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4th Gen (HGSS) "Not Flygon"

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Smiles, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. Smiles

    Smiles

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    49

    Introduction

    Wow, my 6th RMT. My last one was 2 years ago, and I believe so were all my other ones. All 4th gen, because BW didn't exist back then and everyone played DPPtHGSS. Nothing against BW, I just haven't familiarized myself with it since I quit battling around the time BW was released.

    Anyway, my Shoddy Battle CRE was 1500+, so I'm pretty experienced. This team has done about just as well as my other teams as soon as I began testing, which I'd say is a success. I was a bit lazy on this team's creation and idea, but I did put a lot of thought into it while building it.

    Team Building

    My favourite previous team I called "Flygon used U-Turn!" because that's the message that I saw most often.
    It utilised a Flygon + Scizor core, inspired by a team I saw called "Art Of U-Turn", which was used during the DPPt era.

    I loved Flygon, but the lack of power was a bit disappointing. I also like MixNape, and I had success once with a Choice Band Nape, oh nostalgia. Netbattle?

    So I decided to try CB Flygon, which I thought would be awesome. Basically force the same switches but do more damage with U-Turn. Flygon is already very fast, so it'll be fine, right?

    [​IMG]

    NO. But obviously I didn't know that yet, the team wasn't built.

    First idea: Wall breaker. If I want a Flygon clean-up or sweep, I need to break walls since basically any physical wall can handle Flygon. I wanted to weaken checks/counters of Flygon, so I decided to use a similar Pokemon. Dragonite has great mixed power.

    That wasn't enough though. I wanted more wall-breaking. I mentioned earlier I liked MixNape, but with Flygon being physical, I decided to try a specially based set.

    Then I decided on Jirachi's coverage, hax, and complementary typing with Flygon and Dragonite for a Choice Scarf user. Who doesn't love being the haxor? Step aside Heatran, I have a steel-type move.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    So that was going to be where most of my offense came from. It took forever for me to decide on a lead, but I decided on Machamp. I used to lead my offensive teams with my super awesome special Azelf set, but this team didn't seem to require that. And with nothing to support Machamp, Heatran was the obvious choice for Stealth Rock.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Wait, let me reorder them from tallest to shortest.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Water types in general posed a problem, especially Vaporeon. Lucky for me I hadn't seen one yet. Starmie could easily sweep most of my team, Jirachi couldn't even OHKO and Machamp was usually dead, while Dragonite had to use Extremespeed.

    I removed Dragonite as he just wasn't doing it for me, and added in Electivire to deal with water types (somewhat) while still being a decent wall breaker.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Turns out Electivire wasn't good enough, and nothing on my team was drawing electric-type attacks. Without Motor Drive, Electivire kind of loses its reason for being that good.

    Jolteon is a pretty obvious substitute, but it lacks the ability to beat Blissey. Its Special Defense is not bad against water types, but either Specs or eat away at its own HP with LO. Also Jolteon has a terrible movepool, and as mentioned, nothing on my team draws Electric-type attacks.

    Another big problem was that I had 1 ground type immune, and 4 Pokemon weak to Earthquake.

    My alternate solution, which I had considered for the original team, was Celebi (resists Earthquake). Either fast special attacker Celebi, or Tinkerbell support with Thunder Wave. Both checked Starmie and could get rid of Suicune. Shaymin was an option, but I hate low accuracy moves. Relying on 90% acc Leech Seed and 85% acc Seed Flare (unable to KO offensive +1 Suicune) just wasn't good enough. It's partly because of that that I never use Metagross, Heracross, Roserade, or Tyranitar. Speaking of Tyranitar, I could have used it to defeat Zapdos and Starmie, but Stone Edge is the stupidest thing in existence.

    Rotom-a, I decided, was the way to go (immune to Earthquake, even better). Because of the abundance of fire moves on the team, I just dropped Overheat for Rotom-h on the Specs set. Idk if I should be using a different Rotom-a to scare things off, but I dont want fire-weak Pokemon switching in if all my other Pokemon are carrying Fire-type moves. Rotom-a is relatively bulky naturally, compared to Electivire, and it has more immunities and great attacking power. It can also cripple stall teams with Trick. Celebi would work too, but I haven't had any problems with Rotom-h.

    Oh, and I switched Flygon to Choice Scarf. This team has no focal Pokemon, but I usually end up with Infernape, Flygon, and Jirachi as my last surviving Pokemon, the fastest ones that don't get hit.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This team is called "Not Flygon" because it began with a focus on Flygon, but then I dropped Flygon's Choice Band and it broke.
    This team now has no core or focus, therefore it has no name. I simply called it "Flygon" for a while, until I realized that Flygon is not even the main Pokemon anymore. In fact, I think Jirachi, Infernape, and Machamp may be contributing even more than Flygon.


    In Depth

    Machamp

    [​IMG]
    @ Lum Berry
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 240 HP / 240 Atk / 16 SDef / 12 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Stone Edge
    - Payback
    - Bullet Punch

    Role: Attacking Lead.

    If the opponent forgot to consider Machamp as a threat, it can usually take 2 Pokemon down with it.

    That's right, No Guard. Accuracy paranoia? No such thing with Machamp. Even for the opponent lol.
    This is a very normal set. No Ice Punch because I dont remember the last time I saw a Dragonite lead. Stone Edge has lower PP, but it's stronger and has 100% accuracy. I've never benefited from it, but it has a higher critical hit rate. It still brings Roserade well into the KO range of Bullet Punch, so the OHKO is not so important.
    I usually switch out on Metagross, but sometimes Metagross like to use Earthquake + Meteor Mash just in case Machamp leads switch to Heatran. Good thing I have Shuca Berry on Heatran though, so that Earthquake does not OHKO.

    Heatran

    [​IMG]
    @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Flamethrower
    - Earth Power
    - Explosion
    - Stealth Rock

    Role: Stealth Rock + Explosion support, supports Machamp.

    Shuca Berry can be a surprise on Heatran when not in the lead slot.

    Heatran is often seen paired with Machamp leads because it works. Heatran helps to take care of Metagross and Skarmory leads mostly. Explosion is helpful later on, but I don't just fire it off at the first sign of danger. Flamethrower's power and accuracy trade with Fire Blast is not worth it mathematically, but it still get a lot of KOs and Heatran is often dead anyway.
    I believe there is no lead that can beat both Machamp and Heatran, unless specially tailored to do so.

    Flygon

    [​IMG]
    @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - U-Turn
    - ThunderPunch

    Role: Scout, Revenge killer.

    Although not its purpose, Flygon can revenge kill. Scouting by causing switches and using U-Turn is very useful. Scizor couldn't find a slot on this team, but Flygon + Scizor was very nice on my old team.

    The last slot usually doesn't do anything. That being said, I want it to do something. Revenge killing Gyarados with Outrage is set up bait or revenge kill bait. Dragon Claw usually just isn't strong enough on Jolly Flygon with no attack boost.
    Flygon's typing complements Jirachi's, and I'm considering giving Jirachi U-Turn as well. Flygon is great for cleaning late-game along with Jirachi somewhat, and STAB Earthquake is just a great move. I'm not going to say anything else since Flygon is so standard, predictable, and effective.

    Infernape

    [​IMG]
    @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Flamethrower
    - Close Combat
    - Grass Knot
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Role: Wall breaker, hole puncher.
    Infernape neatly punches 3 holes spread evenly apart on one margin of a sheet of paper. Great for convenience in storing and organizing.

    I could use Hidden Power [Ice] like I normally do, but I can easily go to Flygon, Jirachi, or Rotom-h. That's enough to get rid of Gyarados, so I don't need to hit him. Grass Knot is for Swampert, Hippowdon, Suicune, and other stray water types. Hidden Power [Ice] hits Dragonite hoping to wall my set, as well as Gliscor. However, against Zapdos, Flamethrower is stronger. I could use Fire Blast, but the accuracy is a let down on such a frail Pokemon and 3 of my Pokemon carry fire moves anyway.
    Often I can get random kills on slower Pokemon scouting my set, such as Swampert (who does well against any Infernape without Grass Knot), Dragonite, and Gliscor. Close Combat is so great that even Nasty Plot sets use it. Close Combat is great. It's great. It is. Quite.

    Rotom-h

    [​IMG]
    @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Trick
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Role: Raw power pecial attacker, Water- and Flying- type check, TrickScarfer.

    If I use it correctly, I can completely neuter an enemy defensive Pokemon. But Rotom-h's main purpose is to attack with great power and decent coverage. There are only 3 types that can stop Rotom-h's Electric-type attacks (other than the Obese-Normal-type).

    I hate how standard this team is, but that's part of what makes it so consistent. An element of surprise, which I usually LOVE to use, can also fail miserably if not used correctly. Also, you probably haven't noticed, but I always do. Every single move on this team has 100% accuracy. Normally I have 2 - 4 moves that can miss, but this team just got lucky. I could switch to Fire Blast on 2 pokemon, but I don't feel the need to. And the abundance of fire moves eliminates the need for Rotom-h to use 90% accuracy Overheat. I'm usually fine with 90%, such as Leaf Storm and Leech Seed, but it's 85% and lower that tips me off.
    This set can cripple stall teams and just has great coverage in general. I don't use Trick that often, as Rotom-h is just so strong. If Flygon switch in to my Choice-locked Thunderbolt, I often just stay in. If they use U-Turn, they have to find a different Pokemon to take my Thunderbolt. If Flygon uses Outrage, it's locked and I can switch to Jirachi to use Ice Punch or Iron Head.

    Jirachi

    [​IMG]
    @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Ice Punch
    - ThunderPunch
    - Fire Punch

    Role: Revenge killer, causes opponent to ragequit while screaming names and blaming hax.

    60% chance to flinch... 10 times in a row? Only Jirachi! Not only that, I can burn, paralyze, or freeze my opponent with a Punch. Plus he's fast and can hit things super effectively.

    This used to be very popular, I have no idea what happened. Maybe the 80/75/75/75 base power of the moves is a little depressing, only 1 of them being STAB.
    I'm seriously considering changing one of these to Trick or U-Turn, Jirachi often feels like a Tyranitar who just got a kill with Pursuit. Helpless and in need of switching, granting the opponent a free turn. The base power of these moves are just too low, the only good thing about them is Iron Head's 60% flinch rate and everything else's 20% chance of status (and of course, the words "super effective!" appearing on screen).
    Just to compare power, Flygon's neutral Earthquake is just as strong as a 2x effectiveness elemental-Punch from Jirachi, meaning Jirachi must rely on 4x effectiveness, which isn't always possible.

    That's why I want U-Turn. It'll make me press the panic button less frequently.
    However, Trick can work too, since I already have a potential revenge killer in Flygon. That is not Flygon's purpose, but he can do it no problem.

    Other than that rant, Jirachi is a very good revenge killer. It tends to use Fire Punch less, but it can be useful end-game for the one Scizor that never seems to die.

    What should I do? Help!

    JUST SO YOU KNOW BEFORE READING THIS: These are mostly potential problems, some are real problems. You can figure them out. They are the weakest things about this team that I have identified by testing it on the ladder. Not all of these need to be fixed. These aren't really holding my team back, as I mentioned in the introduction, my team is very good against most things. There is no one threat that stands out as the thing that butchers my team, but some are more threatening*.

    I have no set up sweepers or substitute users.
    None of my Pokemon have access to healing, other than Rotom-h obtaining Leftovers from Trick.
    *I'm considering changing one of my Pokemon to Tinkerbell Celebi.
    *I have no water resistance (I want Celebi).
    Jirachi is considering changing a move to Trick or U-Turn.
    *Starmie and Hippowdon are potential dangers to my team. Not always. Celebi will help if I add him.
    I am open to changing my lead combo (Machamp and Heatran) if there is a more effective or beneficial one.
    3 of my Pokemon are allergic to Earthquake.

    The thing with Celebi is I don't know which team member to replace. The reason I'm open to changing my lead is because, while it is effective, it takes up 2 team slots. (Heatran doesn't always come out near the beginning, but it often does).


    Please give constructive criticism. Try not to be rude, and please give me suggestions (:

    Threat List

    Nope. Long descriptions, pretty much covered threats if you want to read.

  2. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion

    Joined:
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    try focus sash on machamp. azelf / heatran have adapted to the standard lead set youre running, ohkoing it with cb zen headbutt and specs / life orb overheat, respectively. with sash, you can take any hit and ohko them back. it also guards against random crits, which is nice. you lose out on the ability to beat roserade, but they have no way of knowing youre not running lum since thats the standard, so theyll usually just attack. i would also try ice punch > stone edge to lure + kill gliscor, which helps flygon clean late-game.

    consider running a life orb starmie instead of rotom. its slightly weaker, but its much faster and provides your team with some much-needed rapid spin support. atm you have three choiced mons, which forces you to switch a ton, and as you mentioned, none of your guys have recovery, which means they will get worn down insanely fast by stealth rock. lo starmie fixes this issue because it can 2hko every ghost in the game at bare minimum, which lets it remove sr from the field with ease. it also gives you the water resist you mentioned you'd like. a set of surf | thunderbolt | rapid spin | ice beam | thunderbolt / recover, with evs of max spatk / spe, and a timid nature should work well.

    flygon and jirachi are extremely redundant, they revenge pretty much the same mons. one of them should change to a mix set, as this will give your team more wall-breaking power and will really be the final nail in the coffin for stall teams that run rampant in dpp. flygon runs draco meteor / fire blast / earthquake / roost with life orb, a naive nature and max spatk / speed. jirachi's set is identical to your current one but it runs expert belt as the item, a hasty nature, max atk / speed evs, and thunderbolt > thunderpunch.

    tl;dr
    sash > lum and ice punch > stone edge on machamp
    life orb starmie > rotom
    mixgon > scarfgon / mixrachi> scarfrachi

    nice team, hope this helped, gl
  3. Smiles

    Smiles

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    49
    thanks that definitely helped.
    im not so excited about losing the scarf on flygon, but i'll give it a shot.
    starmie sounds like a nice choice, but the thing about 3 choiced mons is that 2 are immune to spikes, 3 to toxic spikes, and 2 resist SR. i havent had that much of a problem with switching, since rotom can give up the specs (hopefully to blissey) and flygon uses u-turn.

    idk why, but i think mixed metagross migt be a better option than jirachi. i still want to keep jirachi with a scarf if possible, but if mixed flygon fails i will try it.

    and i agree with the SE + ice punch on machamp, but bullet punch and payback both seem a little more useful since i have no go-to ghost counter.

    i guess ill test these and post my results. thanks again for the tips :)

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