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I completely agree with that, that thing always gets so many votes but idk why.
This actually made me laugh audibly, I thought you should know.
Hopefully this will not turn into Sand offense and Arceus > everything else kind of metagame, I'm excited to read up on this thread and create sets of my own
Nah. This is not a meta where Sand Offense + Arceus > everything else kind of meta. This is a meta where Primal Groudon > everything else meta. You may argue that there are bulkier walls than can withstand Pdon's attacks easier, but most of them (Shroomish, Hippopotas, Slowpoke) are all slower, which means they all can't switch into Swords Dance (they all got 2hko'd by +2 Fire Punch/Precipice Blades and Pdon can take an eq from Hippopotas). There may be more Primal Groudon checks than Ubers, but it's still the best poke in the meta.
Even though pdon is still very centralizing (just like Ubers), Sand Offense with Drilbur + Hippopotas IS viable though, as both of them can handle pdon (just don't switch into SD). Other weathers... I kind of doubt it.
I'm studying for a test and data entry calms my nerves, so I started a list of the stat changes to every Pokemon with a BST 300 and below (300-350 will come soon). I left out Pokemon that have a higher evolution that gets the same buffs (except Azurill, who has a distinctly different type from Maril). I also marked certain stats with benchmarks of quality based on general standards in OU and Ubers:
100-120: Considered "good" in OU and "decent" in Ubers 120-150: Considered "great" in OU and "good" in Ubers 150-180: Considered "exceptional" in OU and "great" in Ubers 180+: Considered "godlike" in both OU and Ubers
This probably needs a new owner, it has a outdated banlist and viability ranking, in the op and below it respectively, which can be confusing. It also has a few resource posts that could be put to use but isn't being used. Someone taking over this would probably be the best course of action.
Here's a banlist for those who are confused (went through the old pages, the op's just missing smeargle. however, the banlist itself is really easy to miss) : Abra, Cranidos, Darumaka, Ghastly, Pawniard, Rayquaza Mega, Smeargle, Spritzee. And keep in mind that the viability rankings are outdated, do not get confused.
Huh, according to this post it should be. I guess with the new bp clause the smash pass stuff is gone, but i believe kl4ng brought it up first because of how good it was at setting up hazards vs defensive teams or something along the lines of that. What do you guys think? Has things changed enough for smeargle to remain unbanned?
Huh, according to this post it should be. I guess with the new bp clause the smash pass stuff is gone, but i believe kl4ng brought it up first because of how good it was at setting up hazards vs defensive teams or something along the lines of that. What do you guys think? Has things changed enough for smeargle to remain unbanned?
nah i faced it on the ladder and its still cancer as ever and invalidates bulkier builds (guess who was using a bulky build when he faced a smeargle. it should be kept banned and implimented on the ladder when someone can do something abt it o3o
Huh, according to this post it should be. I guess with the new bp clause the smash pass stuff is gone, but i believe kl4ng brought it up first because of how good it was at setting up hazards vs defensive teams or something along the lines of that. What do you guys think? Has things changed enough for smeargle to remain unbanned?
I'm pretty sure TheBurgerKing99 unbanned Smeargle after the BP clause change. He was somewhat active at the time and someone brought it up. Smeargle was also banned before Gastly and Abra, so its incredibly unlikely he forgot to put it in the OP. And last but least convincing argument that he unbanned it: I vaguely remember Smeargle being listed in the OP last year when it was OMTOM.
Skrelp @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Wave
- Scald
- Thunderbolt / Dragon Pulse / HP Fire
I've been toying with this set, and so far I have had great success (although I'm still on the lower end of the ladder). Due to the doubling of its HP, Def, and SDef, as well as good defensive typing, this thing tanks hits and deals fantastic damage thanks to its adaptability-boosted STABs. For the most part Skrelp’s STABs out-damage its super effective coverage options, so the last spot is kind of a toss up for what you need, Thunderbolt for Tentacool, HP Fire for Ferrothorn/seed, and Dragon Pulse for Giratina (and somewhat Dialga).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefairy: 512-604 (105.7 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shroomish: 408-484 (91.8 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowpoke: 388-458 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Foongus: 296-350 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. +2 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 328-388 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Elgyem: 344-406 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bronzor: 200-236 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Foongus: 218-258 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Like I said, still on the low side of the ladder, but this poke is showing to be very useful
I also think a mixed set with Gunk Shot would also be very effective, given its high power and the Specially defensive nature of things that are weak to it
I'm seeing a disgusting lack of Primal Groudon in this tier. It's still the best mon in the game and I dunno why people don't use it more. Still works on every team archetype you can think of.
100-120: Considered "good" in OU and "decent" in Ubers 120-150: Considered "great" in OU and "good" in Ubers 150-180: Considered "exceptional" in OU and "great" in Ubers 180+: Considered "godlike" in both OU and Ubers
I am actually in love with Rhyhorn here. 160/170/190/60/60/50. Physically, he's tougher than PDon and harder to rip a hole in than Titanium. Staravia, the flying menace, flies straight into this brick wall and dies. Even fighting types have a tough time getting the KO before they are slammed by a STAB EQ off 170 attack. He beats ExtremeKiller, Zekrom, Bird Power, and many other strong physical attackers.
I also immediately put my little man Machop on a team, to try and use that 160Atk Dynamic Punch. He is useful sometimes, but I'll probly switch to Timbur or Mienfoo
Solosis has 210 SpA.. I thought that should be made known. Forget Abra, gone! This lil dude can make good use of Magic guard with its good defensive stats, calm mind, and recover. Also, it has..210 SpA. That's..a lot.
Jigglypuff is pretty much a better Blissey, and since eviolite is banned it's a better Chansey. 230 HP is close, phys Def is better, SpD is worse, but then there's that fairy typing that gives it a much better defensive typing. It should find use on balance as a cleric and on stall teams
To whoever was using this set on the ladder...I hate you. It's way too passive to actually accomplish much other than annoy the hell out of you, but there was like nothing on my team that could hit this beast:
Marill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Soak
- Substitute
- Protect
I would have probably lost if my Slowpoke hadn't been paralyzed earlier...
Jigglypuff is pretty much a better Blissey, and since eviolite is banned it's a better Chansey. 230 HP is close, phys Def is better, SpD is worse, but then there's that fairy typing that gives it a much better defensive typing. It should find use on balance as a cleric and on stall teams
Going by the OP, Eviolite is only disallowed if you are under 350 BST, so Chansey is fine. Also, even at 230 HP, Jigglypuff has such abysmal defenses that I don't see the merit in using it.
It sounds like smeargle was unbanned because BP clause is supposed to be a thing. But BP clause isn't actually implemented on the ladder. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/350cup-299777395
I'm not totally sure it would be broken with BP clause, but it's definitely broken without it.
Replay just to show it's legal, not to argue brokenness-this just seems unintended.
Yeah BP isn't banned in ubers and this uses ubers clauses + evasion so baton pass is legal. But smeargle is broken as shit. Please ban it instantly. Thanks.
100-120: Considered "good" in OU and "decent" in Ubers 120-150: Considered "great" in OU and "good" in Ubers 150-180: Considered "exceptional" in OU and "great" in Ubers 180+: Considered "godlike" in both OU and Ubers
this is really helpful for players like me, so good job. however I noticed that in your list of Pokemon stats, you had the blue and red colours mixed up. For example, on the Pokemon stat list thing, blue stats indicated 120-150, and red stats indicated 150-180. However, you key says that red stats are 120-150, and blue stats are 150-180. long story short, the colours you used on the stat catalogue were different from the key. sorry if I sounded weird, it was hard to explain
Hello, constant nagging has resulted me in accepting a temporary leadership position here so we can get some bans done properly. I see people complaining all day about Rufflet, Staravia and Shroomish. Are these pokemon really as big of an issue as people are making them out to be?
Also, re: Smeargle. It was banned and after looking through the pages after the ban post there was no post indicating it was unbanned. Also, since there was no real change to the meta in terms of nerfing it (barring Lati@s as a defogger and mega Sable's existance as indicated in past posts), it's probably just as bad as it was then. So, I'll probably be quickbanning this tomorrow/the day after depending on the posts I see next.
There was a post on BP clause being a reason for unbanning Smeargle before, but
Format: 350 Cup
Rated battle Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned Moody Clause: Moody is banned Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned HP Percentage Mod: HP is shown in percentages Swagger Clause: Swagger is banned Mega Rayquaza Clause: You cannot mega evolve Rayquaza niichan too big's team:Kyogre / Pidgeotto / Ferroseed / Lombre / Machop / Delibird FrankQuartz's team:Trapinch / Inkay / Yamask / Mienfoo / Clefairy / Froakie
(Any ban decision made will be the direct result of cases you make in this thread, so please post proper arguments when posting opinions and not just ban/noban. I want to make it clear that I have 0 sway on the way the ban goes, it's all up to you so post accordingly! I'll just read through the arguments and if there's a majority ban favor + good arguments, I'll declare the ban.)
Also, if you guys want a council to pick suspects instead, nominate a user in your posts (Do not nominate yourself. If you deserve it, someone will nominate you anyway). I'll list a few that could be good fits if interested:
I know these guys played it and are solid council members/players in many metas: Lcass4919Kl4ngAdrian Marin . Also, yoman5 and The Reptile laddered this extensively too. If you guys are interested, post here with your thoughts on the above mons and an answer as to whether or not you want to be a part of a council.
I don't think those three are that bad. I mean, it's an Ubers based meta, so the ban standard should be high. Those three are checkable and can be played around, though if you ask me, the closest poke that are suspect worthy of those three is probably Shroomish. It's got Spore + that bulk + Poison Heal. I wouldn't say it's broken though.
I say this because 350 cup has so much bans already it doesn't need anymore bans. And Primal Groudon is still the best poke in the tier, so if a poke is banworthy I'd say it must be as defining as Primal Groudon at least.
honestly, out of the three, i find staravia the "one to look at" at first i was thinking shroomish, but after doing some thinking, its not THAT bad for ubers standards it has plenty of stuff that handles it. but it also walls so much of the meta so idk. staravia though, literally 2hkos the meta barring 2 pokemon, outspeeds EVERYTHING but 5, and even has priority for the small things it doesnt KO. sure, its on a timer, but even WITH that timer, offensive teams and stall teams lacking rhyhorn/ditto/honedge just fall to this thing, and even when you pack a counter, its easy as fuck to remove. rufflet is strong, but it has a SEVERE handicap with its 20% accuracy deduction, on top of its shoddy speed for 350 cup standards. but this brought me up to my next question...
before anything, we need to ask ourselves, "do we want a broken meta like ubers, or a balanced meta?" ubers is a broken meta SIMPLY because its a "banlist" and has too many threats, and too little walls capable of handling their onslaught. this meta gains a LOT of things that balances the uber meta, and i see no reason to keep it a "broken" meta simply because ubers are in it. this is a meta with ubers in it, NOT a ubers meta. and if im part of the council, ill be making sure to get this point across to the others, and see if this meta will retain its current form, or if its worth balancing.
this is really helpful for players like me, so good job. however I noticed that in your list of Pokemon stats, you had the blue and red colours mixed up. For example, on the Pokemon stat list thing, blue stats indicated 120-150, and red stats indicated 150-180. However, you key says that red stats are 120-150, and blue stats are 150-180. long story short, the colours you used on the stat catalogue were different from the key. sorry if I sounded weird, it was hard to explain
Also: on Staravia and Rufflet, there are some very powerful options for "birdspam" counters in this metagame, and I think people will realize they need a solid Flying resist and start using them. Doublade and Bronzor, notably, shut them both down, while super-bulky beasts like Rhyhorn can tank non-STAB Fighting attacks with ease. Even several non-Flying resists are solid answers, like Slowpoke the god, even without full Physical investment:
Smeargle should be banned if only because smasspass is so obnoxious and skillless. I don't think therhe's much to discuss on this tbh.
Rufflet has a total of zero safe switchins with rocks up.
MURICA (Rufflet) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Shadow Claw
- Superpower
- U-turn/Return
Return makes it marginally easier to break Electric types, but they're all 2HKO'd by superpower/shadow claw/BB anyway, and U-turn could be cool for momentum.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 165-195 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery - this is a resisted physical hit breaking SKARMORY
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 164-194 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Doublade is bulkier than Honedge thanks to eviolite)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzor: 220-260 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 348-411 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyhorn: 380-448 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 233-274 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Return cleanly OHKOs even without rocks)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 369-435 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 225-265 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock holy shit
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 322-381 (81.7 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 249-293 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 582-685 (144 - 169.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 412-486 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
????????
Darumaka is very comparable; both get Hustle boosted 120 BP recoil-inducing STABs with Superpower and U-turn for coverage/momentum, 'maka hits harder but is slower (100 vs 120) and a bit frailer (140/90/90 vs 140/100/100). Rufflet has actual perfect coverage with shadow claw and superpower, and can run a BU/Hone claws set to surprise some of its checks ('maka only gets flame charge/PuP as boosting moves) - it can even run a SH/LO set which is probably kinda bad with only rock slide boosted.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 619-729 (153.2 - 180.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
vs
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 582-685 (144 - 169.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
aka about an 8% increase in power
It's obviously easier to check once locked into a move (especially superpower), but god DAMN.
I've never seen the other two used, but I just wanted to showcase Rufflet's power. Ban rufflet imo.
Hello, constant nagging has resulted me in accepting a temporary leadership position here so we can get some bans done properly. I see people complaining all day about Rufflet, Staravia and Shroomish. Are these pokemon really as big of an issue as people are making them out to be?
Also, re: Smeargle. It was banned and after looking through the pages after the ban post there was no post indicating it was unbanned. Also, since there was no real change to the meta in terms of nerfing it (barring Lati@s as a defogger and mega Sable's existance as indicated in past posts), it's probably just as bad as it was then. So, I'll probably be quickbanning this tomorrow/the day after depending on the posts I see next.
There was a post on BP clause being a reason for unbanning Smeargle before, but
Format: 350 Cup
Rated battle Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned Moody Clause: Moody is banned Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned HP Percentage Mod: HP is shown in percentages Swagger Clause: Swagger is banned Mega Rayquaza Clause: You cannot mega evolve Rayquaza niichan too big's team:Kyogre / Pidgeotto / Ferroseed / Lombre / Machop / Delibird FrankQuartz's team:Trapinch / Inkay / Yamask / Mienfoo / Clefairy / Froakie
(Any ban decision made will be the direct result of cases you make in this thread, so please post proper arguments when posting opinions and not just ban/noban. I want to make it clear that I have 0 sway on the way the ban goes, it's all up to you so post accordingly! I'll just read through the arguments and if there's a majority ban favor + good arguments, I'll declare the ban.)
Also, if you guys want a council to pick suspects instead, nominate a user in your posts (Do not nominate yourself. If you deserve it, someone will nominate you anyway). I'll list a few that could be good fits if interested:
I know these guys played it and are solid council members/players in many metas: Lcass4919Kl4ngAdrian Marin . Also, yoman5 and The Reptile laddered this extensively too. If you guys are interested, post here with your thoughts on the above mons and an answer as to whether or not you want to be a part of a council.
Smeargle is absolutely broken without BP clause, the reason it was banned in the first place was that it can hand out massive a boosts for free. There is almost no way to prevent it from Quiver Passing/Smash Passing massive boosts. It can simply Sleep, Setup, and Pass. It gave so many free wins last time around it had to be banned to keep the meta playable. Maybe with BP clause Smeragle isn't game breaking, but without it needs to be quick banned.
So yeah Smeargle should be banned. Ive played 23 games with a team based around smeargle pass and ive won 16 just focusing on smeargle, so a more balanced team with it wouldve done even better. Just used Belly Drum+Substitute+Salac Berry (and Spore ofc). Then you can pass to staravia, groudon or my favorite, Carvanha, and destroy teams without 2 sashers or 1 sasher+ a strong priority user. Here are some replays.
(ask if you want more replays ;p)
I have to admit that smeargle is OP, even though its so fun to use, due to its increased bulk and speed which allow it to get a very fast spore and then sometimes take a hit without its sub being broken if its facing a defensive mon
PS. A couple games were won without Smeargle, mostly cuz of Magnemite the LORD
I don't think Shroomish or Staravia are broken, and Rufflet is pretty borderline (it hit really hard, especially with Hustle, but its slow and a bit unreliable if Hustle is being used. It's basically best vs Stall). Shroomish has pretty poor typing and is very passive, making it a bad choice for offensive teams - it only really sees play in defensive teams, and at most can be accused of being incredibly annoying. Staravia meanwhile lacks any form of coverage, making it pretty easy to wall and deal with - basically any bulky Rock- or Steel-type can handle it. I find Mega Mence much more problematic than Staravia tbh
Everyone is giving their piece in on "2 Birds and A Baby"(*sitcom idea??*) so here's mine. Staravia: has never given me any problems, but I always carry a Rhyhorn and keep him healthy when I see one in team preview. However, I can see why people are complaining since only Rhyhorn, Geodude, Honedge, Bronzor, Aron, Bonsly, Roggenrola, and Shieldon ("newly viable under 350 mons")can avoid becoming no 2HKOd. I would say only 4 of those are good mons to use.
Rufflet: Honestly, I have yet to battle one. Is it really that commonly used? It seems incredibly good and can 2HKO everything that walls Staravia. It should be used more, and I wouldn't mind a suspect.
Shroomish: I see this thing everywhere and it's irritating...really..irritating. Excellent bulk + Poison Heal, Spore, Toxic, and Leech Seed makes for a great grass type. However, if you run a grass type immune to Toxic, it cannot do a single thing. Or SapSipper. It's near impossible to OHKO without an SE hit too. A suspect would be great, because it almost forces you to run a grass type/immune that can't be poisoned.
DrilPotas is a great balanced core that, although not very type synergetic, this core makes up for it in the sheer offensive/defensive output. Sand Stream, along with a Smooth Rock, allows Drilbur to capitalize on the maximum amount of sand turns possible to wreak havoc with either ability (Sand Force/Sand Rush). Did I mention in 350 Drilbur has 170 Attack? Hippopotas also has crazy defensive bulk (136/156 iirc) and access to reliable recovery in Slack Off, meaning it can come through many times to set up the sand. Primal Groudon is a great partner to this core as it resets sand so the rest of the team doesn't take sandstorm damage, and it absorbs water moves/kills grass pokemon which helps the core greatly.
or
Either one of these birds go perfectly with the resident steel trapper of the tier, Magnemite, who can get rid of annoying Honedge and Bronzor with relative ease due to Magnemite's massive 190 Special Attack in 350. Not much else to say here, getting rid of steels allow either bird to absolutely destroy the opposition. Rhyhorn has no reliable recovery, and as a result it can be easily weakened to the point where these strong birds can pick it off.
DrilPotas is a great balanced core that, although not very type synergetic, this core makes up for it in the sheer offensive/defensive output. Sand Stream, along with a Smooth Rock, allows Drilbur to capitalize on the maximum amount of sand turns possible to wreak havoc with either ability (Sand Force/Sand Rush). Did I mention in 350 Drilbur has 170 Attack? Hippopotas also has crazy defensive bulk (136/156 iirc) and access to reliable recovery in Slack Off, meaning it can come through many times to set up the sand. Primal Groudon is a great partner to this core as it resets sand so the rest of the team doesn't take sandstorm damage, and it absorbs water moves/kills grass pokemon which helps the core greatly.
or
Either one of these birds go perfectly with the resident steel trapper of the tier, Magnemite, who can get rid of annoying Honedge and Bronzor with relative ease due to Magnemite's massive 190 Special Attack in 350. Not much else to say here, getting rid of steels allow either bird to absolutely destroy the opposition. Rhyhorn has no reliable recovery, and as a result it can be easily weakened to the point where these strong birds can pick it off.
Akumeoy great catch, I always forget that. In any case, I have also directed attention to Doduo, as it has something over the other birds in Knock Off, as well as similar speed/power. Obviously not as fast as Staravia or as bulky and powerful as Rufflet, but Knock Off may be the move it needs to get an EDGE in this meta (pun completely intended)
I don't know if bird core is gonna beat Rhyhorn unless Rufflet is on superpower.
252+ Atk Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rhyhorn: 81-96 (15.4 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rhyhorn: 165-194 (31.4 - 37%) -- 80% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rhyhorn: 440-518 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is offensive Rhyhorn. Max def
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhyhorn: 350-412 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Takes it a little better. Still, lil rhino can switch effortlessly on 7/8 moves the two birds have.
On a different note, I have had huge success with Carvhana. 180 attack, speed boost, and great stabs make for a terrifying sweeper.
OK so Smeargle is bullshit. I would say yes to a ban. Baton Pass is banned in Ubers because its still bullshit even up there. Geo-passing, Belly drum salac-passing is stupid and uncompetetive. Its no fun and takes ZERO skill.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/350cup-300059936 this is not competitive, and of course in the one battle im testing Sand Force Drilbur I dont have the speed to outspeed a +2 Natu. And if i had a calc i woulda known rufflet could live but smeargle has more oppurtunities to pass. which is dumb
OK so Smeargle is bullshit. I would say yes to a ban. Baton Pass is banned in Ubers because its still bullshit even up there. Geo-passing, Belly drum salac-passing is stupid and uncompetetive. Its no fun and takes ZERO skill.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/350cup-300059936 this is not competitive, and of course in the one battle im testing Sand Force Drilbur I dont have the speed to outspeed a +2 Natu. And if i had a calc i woulda known rufflet could live but smeargle has more oppurtunities to pass. which is dumb
HP: 110/Atk: 150/Def: 100/Sp.Atk 80/Sp.Def 80/Spd: 160
Staravia is obscurely powerful in the current meta. The Scarf set is amazing versus offense and Band blows through Stall. It is extremely difficult to revenge kill, with only a handful of things that outspeed it. For many teams, the only way to deal with it is to weaken it down with recoil, and then kill with priority. It does have counters in Rhyhorn and Steels, but it has also been commonly paired with trappers like Magnemite and Gothita to deal with these things. It really restrains teambuilding to a point where I have seen stuff like Shed Shell Bronzor and Aron. I Really don't feel that it's healthy at this current point and should be banned.
HP: 140/Atk: 166/Def: 100/Sp.Atk: 74/Sp.Def:100/Spd: 120
Rufflet is verrry powerful in the current meta, Band is evidently the most common set, and I have seen it been used alot on Webs. It basically has no switchins. With Hustle, it's power level is clearly above anything in the metagame (besides Band Krabby). It also it extremely bulky and quite fast for a heavy hitter, making it difficult to wear down. The only beef I have with it is Hustle really, as the 80% accuracy on moves can't really hurt it when it's supposed to benefit it. Can't really decide on it tbh, so will lean to no ban.
HP: 120/Atk: 80/Def: 120/Sp.Atk 80/Sp.Def 120/Spd: 70
I will admit, Shroomish is annoying as hell, but I really don't think it's banworthy. Poison Heal, Leech Seed and Spore looks like a hard combo to deal with on paper, but it really struggles against the current meta. Stuff like P-Don, Mega Mence and Staravia all break through it quite easily, as 120 Defenses is not all that amazing in an Ubers based meta. Also things like Mega Sab completely wall it. I really can't see it getting banned, especially from an Ubers banworthy perspective.
Also Smeargle is broken without BP Clause, so unless it's implemented, it really should be banned.
Also what are people's opinion on Gothita? Been using it to trap walls and sweep with CM, and it's been working quite well for me so far.
HP: 120/Atk: 80/Def: 120/Sp.Atk 80/Sp.Def 120/Spd: 70
I will admit, Shroomish is annoying as hell, but I really don't think it's banworthy. Poison Heal, Leech Seed and Spore looks like a hard combo to deal with on paper, but it really struggles against the current meta. Stuff like P-Don, Mega Mence and Staravia all break through it quite easily, as 120 Defenses is not all that amazing in an Ubers based meta. Also things like Mega Sab completely wall it. I really can't see it getting banned, especially from an Ubers banworthy perspective.
I had to put on the breaks when you shrugged off its bulk. I think 120 all around is quite good. Think, I don't know..Arceus? I think Shroomish has pretty dang good bulk factoring in poison heal and typing. In 350 cup there's PDon with 100/160/90, bulk BST of 350. 120/120/120 bulk BST of 360. It's bulkier all around than both Primals. There's also Mantyke with 90/100/240, bulk BST 430. That's insane, but Mantyke has no recovery and Shroomish has all the recovery it could want from ability and moves. I have no point unless I can prove it, though.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shroomish in Harsh Sunshine: 330-390 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Shroomish: 432-510 (97.5 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shroomish: 450-530 (101.3 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Without +1 even MegaMence cannot OHKO.
Remember that with PoisonHeal, it has to do over 62.5% to 2HKO.
252+ Atk Rhyhorn Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shroomish: 224-264 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So we have 180 Atk with a 169 BP SE hit, a 150 Atk with a 216 Life Orb SE hit, a +1 145 Atk with 203 SE hit, and a 170 Atk with a 120 SE hit. Only the +1 can OHKO. These are all reaaallly massive hits and Shroomish doesn't stinking die, enabling it to Spore, leech seed, and poison heal up to take another hit.
After seeing those calcs and the lil descriptions I threw together, I think Shroomish should appear a formidable foe to kill.
Imo Band Staravia isn't really that good because it really struggles to break through stall unless it's been BP'd an attack boost or something. 150 base attack and Reckless isn't as hard-hitting as it may seem.
Here's Band Staravia versus some common physical walls.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 258-304 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Intimidate Staravia: 207-244 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 225-265 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind that if Staravia wants to run Adamant, it has to sacrifice outspeeding some important threats, including Vibrava. The corresponding calcs with Jolly are:
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowpoke: 235-277 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Intimidate Staravia: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staravia Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippopotas: 205-243 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
These are all versus non-resists. Take a Rock or Steel type and Staravia is almost completely hopeless. Bronzor and Honedge are popular choices that can easily beat Staravia.
And of course, it isn't doing much at -1. Do not ban Staravia.
Rufflet, on the other hand, is far more dangerous. Being able to 2HKO everything with a Band at +0 means that Stall has to take heavy damage in order to get something in to Rufflet that can force it out. There isn't really much to say, Superpower/Shadow Claw/Return/Brave Bird 2HKOes EVERYTHING at +0. Ban Rufflet.
Shroomish is kind of an oddball. It's really too passive to do anything other than subseed or just sleep something, which leaves it easy setup fodder for Clefairy once Sleep Clause is activated. It's also really easy to PP stall, if it comes to it, just by switching between Clefairy and Foongus(Also slowpoke but you take a decent chunk from Giga Drain). Shroomish is too passive to work in the meta, I can't understand why this was even suspected. Do not ban Shroomish.
Finally, Gothita is a massive piece of cancer. It forces Stall teams to run multiple Shed Shell users just to not lose at Team Preview. It's not even dead weight against Offense too, as it has a fast Thunder Wave to hit speedy pokes with. (And doesn't need to fear a switch into a Ground type or Lightning Rod user due to Shadow Tag). Get Gothita out of the metagame, it is uncompetitive.
