Castform (Update)

Aeron Ee1

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Quality Control: 2/2

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(uragg)
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Grammar Prose: 2/2:

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(zdrup15)

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/castform

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[Overview]

<p>Castform is a cute Pokemon with a unique ability; unfortunately, that is the extent of his advantageous traits.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
move 4: Energy Ball / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Modest
evs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is Castform's best chance at being competitively viable. BoltBeam forms Castform's attacking core, with a Fire-type move rounding off the coverage perfectly. Energy Ball is mostly filler, but is useful against Water / Ground-types, who are neutral to BoltBeam. Same goes for Shadow Ball, but for Ghost- and Psychic-types. With these four moves, Castform hits quite a bit of the tier super effectively, which is good since he lacks a reliable STAB attack, so anything he can't hit super effectively can quite easily shrug off any of his attempts.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A boosting item is pretty much necessary if Castform wants to be offensively capable at all; Life Orb provides the highest boost possible (while still maintaining the ability to switch moves), but since Castform hits so many Pokemon super effectively, Expert Belt is also a viable option, with a similar boost and no recoil. The EVs are an attempt to bolster Castform's lackluster stats for sweeping, putting Castform a point above Jolly Torterra. A Timid nature and 244 Speed EVs can be used if you want Castform to outpace neutral-natured base 80 Speed Pokemon. The remaining EVs can then be added to HP for bulk.</p>

<p>Castform is a slow, relatively weak special attacker; therefore, we can say that he'll appreciate entry hazard, dual screen, paralysis, and wallbreaker support. Uxie can do the former three well, and also makes a great fallback Pokemon when facing powerful attackers. Blaziken is pretty much undisputed as the best wallbreaker in the tier, although Nidoking can give him a run for his money. Castform really shouldn't be used in any competitive team, so it's recommended that you just replace him with one of the many other, better special attackers in the tier if you're at least a little bit serious about winning, and go with their team options.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>A Choice Specs set can be used to make up for Castform's bad Special Attack stat, but even then he lacks the power, and without the ability to switch moves, he becomes even easier to wall. A physical set is a bad idea since the only viable physical attacks Castform learns are Return, Facade, and Avalanche. Thunder Wave and Toxic can cripple switch-ins, but running either will cut coverage. Weather Ball can be a great 100 Base Power STAB move if Castform is being used on a weather team, and if Sunny Day is the weather of choice, then SolarBeam becomes viable too.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>If it's not hit super effectively, it counters Castform. In UU, this includes (but most definitely not limited to): Absol, Aggron, Ambipom, Arcanine, Blaziken, Chansey, Clefable, Drapion, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Houndoom, Kangaskhan, Ludicolo, Mesprit, Milotic, Miltank, Primeape, Spiritomb, Ursaring, Uxie, and Weezing. Heck, even some Pokemon that are hit super effectively can counter Castform if they're bulky enough, like Milotic, Mismagius, and Registeel, among others.</p>

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Credits
  • QC Period - Defense
  • GP Check 1 - Fatecrashers
  • GP Check 2 - zdrup15
 
Castform is so cool...I really wish it had better stats.

For Specs, Fire Blast should be slashed over Flamethrower since Castform needs all the power it can get. I would also slash Life Orb on there to take better advantage of that coverage. Otherwise it's too easy to wall by just switching in a resist. Not that it really matters, since it'll probably just get 1-2 hits in and die.

The weather sets are nearly impossible to actually use successfully; as a weather supporter it gets 2HKOed by everything, and as a weather sweeper it's completely outclassed by every other weather sweeper. If you do end up keeping them, at least take Hail off the Hail set and recommend Snover as a partner so it can use a Life Orb and four attacking moves.
 
OK, well this set is from the locked thread reliking tried to do:

[SET]
name: Anti-Weather
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Ice Beam / Thunder Wave
nature : Modest
item: Life Orb
evs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe

Honestly, I think this is the best Castform can do. I would maybe even venture to say that Castform may be able to pull off a Scarf set, but that's about it.

IMO, Castform cannot effectively pull off any of the sets in the OP as is. If it can, I really would like to see some logs. I think that's the best way to actually figure out what Castform can actually do.
 
I think I actually tried using a set like that once Oglemi, and it didn't work. Unlike Pory2/Gardevoir/Golduck, it can't outspeed any actual weather sweepers, so even if you switch in as they set up or on a revenge kill or on a move you resist (after Forecast), you still get KOed before you can attack. It might beat Victreebel that lack Sleep Powder and Sludge Bomb, but other than that...

Obviously Castform won't be doing much no matter what set it runs, but I think it's better to stick to a generic Choice/LO set rather than build it for a specific role that it can't actually fulfill.
 
Well then if we're going to treat Castform just like a Delcatty or Spinda, then I'm just going to lock this. If Castform cannot effectively pull off just a simple LO set, then that'll be it.

I don't want to waste time and resources on a Pokemon that can't be effectively used in UU.
 
this is pure theorymon but I do think what Oglemi posted is the best Castform can do. The sole purpose of Castform is to come in on a revenge kill, NOT come in on an attack, and kill the weather sweeper while surviving its attack. I'd also like to recommend Expert Belt as the primary item, no slashes. This is because Castfrom needs all the HP it can get and cannot afford to lose any. You'll see later with my calcs...:

I did calcs with Oglemi's spread, but Expert Belt over Life Orb. All enemy calculations assume Life Orb and max Atk/SpA. All calcs assume the appropriate weather.

Modest Gorebyss HP Grass to Castform 81.8% - 96.6%
Adamant Kabutops +0 Stone Edge 88.6% - 104.3%
Jolly Kabutops +0 Stone Edge 80.6% - 95.1%
Adamant Qwilfish +0 Poison Jab 62.2% - 73.2%
Modest Omastar HP Grass 82.5% - 97.2%

Castform Thunder vs Gorebyss, Kabutops, Omastar, Qwilfish 100%
Castform can't beat Ludicolo.

Adamant Tangrowth +0 Earthquake 107.1% - 126.2%
Jolly Tangrowth +0 Earthquake 97.2% - 115.1%
Modest Exeggutor Psychic 84% - 99.1%
Modest Victreebel Hidden Power Rock 75.1% - 88.6%
Adamant Shiftry +0 Sucker Punch 64.6% - 76%
Modest Shiftry +0 Dark Pulse 60% - 70.5%

Jolly Arcanine ExtremeSpeed 41.5% - 48.9%
Timid Moltres Air Slash 70.5% - 83.1%
Timid Specs Typhlosion Full HP Eruption 100.3% - 118.2%
Timid Specs Typhlosion HP Rock 83.7% - 98.5%
Rash Scarf Typhlosion Full HP Eruption 73.2% - 86.5%
Rash Scarf Typhlosion HP Rock 61.5% - 72.6%

Fire-type Castform Fire Blast vs Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Shiftry, Victreebell 100% (kills probably every Grass type in Sun... not even Specially Defensive Venusaur survives this in Sun)
Castform HP Rock to Moltres 95.6% - 113.4%
Castform HP Rock to Typhlosion 51.5% - 61.3%
Castform HP Rock to 0HP Arcanine 50.8% - 59.8%


So... Castform really needs Rapid Spin as a teammate....
 
Like said above, why would you use a Hail set when Snover can activate permanent hail? With as frail as castform is, you don't want to be wasting turns setting up when you could just be attacking.
Also, tbh, weather ball is outclassed in most cases. Fire Blast should be slashed over weather ball on the sun set, since it's actually reliable outside of the weather. (plus being stuck with a 50 bp move if you've been taunted is unacceptable)

Plus why no mention of weather ball becoming a rock type move in sandstorm?

Slash fire blast over flamethrower on the specs set. Hell, I'd slash thunder as an option besides thunderbolt, Castform NEEDS the extra power (same with Blizzard vs Ice Beam)
 
YaM's calcs are better than I expected, but I still don't like the set. Most of the sweepers it "beats" commonly carry boosting moves. Victreebel and Exeggutor can also just put Castform to sleep. And as YaM mentioned, if Castform has taken any prior damage (like SR) that's enough for many others to beat it. It's not much of a weather check when it:

1) Can't switch in on any weather sweeper
2) Can't revenge kill any weather sweeper that has a boost
3) Needs Rapid Spin support to beat those that aren't boosted
4) Even then, always loses to Ludicolo, Tangrowth, Arcanine, and Typhlosion

Coming in after a KO and forcing out an unboosted Pokemon isn't very impressive.

I think a generic LO/Specs/ExpertBelt set (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Energy Ball/HP Ground/HP Rock) can work. It won't be great, but it will do some decent damage with that movepool. But don't advertise Castform specifically as "Anti-Weather" when that's simply not a role it can fill. I wish it was, that ability and movepool are obviously meant for it, but the reality is it just doesn't have the stats.
 
honestly, i think this is a scenario where it just sucks so badly nobody would ever use it. i guess the weather counter set is functional, but just barely, and for a niche job it's really really bad at doing it. honko's post was pretty spot on, and the only set i'd approve would be a simple attacking set like the one currently first on-site. and imo the overview and OO are pretty accurate already lol, so an update should just focus on writing the main set and expanding checks and counters. and i guess the weather sets should be moved to OO because they suck.

it's a cool pokemon, but it is just incredibly terribad. my 2 cents.
 
Well, if QC determines Castform to be on the same competitive level as Delcatty and Delibird, then they can go ahead and reject this if they want. I don't want to spend anymore time on this than we need to.
 
well it seems to be a little bit above those pokemon, but just barely because of its good movepool. i personally would be fine with the analysis on site with just a slight change in the first set and all the weather sets moved to OO.

so i guess this is QC APPROVED 1/2 on the choice specs set (slash life orb or expert belt and mention lefties) and QC REJECTED 1/2 on everything else
 
uragg said:
well it seems to be a little bit above those pokemon, but just barely because of its good movepool. i personally would be fine with the analysis on site with just a slight change in the first set and all the weather sets moved to OO.

so i guess this is QC APPROVED 1/2 on the choice specs set (slash life orb or expert belt and mention lefties) and QC REJECTED 1/2 on everything else
Click to expand...

QC added, changed to new format, and edits made.
I will agree that Castform has so much potential, but the stats aren't there. C'mon Troll Freak, give it an evo ;)
Anyways, 1 more QC required.
 
I would like to object to the current spread with 252 Speed. Honestly there are almost no base 60s or 70s in the tier running max speed (you try to name one?) Also my damage calcs earlier in the thread assumed a bulkier spread to allow it to survive blows from weather sweepers which is its purpose right?

I propose 160 HP 252 SpA 96 Spd, outspeeds Jolly Rhyperior, Adamant Aggron. Only worthwhile Pokemon you fail to outspeed with this spread are max speed Torterra and Jolly Aggron, meanwhile you gain more chance of surviving attacks. Also mention Rapid Spin support as my calcs show that many more weather sweepers can OHKO even this variant of Castform with either Spikes or SR
 
i'd say change item order to life orb / expert belt and then move choice specs to AC because castform's main draw is its movepool, and with super effective coverage it's better to be able to hit a lot of stuff than to get the power boost from specs, especially since it lacks a spammable move.

as for the ev spread, YaM has a point, i actually didn't really look at the spread at all i was just approving the concept of the set lol. i'd definitely recommend dropping only to jolly torterra (233), which would be a spread of 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe with a modest nature, since that's a great speed target for anything below base 80. the bulk won't be missed that much because castform really isn't built to be a weather counter to those pokes and shouldn't be trying to take those attacks most of the time, as i pretty much agree 100% with honko's post. its niche is more of a weak, relatively slow attacker, as it does that job not piss-poorly at least.

so tl;dr

spread is 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe modest
item should be life orb / expert belt, with specs in AC

ps YaM thanks for the calcs
 
Tried to post it the day before, but for some reason Smogon would always say I had to wait 30 seconds. Anyways, make it 228 Speed; 244 if running Timid to outpace the occasional Modest Venusaur and Adamant max Speed Kabutops if rain isn't up. Make the order of slashes Life Orb / Expert Belt and this is approved.
 
I'm letting Aeron take this over since Defense has been gone for a few days and has had sufficient time to update the OP.
 
[Overview]

<p>Castform is a cute Pokemon with a unique ability; that is the extent of its his advantageous traits.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
move 4: Energy Ball / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes advantage of Castform's most competitively stable trait (his movepool), allowing him to function as a decent special attacker. BoltBeam forms Castform's attacking move core, with a Fire-type move rounding off the coverage perfectly. Energy Ball is filler, but is useful against Water / Ground-types who are neutral to BoltBeam. Same goes for Shadow Ball, but for Ghost- and Psychic-types. With these four moves, Castform hits quite a bit of the tier super effectively, which is good since Castform lacks a reliable STAB attack, so anything he can't hit super effectively can shrug off his attacks offensive attempts quite easily.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A boosting item is pretty much necessary if Castform wants to be offensively capable at all; Life Orb provides the highest boost possible (while still maintaining the ability to switch moves), but since Castform hits so many Pokemon super effectively, Expert Belt is also a viable option, with a similar boost and no recoil. The EVs maximize Castform's disappointing sweeper stats are an attempt to maximize Castform's lackluster stats for sweeping, but Speed can be lowered to 228 if you're running a Modest nature, putting Castform a point above Jolly Torterra. With a Timid nature, 244 Speed EVs are needed to outpace neutral-natured base 80 Speed Pokemon. The remaining EVs can then be added to HP for bulk.</p>

<p>Castform is a slow, relatively weak special attacker; therefore, we can say that he'll appreciate entry hazard, dual screen, paralysis, and wallbreaker support. Uxie can do the former three well, and also makes a great fallback Pokemon for when facing powerful attackers. Blaziken is pretty much undisputed as the best wallbreaker in the tier, although Nidoking can give him a run for his money. Castform really shouldn't be used in any competitive scene, so I'd it's recommended that you just replace him with one of the many other, better special attackers in the tier if you're trying to make some "serious" team, and go with their team options you're at least a little bit serious about winning.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>A Choice Specs set can be used to make up for Castform's bad Special Attack stat, but even then he lacks the power, and without the ability to switch moves, he becomes even easier to wall. A physical set is a bad idea since the only physical attacks Castform has are Return, Facade, and Avalanche. Thunder Wave and Toxic can be used to cripple switch-ins, but running either will cut coverage. Weather Ball is a great 100 Base Power STAB move if Castform is being used on a weather team. Castform works well on Sunny Day teams in particular, as he can also utilize SolarBeam in conjunction with STAB Weather Ball for great coverage.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>If it's not hit super effectively Castform can't 2HKO it, it counters Castform.</p>

gpstamp
 
[Overview]

<p>Castform is a cute Pokemon with a unique ability; that is the extent of his advantageous traits.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
move 4: Energy Ball / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is Castform's best chance at being competitively viable. BoltBeam forms Castform's attacking core, with a Fire-type move rounding off the coverage perfectly. Energy Ball is filler, but is useful against Water- and Ground-types, who are neutral to BoltBeam. Same goes for Shadow Ball, but for Ghost- and Psychic-types. With these four moves, Castform hits quite a bit of the tier super effectively, which is good since Castform lacks a reliable STAB attack, so anything he can't hit super effectively can quite easily shrug off any of his attempts attacks.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A boosting item is pretty much necessary if Castform wants to be offensively capable at all; Life Orb provides the highest boost possible (while still maintaining the ability to switch moves), but since Castform hits so many Pokemon super effectively, Expert Belt is also a viable option, with a similar boost and no recoil. The are an You may attempt to bolster Castform's lackluster stats for sweeping, but Speed can be lowered down to 228 EVs if you're running a Modest nature, putting Castform a point above Jolly Torterra. With a Timid nature, 244 Speed EVs are needed to outpace neutral-natured base 80 Speed Pokemon. The remaining EVs can then be added to HP for bulk.</p>

<p>Castform is a slow, relatively weak special attacker; therefore, we can say that he'll appreciate entry hazard, dual screen, paralysis, and wallbreaker support. Uxie can do the former three well, and also makes a great fallback Pokemon when facing powerful attackers. Blaziken is pretty much undisputed as the best wallbreaker in the tier, although Nidoking can give him a run for his money. Castform really shouldn't be used in any competitive team, so it's recommended that you just replace him with one of the many other, better special attackers in the tier if you're at least a little bit serious about winning.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>A Choice Specs set can be used to make up for Castform's bad Special Attack stat, but even then he lacks the power, and without the ability to switch moves, he becomes even easier to wall. A physical set is a bad idea since the only physical attacks Castform has are Return, Facade, and Avalanche. Thunder Wave and Toxic can cripple switch-ins, but running either will cut coverage. Weather Ball can be a great 100 Base Power STAB move if Castform is being used on a weather team. If Sunny Day is the weather of choice, then SolarBeam becomes viable too.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>If it's not hit super effectively, it counters Castform.</p>
Click to expand...
 
The are an You may attempt to bolster Castform's lackluster stats for sweeping
Click to expand...

wrong

The EVs are an attempt to bolster Castform's lackluster stats for sweeping
Click to expand...

right

try to track down why that error exists in the first place, in this case AeronEe1 deleted an extra word in his haste to implement my check

but is useful against Water- and Ground-types, who are neutral to BoltBeam.</p>
Click to expand...

this is also wrong, water-types and ground-types individually do not resist boltbeam, water/ground-types do
 
Amateur GP check

Blue = Add
Red = Delete
Bold = Comments

Aeron Ee1 said:
[Overview]

<p>Castform is a cute Pokemon with a unique ability; unfortunately, that is the extent of his advantageous traits.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Flamethrower / Fire Blast
move 4: Energy Ball / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is Castform's best chance at being competitively viable. BoltBeam forms Castform's attacking core, with a Fire-type move rounding off the coverage perfectly. Energy Ball is mostly a filler, but is useful against Water Water- / Ground-types, who are neutral to BoltBeam. Same goes for Shadow Ball, but for Ghost- and Psychic-types. With these four moves, Castform hits quite a bit of the tier super effectively, which is good since Castform it lacks a reliable STAB attack, so anything he can't hit super effectively can quite easily shrug off any of his attempts.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A boosting item is pretty much necessary if Castform wants to be offensively capable at all; Life Orb provides the highest boost possible (while still maintaining the ability to switch moves), but since Castform hits so many Pokemon super effectively, Expert Belt is also a viable option, with a similar boost and no recoil. The EVs are an attempt to bolster Castform's lackluster stats for sweeping, but its Speed can be lowered down to 228 (EVs) if you're running a Modest nature, putting Castform a point above Jolly Torterra. With a Timid nature, 244 Speed EVs are needed to outpace neutral-natured base 80 Speed Pokemon. The remaining EVs can then be added to HP for bulk.</p>

<p>Castform is a slow, relatively weak special attacker; therefore, we can say that he'll appreciate entry hazard, dual screen, paralysis, and wallbreaker support. Uxie can do the former three well, and also makes a great fallback Pokemon when facing powerful attackers. Blaziken is pretty much undisputed as the best wallbreaker in the tier, although Nidoking can give him a run for his money. Castform really shouldn't be used in any competitive team, so it's recommended that you just replace him with one of the many other, better special attackers in the tier if you're at least a little bit serious about winning.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>A Choice Specs set can be used to make up for Castform's bad Special Attack stat, but even then he lacks the power, and without the ability to switch moves, he becomes even easier to wall. A physical set is a bad idea since the only viable (nitpicking but he does learn some other moves such as Secret Power and Thief) physical attacks Castform has learns are Return, Facade, and Avalanche. Thunder Wave and Toxic can cripple switch-ins, but running either will cut coverage. Weather Ball can be a great 100 Base Power STAB move if Castform is being used on a weather team. If Sunny Day is the weather of choice, then SolarBeam becomes viable too.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>If it's not hit super effectively, it counters Castform.</p>
Click to expand...
 
erm the set says 252 speed, but the set comments say 228 with Modest and 244 with Timid, so there's a contradiction there..
 
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