A View of Sandslash: Is it a superior choice to Donphan?

[Yagami Light]

That's understating things a bit I think. Donphan is no garchomp, but STAB'd EQs off a 120 base attack is nothing to sneer at either.

No doubt that 120 Base Atk STAB EQ hurts, but last poke Skarmory, Bronzong, any recovering Pokemon is a pretty much no win scenario for Donphan.

Cool, I'm just saying how I think I would use it, which is allowed hahaha. Any way, I guess Sandslash does kinda have a cool move pool. But no priority move! Thats what makes Donphan so much more appealing. It scares the pants off of those dragons.

And I mean those ev spreads say alot......

A good discussion non the less.

No, I understand perfectly what you're getting at. With the EV spread Lee provided, it really does make Sandslash look worse. But I'd say SD/Sand Veil/and all the other reasons do make up for that and Ice Shard. But hey, that's debatable, which is why I made the topic in the first place.

 

[Jolt99]

I just had a look at the calcs and Bloody Hell! Slashy is way sturdier than I thought it was!

He'd be top OU with ice shard and slack off IMO.

 

[moogleking]

I use Donphan to counter Garchomp, with the right EV spread (don't have it to hand) he can 2HKO Gar with Ice Shard and is only 3HKO'd back.

 

[Articanus]

I would probably stick Stealth Rock over Rapid Spin, but then you'd, once again, have something Garchomp would do better.

I've always had a problem packing a spinner on my offensive teams. Nice work, I may have to give it a try.

I hate Donphan with a passion. Sure, it can take hits better overall, and has a priority move in the form of Ice Shard, but does it matter if Garchomp switches in on SR, takes 2 Ice Shards, and hits back with a SDed Outrage? I haven't looked too much into Sandslash's movepool, but doesn't it get Fire Punch? Meaning it could beat Skarmory 1-on-1?

Another thing: if your going to put so much emphasis on Sandslash's higher base speed, shouldn't you use a little more speed? Assuming there's anything worth outspeeding. How about Metagross?

 

[Blissey_ODonnell]

Even with Swords Dance, Sandslash isn't doing jack squat to Gliscor/Skarmory, though. Donphan can at least hamper them by Knocking Off their item, or Roar them away.

 

[Kijin]

Knock Off, Ice Shard, and higher generally everything was what I thought made Donphan an asset to teams. Donphan gives you a utility you cannot achieve with a Swords Dancing Rapid Spinner, which in itself is a kind of contradiction, as Rapid Spinners generally operate as support Pokemon with some kind of Stab to not get wiped out when left to singular combat (except for some Forretresses, I guess).

When you start giving your spinner stuff like Swords Dance without the speed to back it up when, say, anything with a Stab'd special attack comes in (Grass Knot excluded), you wind up having a lot of dead air.

I know you said Gengar gets 2hko'd by Night Slash; Sandslash is 2hko'd (Damage: 70.34% - 82.77%) on HP Ice 70, assuming 252 Special Attack against 252 HP/0 SpD and no Special Attack boosting items on Gengar, and then outspeeds Sandslash for the second strike.

Additionally, I think you're more likely to be wary of Garchomp SDs, Earthquakes and Outrages... as well as things like Metagross, BOAH, etc.

Edit: After SD or a Critical, Sandslash gets a ohko on Gengar (4/0/0/252/0/252).

 

[Fenikkusu]

No doubt that 120 Base Atk STAB EQ hurts, but last poke Skarmory, Bronzong, any recovering Pokemon is a pretty much no win scenario for Donphan.

While setting up with sandslash may provide some sweeping ability, Donphan's power comes from his utility, being able to Roar/SR like a Hippo, Ice shard to take out any weakened dragons, Knock Off etc. Heck if it really wanted to boast higher speed than a sandslash, it could always rock polish.

I'm all for Sandslash usage, but please don't try things like:

Donphan is a sitting duck to every form of set up in the game

when the elephant learns Roar.

 

[Blissey_ODonnell]

Not to mention that even without Roar, Donphan prevents certain threatening Pokemon from setting up, like SD/DD Dragons, SDLuke, DDTar, and AgiliGross, because of his excellent physical defense and super-effective attacks.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I like the sandslash idea, and although he occupies a different niche, if you need a spinner and you got sand stream or gengar trouble, he could be your man.

 

[obi]

I see no reason to use Sandslash without Rapid Spin, because then it's just a worse Gliscor / Garchomp / whatever. I see no reason to use it without Swords Dance because then it's just a worse Donphan (unless you really like Sand Veil). The only other real advantage I'd give Sandslash is probably X-Scissor if you hate Celebi (and since you are lighter, you can probably survive a Grass Knot).

 

[Blu]

Why is the move Counter for Sandslash not mentioned?

Imo, Counter over SD would be better since SD is hard to pull off

Counter can surprise CB Adamant Outraging Garchomp, and other hard hitting PhySweepers

 

[Fenikkusu]

Donphan can counter as well though, not to mention doing weird tricks like endeavor-sharding (lol @ phanpy FEAR style).

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I see no reason to use Sandslash without Rapid Spin, because then it's just a worse Gliscor / Garchomp / whatever. I see no reason to use it without Swords Dance because then it's just a worse Donphan (unless you really like Sand Veil). The only other real advantage I'd give Sandslash is probably X-Scissor if you hate Celebi (and since you are lighter, you can probably survive a Grass Knot).

This.

It seems like the major issue with people constantly harping on how UU has the most diverse metagame are generally the people that want to use things in UU as worse substitutes for things in OU. You simply can't do that, nor should you even try.

If you have any intention on using Sandslash in OU, don't try to copy pasta a Donphan. You're merely gimping yourself for not actually using Donphan. Does that mean Sandslash isn't useful? Ofcourse not, you just need to play to its strengths.

Sandslash has a few things over Donphan:
Swords Dance
Sand Veil
X-scissor
Night Slash
Shadow Claw
Focus Punch
Aeriel Ace
Much Lighter (so better Grass Knot survivability)

Thats about all I could see. This isn't exactly the only move pool you should be using; since STAB EQs are always fun, Rapid Spin and Stealth Rocks are always useful, but you need to really find the proper niche that Sandslash fills on your team.

 

[Forsety]

Much Lighter (so better Grass Knot survivability)

With worse HP and spcl.def? Yeaaah thats really a advantage.

 

[Mekkah]

With worse HP and spcl.def? Yeaaah thats really a advantage.

Nice try, maybe you can back up sarcastic statements with a damage calc next time!

I think the major reason *I* would use Donphan over Sandslash is because I want a Rapid Spinner. Swords Dance on a Rapid Spinner doesn't really seem very valuable to me, most of the time he should be Spinning out these Spikes and getting the hell out. He's not fast enough to sweep and it usually only takes only one hit from a counter to bring Sandslash to his knees (and two to get it scooped back to where it came from). It probably makes him better in the endgame if he can find a hole, but rarely ever is Sandslash ideal for these situations.

I think Donphan's ability to Ice Shard Focus Sashers and weakened Garchomps/Salamences is much more valuable than what seems a feeble attempt at sweeping to me.

Good effort though.

 

[Bologo]

With worse HP and spcl.def? Yeaaah thats really a advantage.

Uhh, Grass Knot is 100 BP on Donphan, while only 60 BP on Sandslash, so yes, the listed advantage does stand. Even with the piss poor special defense that Sandslash has, it still takes a lot less damage from Grass Knot than Donphan does thanks to being much much lighter.

 

[Mekkah]

Sandslash: 354 HP/146 SpDef
Donphan: 384 HP/156 SpDef

300 attack vs 146 defense, 60 power(* 2), 354 max HP: 50.28% - 59.32%
300 attack vs 156 defense, 100 power(* 2), 384 max HP: 72.14% - 84.9%

The calculator is not accurate, but it doesn't change a thing about Grass Knot doing less to Sandslash.

 

[Forsety]

Fair enough, I thought Sandslash fell into the 80 damage range, I'm getting 70% regions here for Sandslash and 100% for Donphan using Celebi as the attacker so the calcs look accurate enough. I'm just bitter from memories of Sandslash's piss poor s.def getting him killed by even neutral attacks.

I wouldn't mind Sandslash as a defensive utility Pokemon if it actually HAD defensive utility options, it doesn't even learn a recovery have some more useful ability or even phaze move. But the advantages Sandslash has all edge it towards an attacker that happens to be decently sturdy that doesn't meet any real niches besides being a cute yet badass mouse. Reason I don't consider it a niche is because then its beginning to edge into Marrowak territory which shares similar if not stronger defenses and offenses.

 

[Boingo]

Is Special Defense even an argument?

Donphan: 60 Base
Sandslah: 55 Base

It's not like Donphan is a Special Defense-God compared to Sandslash.

 

[kd24]

I prefer SandSlash for SubSDEQSE. However I like this idea as well replacing Sub with Rapid Spin. I could test it out.

 

[Blln]

Um, I think your CBTar damage calcs seem a little weird. I keep coming up with 25% - 31% on MetalKid's calculator. I have heard MetalKid's calculator has some slight errors, but even still yours seems too low.

And regarding Sandslash, it seems like really the only benefit he has over Donphan is Swords Dance, and I guess X-Scissor for Celebi, but in exchange he actually does take hits alot worse than Donphan does to the extent that many moves that would 3HKO Donphan end up 2HKOing Sandslash, for example +Atk CBInfernape Close Combat/Flare Drive is doing 46% - 54% to Donphan, which is like a 3HKO 99% of the time, whereas that same Infernape ends up doing 53% - 62% to Sandslash, a guaranteed 2HKO. Another more worrying example is that CBMetagross Meteor Mash has like a 1% chance of 2HKOing Donphan, and a 100% chance of 2HKOing Sandslash. Now I'm not saying either of these two matchups are what make Sandslash worse than Donphan, they just show that the stat drop from Donphan to Sandslash actually does cause some tangible differences in hit-taking ability, for what seems to me like minimal gain.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think Sandslash's biggest advantage over Donphan is takinga 60 bp Grass Knots, which is actually really awesome, but yeah I still like Donphan better, because of his better hit-taking ability and Ice Shard. Like Obi already pointed out, Sandslash having Nightslash is pretty much cancelled out by Donphan being able to 2HKO Gengar with Stone Edge/Assurance.

edit: but I do think your analysis was very well presented :)

 

[Yagami Light]

Ah, my Metalkid calcs were a little weird. I forgot to factor in a +1 Atk boost. Trust me, I'm not trying to oversell Sandslash.

And that applies to the whole topic really, I'm trying my best to show (What I hope is objectively) the advantages that Sandslash has over Donphan in weight/Sand Veil/SD/some moves et cetera. I'm not saying that Sandslash beats Donphan at everything, because if it did the community would have used him far longer than I have. I'm just saying that Sandslash can do things that Donphan can't, and vice versa, and trying to present an argument for it.

And I'll edit in that Sandslash does not get Ice Shard, since that's quite the move.

 

[gorm]

actually bk used this on me and i got badly swept since it beat both of my safest switches into regular bulky grounds (cele and gyara e__e)

 

[Aki]

Psh, this thread is completely shut down by the fact that Donphan does what donphan does better than Sandslash. As soon as you chuck X-Scissor or Night slash on there, you can't compare them, can you? The case is the same for Donphan and Ice shard. Simple fact is, Donphan Spins and is a better utility pokemon than Sandslash, Who has the movepool to pull off a Decent CB/Mix utility set.

What idiot would be leaving Donphan/Sandslash in celebi to take a grass knot, anyway?

Anyway, i voted the last one. The superior spinner is Fortress, as he can spike as well, and set up Scarftran quite nicely.

 

[Yagami Light]

Psh, this thread is completely shut down by the fact that Donphan does what donphan does better than Sandslash. As soon as you chuck X-Scissor or Night slash on there, you can't compare them, can you? The case is the same for Donphan and Ice shard. Simple fact is, Donphan Spins and is a better utility pokemon than Sandslash, Who has the movepool to pull off a Decent CB/Mix utility set.

What idiot would be leaving Donphan/Sandslash in celebi to take a grass knot, anyway?

Anyway, i voted the last one. The superior spinner is Fortress, as he can spike as well, and set up Scarftran quite nicely.

Hahaha, you do have a point. Donphan is a better Donphan than Sandslash. :happybrain: But yes, Donphan is better for pure utility. And as far as Celebi goes, sometimes you just don't have a choice, you know?