Resource ADV Beginner's Lounge - Rules/FAQ, Resources, Question & Answer

vapicuno

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I was looking around for team ideas when I found this set: Curse Swampert. It leaves me both very interested and confused.

Code:
Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 96 SpA / 32 SpD / 40 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Earthquake
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Curse
I'm left with a few questions:
  1. Swampert's unboosted Speed is 149, which is a few points ahead of what is necessary to outrun Blissey (146). Why are 40 Speed EVs used instead of 32 Speed EVs, which also outruns Blissey?
  2. What is the purpose of Swampert's mixed bulk investment?
  3. Why is this Swampert running Curse and only one physical move?
  4. If the focus of the set is Curse, why not drop Ice Beam for more coverage or Rest for recovery?
1. Some will place the extra 4 EVs in speed, which makes 147. So you want at least 148. Then it's a cat and mouse game. So any number above 148 is safe.
2. Physical defense because Swampert is a physical wall, special defense to survive Zapdos' HP Grass and also to be a bit better when facing Suicune / Starmie / opposing Swampert.
3. Stop recover/rest mons like Blissey, Starmie, and Suicune from beating it.
4. The focus of the set is not Curse. It is dealing damage with Hydro Pump. Curse is for point 3.
 
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Hiro'

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Where are the original posts for gen 3 OU's community consensus?

The gen 3 ou description mentions the following:



Anyone know where any records of the consensus are?
You can probably find some things in the archives, especially in the competitive policy archives here. As for more recent times, you can look for threads like this one in the Policy Review subforum, or have a look at the current tiering changes thread where council members post updates from time to time. Nowadays most discussions take place on discord but at least you can follow official decisions through this thread.

Hope that helped!
 

vapicuno

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Where are the original posts for gen 3 OU's community consensus?

The gen 3 ou description mentions the following:



Anyone know where any records of the consensus are?
ADV OU has been in existence even before Smogon became the main competitive scene, so I doubt you'll be able to find information on things like why Celebi is allowed but Mew isn't. From these forums you'll mostly find some lower-impact changes like Moltres becoming OU from BL.
 
ADV OU has been in existence even before Smogon became the main competitive scene, so I doubt you'll be able to find information on things like why Celebi is allowed but Mew isn't. From these forums you'll mostly find some lower-impact changes like Moltres becoming OU from BL.
Ah that explains why all the posts seemed too new. Which site would they be on then?
 
Ah that explains why all the posts seemed too new. Which site would they be on then?
https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ruins-of-alph-archive.615/page-18 this has some posts going back to 2006-2007. You can also look in metagame development for some threads on like banning ingrain on smear (2011). If you dig through cryo storage, you might find some contemporary adv posts, but it really wasn’t documented well back then.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bl-shrink-proposal.3458891/ this also has some good history in it, as does this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/remind-me-why-wobbuffets-banned-again.4126/

One resource to check out would be gamefaqs for emerald or fire red/leaf green, when I first started in the late 2000s, there was old stuff there. Serebii forums might also have old stuff, I know Astamatitos used to post there way back in the day.
 
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Due to the influx of players due to certain content creators sparking interest in the format, I have compiled a list of mechanics that may trip up players who are accustomed to new gens that are different in ADV OU.
Feel free to reply if you are new with something that tripped you up that wasn't on the list and I can add it here.

Global mechanics:
Permanent Weather
- This is primarily only relevant for Tyranitar as it is the only legal weather setter in OU. Any weather that is set by an ability between generations 3-5 will be permanent until manually changed, whether that be by another ability, or a weather changing move such as Rain Dance. (Magneton, for example, has been used for this purpose in this tier.)

No Physical/Special Split
- Only typing determines the type of attack a move is. For example, Water type moves are always special, even moves like Crabhammer.
- Physical types are: Normal, Fighting, Poison, Ground, Flying, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Steel
- Special types are: Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Ice, Psychic, Dragon, Dark
- An easy way to remember these types are to consider all Eeveelution types as special + Dragon and the rest are physical

No team preview
- Pokemon are not revealed until they are sent out during battle. This means that you are encouraged to guess a team based on the revealed structure, as for example, a team of 5 revealed without a single rock resist implies that Swampert may be the last pokemon.

Much smaller item pool
- While having significantly better choices than GSC did, with more than just leftovers and Miracle Berry(Lum), ADV still pales in item selection compared to future gens, even Generation 4
- The mainly viable items are as follows, in no particular order:
  • Choice Band
  • Leftovers
  • Pinch Boost berries(Salac, Liechi, Starf, etc.)
  • Lum/Chesto Berry
  • Type Boosting Items (Magnet, Mystic Water, BlackGlasses, etc.)
  • White Herb (Extremely niche, however still technically viable/useful for Overheat)
Burn and Paralysis differences
- Burn does 1/8th damage every turn as opposed to the 1/16th it does in modern generations
- Paralysis quarters (1/4) a Pokemon's speed as opposed to halving it in modern generations

Critical Hit differences
- In Generation 3, Critical Hits have a chance of 1/16 of happening, and multiply the damage by 2x, while also ignoring stat drops on your side and stat boosts on the opposing side. This was changed in Generation 7 to 1/32 chance and 1.5x damage.
Steel Types resist Ghost and Dark types
- Steel types lost these resistances in Generation 6



End of Turn mechanics
The way turns end is unique in generation 3. This will by no means be a comprehensive overview of how these mechanics work, that is for you to figure out on your own, I will be covering the major points that will be relevant for you.
Passive/Self Inflicted damage KO:
- If a Pokemon dies to self inflicted or passive damage, the turn immediately ends and end of turn effects begin after the new Pokemon switches in. This is relevant for moves such as Explosion, moves with recoil such as Double Edge, and if you're up against a Sharpedo for whatever reason, Rough Skin damage, and confusion damage.
- If both Trainers choose to switch on the same turn, if the first switch to occur triggers a KO, the second switch will be cancelled.
Effects Order
- The order of effects can be found here: https://pastebin.com/HbcXtCN7 Do note that in cases where there are overlapping effects(i.e. both Pokemon have Leftovers), the faster Pokemon will resolve first.



Move/Pokemon/Ability Specific mechanics:
Sleep Talk Bug
- In Gen 3, Sleep Talk was bugged so that if you switched out after using it, it would effectively reset your sleep turns.
~ Example: You are a Suicune who used Rest and now have used Sleep Talk. If you:
  • Switch: You will have to sleep for 2 turns once you switch back in again, instead of the expected 1 turn.
  • Get forced out by Roar the same turn: Same as above.
  • Stay in and use a non Sleep Talk move: You can switch with your sleep turns burnt and can expect to wake up next turn (Not recommended in most cases as turns are a valuable resource)
  • Stay in, use Sleep Talk, and then switch: You will have to burn 2 sleep turns once again.
~ This mechanic is not relevant if you choose to stay in, any combination of moves will allow you to wake up normally when staying in.
- If you were put to sleep by a means other than rest that has variable sleep time, switching out after using Sleep Talk will re-randomize how many sleep turns you will have to take between 1-4.

Blizzard + Hail
In Generation 3, Hail does not guarantee 100% accurate blizzards.

Explosion
- Explosion and Self Destruct in ADV halve the opposing Pokemon's defense, giving it effectively doubled BP (A banded Metagross Explosion can KO any non-Ghost Pokemon in the tier from full)
- This mechanic was nerfed in Generation 5 which is why the move is no longer seen.
- As mentioned above, Explosion is also used to end turns and regain momentum, as any Pokemon KO will immediately start the end of turn phase.
Knock Off
- In Generation 3, Knock Off is a 20 BP move that disables the opponent's item. It got buffed in Generation 6.
- Knocked Off items are rendered useless rather than removed, so in a niche case where a Pokemon running Thief gets Knocked Off, you cannot Thief a new item.
Rapid Spin
- In Generation 3, Rapid Spin is a 20 BP move that removes hazards from your side of the field, it was buffed in Generation 8.
- It is the only form of hazard removal, Defog did not exist until Generation 4, or remove your own hazards until Generation 6.
Hidden Power
- In Generation 3, Hidden Power is a move that varies based on your IVs. For competitive play, it is effectively a 70 BP move of any type you choose, except Normal, at the expense of a few of your IVs.
- As the base move is a Normal type move, and Normal is considered Physical in Generation 3, you cannot use Mirror Coat against Special typed Hidden Power. Conversely, Counter will always work against Hidden Power.
Thunder Wave/Volt Absorb
- In Generation 3, Volt Absorb specifically only gives an immunity to Electric type attacks only, and not status moves, similarly to how Flying types are not immune to Sand Attack. (Oddly enough, Ground types are still immune to Thunder Wave)
Toxic
- In Generation 3, Toxic can be learned by nearly every single Pokemon through TM. This was changed in Generation 9 when the distribution was massively reduced. There may be other moves with similar distribution changes due to future TMs/Tutors, or removed due to a lack of TMs/Tutors to teach it.
Misc. Move Differences
- Certain moves that are good in later Generations are bad in Generation 3 as they had not received buffs yet, so make sure you check the BP and effect of any move you think is good because of current generation. Notable moves include Future Sight and Outrage.
- Conversely, some moves that are rarely used in later Generations are common in Generation 3 due to lack of stronger moves available, such as Brick Break over the nonexistent Close Combat.
Truant
- If a Slaking comes in on the same turn another Pokemon died to passive damage, it ticks the turn counter for Truant and causes it to Loaf Around the next turn.
- For example, if your opponent is Leech Seeded and is below 12% HP when you send your Slaking out, it will be KO'd by Leech Seed and cause Truant to trigger the next turn.
Sturdy
- Sturdy does not act like a Focus Sash and only protects against moves such as Guillotine and Sheer Cold, which are banned in OU anyways. Sorry Forretress fans.


If there is more that should be added or anything that should be fixed, feel free to reply to me or message me on Discord (dkkoba) and I will update this as soon as I can.

Some more exact examples can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mechanics-differences-between-generations.3668073/post-8553246
crossposting this here since it actually is way more relevant here
 
How good or bad are shadow pokemon competitively? Are they better than their normal variants or no?
They are very bad competitively, seeing as they are unusable outside of modded formats.

As for theorymonning, the shadow moves are what would be the OP part as they consistently do super effective damage to all non-shadow pokemon and would be too OP in most cases if paired with decent stats.
 
Why are Assist and Soundproof banned? My guess for Soundproof is Roar since Whirlwind isn't common, and Assist sounds like some gimmick shenanigans like that one VGC year where Purrloin and Liepard abused Prankster + Lagging Tail + Dive, but I'm not sure.
 

vapicuno

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Why are Assist and Soundproof banned? My guess for Soundproof is Roar since Whirlwind isn't common, and Assist sounds like some gimmick shenanigans like that one VGC year where Purrloin and Liepard abused Prankster + Lagging Tail + Dive, but I'm not sure.
Assist was a method by which Smeargle could bypass the Ingrain + Baton Pass clause by borrowing Baton Pass from other team members. Soundproof is Roar, which therefore bans Mr. Mime (which, although can be Whirlwinded out, can still taunt the phazer), and also bans Exploud as a recipient.
 
Guess that makes sense. Does make me wonder if maybe sacrificing cartridge compatibility for a Baton Pass clause that auto-removes all stat changes would be an interesting mod to test in a tournament or something.

Reminds me of an old online cartidge league I was in around the Gen 6 era that allowed Baton Pass without stat changes (we called it Dry Passing, and we did it on the honor system) but we had to ban it once people started intentionally switching in on Swagger to skirt around the rules and pass to a physical attacker.
 
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Guess that makes sense. Does make me wonder if maybe sacrificing cartridge compatibility for a Baton Pass clause that auto-removes all stat changes would be an interesting mod to test in a tournament or something.

Reminds me of an old online cartidge league I was in around the Gen 6 era that allowed Baton Pass without stat changes (we called it Dry Passing, and we did it on the honor system) but we had to ban it once people started intentionally switching in on Swagger to skirt around the rules and pass to a physical attacker.
there were restrictions added somewhat recently that you can only combine BP with 1 boosting move, ability, or item. So Ninjask cannot run Swords Dance and Baton Pass together, you cannot run a salac berry, calm mind, and BP, etc.
 
looking for team breakdowns

i.e. this is the wincons of the team, team struggles against xyz, high priority get spikes up, weak to suicune so u probably have to boom on it, this EV spread is chosen to live a dugtrio EQ, etc

so many team pastes are just a barebones list of six mons and i have no clue how to pilot it because i am bad

:(
 

vapicuno

你的价值比自己想象中的所有还要低。我却早已解脱,享受幸福
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
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looking for team breakdowns

i.e. this is the wincons of the team, team struggles against xyz, high priority get spikes up, weak to suicune so u probably have to boom on it, this EV spread is chosen to live a dugtrio EQ, etc

so many team pastes are just a barebones list of six mons and i have no clue how to pilot it because i am bad

:(
The information you're looking for is scattered in a bunch of different places. You can find them on some youtube channels in the OP, copypasted here
I also have a youtube channel explaining some more uncommon ideas here. Jimothy Cool has a channel here for interesting ADV ideas and another channel here for his ongoing ADV revival tour.

I encourage you to join an ADV discord community to engage in discussions as well.
 
Thank you!

Been watching lots of ADV Revival, and reading your Data-Driven Approach thread (very informative). Looking for something less broad in scope, i.e. zooming in on a single team and seeing several games of it in action so I can try to copy the masters. I'll check BKC's channel out, and your links.
 
For a Mixed Jirachi with 32 Spe EVs to outrun Tyranitar or 56 to outrun Claydol, 136 Atk / 252 SpA leaves 88 or 64 EVs for bulk. Does it make sense to run a nature with neutral Def to take Earthquakes from them?
 
Is rest gyarados+steelix still a viable defensive core, or has steelix been phased out in favor of an actually good pokemon? I've been trying to use it but it feels like it just switches into stuff and then doesn't actually do anything beyond that lol
 

vapicuno

你的价值比自己想象中的所有还要低。我却早已解脱,享受幸福
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Is rest gyarados+steelix still a viable defensive core, or has steelix been phased out in favor of an actually good pokemon? I've been trying to use it but it feels like it just switches into stuff and then doesn't actually do anything beyond that lol
The most recent successful Steelix explorations that I remember were by ABR, who used Tar skarm defcel twavemie steelix aero. It was either in the previous Callous Invitational or SPL, I don't recall. The idea though is that Steelix sits on a lot of stuff and if Skarmory is paralyzed, Steelix is faster and can Roar it out. It also offers additional protection vs electrics with mie on the team. These are two big advantages with using lix compared to meta on that 6.
 

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