention that both types are viable.

Also, is it done now?

Wow, I have no idea how I missed that ?_?

Quality approvers, is it done now?

The inclusion of Double Dance needs to be discussed. I don't think it's worth a set anymore, but that's just me.