AAA Ferrothorn QC (1/3)

[Scyther NO Swiping]

QC: aesf / X / X
GP: X / X

[OVERVIEW]

• Ferrothorn has excellent defensive typing of Steel / Grass giving it 11 resistances, 1 immunity and only 2 weaknesses allowing it to withstand many offensive threats.
• Ferrothorn has high Defense, and Sp Def and good draining moves making it a good tank to wear down teams
• Flash Fire and Primordial Sea allow it to eliminate its 4x weakness to fire, leaving it with only one weakness.
• It also has a great support move pool in terms of hazards, status moves, and HP draining moves, and gains access to abilities to make it an amazing support team member.
• Though normally its offense is overlooked, it has a surprisingly good offensive move pool and decent attack which it can take advantage of due to gaining some offensive abilities.
• It has poor speed, which makes it fall victim to taunt, but also give it maximum base power on Gyro Ball.
• It falls victim to Magnet Pull opponents
• It lacks a reliable form of recovery that other walls possess, with Leech Seed, its only HP draining move being easily blocked by Magic Bounce/Guard.
• Because Flash Fire Ferrothorn is so common, Fire Type users such as Victini often switch out without confirming Ferrothorn has Flash Fire.
• Ferrothorn is a good switch-in to many powerful Pokemon, such as Entei.
• Great on a stall team to wear down members of the opposing team.
• Good towards the middle of the match to cripple opponents towards the end.

[SET]
name: Fire Proof Tank
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Worry Seed / Thunder Wave / Gyro Ball
move 3: Knock Off / Power Whip
move 4: Spikes / Protect / Stealth Rock
item: Leftovers
ability: Primordial Sea / Flash Fire
nature: Impish
evs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• Leech Seed is Ferrothorn's only reliable way of recovery. It also works well to wear down the opponent.
• Worry Seed works to replace the target's chosen ability with insomnia, destroying many opponent strategies in this meta, especially with Poison Heal mons.
• Protect buys Ferrothorn turns for Leech Seed / Toxic to wear down the opponent, and also let it recover with Leech Seed / Leftovers. It also can help scout the moves of the foe.
• Knock Off serves as an attacking move that can sometimes cripple the opponent by riding it of its item. It also has PP and can be used many times throughout the match
• Power Whip serves as a strong STAB attack that can KO opponents after they are worn down by Leech Seed.

Set Details
========

• Both these abilities eliminate Ferrothorn's 4X weakness to fire, leaving it only weak to fighting.
• Primordial Sea is not affected by Mold Breaker, however, it does strengthen the opponent's water attacks.
• Will-O-Wisp also affects Primordial Sea Ferrothorn but not Flash Fire Ferrothorn.
• The EV Spread allows Ferrothorn to take advantage of its strong defensive stats to take on physical threats such as Victini, and also take two ice beams from non Sheer Force Manaphy and 2HKO it with Power Whip.
• Leftovers is crucial to the set as it buys time for Ferrothorn on the field to recover HP especially when paired with Leech Seed.

Usage Tips
========

• Great wall to Poison Heal sweepers with Worry Seed and strong defenses
• Before setting up hazards, it is necessary to scout for Magic Bouncers.
• Ferrothorn goes great on stall teams as it is the perfect mon to take multiple hits from big threats and wear down opposing foes.
• Ferrothorn walls a large number of threats in the meta such as Victini, and Entei.
• If using Flash Fire beware of Mold Breaker Fire Type users such as Victini.
• Try not to let Ferrothorn take a Knock Off, because losing its leftovers limits its durability.
• Beware of Trick on things that Ferrothorn switches into like Victini and Latias.
• Ferrothorn is able to switch into water type threats such as Suicune and Manaphy, and Power Whip allows Ferrothorn to deal strong damage to these threats.
• It does need to beware of Scald burns, which would cripple it.

Team Options
========

• Hazard Control Mon - A teammate such as Defog Zapdos, or Rapid Spin Blastoise can remove hazards. Blastoise can remove hazards on your side of the field, without removing hazards that you set.
• Heal Bell Support such as Chansey or Diancie to help keep Ferrothorn status free of Burns and Paralysis.
• Wish Passers - Wish passers such as Vaporeon, Chansey, or Umbreon, can be used to nurse a worn down Ferrothorn back to full health.
• Mold Breaker Deoxys Defense or another hazard setter to lay hazards to help slowly wear down the opponent.
• Genesect or Scizor Mega - Fire Proof Ferrothorn works amazingly well with these two 4x fire weak Pokemon as you switch to Ferrothorn if you predict a fire move against those two.
• Sweepers such as Braviary and Lucario appreciate the hazards brought by Ferrothorn
• Poison Heal Azumarill can soak up status moves, and powerful moves from fighting types while Ferrothorn can take the Electric, poison, and grass moves that Azumarill can't.

[SET]
name: Unaware Tank
move 1: Spikes / Stealth Rock
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Power Whip / Knock Off / Gyro Ball
move 4: Thunder Wave / Knock Off / Worry Seed
item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
ability: Unaware
nature: Impish
evs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Special Defense

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

• The first move slot is for Ferrothorn to support its team with entry hazards that hurt the opposite team and help to wear them down over the course of battle.
• Leech Seed serves to wear down the opponent and it is also Ferrothorn's most reliable form of recovery.
• Power Whip serves as a strong STAB attack that can 2HKO Manaphy.
• Gyro Ball is an alternative to Power Whip, and because of Ferrothorn's low speed it is capable of reaching full 150 base power
• Gyro Ball while it can be extremely powerful, only has 8 PP.
• Knock Off is a powerful attack the first time it hits a foe, and it rids the foe of its item which can really hurt many defensive threats such as Chansey and Doublade.
• Knock Off has a lot of PP which allows Ferrothorn to use it over the duration of the match.
• Thunder Wave is to help slow down and possibly immobilize opposing threats so Ferrothorn's teammates can easily outspeed them. However, paralyzing the foe does weaken the strength of Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball.
• Worry Seed replaces the target's ability with Insomnia, destroying many strategies of opposing teams in this meta.
• Leech Seed negates Poison Heal recovery allowing PH foes to be killed easier by Ferrothorn or one of its teammates.

Set Details
========

• The EV spread helps Ferrothorn withstand 2 Ice Beams from non Sheer Force Manaph and 2HKO it with Power whip.
• Leftovers helps Ferrothorn live longer by regaining health each turn. It adds up when paired with Leech Seed.
  
• Rocky Helmet helps to wear down foes who use contact moves on Ferrothorn.
• Unaware stops many set up sweepers such as Tail Glow Manaphy, Calm Mind Suicune, and CurseLax in their tracks.

Usage Tips
========

• Try to scout the team for Magic Bounce before setting hazards or using hazard moves.
• Ferrothorn ignites at the sight of fire so beware of any fire type foe.
• Unaware ignores the foe's stat changes which makes Ferrothorn a great counter to a set up sweeper that would otherwise decimate your team.
• Try to keep Ferrothorn status free as statuses limit its longevity.
• Try to use Leech Seed on the first turn you switch Ferrothorn in.

Team Options
========

• Sweepers such as Braivary and Lucario appreciate the support of Unaware Tank Ferrothorn.
• Heal Bell Support - Heal Bell Users such as Chansey, or Umbreon help keep Ferrothorn free from paralysis and burn over the course of the match.
• Wish support - support from wish users from Chansey, Umbreon, or Vaporeon, helps Ferrothorn take multiple hits by restoring it back to full health over the course of the match.
• Other Walls - Other walls such as Doublade, and Skarmory appreciate the work that Ferrothorn does to help wear down the opponent.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

• Hazard Setter - This set would use Prankster or Mold Breaker as the ability along with Spikes and Rocks, and two filler moves. This strategy works because of Ferrothorn's great support movepool.
• Regenerator - Because of Ferrothorn's high defensive stats, it is a mon that is capable of switching in to take a hit, and then switching out to regain health. Paired with Leech Seed and Leftovers this could allow Ferrothorn to regain health very quickly and be around for the duration of a battle.
• Magic Bounce Tank - Because of its great defenses Ferrothorn also works as Magic Bounce Tank. Magic Bounce sends the opponents hazards back at them. This Ferrothorn appreciates Leech Seed to wear down the foe, as well as Leftovers or a Rocky Helmet.
• Iron Head is another option for Steel STAB that does reliable damage and has far more PP than Gyro Ball.
• Flash Fire Curse Ferrothorn is a solid sweeper once fighting types have been removed since it can't be statused by Will-O-Wisp or Toxic.
• Banded Tough Claws gives Ferrothorn the option for powerful Knock Off / Gyro Ball / Power Whip set.

Checks and Counters
===================

• Victini - Mold Breaker Victini destroys Flash Fire Ferrothorn, and Desolate Land Victini destroys Primordial Sea Ferrothorn. However if you predict a switch to Mold Breaker Victini, and you hit it with Worry Seed on switch in, it is helpless with trying to hurt Ferrothorn.
• Magnet Pull Users - Many Mega Pokemon such as Ampharos, Blastoise, and Pinsir, have Magnet Pull as their ability before they evolve. They then mega and hit with a strong fighting attack.
• Fighting Types - Ferrothorn has a weakness to fighting types such as Lucario and Pangoro.
• Magic Bounce / Guard - Ferrothorn relies on Hazards, Leech Seed, and Status moves to damage the opponent, Magic Bounce users throw these things back in Ferrothorn's face. Magic Guard allows the opponent to not be hurt by the hazards that Ferrothorn sets.
• Taunt Users - Because of Ferrothorn's low speed and large dependence on support moves it is vulnerable to taunt.
• Entry Hazards - Ferrothorn is relatively weak to entry hazards due to no reliable form of recovery.

** **:

 

[Scyther NO Swiping]

Ready for QC Check

 

[Adrian Marin]

Overview:

• Include its typing as a reason why it's a good sponge to many threats.
• Flash Fire and Primordial Sea allow it to eliminate its 4x weakness to Fire, not 'AAA.'
• Explain the pros and cons of its poor Speed.

Set :

• Not really important, but we know AAA is the meta in question, there's really no need remind us.
• Include Toxic in OO and add Stealth Rock as a slash for Worry Seed instead.
• Mention that Protect also helps scout moves.
• Also mention that Knock Off has fantastic PP and can repeatedly be used throughout the match.
• I believe Spikes should be the main slash. Make Protect the 2nd and Stealth Rock the 3rd.
• Ferrothorn can switch in against threats such as Manaphy, so Power Whip's ability to hurt strong offensive Water-types should be mentioned.
• In usage tips, explain how it's necessary to scout for Magic Bounce Pokemon before setting up hazards.
• Mention that Primordial Sea is not affected by Mold Breaker, but it gives Ferrothorn a much harder time against strong Water-types.
• Replace the current spread with a spread of 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 SpD. This spread optimises physical Ferrothorn's Physical bulk to take on Victini, while letting it take two Ice Beams from non-Sheer Force Manaphy and 2HKO it with Power Whip.
• Change "Ferrothorn can be a switch-in to most moves" into "Ferrothorn is a good switch-in to many powerful Pokemon, such as Entei and Braviary.
• Expand on Ferrothorn's merits on stall teams. Explain how Ferrothorn can wall a large number of threats, namely Victini, Entei, and Refrigerate Thundurus.

Other Options, Team Options, and Checks and Counters

• Add Heal Bell supporters such as Diancie and Chansey and explain its synergy under Team Options
• Mention that Rapid Spinners such as Blastoise can help remove hazards without having to remove the hazards Ferrothorn has set up.
• Add Wish-passers such as Vaporeon and explain its synergy under Team Options.
• Replace "Brave Bird Sweepers" with "Sweepers such as Braviary and Lucario appreciate the hazards brought by Ferrothorn."
• Include Fighting-types in C&C.
• Include Magic Bounce Pokemon in C&C.
• Remove Ferrothorn from C&C and mention Magic Bounce under Team Options.

I'm really sorry, but we've decided that set two and three should be removed. Add an Unaware set and I'll QC check.

 

[Scyther NO Swiping]

Add an Unaware set and I'll QC check.

All Changes implemented. Ready for QC check.

 

[aesf]

Overview

• Mention how Ferrothorn's effectiveness as a wall is hindered by magnet pull.
• When talking about its typing, possibly mention how it has 9 weaknesses, 1 immunity, and only 2 weaknesses.
• Talk about how it has no reliable recovery for a wall, and leech seed, its only form of recovery, is easily stopped by magic bounce and grass types.
• *maybe* mention how Flash Fire Ferrothorn is such a well known threat that it's extremely easy to force out pokemon like victini even when you're not flash fire.

Set 1

• Possibly slash Gyro Ball after Worry Seed. I'm not exactly sure where to put it, maybe you can find a good place for it.
• Change Sp Def. to SpD. (very minor, but still an easy thing to implement)
  
• Slash Thunder Wave after Worry Seed
• In "moves", remove the bullet about toxic, since that's not even in the moveset..
• In "moves", when you mention how ferrothorn can switch into water types, note that is still must be wary of being burned by scald, which cripples it.
• Merge the last two bullets in "moves" to just say "Power Whip hits the bulky water types that Ferrothorn typically gets thrown at, however it must be wary of scald burns" or however you want to reword that.
  
• In Set Details, note how unlike with flash fire, Will-o-wisp still burns Primordial Sea Ferrothorn.
• Usage Tips: I know this was suggested by another QC, but take off mentions of switching into braviary. It can't switch in.
• Usage Tips: I would move the 1st, 3rd, 4th, and last bullets to the overview, since it seems to fit that better. However, this leaves you with not too many bullets in Usage Tips. Also, merge the 1st and last bullets and remove switching into Thundurus as an option.
  
• Usage Tips: If using flash fire, making sure to pay attention to Mold Breaker users.
• Usage Tips: Try not to let Ferrothorn take a knock off, as losing leftovers limits its longevity.
• Usage Tips: Certain things that switch Ferrothorn switches into, like latios and Victini, carry trick, so watch out for that.
• Team Options: Mold Breaker Victini doesn't lose to motor drive manaphy. Bolt Strike breaks through Motor drive and v-create destroys manaphy anyways. delete this bullet.
• Team Options: Poison Heal Azumarill is the perfect teammate for ferrothorn. It can soak up status moves, and powerful moves from fighting types while Ferrothorn can take the Electric, poison, and grass moves that Azumarill can't.

Set 2

• Moves: Slash Knock Off before gyro ball.
• Moves: When talking about the attacking move, mention how Gyro Ball has low PP. Also, this is a minor error but Gyro Ball caps at 150 BP not 120.
• Moves: Similarly, mention how Knock Off has high PP.
• Moves: Mention how Thunder Wave weakens Gyro Ball's power if you choose to use it on the same set.
• Moves: Put another knock off option before Worry Seed, as worry seed isn't too useful since you wall almost all relevant PH users anyways, and two attacks is generally good.
• Moves: Mention how Leech seed negates Poison Heal recovery, enabling them to be killed much more easily.
• Usage Tips: Try to avoid getting Ferrothorn statused, as this severely limits its survivability.
• Usage Tips: It's usually a good idea to use leech seed the first turn you switch in.

OO and C&C

• Other Options: Mention how a banded tough claws set boasts an incredibly powerful Gyro Ball + Knock Off + Power Whip.
• Other Options: Flash Fire curse is a pretty solid set that can sweep once fighting types are out of the question, especially since it cannot get statused by will-o-wisp or toxic.
• Other Options: Iron Head is another option for Steel STAB that has far more pp and brings reliable damage.
• C&C: Take out the mention of magnet pull sweepers, and change it to just "magnet pull pokemon". Also, a solid magnet pull pokemon will be able to trap Ferrothorn anyways, so take away any mention of living an attack from a magnet pull pokemon.
• C&C: Mention entry hazards, due to Ferrothorn's lack of self healing moves and leech seed being so easy to block.
• C&C: Bulky Magic Guard users should probably be included with Magic Bounce, since both of these negate Ferrothorn's recovery.

hopefully it won't take too long to implement all these. Most of the mistakes were minor oversights and minor mechanical mistakes.

Just implement these, and then you can click this fancy hide tag:

Hide

QC 1/3
what were you expecting, I don't have a badge made for me like kl4ng and adrian
#salt

 

[Scyther NO Swiping]

Implemented and ready for the second QC Adrian Marin

 

[QueenOfHax]

Primordial Sea should never be used over Flash Fire. While it is true that it still makes Ferrothorn immune to fire against Mold Breaker users, it also makes it take more damage from water, suddenly turning many 3HKOs into 2HKOs and therefore invalidating one of its strongest assets. It also fails to protect it from the common WoW, which is certainly seen more often than Mold Breaker.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Quoting aesf for this because it's very well-explained.

Just because you've used one set that the pokemon tends to run doesn't mean you should do the analysis. Unfortunately we cannot split the job between 2 people, so it's all or nothing. Even if you write a brilliant first set, the next set may end up being raw enough to warrant a rejection.

Well thought out, but missing certain key elements on Set 2, sorry.

QC Rejected 1/2

 

[Klang]

QC Rejected 2/2

For the reason Adrian outlined.

 

[Pagoose]

I don't know if this is happening because of the rejected QCs, but on the flash fire set, put knock off slashed on the second slot instead of the third. Power Whip is needed to beat gyarados, while gyro ball isn't as needed. Also, as queenofhax said, flash fire outclasses primordial sea. Being immune to will-o-wisp is better than being able to wall the very rare mold breaker fire type, and it also means they don't know your ability, meaning you can get a free turn when they attack you.