Quagsire (OU Analysis)

<p>Quagsire is a forgettable pokemon due to its low base stat total, and its competition with his fellow bulky waters in particular Swampert. Although these flaws are admittedly crippling in the OU environment, at a closer glance his ground typing, access to Recover, Water Absorb, and Encore allow him to fufill a unique role in the tier. Quagsire also hard counters all variants of Starmie, a feat very few Pokemon can muster. It can also hold out fairly well against Metagross and Tyranitar. Do not play Quagsire as an inferior Swampert, but if your team requires Quagsire's niche, he will truly shine.<p>


http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/quagsire

Quagsire
[SET]
name: OU Utility Counter
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Encore
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic/Ice Punch
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
ability: Water Absorb
evs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD

Why should this set be on-site:

• Quagsire has Encore, Recover, ground typing, and Water Absorb to give it a niche over other bulky waters.
• One of the few hard counters to Life Orb Starmie in the game if it lacks Grass Knot as Ice Beam caps out at 28.4% - 33.5%.
• It can handle Agility Metagross, and many others pretty well as Jolly Life Orb Earthquake can only 3HKO with a calc of 39.6% - 46.7%, while you can 2HKO with Earthquake or Recover stall Life Orb.
• Many others include HP Ice Zapdos, Vaporeon without Toxic, Suicune, Tyranitar, Tentacruel, Swampert, Jirachi, Jolteon, Empoleon without Grass Knot, Flygon, Gyarados, Scarfed Rotom, Heatran, and some more less common OU pokemon. (Electivire, Hippowdon, Snorlax.)
• Other spreads such as Impish 252HP/252Def/6SpD, and Careful 252HP/6Def/252SpD are viable. However the Impish spread cannot tank Choice Band Tyranitar, Swords Dance Infernape, DD Dragonite, and Jolly Lucario as well as Swampert can, which makes it largely outclassed. The max SpD spread is viable, but the hint of defense helps against pokemon such as Agility Metagross and Scarfed Flygon from 2HKOing you. Specially Defensive spreads are preferred as most of the pokemon Quagsire can check are specially based, and one of the major selling points of using Quagsire is to counter Starmie.
• A viable member of a fire/water/grass core, which are everywhere in the current state of the OU metagame.
• Toxic is preferred to hit the majority of things where Earthquake just doesn't cut it, and to Recover stall just like the way Gliscor can. Encore is similar to Taunt in this respect. Toxic is especially important since Quagsire does not have a stellar attack stat, but Ice Punch is viable to check Flygon, Gliscor, and Dragonite with more ease. Ice + Ground offer nearly perfect coverage, only not hitting Bronzong or Shedinja.
• Has Yawn, Stone Edge and Haze, but those moves seem to be better left to other pokemon in the OU metagame.

Teammates & Counters:

• As a bulky water, it can work great on fire/water/grass cores. A Spiker Roserade in particular works well as to absorb Toxic Spikes which can cripple Quagsire, while using Encore to force switches and to rack up spikes Damage. Tentacruel can lay Toxic Spikes to aid Quagsire, absorb Toxic Spikes which plague Quagsire, and can Rapid Spin hazards away to extend its life span. Quagsire in return can take Thunderbolts aimed at Tentacruel and stall things out potentially with the Toxic Spikes.
• Mixed Dragonite helps it from being spike fodder. Quagsire can take on random Stone Edges aimed at Dragonite while dealing with certain steels, and Dragonite can check the grass pokemon which beat Quagsire.
• Works great with Specially Defensive Skarmory as Encore can force alot of switches to rack up risidual damage, while Skarmory can cover Quagsire's grass weakness. Quagsire in return can also handle Heatran, Zapdos, Scarfed Rotom, and Jolteon
• Forretress makes a good partner for similar reasons as Skarmoy, except Forretress can Rapid Spin. Rapid Spinners in general make good partners as Quagsire is prone to being spike fodder if you aren't careful.
• Although uncommon, Togekiss can work quite well since it can deal with the grass pokemon which plague Quagsire. Togekiss can also boost up with Nasty Plot to OHKO Skarmory, and Rotom. Quagsire in return can take on Zapdos, Scarfed Rotom, Jolteon, and something to throw into Stone Edges from the likes of Scarfed Tyranitar and Flygon among others. Togekiss suffers from a lack of resistences, and Encore gives it plenty of chances to switch in.
• Mixed Infernape makes a great partner to this set as well because his counters in Vaporeon and Starmie get handled by Quagsire, while Mixed Infernape can break grass pokemon, Skarmory, and Forretress.
• Mixed Tyranitar makes a great partner for Quagsire due to the ability of Quagsire being able to Encore Starmie, and then switch in Tyranitar to Pursuit it. Sand support is appreciative with Quagsire, and Tyranitar can break Forretress/Skarmory, Hidden Power Grass Heatran and Zapdos which Quagsire fails to win against.
• Counters to Quagsire include Skarmory, Forretress, Shaymin, Breloom, Celebi, Roserade, and Defensive Rotom.

When you say Stone helps to check Zapdos, Zapdos can actually just pressure stall you out of Stone Edge like its nothing. In fact, against physically defensive Zapdos, you are only dishing out barely 30% on average (when NOT Roosting). Against Standard SubRoost, its not a 2HKO. The same goes for any variant of Dragonite and not being 2HKOed.

Now, I'm surprised Ice Punch isn't mentioned anywhere in this analysis. Ice Punch can greatly help against Pokémon such as Flygon, Gliscor in certain circumstances, and a more reliable way to take down Dragonite (that lack Roost).

That is true about Zapdos and Dragonite. I wrote this on basically no sleep, so I will fix that. Thanks for the heads up!

I will mention Ice Punch for Flygon and Dragonite especially, since Gliscor can just keep on Roosting on it. Standard LO Shaymin takes about 30% from Ice Punch, so no point in mentioning hitting Grass pokemon pretty much.

Should I drop the slash on Stone Edge? I mean.. it could hit Gyarados which can Taunt you, but other than that it doesn't seem to do a whole lot.

I'd say mention Stone Edge in AC. This isn't UU with Moltres running around.

True, I will do that. If I wanted to use a Bulky Water to counter to Gyarados, I would use Vaporeon or Suicune any day.

You might as well use yawn over earthquake, and toxic the switch in, because the closer the set it to Swampert, the less reason we should use it. Besides, it's attack is so low, you might as well force switches and recommend the usage of entry hazards. Mention a good teammate as Gyarados, which works great as it counters the grass type moves (neutral) and Quagsire takes the electric moves like a boss.

I think the set really needs Earthquake simply because you need STAB to just hurt things right off the bat. Earthquake lets you hit the steels/Tyranitar that you check for a sizable chunk. It also makes sure you aren't a complete loser against Taunt Heatran.

Yawn I am not completely sold on, so I am awaiting opinions on where I should put it without dropping Earthquake. Gyarados can work as a teammate, but Gyarados really can't switch into bulky grass types without getting 2HKO'd by Rocks.

I disagree, with 85 base power, Quagsire can't really do a lot to most common Pokemon that are not weak to it, and those that are won't switch into Quagsire.

Damage Calcs.

EQ at

- 4/0 Starmie 41.8% - 49.4% -- A guaranteed 3HKO, not really a check, he'll probably switch after the first turn without taking any serious damage (Starmie dies from anything anyways.)

- 60/0 Metagross 48.1% - 57% -- A 2-3HKO, which could end in win or lose (mostly win)

- 236/20 Metagross 41.7% - 48.9% -- A guaranteed 3HKO, nothing to be proud of since Metagross outspeeds and also 3HKOs you, and possibly come back in for an explosion later on.

NOW, THESE ARE THE SETS THAT IT COUNTERS, AND NOT ALL TEAMS HAVE THESE POKES.

I'll get to the neutral pokes later on, I'm getting behind on homework.



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The set obviously needs Eq...Quagsire needs something outside of a Base 75 powered Ice Punch to hit stuff with.

As for the set, it seems OU viable to me. I might test it a bit first but it looks fine.

My only question is what do the Defensive EVs accomplish?

Also, if this were to get approved, I think its important to capitalize on the differences between Quagsire and Swampert draw a comparison in the writeup. Swampert, more than other bulky waters is Quagsires main competition.

Belphagor said:

I disagree, with 85 base power, Quagsire can't really do a lot to most common Pokemon that are not weak to it, and those that are won't switch into Quagsire.

Damage Calcs.

EQ at

- 4/0 Starmie 41.8% - 49.4% -- A guaranteed 3HKO, not really a check, he'll probably switch after the first turn without taking any serious damage (Starmie dies from anything anyways.)

- 60/0 Metagross 48.1% - 57% -- A 2-3HKO, which could end in win or lose (mostly win)

- 236/20 Metagross 41.7% - 48.9% -- A guaranteed 3HKO, nothing to be proud of since Metagross outspeeds and also 3HKOs you, and possibly come back in for an explosion later on.

NOW, THESE ARE THE SETS THAT IT COUNTERS, AND NOT ALL TEAMS HAVE THESE POKES.

I'll get to the neutral pokes later on, I'm getting behind on homework.



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You can Toxic Starmie and force it out, while it can't do crap back. Barely anything can claim to be a "hard counter" to Starmie hold the rare Grass Knot/Trick sets. If you do not run Toxic, you can Encore it into Ice Beam and switch in an Ice resist. Encore is extremely useful, you won't believe how many situations you can use it in.

Life Orb Metagross loses if it runs Earthquake and Jolly since you can keep on using Recover and Earthquake when needed.

Metagross needs Life Orb and Adamant to have a shot at winning, and no Agility Metagross runs that much bulk and a Life Orb. Also besides... Explosion can break anything in half except the steels and ghosts.

Jolly is the standard on Agility Metagross now simply because how how ridiculously popular Scarfed Flygon is.

Thanks Megan Fox, tell me how it goes! I really hope other people can at least give this set a chance. If Quality Control is against putting this on site, I wouldn't be offended. I just think it is a good idea which I think should be considered.

The defense EV's prevent Jolly Scarfed Flygon from 2HKOing you with Outrage, and make Jolly Agility Gross's Earthquake a 3HKO if it holds a Life Orb. It also makes Life Orb Starmie's Ice Beam cap out at 33% so if it manages to get max damage every single time, it 4HKO's. I also agree with comparing the strengths of Swampert and Quagsire if this gets passed by Quality Control. If you are running Quagsire, you should stick to its strengths otherwise you are better off running Swampert.

Edit: It can even survive Scarfed Heatran's Hidden Power Grass, and throw back an Earthquake 78.2% - 92.4%. Gengar's Life Orb Shadow Ball also does 42.9% - 50.5%, which allows you to Encore it, and switch in a counter.

It also allows you to Encore it while it tries to use Substitute with little fear to yourself. It is a shaky Gengar check, but it can pseudo check it with Encore nonetheless while Swampert would just get worn down with repeated Shadow Balls/doesn't have Encore or Recover.

I'd say add a spinner as a teammate, because you say Skarmory and Forry are counters, so they'd come in and start setting up Spikes. Other than that, looks good =)

Yeah, I agree with that. I will add that into the OP after I take a nap.

Although Toxic Spikes are uncommon, you might want to mention Roserade and Tentacruel to absorb them, as well as a small mention with Rapid Spin. Also, you should specify the ability, as it has Water Absorb and Damp.

I added the mention of Roserade, Tentacruel and spinners in general.

Maybe mention Mixed Tyranitar as a teammate? It's not exactly the most defensive of Pokemon, but it does provide Sandstorm support and has no problem with roughly half of Quagsire's counters. It also lures in Scizor and Metagross, which Quagsire can set up on with Encore. I realize this does give your team two weaknesses to grass, though. :/

Toxic Spikes removes the need for Toxic, make sure to reiterate that somewhere.

Love this set in OU, it's so useful with entry hazzard support. Good luck with getting this on site.

Thanks for the post! Tyranitar as a teammate? Perhaps, but I am going to test him with Quagsire a bit first. It does seem to make sense, but I have never used Quagsire with Tyranitar before.

Toxic hits levitators, and is good if Toxic Spikes get spun or soaked up by Roserade or something. However yes, if you run Toxic Spikes support, Toxic loses alot of its value.

Definitely list Tyranitar as a teammate - mixed set with Pursuit seems the best, imo. Quagsire can switch in on Gengar, take a Shadow Ball, Encore it, then you can switch in Tar and Pursuit it for the kill without fear of Focus Blast. Then when they send in Skarm or Forry assuming you're Scarfed, you nail them with a Fire Blast.

Since this does so good against Starmie, maybe mention MixApe as a partner? It can really abuse the absence of Star, because if it's on someone's team it's usually their only Ape counter and Quagsire deals with it incredibly well.

I've used this set and can definitely attest to its effectiveness. Lizard, you might want to consider linking your RMT utilizing it so everyone can see the kind of team he fits well in.

Will do. I didn't even think about Mix Ape, but it seems viable.

Although this isn't my best team, the Team of Storms is an excellent example of a team utilizing Quagsire to patch its weakness to Starmie.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85776

This looks good.

QC APPROVED (1/3)

Thanks Setsuna, any other suggestions?

Don't forget that you'll have to write the Overview, OO, and Checks and Counters section too.

QC APPROVED (2/3)

meant to do this earlier, sorry about that.

Oglemi said:

Don't forget that you'll have to write the Overview, OO, and Checks and Counters section too.

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Mhm, I know that. However, I need a third Quality Control stamp of approval first correct?

Megan_Fox said:

QC APPROVED (2/3)

meant to do this earlier, sorry about that.

Click to expand...

Its no problem, and thanks. :)

LizardMan said:

Mhm, I know that. However, I need a third Quality Control stamp of approval first correct?

Click to expand...

Actually, you could just go ahead and write them. It makes it easier to QC because they can check for mistakes in those sections before it's stamped :p

Bumping this so it can get its third QC stamp; I love this set and would really like to see it on-site.