-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
An Answer For Everything - [Air's C&C Work]
- Thread starter Air
- Start date
On Amoonguss chance Hidden Power Fire/Clear Smog/Synthesis > Toxic
With Sludge Bomb already there and the 30% chance to Poison, Toxic becomes a bit of a waste on that slot, usually you fire of Sludge Bombs until you get the toxic. HP Fire so you aren't completely walled by Pokemon such as Ferrothron, Clear Smog if you believe a Pokemon is setting up on you and you need to quickly stop it or Synthesis to get back your health. I'm going for Synthesis as your last choice due to Amoonguss having Regenerator anyways.
On Heatran change Lava Plume > Fire Blast
Move Calculations Fire Blast in blue, Lava Plume in red
I think you should change it mostly because the 100% accuracy is always preferred, not to mention you're still going to be doing 2HKO's and OHKO's the Steel and Grass threats that you find in OU anyways, judging on the calculations. The fact that Lava Plume has the 30% chance to burn as well and cripple Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Excadrill, Terrakion or any other Attacker that thinks they can come in and not get burned because you're using Fire Blast instead of Lava Plume. When they notice you are using the Fire Blast they are going to be much more relaxed in bringing these threats in knowing they have less chance of being burned and they can that the hits anyways.
On Scizor chance Defog > Knock Off, 252 Def
Your team lacks something to take away hazards and with Kyurem-B with no access to Roost on it, it has no way of recovering of the damage, not to mention it also has Substitute so this means it is going to continue to wither down. I can understand knocking off the opponents item is always nice but Kyurem-B honestly needs some support from those Stealth Rocks, I didn't pick Roost because it is nice to keep Scizor at a high enough HP to the point of where he can come in again and Defog again if he is needed. Not Bullet Punch because.... well... it is a Scizor and priority Bullet Punch is always nice with Technician. Swords Dance can be used to finish of opponents with the combination of Bullet Punch towards the near end.
You shouldn't need to be worrying about Greninja dishing out Hydro Pumps when you have Azumarill on your team which can take any hits Greninja is willing to dish out towards you, then hit back Greninja had with a Play Rough or force the opponent to switch out. I believe that a defensive bulk would be suited in the situation.
On Kyurem-B chance Roost > Fusion Bolt
Not really coverage(Fusion Bolt), fair enough it hits Water Types such as Azumarill/Keldeo/Gyarados but those Pokemon can easily be stopped by the support on your team from Scizor/Slowbro. As explained previously your health is going to wither down when you come into contact with Pokemon you can't touch and you are forced to switch out. This is where Roost plays of, you roost of your damage so it enables you to come in later on in the battle. I have picked Fusion Bolt over Earth Power mostly because of doing hard damage to Heatran and if not then your only switch to Slowbro is your option, I would say Azumarill but you don't want to risk the burn happening.
With Sludge Bomb already there and the 30% chance to Poison, Toxic becomes a bit of a waste on that slot, usually you fire of Sludge Bombs until you get the toxic. HP Fire so you aren't completely walled by Pokemon such as Ferrothron, Clear Smog if you believe a Pokemon is setting up on you and you need to quickly stop it or Synthesis to get back your health. I'm going for Synthesis as your last choice due to Amoonguss having Regenerator anyways.
On Heatran change Lava Plume > Fire Blast
Move Calculations Fire Blast in blue, Lava Plume in red
220+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 270-320 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 518-612 (185.6 - 219.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 378-446 (135.4 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 518-612 (155 - 183.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 378-446 (113.1 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 110-132 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- 41.9% chance to 3HKO
220+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yes, for this calculation there is a lower chance to 3HKO but wouldn't you rather make sure your hitting all of them and actually have the chance of burn rather than missing. I'm pretty sure Lava Plume is still the suited choice in this.
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 518-612 (185.6 - 219.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 378-446 (135.4 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 518-612 (155 - 183.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 378-446 (113.1 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
220+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 110-132 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- 41.9% chance to 3HKO
220+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yes, for this calculation there is a lower chance to 3HKO but wouldn't you rather make sure your hitting all of them and actually have the chance of burn rather than missing. I'm pretty sure Lava Plume is still the suited choice in this.
I think you should change it mostly because the 100% accuracy is always preferred, not to mention you're still going to be doing 2HKO's and OHKO's the Steel and Grass threats that you find in OU anyways, judging on the calculations. The fact that Lava Plume has the 30% chance to burn as well and cripple Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Excadrill, Terrakion or any other Attacker that thinks they can come in and not get burned because you're using Fire Blast instead of Lava Plume. When they notice you are using the Fire Blast they are going to be much more relaxed in bringing these threats in knowing they have less chance of being burned and they can that the hits anyways.
On Scizor chance Defog > Knock Off, 252 Def
Your team lacks something to take away hazards and with Kyurem-B with no access to Roost on it, it has no way of recovering of the damage, not to mention it also has Substitute so this means it is going to continue to wither down. I can understand knocking off the opponents item is always nice but Kyurem-B honestly needs some support from those Stealth Rocks, I didn't pick Roost because it is nice to keep Scizor at a high enough HP to the point of where he can come in again and Defog again if he is needed. Not Bullet Punch because.... well... it is a Scizor and priority Bullet Punch is always nice with Technician. Swords Dance can be used to finish of opponents with the combination of Bullet Punch towards the near end.
You shouldn't need to be worrying about Greninja dishing out Hydro Pumps when you have Azumarill on your team which can take any hits Greninja is willing to dish out towards you, then hit back Greninja had with a Play Rough or force the opponent to switch out. I believe that a defensive bulk would be suited in the situation.
On Kyurem-B chance Roost > Fusion Bolt
Not really coverage(Fusion Bolt), fair enough it hits Water Types such as Azumarill/Keldeo/Gyarados but those Pokemon can easily be stopped by the support on your team from Scizor/Slowbro. As explained previously your health is going to wither down when you come into contact with Pokemon you can't touch and you are forced to switch out. This is where Roost plays of, you roost of your damage so it enables you to come in later on in the battle. I have picked Fusion Bolt over Earth Power mostly because of doing hard damage to Heatran and if not then your only switch to Slowbro is your option, I would say Azumarill but you don't want to risk the burn happening.
Moves over Toxic: Yea, that did seem like a wasted move slot, definitely. But, would it be Alright to replace Sludge Bomb with Clear Smog, then keep Toxic?
Lava Plume > Fire Blast: Thanks, definitely going to change it.
Defog on Scizor: Knock off isn't entirely for getting items off, it's more for coverage where bullet punch doesn't OHKO
I belive the most efficient EV spread for mega scizor is 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SpD, Adamant, so I'm going to use that instead.
Roost on Cube: Without Fusion Bolt, I'm unable to Take out manaphy, a huge threat to my team. I'm thinking of replacing Cube with something else that can beat both Mega Venasaur and Manaphy, would Lati@s fit well in the team?
On Heatran, 24- Atk seems a bit strange. Since Stone Edge seems to be a pivotal part of this set (i.e., beating Y-zard), why would you want to cut its power? I could understand not wanting to cut into speed; as for phys. def., you may be able to run Mild as your nature. You probably won't be living too may EQ's anyway, and Slowbro can take Heatran's other weaknesses.
As for Cube, you mention bringing in Lati@s in its place so you can beat Manaphy. I think this is a good idea. With either Lati, you can run DM as your main STAB, while carrying T-bolt for Manaphy and Psyshock for M-Venu. You probably could get away without using Defog, as nothing on your team is weak to SR (if you make this change) or hindered by Sticky Web too much. Here's the set I propose:
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Psyshock
-Thunderbolt
-Roost
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 283-338 (77.7 - 92.8%)
As it turns out, DM actually does more damage to Manaphy than T-bolt:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 274-325 (80.3 - 95.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 255-302 (74.7 - 88.5%)
But you can still run it for stuff like Gyarados. You don't lose much by giving up Ice coverage, because most things that are weak to Ice are hit harder by DM anyway. As for Roost, it's there to help keep him healthy, seeing as how he takes care of your Venusaur and Manaphy issues. Plus it's nice to have him around anyway.
As for Cube, you mention bringing in Lati@s in its place so you can beat Manaphy. I think this is a good idea. With either Lati, you can run DM as your main STAB, while carrying T-bolt for Manaphy and Psyshock for M-Venu. You probably could get away without using Defog, as nothing on your team is weak to SR (if you make this change) or hindered by Sticky Web too much. Here's the set I propose:
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Psyshock
-Thunderbolt
-Roost
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 283-338 (77.7 - 92.8%)
As it turns out, DM actually does more damage to Manaphy than T-bolt:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 274-325 (80.3 - 95.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 255-302 (74.7 - 88.5%)
But you can still run it for stuff like Gyarados. You don't lose much by giving up Ice coverage, because most things that are weak to Ice are hit harder by DM anyway. As for Roost, it's there to help keep him healthy, seeing as how he takes care of your Venusaur and Manaphy issues. Plus it's nice to have him around anyway.
STAB Poison is always nice on Fairies such as Sylveon running around the tier, some of them tend to run Heal Bell as well so Toxic won't be an issue :C Giga Drain just isn't enough.
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 114-134 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 23-27 (6.1 - 7.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 42-51 (10.6 - 12.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 102-122 (25.8 - 30.9%) -- 7.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still a 4HKO but within that time you could of potentially got a poison of anyways, also to do damage to Pokemon that coming in as well and hopefully get a poison rather than just hitting Toxic by it self.
The only coverage I'm seeing this Latios with the rare HP Fire and being able to hit Aegislash, could you provide some more examples and I could probably look into it more
I was thinking that also but in the end the Manaphy is still going to survive with a little HP and be able to OHKO with an Ice Beam once you switch in, seems a bit of a waste in the end to know that it is going to survive anyways, probably to the point where Scizor can Bullet Punch it however.
Yeah, I thought latios would be a good poke over Cube, and indeed it is. I'll do some testing and change it if it works out well.
The 24- is so I don't lose physical bulk. It gets the job done and makes sure I don't take too much damage from CharX d-claw and Pinsirs Return
Could Stun Spore be viable over toxic, to cripple sweepers?
Knock Off can stay, now that Kyurem-B has been replaced with Latios.
With Steath Rocks, Latios OHKOs 100% off the time. Even then, Azumarills Aqua jet can finish it off.
(Sorry it took a while to reply, I was writing up latios for the OP)
Sigh...75% accuracy. It could throw the opponent of but honestly, wouldn't you rather just have Clear Smog to erase that stat changes, the Pokemon you're up against could be Slow already and may have Bulk Up, yes I know hardly anyone runs Bulk Up Conkeldurr anymore, could be a Curse Pokemon or something else, maybe a slow but bulky Calm Mind Clefable.
Yea with Clefable being a threat clear smog seams to be the best option.
Thanks for all your help!
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 152-180 (50.3 - 59.6%)
Unboosted, Manaphy's not doing a damn thing. Of course, if it does get a TG, it spells trouble for Latios unless Manaphy has Life Orb or has some prior damage.
(edit: okay, a 2HKO doesn't really qualify as not doing a damn thing, but it's survivable thanks to Roost)
Even with Mild, neither of those 2HKO's, because Heatran resists both:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0- Def Heatran: 101-119 (26.2 - 30.9%)
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 0- Def Heatran: 131-154 (34 - 40%)
And you have teammates for EQ, Waterfall, and Fighting moves.
Last edited:
Still, it's more efficient IMO for any physical move thrown at heatran, especially Mawiles Sucker Punch.
I looked at this, thought WTF WHY IS HE RUNNING LIGHT METAL SCIZOR???!?!?!?one1??!one? Then I realized that Mega-Scizor is Technician.
Valuable information right here.
Slowbro handles Lando with Scald, Gliscor Fails to 2HKO scizor, so it can set up on it.
Surf KOes them regardless, but you are right in that Surf is redundant with Azumarill. Also it gets Ice Beam.
However, I would like to say that this team is well built. The only thing I would suggest is Latios' Thunderbolt > Surf as the things Surf hit are already covered by Azu and Slowbro. Thunderbolt allows you to hit Manaphy, Charizard-Y, and Mega Pinsir hard while not lowering your Special Attack. Regardless, this is a good team that I would like to play against sometime. Well done :]
Thanks for the pick up! Draco Meteor Outdamages thunderbolt on Manaphy, I would think it does on the others, but as you said, it's still a good way to kill them without lowering Latios's special attack.
Hey! Did you ever consider using Facade on Azrumarill instead of Superpower? Take a look at these calcs
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Healthy)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 182-215 (45 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Burned)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Burned)
Facade allows you hit extremely hard when burned and keeps Zumarill from becoming dead weight!
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Healthy)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 182-215 (45 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Burned)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Burned)
Facade allows you hit extremely hard when burned and keeps Zumarill from becoming dead weight!
I know facade is very useful for burns, but it's hard to pass up nailing Ferro on the switch.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Amoonguss
This is already a pretty good set. However, I do encourage you to look into using Synthesis instead of Sludge Bomb. Regenerator and Black Sludge do really help recover your health back, but only do so effectively by switching out, and with most teams having SR, it may not be worth it. HP Fire may also be a better option, to cover Steel Types, and even though Base 85 Special Attack is a little lackluster, it can do considerable damage. Also, you should invest around 50 EVs into Special Attack, coming from Special Defense.
Slowbro
I unfortunately can't find any reason whatsoever to use Thunder Wave on Slowbro. I mean, for starters, you're already slow as hell, and the paralyze chance isn't incredibly large anyways. Calm Mind is so much better for an option. You already have a high defense stat, and Calm Mind helps wall out your Special Defense Stat, raising your Special Attack too, turning Slowbro into a complete tank.
Heatran
Heatran looks pretty good. Nothing's wrong with this set.
Scizor
The normal spread for the Bulky Swords Dance is 252 HP/44 Atk/216 SpD. Change that EV Spread to this one, please. Also, Knock Off may want to be replaced by Bug Bite, a STAB Technician Boosted move that is terrifying after a Swords Dance. You don't have to change it, as I do understand the utility of Knock Off.
Azumarill
This set is seen everywhere, and it is pretty good. Don't change anything with this set.
Latios
You may want to put Defog somewhere in that set. Latios is a killer Defog Setter and you should never use him without it. Replace Thunderbolt with that.
Other Options
You could use Deoxys-S instead of Heatran for some extra utility. Heatran does do an awesome job offensively, but Deoxys-S can set up the game's fastest Taunt, Magic Coat, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Knock Off, and so much crazy shit (Superpower tho) and still does have a little bit of Offensive Presence. It would be a smart idea, but you don't have to.
This is already a pretty good set. However, I do encourage you to look into using Synthesis instead of Sludge Bomb. Regenerator and Black Sludge do really help recover your health back, but only do so effectively by switching out, and with most teams having SR, it may not be worth it. HP Fire may also be a better option, to cover Steel Types, and even though Base 85 Special Attack is a little lackluster, it can do considerable damage. Also, you should invest around 50 EVs into Special Attack, coming from Special Defense.
Slowbro
I unfortunately can't find any reason whatsoever to use Thunder Wave on Slowbro. I mean, for starters, you're already slow as hell, and the paralyze chance isn't incredibly large anyways. Calm Mind is so much better for an option. You already have a high defense stat, and Calm Mind helps wall out your Special Defense Stat, raising your Special Attack too, turning Slowbro into a complete tank.
Heatran
Heatran looks pretty good. Nothing's wrong with this set.
Scizor
The normal spread for the Bulky Swords Dance is 252 HP/44 Atk/216 SpD. Change that EV Spread to this one, please. Also, Knock Off may want to be replaced by Bug Bite, a STAB Technician Boosted move that is terrifying after a Swords Dance. You don't have to change it, as I do understand the utility of Knock Off.
Azumarill
This set is seen everywhere, and it is pretty good. Don't change anything with this set.
Latios
You may want to put Defog somewhere in that set. Latios is a killer Defog Setter and you should never use him without it. Replace Thunderbolt with that.
Other Options
You could use Deoxys-S instead of Heatran for some extra utility. Heatran does do an awesome job offensively, but Deoxys-S can set up the game's fastest Taunt, Magic Coat, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Knock Off, and so much crazy shit (Superpower tho) and still does have a little bit of Offensive Presence. It would be a smart idea, but you don't have to.
Nice team, i like the regenerator core and the mushroom.
A fun fact:
4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 186-218 (44.9 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 182-216 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO
I see more defensive megasaur instead of special defensive. U can think to replace psychic for psyshock. For a wall is not a crime.
Another thing: scald and t-wave. 2 status moves (even if one has 30%) are not so synergic.
I suggest u to run fire blast. Ferrothorn can switch, get a scald, leech seed. Or bisharp/ aegislash/scizor to pursuit u. Hoping for the burn is not the best way to play. U aren't so aggressive and fast, try to punish the "free switch" is a good way to get advantage and win. Even if t-wave can ben usefull for deo-s.
The rest of the team is already fixed, this is the only thing i can say.
A fun fact:
4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 186-218 (44.9 - 52.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 182-216 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO
I see more defensive megasaur instead of special defensive. U can think to replace psychic for psyshock. For a wall is not a crime.
Another thing: scald and t-wave. 2 status moves (even if one has 30%) are not so synergic.
I suggest u to run fire blast. Ferrothorn can switch, get a scald, leech seed. Or bisharp/ aegislash/scizor to pursuit u. Hoping for the burn is not the best way to play. U aren't so aggressive and fast, try to punish the "free switch" is a good way to get advantage and win. Even if t-wave can ben usefull for deo-s.
The rest of the team is already fixed, this is the only thing i can say.
Amoongus - Sludge Bomb is so I can have some offencive presence. As you said, 85 spa can do some considerable damage. On a wall, there's no need to invest in attack power, it's more efficent to invest in defence.
Slowbro - T-Wave is to cripple sweepers. Not for slowbro, but for the rest off the team to Outspeed it.
Scizor - The Evs allow scizor to avoid the 2HKO from Greninjas Hydro Pump, since azumarill can't switch in many times agaist greninja.
Latios - Team isn't weak to steath rock = t-bolt is the better option.
defininty going to change psyshock to psychic now.
Thunder Wave can be extremely helpfull for fast threats such as greninja, whom are also special attackers. It helps the team greatly by crippling a dragon dancer right off the bat, while scald is used for slower pokes such as mega garchomp. (Immune to T-wave, bad example X/ )