Guys, I updated the main post with 2 more factors.
Thanks Great Sage for the emphasis on the disclaimer.
I'll respond to the posts in this thread now:
– caelum said:
I'm personally not a fan of modifying a game when a simulation is the goal but I must admit this would be a very interesting modified server to play on. All of them are worth discussing I think (abilities like Static and Flame Body might be included with Cute Charm / Poison Heal as well). The one I think most worth discussing is critical hits / damage ranges (they fall in the same category to me). Damage ranges to me are quite annoying as there are times when I see a move doing a certain damage X and it should 2HKO but then the damage next turn is quite less. I'd just prefer for the damage to be one number every time as I think this would make the game more consistent. I like Pokemon but I've always felt this was a poorly designed game. The game lacks many elements of consistency such as damage variation, critical hits, and 100% accurate moves missing due to Veil/Cloak or Bright Powder. It would be interesting to see a modified metagame where more consistency was introduced.
Yea, I think I need to emphasize that I in no way want this to have anything to do with the official simulation of this game. We have our simulation server, and that and this are entirely separate. It looks like you agree with at least the concept behind the idea, provided that this remains a side project, so I'll use your post to emphasize that point:
This will be a modified server, and one independent from official simulation.
– Athrosu said:
Since you desire to keep total control over this debate, this post will be a criticism of the idea that these are issues and your plan to correct them. If potential addition of ideas is discussable, then surely potential subtraction of issues should be as well.
People tend to be against significantly altering the mechanics of a Pokemon simulator. Anyway, there's nothing "fucking bullshit" about missing twice in a row with a move like Focus Blast with its lovely 70% accuracy. It's the risk you take in using a move with a 70% accuracy, and there's nothing really improbable or "hax" about missing twice in a row. You're throwing the word "expected" around a whole bunch, but I'd venture to say that your problem is that the problem is with your expectations rather than the game if you really think there needs to be a RULE against Hypnosis missing twice in a row. There's balance issues, too - there's a definite if complicated balance between a move's power, accuracy, effects, and PP, and if you screw with accuracy or effects, you destroy that balance.
Besides, doing things according to "expectations" is totally arbitrary. The moment you (for example) take status off one move because you don't think it's "expected" but leave it on another move which has the same chance of applying the same status because you think it's "expected" there (Flamethrower and Fire Blast, for instance, have the same chance to burn on hit), you should realize that any hope of doing things in an orderly and balanced fashion has completely collapsed. As long as you base the entire debate on "expectations" alone, it's doomed to fail - you need hard rules to invent a new metagame, not wishy-washy guidelines or opinions.
Critical hits are an issue that draws discussion time and time again and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, and Sand Veil/Snow Cloak are worth discussing as well considering how popular Evasion Clause is, but the rest of your issues, I think, are crippled by the fundamental flaws I outlined above.
Um...lol. I don't think you read my post or something. I've already stated that this would be an arbitrary endeavor. I already know this will be more guided by intuition than hard defined lines. Is there anything else you would like to "tell" me?
– Mystica said:
Ugh, this is what so many of us "competitive battlers" want but I really don't think it can happen to this much extent Aldaron. You've written a very well thought out proposition, but I really think some things can't be done.
But, I really agree with you on Critical hits, what an excellent idea! Also what you talked about having some moves miss when they were "expected" to hit. (Like Toxic, or Sleep Powder missing twice in a row is DEFINITELY "fucking bullshit" It seriously seems like that 2.25% chance of Toxic missing twice in a row happends alot more than it should. Same with Hypnosis). But making all moves 100% accuracy is just stupid, as it ruins some moves purpose (like fireblast and flamethrower).
I don't tihnk the damage range should be tampered with, christ, is that truely even a problem? Yes it might do 46% one turn then 55% then next turn, isn't that "expected"?
Sandviel and Snow Cloak is indeed "fucking bullshit". What an asshole ability lol (omg that made me laugh pretty hard Aldaron hehe)
But in the end I dont think this well ever happen...
Why can't it happen? I'm allowed to make a server on Shoddy and change the mechanics lol. Again, I need to emphasize how this project's goal is to take what we like about Pokemon, and improve what we don't. Since we are changing Pokemon, I know we aren't playing Pokemon anymore, so it can't be official or anything. Since this can't be official, it simply falls on us to actually implement it.
– Rkatzam said:
1. Crits - So about the increase of a crit rate everytime they use a certain move in a row, what if it's a Calm Mind Clefable who decides to shuffle Cosmic Power and Softboiled? It would still be problematic because the increasing crit rate will be reseted every time... or did I miss something here?
2. I agree, although pokemon like Froslass who rely on it with paralysis support would lose an effective strategy. I'm not sure I like that.
3. Damage Range - I think it's perfectly fine right now. I don't see how doing 85-100 is "annoying".. it only makes the gaming tougher when you need to decide if you wanna invest a few more EVs to ensure a kill. I think it makes the game more interesting.
4. Fire Blast and Blizzard are different from Thunder, only having 10% chance to cause a burn / freeze. Personally I really hate that stuff, a random freeze can pretty much ruin an entire game. Don't forget pokemon with Serene Grace, like Togekiss who still won't mind the 20% burn rate from Flamethrower, although I'm not sure people actually consider Flamethrower for that. But regardless, I'm in favor of removing the secondary effects from every move with a 10% chance. 20% and above leans more towards "strategy" than "hax" imo.
5. Hypnosis missing 3 times in a row is a real bitch. I wouldn't mind having it increased by 15% or 20% each turn after it misses, seems more fair to me. It's even more frustrating when you think of it as "oh great, if I used Sheer Cold 3 times now in a row, I would hit all 3".
6. Don't forget abilities like Static who are even more important in a game that revolves so much about speed. I believe these should be left alone, as 30% is already a respectable chance. Don't forget the enemy can avoid this by not using a contact move. It could also be cleverly used by the opponent to switch into a contant move without any risk to cause a poisoning / paralysis.
7. That is the most problematic issue imo, because it can be used as a perfectly viable strategy by numerous pokes (ParaFusion IE). As for paralysis, I suggest making it somewhat like the Hypnosis missing thing, only the opposite - if you can't move from a paralysis the 1st turn, the paralysis chance should decrease the 2nd turn, reseted everytime you're fully paralysed.
Good post.
Thanks for posting what I wanted, lol. As for the clarification on the first point, I meant succssive moves that you use, not that your opponent uses. So if you use Flamethrower 3 times in a row, then it will activate the CH chance.
– Amsp1 said:
2 quick things I think should be clarified:
Stat increase/decrease moves - would moves like Shadow Ball, Psychic, Energy Ball etc.. be treated in the same way as 10% status inducing moves?
Serene Grace - If a serene grace user, Blissey for example, uses Flamethrower, would the same rule apply?
Good point, and I think these are separate from the status ones, so Ill edit them in shortly. As for the Serene Grace issue, I believe I'll have to open that up for discussion, as I am not sure what we could do with that. Serene Grace strategies are often "expected," so I would like people to keep that in mind.
– TAY said:
As moves have their abilities/accuracy reduced and increased, will there be an adjustment to base power as well? If Stone Edge moves up to 100% accuracy, I think it should lose its high critical hit rate; especially in an environment where critical hits are horribly difficult to pull off this move seems a bit overpowered.
What will happen to non-Machamp, non-Gravity Dynamicpunch/Zap Canon? I know these aren't horribly popular choices anyway, but I have lost to a series of non-Machamp Dynamicpunches and let me tell you: it sucks.
Serene Grace should have the exact same effect it does now (e.g. Zen Headbutt has 60% chance to flinch, flamethrower has 20% chance to burn). You mention intent a lot in the OP, and using Serene Grace - Even on Jirachi imo - demonstrates purposefully going for a low-probability event.
I'm assuming hax items (quick claw, focus band) will be outright banned.
Yea, I'd just outright hax items. As for the lowering and increasing of the general power of moves, I believe we'd just leave that up to intuition. Since this project is already steeped in arbitrary decisions, I see no reason why we can't trust the intuition of various experienced battlers.
– blasphemy1 said:
Serene Grace abusers typically have moves with a high percent of effects, so these would fall under the "expected". Abilities such as Poison Point, Static, and Cute Charm should all be expected as well, so I see no point in getting rid of them.
I think OmegaDonut's idea would work quite well.
As for the critical hits, I hate it when I get critical hit, but how will we deal with stat boosts? What happens when you accidentally allow Suicune 2 Calm Minds too many? Sometimes, you can get lucky and critical hit them for the kill, stopping a sweep. Suicune is not hard to set up, so it isn't like I am just that bad. Could we increase the critical hit ratio when the opponent has stat boosts, much like Punishment's increase in power? Of course, it would have to be the same attacking stat as the opponent's boosts, but it could work.
I think Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower should have their effect percentage reduced. It is extremely annoying when you switch into Cresselia with Suicune or maybe Heatran, only to be frozen for 10 turns. This has happened far too often, and I think moves with 10% should just have 0% chance of effects.
I think the damage range is perfectly fine. It may seem "too large" but when you think about it it makes since. Let's say it would do 30-33% if it was neutral, but if it was super effective it would do 60-66%, so of course this area will increase. A SD boost will give you the same results, and is essentially hitting the opposite pokemon for SE as long as the move is neutral.
Other than that this sounds like a great idea, and I would love to play on a server like that.
Again, thanks for posting what I wanted. For your CH concern, I stated that my check here would be to initiate the ch percentage if a move was used consecutively, to help CH those Cosmic Power or other defensive boosting Pokemon.
– Tangerine said:
I believe that luck is something gamefreak put into the game simply to increase the variety within the battle. Without luck, matches are essentially over the second the battle starts - much like in Chess where people know the "best moves" based on the situations and, without a luck factor, people put in a lot of thought into the moves and try to predict what the opponent to do. In this sense, the only "luck factor" in chess is your opponent - which isn't really "luck" at all.
You told me on irc that you are assuming equal skill, so I can't respond the way I wanted to lol.
– Mr. Goodbar said:
The proposals are interesting, and its great to think about a less "haxy" game. Though, from amount of people that claimed they wanted shoddy to simulate the game as much as possible (from the restricted legend IVs poll), I'd wonder how people would react to this... I just learn to deal with the consequences of hax because it isn't terribly that it drastically affects the game and occasionally it will benefit you as well, so those kinda even each other out sort of
Again, this would be a modded server in no way related to the official server or the official Smogon server. There really should beno politics here, as if you don't like the idea, it doesn't matter, as this will never be forced upon you. Like I said before, what I want to do is take what is competitive and appealing in Pokemon, the preparation team building part, and maximize the appeal of the battling part myself and with others in order to create my ideal metagame.
–Seven Deadly Sins said:
I'd like to suggest a simplified variant on this idea, inspired by the RNG of the game Fire Emblem. In Fire Emblem, the RNG, when making hit checks, rolls two numbers and averages them. As a result, the chances of a 70% hitrate increase substantially, as it would have to roll a miss twice in a row in order to miss- the hitrate of a 70% hitrate move would effectively be 91%, 80% moves up to 96%, and 90% to 99%. It also has the side effect of decreasing the effect of Evasion on the game, as evasion bonuses from Snow Cloak and Sand Veil drop significantly on moves with less than 90% accuracy.
This is effectively exactly the same as the one suggested by Nate- in both cases, the RNG would have to effectively miss twice. However, this secondary method requires less checks, which would simplify matters a great deal.
Isn't this just changing the accuracy to 91%? I think making each iteration of a 70% accurate move 91% accurate is too much. But again, I'm running this on intuition, so we would have to see and figure out for ourselves what would be best for this metagame.
Master of the Six Kings said:
Add Tri Attack to number 4. That move ticks me off in so many ways. I always get burned on my Gut-less physical attacker. And frozen on everything else.
Anyway, i like most ideas stated here, to co-exsist with the regular way of battling. I know I've left after a few bad matches because it seems like "lady luck" just wasn't making the cut. Introducing another alternative seems like a very beneficail action to me. And I'm pretty sure that the asshole abilities can be replaced with other abilities. It isn't that hard.
I'm not sure I like the idea of adding Tri-Attack to that, only because the status on that move is "expected." Still, it's up for debate.
Alright, so among the people who get the point of this thread (lol), there seems to be most contention with the damage range topic, so I'm opening the floor for anyone who wants to discuss his thoughts on this topic.