100 Little Cups

xzern

xzern

for sure
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
approved by The Eevee General and Arcticbutts

[00:59:59] %Arcticblast: omg
[00:59:59] %Arcticblast: this fixes
[01:00:06] %Arcticblast: literally every problem I have with Little Cup
[01:00:24] %Arcticblast: aka speed ties and overlapping damage ranges

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hide your children from the lickitung

Have you ever tried playing Little Cup and quickly decided that trying making EV spreads for level 5 pokemon is just weird? If you are of the human species and live on the planet Earth, the answer is most likely yes. The complicated EV spreads these pokemon require at level 5 quickly drive people away from even the very thought of thought of playing Little Cup. However, there are a vast amount of people that want to be able to use the plethora of pokemon available in the tier and use the traditional level 100 ev spreads of every other tier. So why not let them? In 100LC, the player gets the opportunity to use all of their favorite infant pokemon at level 100 instead of level 5. Additionally, pokemon that learn moves only by only level up over 5 will be able to use those moves in LC100. For example, Klink can now use gear grind and shift gear.

​
Damage differences at level 5 and level 100 respectively:
236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 4-6 (19 - 28.5%) -- 12.6% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 57-67 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO

236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 135-160 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO

236 SpA Abra Energy Ball vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 16-20 (64 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Abra Energy Ball vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 180-214 (58 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 12-14 (60 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 102-120 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
​
Rules:
  • Standard LC Clauses
  • Every LC ban applies (except the ones on fixed damage moves i guess)
  • LC pokemon are set at level 100, not level 5
Click to expand...

Replays
vs smelliott
vs Shgeldz

i need replays ;;
catch me on showdown (wifi, neverused, doubles, little cup rooms) if you wanna fite and have your replay up here
 
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Oh boy, this is a pretty neat meta. All the speed-ties are die, and the meta is still as cute as ever. It also make Berry Juice useless, so now the go-to item for defense is Eviolite. This looks like its pretty fun, gotta try it out. :}
 
I hope this meta brings some light to the Little Cup. Still, EVing LC's is not THAT difficult, and I personally like it. Also, we lose one of what, at least for me, is the point of LC: stats omogeneity.
If someone has played LC, he would know that the difference between stats was not that high ( let's say, in standard LC, 65 Spe = 17, while 85 Spe = 19, so that they are like 1.12 vs. 1, while at lv. 100 we have 295 vs. 240, the difference being like 1.23 ) so we lose the "if your ability / typing is cool and your stats not so absymal welcome" that made Foo a bulky pivot ( you know, 35 / 55 / 55 defs aren't THAT good ) and made Meowht a decent poke with that 45 Attack, not to mention we lose the fun of screwing around with some obscure stuff.
Also, movepools will be somewhat larger.
 
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h0709D004

PREPARE YOUR ANUSES, although tympole isn't that good. Anyways this looks like a really interresting meta and potentially might get me back into little cup, this really spices up the meta which is imho what little cup desperately needed.
 
This should be good and like other people have said, I will probably try it out now that the EVs are at a level I'm familiar with.

I have a feeling the speed of matches will slow down. Eviolite makes sense to spam, especially with Berry Juice gone. Sitrus Berry can't really replace that role, either, but Leftovers may see more usage, though it's hard to say when Eviolite is all around such a good item. Life Orb acts differently at this level, too, and I wonder how it will fit in.

The addition of more moves to their movepools should also mix up the threatlist a bit.
 
Just a few quick thoughts -
If we're going to use this metagame to draw people into LC do we really want goomy/spoink/bergmite in the OP ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
I feel as if Klink is still going to be awful because its stats are terrible and everything that matters still walls it forever and ever.
Golett might be decent because it has an actual movepool now, but I still doubt it'll be a major threat.
Choice Specs and Choice Scarf are probably legitimate items now that Life Orb doesn't outclass them almost entirely because of level 5 damage rolls.
Speaking of things affected by the changed damage rolls, RIP Aipom and Shellder :(
Because Porygon wasn't versatile enough, Tri Attack and Recover are now legal with Analytic. With the changed EV system, speed creep is now a thing, so Porygon could potentially run a few Speed EVs to actually win against Timburr switch-ins.
Pokemon that rely on doubling their Speed, such as Bellsprout and Omanyte, are suffering a pretty drastic nerf because they are now outsped by key Choice Scarf users. For example, Scarfed base 54 Speed Pokemon are now able to outspeed Modest Omanyte, while Scarfed base 68 Speed Pokemon are able to outspeed Timid Omanyte (pardon me if I messed up the specific numbers, but hopefully you get the gist of it).
I actually doubt the Eviolite spam will be very noticeable; it's already the best and most popular item in standard LC by a huge margin, so it can't become THAT much better. It's probably going to continue outclassing just about every other defensive item; for defensive Pokemon, Berry Juice was never really all that worthy of consideration.
Dwebble is one of the main Pokemon that's suffering from the removal of Berry Juice, relegating it to its atrocious Shell Smash set. Tirtouga seemed fine last generation with a Shell Smash set, so it'll probably maintain a decent niche in 100 LC. Magnemite also has decent sets that don't involve Sturdyjuice.
Foongus is still going to be the best :))
 
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the commonness of eviolite make me feel like this will be a more wall-oriented meta, maybe not stall based, but there will be many good walls on both sides. I think balance may be the way to go in this meta (thats new isin't it). Matches will really be longer, and eviolite will be everywhere. Status will be very potent due to all the eviolite, and having a good cleric will be very important. With the lack of passive recovery, most teams will need to carry status to beat some walls. There will be a great dependency on wallbreakers as well, and lack of passive recovery on eviolite mons will make wish-passing very important. Hyper offense will rely on keeping the opponent's cleric off the field, and wearing down walls enough for a sweeper to clean. Personally though, I don't think that it will be too good. Balance looks more potent; use a good defensive core to wall opposing threats, then you need to wear down opposing walls, use your cleric to extend the battle until you get an advantage, and then use a single setup sweeper to hopefully beat the opponent's team. I feel like people who don't try to teambuild by roles will have trouble in this meta.

This still looks like a helluva lot of fun. I don't really play LC much mostly because I find level 5 damage rolls and etc. to be really luck based and kind of retarded and disorganized. This completely fixes that in a tier that looked very cool already but now just looks great.
 
Adrian Marin said:
With level 100 damage ranges, stall in LC actually has a chance. I can see Eviolite being used everywhere <3
Click to expand...
and consequently, knock off everywhere. Looking at the useful pokes that get it such as doduo and timburr, there will be a lot of knock off in this meta. Better bring sticky hold shellos dude.
 
oh look I finally have a reason to use leftovers
granted little reason but still reason

EDIT: Maybe swirlix could be unbanned since it isn't going to full health with Berry juice and everything just got bulkier? Idk
 
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Yeah i have been noticing damage calcs and the extra bulk is a real issue. For example, specially defensive lickitung can live a +6 life orb magby fire punch easily. There are still good sweepers like clamperl, so there are plenty of toys to play with, but the lack of wallbreakers is striking.
 
Will there be any hope for hyper offense? I can see pawniard and other knock off users being used to check the defensive pokemon that you guys mentioned since basically any and every wall will have Eviolite.
 
xzern said:
Will there be any hope for hyper offense? I can see pawniard and other knock off users being used to check the defensive pokemon that you guys mentioned since basically any and every wall will have Eviolite.
Click to expand...
There isin't a lot. Hyper offense's viability will revolve around baiting stuff and knocking eviolites off, and thats about it. I do see many hyper offensive pokemon being able to be used, and i see balance as the best strategy, even over full stall. Wearing down walls in this metagame is much easier, which means that all you need to do is use a mix of defense and offense to try to soften walls for your setup sweeper. Shell Smash clamperl is a decent chance to break weakened stall teams.
 
I'm not sure where the misconception that stall is bad in standard LC arose from, but it is blatantly untrue; the fact that every single Pokemon can have both its defenses increased by 1.5x more than makes up for silly damage rolls, and there are numerous defensive Pokemon that are able to easily fit onto a variety of defensive teams that can absorb Knock Off. Stall is excellent in LC; even during Swirlgar, it saw use in high level play, and with bans to prominent wall-breakers in Gligar, Murkrow, Meditite, and Misdreavus, it has only gotten better.
As several others have pointed out before me, if Stall was good with level 5 pokes, it's going to be absolutely ridiculous with level 100 pokes. Pokemon like Lickitung and Spritzee will probably be able to tank incredibly powerful hits even without their Eviolites, and be nigh invincible with items. Because of this, I doubt even Knocking random Eviolites off will be enough. I personally see a metagame that is almost completely stall, with offense thrown out the window and even balance heavily leaning towards defense. I fail to see Clamperl being enough to take out stall teams, because even at +2, it would fail to OHKO most resistances and special walls, provided they are holding Eviolite, and Knock Off support is hardly a fair reason when simply using Knock Off on Clamperl itself will render it all but useless.
Most of LC's bans thus far have been targeted towards offensive Pokemon, so what could possibly done to at least give offensive teams a semblance of a fighting chance is to revert to Swirlgar (minus Swagger, of course). This will free up the wall-breakers I mentioned previously, and although they will now actually be possible to wall due to the sheer bulk Eviolite brings at level 100, they could still probably pose as moderate nuisances to stall teams.
 
It came from the notion of lack of passive recovery, which is HUGE in any metagame for wall pokes. Wish support will be neccessary, and predicting stall teams bringing a certain wall in to get better recovery will be much easier. yes they have some recovery moves, but the lack of passive recovery will make many pokes lives harder due to not being able to just protect and get 12% back (over two turns)
 
I honestly think we need to outright ban lickitung because its bulk just insane.
(i'm slightly biased because stalling is really fucking boring)

252 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 156-186 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 270-320 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 100-118 (26 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Pawniard Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 104-124 (27 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 Atk Magby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 288-339 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs arent even with full defense since lickitung usually runs special defense anyway.

252 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 75-88 (19.5 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 72-85 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
...etc.

But thanks to level 100, klink can get a 50% chance to kill lickitung.
+6 252+ Atk Klink Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Lickitung: 354-416 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
...with fully boosted attack.

Thoughts?
 
yeah lickitung is kind of ridiculous, it can switch into anything its invested in. like i mean anything. Take the strongest Fighting move in the entire tier (meinfoo) against the physically defensive set (you already saw what it can do against specially defensive): 252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Lickitung: 315-374 (82 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So a 1.69x boosted super effective attack from one of the strongest pokemon in the tier running an unpreferred ability along with a bad item with an adamant nature can't even OHKO this thing. So yeah, get that shit out of here.
 
I disagree with Lickitung's ban.
Let's take a look at the flip side of the calcs.

252 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 66-78 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 10.9% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Timburr: 61-73 (20.9 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 38-45 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
4 Atk Lickitung Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magby: 123-145 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Keep in mind that Magby is incredibly frail, and not actually very good when Ponyta exists.

Lickitung will be pretty much relegated to passing (admittedly enormous) wishes, Knocking Off random Eviolites, and/or acting as a Cleric, just like in standard LC. Even though it can avoid the OHKO from just about everything, its offensive presence is beyond pathetic, and as such, it will probably be set-up fodder for just about anything with Substitute (because if its STAB Body Slam fails to break Timburr's Substitute the majority of the time, let's not even get started on its Dragon Tail). Lickitung isn't stalling out anything that can actually set up if it's working on its own.
I don't think we can blame stall's brokenness on any one culprit at this point; if we're looking to make offense viable, we should probably weaken stall in general. This could be done by banning Eviolite, but I feel as if that would somewhat detract from Little Cup's unique flair (in addition to encouraging the use of Leftovers, which I don't like the idea of for various reasons). It might also carry the possibility of making the metagame TOO offensive, if gen 4 LC was anything to judge by; skimming through the viability thread, LC seems to statistically pack a lot more offensive juggernauts than defensive behemoths. As such, introducing some potent wall-breakers to balance out the walls would probably be a more effective solution.

Just my thoughts, of course
 
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