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OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter vapicuno
- Start date
What was the team ?
Ive also met too many Smeargle teams these days...
so the team I encountered was like encore salac spore spikes smeargle (probably BP too but I didn't see because I killed it before it could pass) and then like, offensive sub endeavor pert, sub zapdos, aerodactyl, and I can't remember the 5th and 6th, might have been a blissey in there. Needless to say it really annoyed me because like, I don't play this generation to encounter matchup fishing, I come here to play good games of pokemon. It did hurt to lose my top 25 ladder position, but I didn't care about that overmuch, I just wanted good games and I found like 2 out of the 9 I played
This is a Plea to the ADV community: STOP TRYING TO INNOVATE DUGTRIO. Beat Up was the last innovation, everything else is making your Dugtrio worse into everything except Blissey in an attempt to kill Blissey slightly faster than normal
Bulky Leichi Dugtrio is BAD. Bulky Dugtrio in general is BAD. Adamant Dugtrio is BAD. If you can't revenge kill a max speed zapdos in a pinch your Dugtrio is awful. If Starmie outspeeds your Dugtrio it is even worse.
On a related note; I don't care what BKC says: if your Aerodactyl is slower than Dugtrio your Aerodactyl is bad
Bulky Leichi Dugtrio is BAD. Bulky Dugtrio in general is BAD. Adamant Dugtrio is BAD. If you can't revenge kill a max speed zapdos in a pinch your Dugtrio is awful. If Starmie outspeeds your Dugtrio it is even worse.
On a related note; I don't care what BKC says: if your Aerodactyl is slower than Dugtrio your Aerodactyl is bad
Sometimes I think about how all the johto starters are just unequivocally worse versions of a different starter and it keeps me up at night. How do feraligatr and swampert have the same bst but swampert still wins in almost every category it's not right (rhetorical question). Typhlosion is just charizard if he was kinda bad. Meganium is bad venusaur. This keeps me up at night.
I tried so desperately to make feraligatr do something and the conclusion was that he has no potential to cook cause he has almost all the same moves as swampert. Same with typhlosion and meganium. My goats disgraced.
Anyways
What are the most heat leads not in the standard leads (as in ttar, zapdos, salamence, metagross, suicune, skarm, whomever else). I've been big on lead regirock lately. It's like a more disposable metagross. That's not a super fair comment but I say it with love. Twave+rock slide flinch is decently reliable, it eats any physical attack (even cb metagross meteor mash), and it can just explode whenever. Pretty cool lead, I'd reccomend giving it a whirl.
I tried so desperately to make feraligatr do something and the conclusion was that he has no potential to cook cause he has almost all the same moves as swampert. Same with typhlosion and meganium. My goats disgraced.
Anyways
What are the most heat leads not in the standard leads (as in ttar, zapdos, salamence, metagross, suicune, skarm, whomever else). I've been big on lead regirock lately. It's like a more disposable metagross. That's not a super fair comment but I say it with love. Twave+rock slide flinch is decently reliable, it eats any physical attack (even cb metagross meteor mash), and it can just explode whenever. Pretty cool lead, I'd reccomend giving it a whirl.
To have tested it, Venusaur is a surprinsingly decent lead.
I would argue that being forced to splode on metagross or getting no value isn't exactly eating the mashes but that's just me.
anyway lead rhydon has some sauce if you literally never encounter a lead with HP grass or a water move
Lead Aero is my favourite lead, specifically when you are using the choice band set. Most mons don't want to take a rock slide and thus they switch into their rock resist early, which is massive for playing around it as if its a steel type you can trap it with magneton or just deal heavy damage with your teammates.
I'm not going to try and talk about whether or not this Pokémon "needs more innovation" because quite frankly I suck at this game competitively and lack the skill and experience most of you guys have, but I still want to take a moment to talk about Dugtrio and why I think it's... honestly not that good.
I can't be the only one who's tried building with Dugtrio on different styles only to find this thing surprisingly inconsistent, right? When I was first trying out ADV OU, my inexperienced self was curious about why Arena Trap Dugtrio wasn't banned when it was from future generations of OU. What was the problem?, I asked myself. Shouldn't Dugtrio massively benefit from ADV's new mechanics, such as the increased number of held items, removal of maxed out EVs in every stat, and the represent addition of Abilities? Well... yeah, those are all factors as to why Dugtrio is viable in ADV OU, but the more I've played, the more I'd like to think I've figured this Pokémon out.
The main issue I'm having with Dugtrio in the teambuilder is that, as good as Dugtrio is at what it does, it's extremely one-dimensional, but more importantly, it's very exploitable. I view this as a natural balancing act of sorts- yes, you can select this trapping specialist in the team builder and use Dugtrio's talents, usually with but somewhat rarely without its beloved Choice Band, to attempt to trap and eliminate specific threats to the rest of your team structure. That's great and all, but the problem kicks in immediately after that. That is to say... now what's Dugtrio supposed to do? My Choice Band Dugtrio just trapped revenge killed my opponent's Tyranitar, Metagross, whatever it is with Earthquake, but oh? What's this? I'm locked into Earthquake now and just gave my opponent a free turn to do whatever they want with their Flying-Type they had in the back? Oh great, now my opponent's Salamence just got a free Dragon Dance because I incorrectly guessed it was a Mixed set. Or God forbid you give AgiliPass Zapdos a free turn to set up for virtually no cost. That's not going to have repercussions at all!
The other thing I want to mention about trappers in general is that sometimes, the viability of the Pokémon isn't dependent on the trapper itself but rather the Pokémon they're supporting. An argument can definitely be made that Dugtrio is more balanced in ADV OU in part because it's supporting a less power-crept array of offensive and defensive Pokémon. Something like Latias might be broken in ADV but not in DPP in its current state, but you bet this power-creeping Specs Latias becomes way scarier when Dugtrio's around to help trap targets like Tyranitar and DPP OU's beloved Jirachi. These Ground-weak, Earthquake-vulnerable examples are just that, of course- examples, but rest assured I keep coming across things like this over and over and over again the more I start looking for them. As a result of these shortcomings, I find myself using and supporting Dugtrio usage less than ever before in my time playing ADV OU. I'll still try to use this Pokémon on occasion as a support for a hardcore balance or stall core, but I just have to know if I'm the only one who's constantly finding myself sold short by Dugtrio's hypothetical appeal more than its actual game-to-game performance.
I can't be the only one who's tried building with Dugtrio on different styles only to find this thing surprisingly inconsistent, right? When I was first trying out ADV OU, my inexperienced self was curious about why Arena Trap Dugtrio wasn't banned when it was from future generations of OU. What was the problem?, I asked myself. Shouldn't Dugtrio massively benefit from ADV's new mechanics, such as the increased number of held items, removal of maxed out EVs in every stat, and the represent addition of Abilities? Well... yeah, those are all factors as to why Dugtrio is viable in ADV OU, but the more I've played, the more I'd like to think I've figured this Pokémon out.
The main issue I'm having with Dugtrio in the teambuilder is that, as good as Dugtrio is at what it does, it's extremely one-dimensional, but more importantly, it's very exploitable. I view this as a natural balancing act of sorts- yes, you can select this trapping specialist in the team builder and use Dugtrio's talents, usually with but somewhat rarely without its beloved Choice Band, to attempt to trap and eliminate specific threats to the rest of your team structure. That's great and all, but the problem kicks in immediately after that. That is to say... now what's Dugtrio supposed to do? My Choice Band Dugtrio just trapped revenge killed my opponent's Tyranitar, Metagross, whatever it is with Earthquake, but oh? What's this? I'm locked into Earthquake now and just gave my opponent a free turn to do whatever they want with their Flying-Type they had in the back? Oh great, now my opponent's Salamence just got a free Dragon Dance because I incorrectly guessed it was a Mixed set. Or God forbid you give AgiliPass Zapdos a free turn to set up for virtually no cost. That's not going to have repercussions at all!
The other thing I want to mention about trappers in general is that sometimes, the viability of the Pokémon isn't dependent on the trapper itself but rather the Pokémon they're supporting. An argument can definitely be made that Dugtrio is more balanced in ADV OU in part because it's supporting a less power-crept array of offensive and defensive Pokémon. Something like Latias might be broken in ADV but not in DPP in its current state, but you bet this power-creeping Specs Latias becomes way scarier when Dugtrio's around to help trap targets like Tyranitar and DPP OU's beloved Jirachi. These Ground-weak, Earthquake-vulnerable examples are just that, of course- examples, but rest assured I keep coming across things like this over and over and over again the more I start looking for them. As a result of these shortcomings, I find myself using and supporting Dugtrio usage less than ever before in my time playing ADV OU. I'll still try to use this Pokémon on occasion as a support for a hardcore balance or stall core, but I just have to know if I'm the only one who's constantly finding myself sold short by Dugtrio's hypothetical appeal more than its actual game-to-game performance.
I think some people are missing the point of what Dugtrio tries to achieve. The whole point of Dugtrio is that it enables other Pokemon. Adamant Dugtrio isn’t bad, it's designed to kill slow bulky special walls. You don’t need speed investment to kill Blissey or Snorlax. Dugtrio with Hidden Power Bug has a much easier time killing a Celebi with Adamant then with Jolly.
If your team needs something to revenge kill +1 Dragon Dance Tyranitar then Jolly is better or needs to kill Starmie. But if your team has a way to deal with these threats then there is no need to run Jolly. Sense Dugtrio plays a support role it’s sets reflect what its team needs.
I'm not going to try and talk about whether or not this Pokémon "needs more innovation" because quite frankly I suck at this game competitively and lack the skill and experience most of you guys have, but I still want to take a moment to talk about Dugtrio and why I think it's... honestly not that good.
I can't be the only one who's tried building with Dugtrio on different styles only to find this thing surprisingly inconsistent, right? When I was first trying out ADV OU, my inexperienced self was curious about why Arena Trap Dugtrio wasn't banned when it was from future generations of OU. What was the problem?, I asked myself. Shouldn't Dugtrio massively benefit from ADV's new mechanics, such as the increased number of held items, removal of maxed out EVs in every stat, and the represent addition of Abilities? Well... yeah, those are all factors as to why Dugtrio is viable in ADV OU, but the more I've played, the more I'd like to think I've figured this Pokémon out.
The main issue I'm having with Dugtrio in the teambuilder is that, as good as Dugtrio is at what it does, it's extremely one-dimensional, but more importantly, it's very exploitable. I view this as a natural balancing act of sorts- yes, you can select this trapping specialist in the team builder and use Dugtrio's talents, usually with but somewhat rarely without its beloved Choice Band, to attempt to trap and eliminate specific threats to the rest of your team structure. That's great and all, but the problem kicks in immediately after that. That is to say... now what's Dugtrio supposed to do? My Choice Band Dugtrio just trapped revenge killed my opponent's Tyranitar, Metagross, whatever it is with Earthquake, but oh? What's this? I'm locked into Earthquake now and just gave my opponent a free turn to do whatever they want with their Flying-Type they had in the back? Oh great, now my opponent's Salamence just got a free Dragon Dance because I incorrectly guessed it was a Mixed set. Or God forbid you give AgiliPass Zapdos a free turn to set up for virtually no cost. That's not going to have repercussions at all!
The other thing I want to mention about trappers in general is that sometimes, the viability of the Pokémon isn't dependent on the trapper itself but rather the Pokémon they're supporting. An argument can definitely be made that Dugtrio is more balanced in ADV OU in part because it's supporting a less power-crept array of offensive and defensive Pokémon. Something like Latias might be broken in ADV but not in DPP in its current state, but you bet this power-creeping Specs Latias becomes way scarier when Dugtrio's around to help trap targets like Tyranitar and DPP OU's beloved Jirachi. These Ground-weak, Earthquake-vulnerable examples are just that, of course- examples, but rest assured I keep coming across things like this over and over and over again the more I start looking for them. As a result of these shortcomings, I find myself using and supporting Dugtrio usage less than ever before in my time playing ADV OU. I'll still try to use this Pokémon on occasion as a support for a hardcore balance or stall core, but I just have to know if I'm the only one who's constantly finding myself sold short by Dugtrio's hypothetical appeal more than its actual game-to-game performance.
Dugtrio doesn’t need to fit on every team, it's not Zapdos or Swampert. Dugtrio being one dimensional l is the entire point of it; it kills specific threats that the rest of the team can’t deal with.
technically feraligator is a better water resist
but yeah all the johto starters are worse versions of the other regions
they are also the only set with all single typings, which is funny ( and probably why the trio is the worst)
I think they were supposed to be dual typed as well
like feraligator was supposed to be water/ dark, and i think typhlosion was to be fire/ground as well (volcano)
Snorlax is like mid at best and folds to CB Metagross and Blissey takes like 60% from jolly dug so it's not even unreasonable chip, that's like 2 zapdos thunderbolts in sand. Blissey also folds to CB Metagross
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T R A N S I T I O N
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(how to make that look good)
I've started running psychic over thunderbolt on offensive starmie so I always come out ahead in skarmgar 50/50s. No longer will I be in a bad position because my opponent bluffed a Gengar so well that I didn't spin, I will now be in a bad position in those games anyway but I won't have spikes on my side of the field. I'm definitely gonna miss thunderbolt in games where it doesn't come up but also I hate relying on Hydro Pump to kill Gengars
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(does it count as double posting if I'm waiting multiple days in between each post)
I built a new team because the one I was using before kept losing and I gotta say, agiligross is fuckin NASTY. Like jesus christ it should be illegal for metagross to outspeed a jolteon lmfao. I miss the immediate power of banded mashes but being the fastest thing in the room is almost as good as killing skarmory from full HP with a normal type move. I also miss rock slide but mash still generally hits the slide targets pretty hard with a few exceptions.
Later:
Ninjask actually needs to be banned. I know we've been over this but I'm so fucking sick of seeing matchup fish ninjask teams on ladder. They're easy to beat yes but of course they always have the most garbage set on a good pokemon you've ever seen in the back. (I've said it before and I'll say it again, any Dugtrio spread that isn't 252 Atk/252+ Spe fucking blows. Specing your dugtrio to kill blissey makes it worse into literally everything else in the tier.) Matchup fishing is a thing I play this generation of OU to get away from and apparently it's not even good at that. I love gen 3 OU so fucking much but between the 2 walls of the tier having toxic and ninjask existing it makes me so fucking mad. A lot of this is a me issue but FUCK ninjask please kill this insect
I built a new team because the one I was using before kept losing and I gotta say, agiligross is fuckin NASTY. Like jesus christ it should be illegal for metagross to outspeed a jolteon lmfao. I miss the immediate power of banded mashes but being the fastest thing in the room is almost as good as killing skarmory from full HP with a normal type move. I also miss rock slide but mash still generally hits the slide targets pretty hard with a few exceptions.
Later:
Ninjask actually needs to be banned. I know we've been over this but I'm so fucking sick of seeing matchup fish ninjask teams on ladder. They're easy to beat yes but of course they always have the most garbage set on a good pokemon you've ever seen in the back. (I've said it before and I'll say it again, any Dugtrio spread that isn't 252 Atk/252+ Spe fucking blows. Specing your dugtrio to kill blissey makes it worse into literally everything else in the tier.) Matchup fishing is a thing I play this generation of OU to get away from and apparently it's not even good at that. I love gen 3 OU so fucking much but between the 2 walls of the tier having toxic and ninjask existing it makes me so fucking mad. A lot of this is a me issue but FUCK ninjask please kill this insect
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Feraligatr isn't a bulky water, it's a physical sweeper. It plays a completely different role than Swampert. It's faster than Swampert and can set up, so if you want to play to Feraligatr's strengths, you could run something like Swords Dance/Earthquake/Rock Slide/HP Bug. That way, it's a worse Gyarados instead.
Yes
Historically, Feraligatr’s actually been more of a mixed attacker in Gens 2 and 3. I (usually) don’t like to compare Feraligatr to the other Water-Types since its gameplan is pretty unique- Torrent boosted Water attacks and Ice Beam on the special side, while attempting to hit special walls with stuff like SubPunch. Feraligatr’s pure Water typing lends it well to being bulky enough to survive single attacks that may inflict even more damage on some of Feraligatr’s closest competitors, making it a risky, albeit capable candidate for Salac Berry sets. Unfortunately, the removal of maxed out EVs across all stats and that same pure Water typing is Feraligatr’s downfall, as it’s generally too difficult to get any sort of defensive utility amidst all of ADV OU’s plethora of indirect damage. Even though it’s base Speed is slower, offensive Swampert can usually do most of what you’d want from a Feraligatr team slot because of its lack of an Electric weakness and immunity to Sandstorm damage, among other factors.
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I watched the most recent BKC video and it annoys me immensely that we could have had the speedpassing issue dealt with like a year ago but arbitrary tiering policy leaves no room for nuance and forces the people who actually play the tier into an all or nothing decision, as well as leaving other issues like sand attack in the tier. There should be zero issue with the proposed ninjask ban + accuracy moves into evasion clause idea but modern tiering policy applying to old generations 1:1 is just a braindead decision.
Every single team I build in this meta is dogshit and it manifests the moment I think it feels good to play. Can't have a cleric because every move on the standard utility Blissey is important, can't have a second phazer because apparently Hydro Pump on Swampert comes up every game, can't have Psychic on Starmie because I need both Thunderbolt and Ice Beam literally every game, can't have Destiny Bond on Gengar because Thunder Punch comes up every game, the only pokemon on my teams that isn't suffering from these issues constantly are Choice Band Metagross (because, guess what, Agiligross wants both Rock Slide and Explosion) and Zapdos. The only reason Zapdos doesn't suffer from this, in my opinion, is because the 4th move on Zapdos doesn't actually matter. Any of Agility, T Wave, Roar, Drill Peck, some other move I'm probably forgetting, fits there and you don't compromise Zapdos's role at all. Genuinely how do people teambuild and make these compromises because every time I do it the thing I'm losing out on comes up like 6 games in a row.
BKC is the goat, him and jimothy have been so helpful trying to get into adv ou
I still need to finish the BKC vid on smogon teiring/banning rules
I mainly use smogon to get teams to use on the ladder lol so i had no idea the rule/banning process was so complicated lmao.
it reminds of the tera discussion when some people wanted it banned, or tera type being public on team preview, or wtv
also i def think zapdos suffers from the same thing
it has so many good sets
what are three moves that are so obv lol?
On zapdos:
Thunderbolt HP Grass and Baton Pass
if you run HP Ice on Zapdos you are asking to be reamed by Swampert and I think that's objectively really bad
On Jimothy Cool:
I like his content but his Glalie video has done more damage to the players of this tier than any tiering policy ever could.
On policy:
I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that speedpass as a whole should be banned, but that doesn't make the tiering policy correctly applied in this way. I'm also aware that this conclusion might be in part reached by salt so I'm wary of saying that I've reached it 100%, but also modern tiering policy being set in stone for pre gen 6 gens instead of just being a guideline is still really dumb.
I was given this team last night (https://pokepast.es/94a7061a27ff482b) and using it I've come to the conclusion that Raikou is worse in basically every way than Offensive Starmie. Yeah they do different things however using Offensive Starmie doesn't fuck you over when Suicune inevetibly dies or gets hax'd because it's the only physical wall on this team that can actually do something to Tyranitar. Starmie does this by being able to take exactly one hit from a +1 Salamence and kill it back. It's also just insane behind a sub and you can just pass CM boosts to it and it becomes better than everything.
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Howdy! I have a bit of an odd question, are the stock builds supplied by the builder something that i can reliably anticipate to find nowadays? Context: I have this specialized lead that i enjoy using, and i account for max speed base 100 and can usually either one or two shot five of the six most common leads, although more often than i anticipated will i speed tie and be in hot water.
what is this specialized lead you speak of? I want to see the heat. Also, in my experience, base 100s are either max speed or bulky as fuck so it's a bit of a coin flip. lead salamence specifically will almost always be max speed and lead zapdos can go either way
Naive max spd max spatk Typhlosion with NMI. Hp ice, overheat tpunch and brick break Always kills non bulk mence, two shots non rest zap (hp ice then overheat) and gets all tar into dug range
admittedly works better as a revenge mon than a lead...
Do you mean the smogon analyses that you get by googling "Salamence RS smogon" for example? They're mostly up to date.