Lower Tiers ADV Little Cup

[Aerow]

NEW ADV LC THREAD HERE https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-lc.3722418/

-

.

-

..

..

....

..

....

Welcome to the official ADV Little Cup thread!

Viability Rankings - Good Cores - Roles Compendium - Good Leads - Sample Teams - Speedtiers - ADV LC Ubers​

Hello, and welcome to ADV Little Cup!

ADV LC is a fast-paced, fun and diverse metagame, and it's also quite different compared to other Little Cup generations.

If you are an ORAS LC player, you should feel at home in ADV LC; however, there are new (or old!) things to learn. The first is the smaller variety of items. There are three types of items that are commonly used in ADV LC: Sitrus Berry (in ADV, it restores 30 HP), Type-boosting items such as Soft Sand or Silk Scarf, pinch berries such as Salac Berry, and of course, Choice Band. Items such as Eviolite, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Status Orbs and Life Orb do not exist in ADV LC. Thief is the Dark-type item stealing move of choice in ADV LC, and is similarly to Knock Off in ORAS LC very common. Another big difference is the special/physical split; all moves of a given type are either physical or special. For example, Tri Attack is physical because all Normal-type moves are physical. An easy way to remember them is that there is an Eeveelution for every special type except Dragon. Here is a list of which types are physical and special:

Special: Fire, Water, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Dragon, Dark.
Physical: Normal, Fighting, Poison, Ground, Flying, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Steel.

ADV LC also shares some similarities with its older brothers, ADV OU and ADV UU. Trapping is an extremely viable strategy - helped further by the fact that there is no team preview - and pinch berries are very common despite the fact that Sitrus Berry basically restores all of a mon's health.

If you are not a LC player, things may seem strange at first; the EVs will probably be one thing that might be difficult to get used to, because not every EV point gives a stat point, so there will often be leftover EVs. The easiest way to find the necessary amount of EVs is to simply play around with the sliders when you're first getting started.

In this thread our goal is tomake ADV LC even more popular, while also discussing this great metagame; links to the Viability Rankings, Roles Compendium, Good Cores, Speedtiers and Sample Teams can be found at the top of this post. We want to make it as easy as possible for newer players to experience ADV LC.

You can challenge people to ADV LC on the main server, by using the [Gen 3 OU] challenge option, but don't forget to make your Pokemon level 5!

--------------------

Current council:

Aerow
Corporal Levi
Crystalites
Dustflier
Fiend
fran17
GrilledClawitzer
ggggd
Heysup
Krubby
mad0ka
slurmz
sparktrain

When having suspect tests, the ADV LC council will vote on whether to ban or not. Suspect tests will happen if the community or the council feels as if something are unhealthy for the metagame. Council members are picked through interest and competency in the metagame, as well as maturity. If you would like to be a part of the council, show your interest in the metagame by being active in this thread and on Pokémon Showdown, where we often have a group chat (do /join groupchat-aerow-advlc to check if its up). Keep in mind that the council is rotating, meaning we will keep the council fresh with active players. This is to ensure all council members are up to date with the current ADV LC metagame. At this point, we don't have limits as to how many members should be on the council, and we would like as many ADV LC players to be able to express their opinions as reasonably possible.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM myself (Aerow), or any of the council members listed above. Have fun!

 

[Corporal Levi]

Banner that Aerow refused to put in the OP :(

Hide

General Rules: All Pokémon must be level 5. All Pokémon must be able to evolve, and must be first stage evolutions.


Clauses:

• Species Clause
• Sleep Clause
• Evasion Clause
• OHKO Clause

Current Banlist:

• all Pokémon that are neither first stage evolutions nor can still evolve
• Chansey
• Meditite
• Omanyte
• Scyther
• Wynaut
• Zigzagoon
• Dragon Rage
• Sonic Boom
• Agility + Baton Pass

Explanations

Chansey:
Due to its enormous HP and Special Defense stats, especially by LC standards, and compounded by the lack of Choice Specs or Psyshock, Chansey's existence rendered Special attackers entirely unviable. In addition, it was comparable to physically defensive Porygon in terms of bulk, because of the combination of huge HP and the ability to reach 11 Defense.. Chansey also had an enormous supportive movepool which meant that it was able to take good advantage of its near-invincibility.

Meditite:
Despite its low bulk and average speed, it boasted great Attack. STAB High Jump Kick, which, even at its low 85 base power, allowed Meditite to OHKO the vast majority of the Eviolite-less metagame. Not only that, but gen 3 Meditite had perfect neutral coverage in two moves (Shadow Ball and High Jump Kick), because Ghost-type moves are physical, giving it ample moveslots to abuse an excellent supportive movepool that was often shafted aside in gen 6. Although it wasn't entirely unbeatable, with decent checks in Koffing and Wailmer existing, the low number of checks it did have, coupled with the utility it provided on top of its offensive prowess, meant that Meditite proved too good for the metagame.

Omanyte:
In gen 3 there is no Eviolite, and the many prominent Special walls of XY LC, such as Munchlax and Lickitung, are ineligable or do not exist. As such, after a Rain Dance, Omanyte was able to outspeed and OHKO nearly every relevant Pokemon with Hydro Pump. In addition to its great offensive capabilities, Omanyte's good physical bulk gave it numerous opportunities to set up. Because Ice Beam was very powerful, even without STAB, teams were required to run multiple Specially Defensive Water-types (or outright gimmicks such as Specially Defensive Bulbasaur) just to prevent a clean Omanyte sweep.

Scyther:
Scyther had the single highest base Attack stat in the entire metagame. More importantly, because of the lack of Choice Scarf (or Sneasel) in gen 3 LC, Scyther was the absolute fastest Pokemon on the field on turn 1. When coupled with bulk higher than Porygon's, which allowed Scyther to set up a Swords Dance with ease, games were decided by Scyther speed ties more often than not; the lack of Technician was a non-factor in the face of Scyther's ridiculous base stats.

Wynaut:
Between Sitrus Berry instantly healing Wynaut back to full health and Knock Off's distribution being limited to gimmicky unviable Pokemon outside of Abra, Wynaut was all but guaranteed at least one KO, and the vast majority of the time, two. Almost no Pokemon at all was able to OHKO Wynaut, meaning to prevent Wynaut from doing its job nearly every single time, ridiculous measures had to be taken, such as running multiple Dark-types and Choice Band Gastly on a single team.

Zigzagoon:
At +6, Zigzagoon was nearly impossible to stop. In addition to Sitrus Berry healing Zigzagoon to full health after Belly Drum, both Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fighting were physical, meaning not even bulky Ghost, Steel and Rock-types were enough. Although Zigzagoon initially appeared to be difficult to set up, plenty of moves were unable to OHKO it, and dual screens and memento support were and still are commonplace, meaning pulling off a Belly Drum wasn't too difficult. Even extremely powerful priority users such as Choice Band Doduo were often only able to deal slightly over half of Zigzagoon's health (keeping in mind Extremespeed and Fake Out were only +1 priority in gen 3), so Explosion Gastly was absolutely mandated on every single competitively viable team.

Dragon Rage:
Because ADV LC lacks Focus Sash and Fairy-types as well as having different Sturdy mechanics, fast Dragon Rage users were guaranteed to OHKO all opposing Pokemon without fail.

Sonic Boom:
Although not as extreme of a case as Dragon Rage, Sonicboom allowed Pokemon to deal ridiculous damage without investing in offensive stats,and often OHKOed frailer Pokemon after a small amount of prior damage.

Agility + Baton Pass:
As the only way to consistently pass speed to a teammate, this specific combination turns otherwise manageable hard hitters into ridiculously effective sweepers. In a metagame without Eviolite, the number of checks to, for example, a boosted Clamperl with a set of Surf/Ice Beam/HP Grass, is limited to a few otherwise unviable or at least not very good sets, such as specially defensive variants of Lotad and Surskit. Ledyba has a great deal of special bulk, and Spinarak lacks double weaknesses to take advantage of, so it isn't difficult for them to find the opportunity to set up. Key recipients include Clamperl, Cubone, and Drowzee, but there are other effective choices, although they are generally somewhat less broken. This decent variety makes it difficult to predict what will be coming in, especially with the lack of team preview, so trying to OHKO a recipient as soon as it enters the field is often not feasible.

Feel free to discuss these bans; however, keep these discussions civil. In addition, for the time being, please DO NOT suggest the retesting of Chansey, Dragon Rage, Scyther, Wynaut, or Zigzagoon. We plan on maintaining a fairly balanced metagame, and it is probably pretty safe to say that those five in particular are absolutely broken to the reasonable and competitively minded player.

 

[Dhaora]

ADV LC Speed Tiers​

Made by Dhaora, Aerow, Corporal Levi, and Obvious Power

Credit to Hawkstar for the base text.

Introduction

As Pokemon in Little Cup are at level 5, there is a narrower range of Speed stats present than in Smogon’s other metagames. Below, you will find each Speed stat that ADV LC Pokemon reach based on usage and viability, along with how many EVs the Pokemon needs to acquire that stat.

A Pokemon's name is bolded at the speed it is most likely to be running when it switches in. For example, while Horsea can reach 16 speed fully invested, the most common speed is 13. The 19 and 20 Speed tiers are bolded, because everything there will definitely want to be hitting that number. Not all Pokemon are bolded, because they have more than one equally popular or viable set. Only Pokemon who are at D rank and above in the viability rankings are placed on this list, and will be constantly updated to accomodate changes in the rankings.


Tier 1 (21 - 38 Spe)

Speed Stat / Pokemon / Base Speed / Nature / EVs / Boost

38 / Ponyta / 90 / + Speed / 196 / +2
... / Wingull / 85 / + Speed / 236 / +2
34 / Doduo / 75 / Neutral / 236 / +2
30 / Horsea / 60 / Neutral / 196 / +2
... / Kabuto / 55 / Neutral / 236 / +2
24 / Dratini / 50 / Neutral / 196 / +2
26 / Horsea / 60 / Neutral / 36 / +2
22 / Oddish / 30 / Neutral / 116 / +2
… / Bellsprout, Porygon / 40 / Neutral / 36 / +2
21 / Larvitar / 41 / + Speed / 188 / +1

Analysis: Tier 1 is reserved for Pokemon that reach the highest stats of practical importance in Generation 3 Little Cup. Pontya at +2 is the highest included because anything beyond that occurs due to repeated Speed Boosts or uses of boosting moves and is ultimately trivial. The Pokemon in this tier all need to be boosted to reach these stats, be it through an ability or through a move. These Pokemon are, for the most part, very frail, and typically handled through strong priority attacks.

Tier 2 (16 - 20 Spe)

20 / Voltorb / 100 / + Speed / 196 / None
… /Diglett, Elekid / 95 / + Speed / 236 / None
19 / Abra, Meowth, Poliwag, Ponyta / 90 / + Speed / 196 / None
… / Staryu, Taillow, Wingull / 85 / + Speed / 236 / None
… / Magby/ 83 / + Speed / 252 / None
18 / Gastly / 80 / + Speed / 196 / None
… /Doduo/ 75 / + Speed / 236 / None
17 / Mankey, Onix, Tentacool / 70 / + Speed / 196 / None
… / Chinchou / 67 / + Speed / 220 / None
… / Doduo/ 75 / Neutral / 236 / None
… / Carvanha, Houndour, Remoraid, Smoochum / 65 / + Speed / 236 / None
16 / Chinchou / 67 / Neutral / 220 / None
… / Growlithe, Horsea, Wailmer / 60 / + Speed / 196 / None
… / Kabuto, Ledyba / 55 / + Speed / 236 / None

Analysis: This tier represents the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the metagame and what other Pokemon hit in their attempts to outspeed them. The "19" Speed stat is considered just about legendary in Little Cup, and many titans of the metagame have been banned or are very strong partly due to it. However, there are three Pokemon that can outspeed all of these unboosted as they hit 20 Speed, and all three happen to be very prominent in gen 3 LC.

Tier 3 (11 - 15 Spe)

15 / Dratini / 50 / + Speed / 196 / None
… / Magnemite / 45 / + Speed / 236 / None
… / Squirtle / 43 / + Speed / 252 / None
14 / Remoraid / 65 / Neutral / 76 / None
… / Drowzee / 42 / + Speed / 180 / None
… / Larvitar / 41 / + Speed / 188 / None
… / Bellsprout, Exeggcute, Porygon / 40 / + Speed / 196 / None
… / Cacnea, Cubone, Koffing, Machop / 35 / + Speed / 236 / None
13 / Horsea, Wailmer / 60 / Neutral / 36 / None
... / Larvitar / 41 / Neutral / 188 / None
… / Clamperl / 32 / + Speed / 180 / None
… / Oddish, Snubbull / 30 / + Speed / 196 / None
… / Duskull, Rhyhorn / 25 / + Speed / 236 / None
12 / Horsea / 60 / Neutral / 0 / None
... / Ledyba, Kabuto / 55 / Neutral / 0 / None
... / Dratini / 50 / Neutral / 36 / None
… / Clamperl / 32 / Neutral / 180 / None
… / Pineco / 15 / + Speed / 236 / None
11 / Bellsprout / 40 / Neutral / 36 / None
… / Machop / 35 / Neutral / 76 / None
… / Oddish / 30 / Neutral / 116 / None
… / Trapinch / 10 / + Speed / 196 / None

Analysis: This is the tier in which the vast majority of unboosted Pokemon reside. In this tier, it is often easy for Pokemon to get lost among the crowd and not have any real desire to run maximum Speed. Chloropyhll and Swift Swim users reside toward the bottom of this tier, allowing them to outspeed every unboosted Pokemon once in weather.

Tier 4 (7 - 11 Spe)


10 / Porygon / 40 / Neutral / 0 / None
… / Cubone, Koffing / 35 / Neutral / 0 / None
… / Snubbull / 30 / Neutral / 36 / None
9 / Duskull / 25 / Neutral / 0 / None
… / Pineco / 15 / Neutral / 76 / None
8 / Slowpoke / 15 / Neutral / 0 / None
7 / Trapinch / 10 / Neutral / 0 / None

Analysis: Here is where the slowest Pokemon in ADV LC have their benchmarks. All of these Pokemon would rather invest in their defenses and offenses than their pitiful Speed stats, except when EVs are left over. The Pokemon here are generally the bulkiest in the tier, and can usually hit hard as well as a trade-off for being so slow.

----------------------------------

All the bolded Speeds are based off of personal experience and writing, and are not set in stone. If you see something you'd like to change, please post in the thread and if others agree, I'll update the list. Likewise, if you don't see a Pokemon at a Speed it should be at, then point that out as well.

 

[Aerow]

Welcome to the ADV Little Cup Sample Teams! If you're new to ADV LC, we have a lot of great teams here that will make it easier to learn the metagame!​

​

Sample team compilation:

Ceremonials by slurmz

NO LIGHT, NO LIGHT (Elekid) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Static
Level: 5
EVs: 92 Atk / 160 SpA / 236 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Focus Punch

ONLY FOR A NIGHT (Oddish) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 76 Def / 160 SpA / 40 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sleep Powder

WHAT WATER GIVES (Wailmer) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 200 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Spout
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump

SEVEN DEVILS (Ponyta) (F) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Run Away / Flash Fire
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Agility

SPECTRUM (Porygon) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 156 Def / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Recycle

SHAKE IT OUT (Trapinch) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 36 Atk / 156 Def / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Quick Attack

Description of Ceremonials by slurmz

Madvillainy by slurmz

money folder (Meowth) (M) @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Hypnosis
- Shadow Ball

meat grinder (Diglett) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Thief
- Substitute

rhinestone cowboy (Doduo) (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Endure
- Flail
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Grass]

do not fire! (Ponyta) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast
- Agility
- Solar Beam

fancy clown (Gastly) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Explosion

sickfit (Wailmer) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Water Spout
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Description of Madvillainy by slurmz

Heavenly Body Magic by slurmz

GRAND CHARIOT (Ponyta) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Run Away
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Agility
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast

ALTAIRIS (Poliwag) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 40 Def / 40 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Return
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Hypnosis

SEMA (Porygon) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
Happiness: 0
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Agility
- Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Frustration

ERZA (Ledyba) (F) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 40 Def / 36 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Giga Drain
- Endure

TENTAI MAHŌ (Trapinch) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 36 Atk / 156 Def / 240 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Quick Attack

METEOR (Wailmer) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Self-Destruct
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Description of Heavenly Body Magic by slurmz

Spikes Rain by fran17

Ponyta
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 240 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Fire Blast
- Double Kick
- Flamethrower

Baltoy @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 156 Def / 36 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin

Cacnea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 36 Def / 76 SpA / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Encore
- Destiny Bond

Chinchou @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 52 Def / 232 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Rain Dance
- Surf

Horsea @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Diglett @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Double-Edge

Description of fran17's Spikes Rain team by him

Dragon Dance Party by Aerow

Pineco @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin
- Body Slam

Bagon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Substitute

Larvitar @ Berry Juice
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 244 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

Staryu @ Berry Juice
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder Wave
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Duskull @ Berry Juice
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thief
- Shadow Ball
- Memento
- Will-O-Wisp

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 156 SpA / 156 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Recycle

Description of Dragon Dance Party by Aerow

.cri offense by Crystalites

Pineco @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 200 Def / 160 SpD
Impish Nature
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion

Lotad @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Def / 116 SpA / 196 SpD / 116 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Surf
- Rain Dance
- Thief

Kabuto @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 76 SpA / 156 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave

Abra @ Berry Juice
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Substitute
- Thief

Doduo @ Choice Band
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Drill Peck
- Quick Attack
- Return

Description of .cri by Crystalites

 

[prem]

guys remember the moderators are asked before a thread is started so if you have a complaint for a threda being made pls bitch to me macle blara or cork, not in the thread. this is just for discussion and thats all i wanna see :)


overall stop being butthurt pls

 

[Krubby]

6 months ago I wanted to try LC in an older meta and chose Gen 3, made a team for it, and tried getting a thread going but was shot down SO HARD. But now it's a thing and I am very happy. I highly urge you to join this meta and if you ever see me, feel free to challenge me because I will happily play you. Also, here's the first team made for this. Feel free to use it!!

Hide

Pineco @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
- Earthquake

Porygon @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 200 Def / 236 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt

Magnemite @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
Level: 5
EVs: 200 Def / 72 SpA / 236 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Mankey @ Choice Band
Ability: Vital Spirit
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Cross Chop
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Ghost]

Chinchou @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 52 Def / 228 SpA / 228 SpD
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave

Diglett @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 28 HP / 244 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rock Slide
- Sleep Talk

Also, Lotad is a god.

 

[boo836]

Mix DD horse and CB Tyrogue master race

4real tho tyrogue at C because it hits stuff like larvitar that threaten teams. Works well on spikestacking teams

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Mix DD horse and CB Tyrogue master race

4real tho tyrogue at C because it hits stuff like larvitar that threaten teams. Works well on spikestacking teams

Tyrogue has base 35 stats all the way across the board. Why not use something like Machop or Mankey?

 

[gali]

Tyrogue has base 35 stats all the way across the board. Why not use something like Machop or Mankey?

Neither Machop or Mankey get Mach Punch.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Neither Machop or Mankey get Mach Punch.

I don't think Mach Punch from 35 base Attack is anywhere close to making something usable when better Pokemon of that type exist for several reasons.

 

[boo836]

Mankey can't check Larvitar and Machop needs to run max defence to hope of beating it. I'd rather not use suboptimal spreads when I can just KO larvitar with mach punch. If you wanted to suggest a check, then suggest Wailmer ffs

 

[boo836]

Remember: Eviolite and choice scarf don't exist in this meta. Attackers lose their bulk and teams lose most of their revenge killers. All people have are CB, type boosting items, stat berries, and Sitrus which functions as a better BJ

 

[Aerow]

First of all:

Choice Band Tyrogue Mach Punch vs. Larvitar: 17-20 (80.9 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Choice Band Tyrogue with max Attack fails to OHKO Larvitar, and even with 2 layers of spikes it's still only a 68.8% chance for a OHKO.

I'm therefore going to say I agree with Briyella here; Tyrogue is nowhere near C rank, and I would much rather use Machop or Mankey as a Fighting-type. As already mentioned, Tyrogue has absolutely awful stats. The only thing Tyrogue has over them is Rapid Spin and being able to revengekill Larvitar with Spikes support, which is not exactly huge niches. Taking in mind Machop and Mankey are in D and C rank respectively, I can't see Tyrogue any higher than D-rank. C rank is a huge stretch.

 

[Brosb4Ho-ohs]

This seems pretty cool, as they are a bunch of undiscovered viable strategies that can be used.

 

[Krubby]

Time for some nominations.

Baltoy D --> C
Levi said he thought it was okay to nom to go up two places. ANYWAY, Baltoy is the only pokemon in the tier to resist rock and ground. Therefore, it makes an extremely valuable check to both Larvitar and Diglett. Even at +2, Larvitar fails to KO it, and Band Diglett's HP Bug fails to OHKO. Baltoy is also capable of getting a OHKO on each with Ice Beam and HP Water/Grass. Just these traits alone are enough to make it D rank worthy. However, Baltoy has an entirely separate niche that it can also pull off: being a spinner immune to spikes. It's great bulk means it can come in on spikes often and not suffer from the layers. Psychic is a strong STAB it can use and, if you consider Ice Beam sufficient for Larvitar, HP Dark could be used for the spinblockers. To top it all off, Baltoy gets explosion, meaning once its job is done it can take out a threat. The downsides to Baltoy are that its special bulk is lacking meaning its 4 weaknesses to special attacks really hurt it. It's also slow meaning it often can't pull off an explosion and its Special Attack isn't great. However, the positive traits of it I think are definitely enough to outweigh its weaknesses to give it multiple solid niches.

I was gonna do Magnemite but then I got lazy.

And Baltoy totes outclasses Mr. Tyrogue

 

[Corporal Levi]

We originally had this but I guess Aerow forgot to add it to the current post, so he should probably do so now
"Please do not suggest changes of more than two tiers (eg D to C is two tiers, C- to C+ is two tiers, C+ to B is two tiers, etc). If something was originally in a position, it was there for a reason; if it really deserves to be more than two tiers from where it was, we can move it up step by step. Keep in mind that E rank is simply referring to unranked mons, so for this, it can count as D rank."

Anyways, I'm going to support Baltoy's nomination. It's a bulky Rapid Spinner with an immunity to Spikes, which is already a veritable niche. However, on top of that, Baltoy possesses a set of useful resistances, and more importantly, the offensive movepool to allow it to hold its own even if Rapid Spin support isn't necessary. As Krubby mentioned, Baltoy's unique set of resistances coupled with its ability to hit key threats hard with Earthquake and one of Ice Beam or Psychic allow it to check prominent threats in the current metagame. However, I sometimes find that when I use Baltoy, I just Rapid Spin away Spikes and then blow up, which Baltoy will usually get the chance to use due to its bulk; Explosion is a very useful move in gen 3 and 4 LC, almost always OHKOing anything that doesn't possess a resistance or immunity to it. This is an especially good move on Baltoy because Gastly won't appreciate taking a STAB Psychic (which helps Baltoy pull off Rapid Spin more easily as well), thus discouraging it from switching in, although Duskull is more troublesome.

I would also like to nominate Trapinch for C+ or maybe B-, although I strongly disagree with it being any higher than that at the moment. Due to its awful speed and below average bulk, it gets positively crushed by most of the metagame; however, it also beats a select few important threats, namely Diglett and the two big Electric-types. All three of these Pokemon are extremely powerful, and as such, something to take them out is quite useful; what makes Trapinch stand out is its ability to always eliminate these Pokemon from the field without fail (outside of crit or freeze hax), then and there. Even though Trapinch doesn't have a whole lot of positive match-ups, if it does find one, it prevents counterplay and guarantees the removal of said Pokemon, which makes it a great partner to have for certain sweepers such as Sunny Day Ponyta and Belly Drum Poliwag, who really appreciate the riddance of 95 Speed Pokemon.

 

[Aerow]

Yeah, should be fixed now Levi.

I also agree with you and Krubby; Baltoy is a really, really cool Pokemon in ADV LC, having a great movepool and typing/ability. Its ability to take out Elekid and Diglett with Earthquake and Ice Beam respectively are really cool, while also being able to set up screens, use Rapid Spin and (almost) guaranteed OHKOing a opponent thanks to Explosion. Baltoy is also able to deal with another threat in Larvitar, as Krubby mentioned. I therefore strongly support Baltoy for C.

When it comes to Trapinch, I also agree. Elekid, Diglett, and Voltorb are all huge threats, and Trapinch can support a team heavily by easily removing them, while also being able to switch-in unless Spikes are on the field. However, after removing certain threats, I feel Trapinch often ends up being a death fodder, and doesn't hit too hard since it wants to invest in bulk to survive Elekid and Diglett's Ice Punch and Earthquake respectively. Both C+ and B- is fine for now.

I still want some more opinions on both Baltoy and Trapinch though before moving them up.

 

[OP]

I just wanted to show a new thing I've been using; it's mostly just theorymonning as I haven't gotten to use it in practice much.

Gastly @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Def / 116 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Thief
- Psychic
- Taunt/Explosion

I like to use it as a lead because of its ability to taunt Rain Team leads and Pineco, and I have pretty solid answers to Wailmer and Elekid, but it definitely functions outside of leading. This Gastly makes a great partner for Dragon Dance Larvitar. It's EV'd specifically to survive Duskull's Shadow Ball and Koffing can't really touch it. In return Gastly takes their Sitrus Berry and can soften them up enough for Larvitar to clean up later. Gastly has a harder time crippling other Larvitar checks such as Baltoy or Exeggcute, which is why I use HP Bug, but it does require prior damage on Baltoy to KO at +1. Overall this Gastly set is capable of crippling many pokemon on the opposing team and specifically beats Larvitar checks.

Here's an example of what it's capable of doing: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3oubeta-159441295

 

[boo836]

First of all:

Choice Band Tyrogue Mach Punch vs. Larvitar: 17-20 (80.9 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Choice Band Tyrogue with max Attack fails to OHKO Larvitar, and even with 2 layers of spikes it's still only a 68.8% chance for a OHKO.

I'm therefore going to say I agree with Briyella here; Tyrogue is nowhere near C rank, and I would much rather use Machop or Mankey as a Fighting-type. As already mentioned, Tyrogue has absolutely awful stats. The only thing Tyrogue has over them is Rapid Spin and being able to revengekill Larvitar with Spikes support, which is not exactly huge niches. Taking in mind Machop and Mankey are in D and C rank respectively, I can't see Tyrogue any higher than D-rank. C rank is a huge stretch.

Neither manker or machop do the same things as Tyrogue. Checking Larvitar is its main purpose, which both fail to do. I

 

[gali]

Azurill for C. This thing is stupidly powerful. 24 attack is really good by XY LC standards, but is ridiculous in a metagame without Eviolite. With Spikes support, there is very little that doesn't get steamrolled by one of Double-Edge, Iron Tail, or HP Ghost ( with the exception of Steel-types, but all 3 of them get destroyed by Diglett.). The one downside is that it's slow and not that bulky. Basically, it's a crazy strong wallbreaker that is basically impossible to switch into and should be C.

Also, Encore + Destiny Bond Cacnea is super good.

 

[Dhaora]

Eh for all my own hyping of Trapinch, I don't think its all that great, I think C+ at the most. It dies to most things after being weakend by ele/dig, sure they die, but then it just dies straight after so its just 1 for 1. It has a niche, but it doesn't have all the much else to back it up.

I've seen krubby's Lotad too, and thats p cool, but again it does the same sort of thing, just takes out Wailmer, and then it's killed by aerial ace/hp bug diglett or doduo or probably koffing or smth. A core of Lotad/Trap might be kinda cool to counter the S rankers, and would be pretty damn anti-meta, so I can see them working well, but they just need lots of support to do anything above their own niche. So yeah, C+ for Trap, and I guess C or maaayybe C+ for Lotad right now. It might be worth Krubby posting his pastebin of calcs for Lotad, he's done a lot of work on it.

 

[Aerow]

I will not move Tyrogue up from E-rank unless it's discovered that it has any other niches. When it comes to Azurill, it's indeed very powerful, but it's movepool isn't that great, and it's also slow and frail af. D or C- is fine, but I want to see more opinions or atleast a replay showing Azurill do work before moving it up :)

 

[OP]

Larvitar for B+ or even lower

Looking through B through S rank, Larvitar can realistically only set up on Pineco and Ponyta, because of so many pokemon just simply running HP Grass. If it does manage to set up, it's difficult to stop, but it's checks aren't that uncommon and it has a tough time bypassing them. If you don't set up, you're easily revenged by so many common pokemon, including all three S-ranks. After builing a team around a Larvitar sweep, I still find it lackluster and unable to do so.

 

[Slashari]

Larvitar for B+ or even lower

Looking through B through S rank, Larvitar can realistically only set up on Pineco and Ponyta, because of so many pokemon just simply running HP Grass. If it does manage to set up, it's difficult to stop, but it's checks aren't that uncommon and it has a tough time bypassing them. If you don't set up, you're easily revenged by so many common pokemon, including all three S-ranks. After builing a team around a Larvitar sweep, I still find it lackluster and unable to do so.

Yeah, I agree with this. On paper, it looks pretty nice, but it loses to most common threats and is kind of hard to get set up.

 

[Dhaora]

Agreed, the time when Doduo didn't run hp grass was the best time for Larv, but that time is long gone.

Edit: Skitty E -> D

Has a niche in being the only mon to get Baton Pass and Calm Mind, so that's something. Works p well with ledyba + clamperl to get +2 spe, and with +1 spa clamperl just ohkos everything (even Wailmer!). Skitty also gets defense curl if you're into that kinda thing.