Anti-Vaxxers

Counterpoint, altaria. The mega doesn't benefit, but the nonmega does (also not salvageable).
Chansey also almost totally benefits- it's ghost immunity, as you said, wasn't all that useful, while seismic toss is now unblockable, a major benefit, as are the now nearly unblockable toxic/twave.
Er. You do realize Altaria is a Flying type and therefore suffers from immunities being removed?

Chansey probably is overall at a plus -I said myself that the fact that it's no longer immune to Ghost isn't even a big deal- but Starmie and Corsola are the only Natural Cure Pokemon that are pure benefit.

Its great on scarf sets/special sets/trick room sets. being able to hit Darks removes everything that ever wanted to wall it, be they Mandibuzz, Bisharp on special sets... Its just harder to switch into, and it was already almost impossible. Fairies are also less viable, making its life just plain easier.
Dark+Fighting was already perfect coverage outside of Fairies, and its amazing mixed offenses mean even the idea of thinking Nasty Plot sets love the boost to Psyshock is questionable. There's no Dark/Fairy, either, as yet (Fingers crossed for Sun/Moon), which would be legitimately a case where Psychic's increased reliability would be huge.

Edgequake is great on common, common threats like landorus-T! Whats more, even landorus' coverage is resisted, because knock off is dark. You do need to watch out for uturn, but thats more common on choice scarf than setup. It also still has just as good coverage as dragon-ground, and actually just as good super affective coverage (with the added bonus of shedinja). Its not like edgequake really got worse.
No, seriously, why are you running Stone Edge? The reason edgequake is so good in Standard is because Ground is an amazing attacking type, Grass and Bug are both fairly awful defenders for the most part (And exceptions tend to be neutral to Ground anyway, eg Ferrothorn and Scizor), and Stone Edge covers the Flying types that are immune to Ground while being generally a solid attacking type.

Here though, Stone Edge is essentially redundant. It makes more sense to carry coverage for Levitators (eg Landorus-Therian should be running Knock Off for Bronzong), or for Bug/Grass, rather than running Stone Miss. Scarfed Landorus-Therian should probably run something like Earthquake/Knock Off/U-Turn/Hammer Arm. Stone Edge isn't adding anything to Landorus-Therian's coverage unless you've got a specific Bug in mind, and possibly not even then.

Offensive teams do have the advantage in that Linoone is just plain bad. It can sweep ho, but it cant set up vs ho. It can Set up vs stall, but stall has unaware. Besides, Skarmory does still check it- Whirlwind is a thing, as is sturdy, and if it was really desperate protect is too.
Whirlwind does not work on a Digging target. Skarmory's best-case scenario is that it stops Linoone's sweep (Wipes the boosts with Whirlwind on the Dig hit turn) but ends up on the verge of death, hoping that whatever it shuffled in can't kill it. That's a pretty good trade for Linoone's team.

As for regular offense, if it gets the chance to boost? Here are some not rare (not super common, but not rare) mons that beat it even after setup.

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 176-207 (73 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 208-246 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 286-337 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 307-363 (73 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO not even a resist, and this is extremely common
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 254-299 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO Has a shot at this, but a bit of investment/luck fixes that
+5 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 261-307 (68.3 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+5 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 180 Def Salamence: 327-385 (83.2 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (taken from damagecalc, not ultra specific ev's)
Linoone really has no reason to run Shadow Claw anymore, giving it room to run something like Return, and it can potentially outspeed all of these except Terrakion and Mega Diancie. (If Garchomp invests for enough Speed to win, it's missing out on the bulk)

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 367-432 (101.3 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 331-391 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 248 HP / 180 Def Salamence: 417-492 (106.1 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Seed Bomb is basically inferior to just running Dig, too -Linoone can literally run Extreme Speed/Return/Dig/Belly Drum and it's covered nearly the entire meta right there, bar a few more stall-y choices with specific typings and/or Abilities like Ferrothorn and Bronzong. Dig's only flaw in this kind of sweep is the potential for the enemy to have Protect on a thing you can't beat except with Dig. (eg Skarmory)

So Terrakion, Mega Diancie, and maybe Lucario if we assume Lucario is carrying its own Extreme Speed are all reliable stops out of your list. The rest is all iffy or flat-out a no when faced with probably the best Linoone set for Anti-Vaxxers.

How does ferrothorn suffer? Sure, it has a poison weakness, but poison wasn't common before and no longer hits the incredibly relevant fairy because fairies are no longer incredible relevant. On the other hand, it can now leech seed grass types, beat dragon types and paralyze electric/ground types. I guess it can be toxiced?
Fairies are still relevant, though less so, between having one of the two viable Unaware choices (Note that Quagsire is now weak to Electric, making it vulnerable to stuff like Wild Charge coverage, so Clefable is less hurt by the meta out of the two), having Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria as two incredibly powerful -ate choices, etc, and now Poison is no longer simply "bad Steel" for coverage since there's no immunities to deal with. I fully expect Poison offense to be a lot more relevant to the meta -note that, for instance, Crobat can now use Cross Poison as anti-Steel coverage to compliment its Brave Bird STAB.

And then Ferrothorn is weak to Poison and can be hit with Toxic, substantially hurting its walling behavior. It's easy for an offensive 'mon to carry Toxic as a stallbreaking tool, and it's easier than ever here. So yeah, I think Ferrothorn suffers -it's also Sporable now, so it flat-out hates Amoonguss,

Also you missed klefki.
Yeah okay I always forget about the thing even when I go looking up Spikes stackers. The meta hurts it, mind, but yeah it's normally viable, and stuff like Prankster Magnet Rise+Steel typing may well give it a noteworthy niche here.

Barring abilities, how is Fire+Dragon not perfect coverage in this metagame?
I never said it wasn't. I said that Mega Charizard X is a bad example, because it still wants Earthquake for Heatran.

...Klefki? Admittedly it also suffers hugely from this metagame, but it's certainly OU viable. There's also Chesnaught, which stands to gain a lot - flying has been significantly nerfed, its Fighting STAB is no longer walled by Ghosts, and it loves the influx of Ground-type attacks and Physical attackers (most dragons seem to prefer their physical offenses). It also walls Sludge Bomb Gengar thanks to Bulletproof, which is pretty cool.
Gengar pretty much always runs Sludge Wave, so Bulletproof isn't much protection from most Gengar. Chesnaught certainly appreciates Drain Punch being a lot more reliable, though, and for instance Substitute Chesnaught laughs outright against Mega Sableye. We'll see how meta trends work out.

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature
- Dragon Claw / Swords Dance
- Outrage / Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast / Fire Fang / *insert preferred coverage here*

Basically the same, but with STAB on Earthquake, the ability to boost, and better speed. Struggles with Bronzong to an extent.
Crunch is probably your best anti-Bronzong choice for Swords Dance sets.

+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 278-328 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bronzong: 322-382 (95.2 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

0- SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 146-174 (43.1 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Life Orb Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bronzong: 135-161 (39.9 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fire Blast fares a lot worse against Physically Defensive Bronzong than boosted Crunch does.

Scarf Garchomp is a different matter entirely, of course.

---

Is Flying still "protection" from Terrains, even though they're a beneficial effect, or is it only positive immunities that are shut off? In general, are Flying types simply no longer considered "not grounded" for any purpose, or only for purposes that result in them being harmed?

Is Synchronoise considered to fall under "type-based immunities"? (That is, does Synchronoise now work on anything?)

Honestly, the core of this meta is pretty easy to code. I might have it coded in the next couple of days.
 
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Er. You do realize Altaria is a Flying type and therefore suffers from immunities being removed?
No I do now. I just thought "not fairy, so isn't harmed". Forget that, then.
Dark+Fighting was already perfect coverage outside of Fairies, and its amazing mixed offenses mean even the idea of thinking Nasty Plot sets love the boost to Psyshock is questionable. There's no Dark/Fairy, either, as yet (Fingers crossed for Sun/Moon), which would be legitimately a case where Psychic's increased reliability would be huge.
Again, its harder to switch into, and drain punch is just too weak ( a resistsed hyperspace fur hitting exactly as hard as a nuetral drain punch). Against, say mandibuzz, its hard pressed to get a 7HKO! (252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 73-87 (17.2 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery) No matter how weakened the Buzzard is, it can switch in whenever it wants after rocks. Further, Hoopa's best set is scarf, which makes theoretical coverage much less meaningful (and special sets that aren't scarfed don't run drain punch).

Linoone really has no reason to run Shadow Claw anymore, giving it room to run something like Return, and it can potentially outspeed all of these except Terrakion and Mega Diancie. (If Garchomp invests for enough Speed to win, it's missing out on the bulk)

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 367-432 (101.3 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 331-391 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 248 HP / 180 Def Salamence: 417-492 (106.1 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Seed Bomb is basically inferior to just running Dig, too -Linoone can literally run Extreme Speed/Return/Dig/Belly Drum and it's covered nearly the entire meta right there, bar a few more stall-y choices with specific typings and/or Abilities like Ferrothorn and Bronzong. Dig's only flaw in this kind of sweep is the potential for the enemy to have Protect on a thing you can't beat except with Dig. (eg Skarmory)

So Terrakion, Mega Diancie, and maybe Lucario if we assume Lucario is carrying its own Extreme Speed are all reliable stops out of your list. The rest is all iffy or flat-out a no when faced with probably the best Linoone set for Anti-Vaxxers.
Please check before saying this, because its really kinda grating. Ecadril hits 302 speed, while adamant linoone hits a mere 299. Similarly, Jolly/timid lucario hits 306, and if it isn't its running bullet punch/extremespeed/mach punch/vacuum wave/move to make you miserable.
Seed bomb is good, because you can power though quagsire. That might not be relevant,though, so who knows.
Garchomp is a very good point, however. Just know that many players can and will make your life miserable with endure (125-50-33-25=14), so they only need to deal that trivial 14% while you set up.

Dig also has the flaw that its, ya know, dig, and that it gives levitators a free switch (like bronzong)

Edit because this isn't clear:
Turn 1: Linoone used dig!
Skarmory used stealth rock
Turn 2
Linoone used dig!
Linoone is hurt by skarmory's rocky helmet
Skarmory used roost
Turn 3
Linoone used dig!
Skarmory used roost
Turn 4
Linoone used dig!
Linoone is hurt by skarmory's rocky helmet
Skarmory used roost
Rinse, repeat.
Gengar pretty much always runs Sludge Wave, so Bulletproof isn't much protection from most Gengar. Chesnaught certainly appreciates Drain Punch being a lot more reliable, though, and for instance Substitute Chesnaught laughs outright against Mega Sableye. We'll see how meta trends work out.
Surprisingly, only about half do.
 
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Martin

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Just saying but Scarf is definitely not Hoopa-U's best set. IDK where you got that idea from, but it is really not all that good when compared to its other sets (it is about a sub-rank worse). Its LO and Band sets are both better than it by a noticable margin. Mandibuzz is 2HKOed by a CB Gunk Shot after Stealth Rock and LO Thunderbolt before rocks, so it doesn't counter Hoopa at all.
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
  • 96 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 265-315 (62.6 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
Again, its harder to switch into, and drain punch is just too weak ( a resistsed hyperspace fur hitting exactly as hard as a nuetral drain punch). Against, say mandibuzz, its hard pressed to get a 7HKO! (252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 73-87 (17.2 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery) No matter how weakened the Buzzard is, it can switch in whenever it wants after rocks. Further, Hoopa's best set is scarf, which makes theoretical coverage much less meaningful (and special sets that aren't scarfed don't run drain punch).
Okay, fair enough.

Please check before saying this, because its really kinda grating. Ecadril hits 302 speed, while adamant linoone hits a mere 299. Similarly, Jolly/timid lucario hits 306, and if it isn't its running bullet punch/extremespeed/mach punch/vacuum wave/move to make you miserable.
Seed bomb is good, because you can power though quagsire. That might not be relevant,though, so who knows.
Garchomp is a very good point, however. Just know that many players can and will make your life miserable with endure (125-50-33-25=14), so they only need to deal that trivial 14% while you set up.
+6 252 Atk Linoone Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 335-395 (92.5 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Linoone Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 295-348 (104.9 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Linoone: 165-195 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jolly Linoone will still usually kill a non-bulky Excadrill with Return, and if it's still fresh off the Belly Drum can tank one Lucario Extreme Speed and OHKO with Return. (I'm ignoring Focus Sash because it's irrelevant if you have Stealth Rock up and pretty much anything can counter Linoone via Focus Sash anyway) Lucario doesn't get Mach Punch, and Bullet Punch is weaker than Extreme Speed, which itself doesn't hit hard enough to take out Linoone if it's still fresh off the Belly Drum. It does get Vacuum Wave, and a Specially-oriented Life Orb Lucario will usually finish off speedy Linoone with Vacuum Wave while a bulky Linoone will be outsped by fast Lucario and one-shotted by Aura Sphere, so Special Lucario can beat Linoone. (Though it's risky if you don't know whether Linoone is specced for Speed or for bulk)

Quagsire's a good point, though. How relevant it is depends on other meta pressures -the fact that Quagsire is now weak to Electric hurts it, but might not hurt it enough given that Physical Electric coverage is uncommon/weak- but it's definitely a good point. Clefable is a more reliable hard stop to Linoone, though.

252+ Atk Linoone Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 140-166 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, Clefable can literally switch into an Iron Tail while Stealth Rock is up and still win, barring Iron Tail getting a Defense drop. (It's more likely that it misses at some point, though)

Dig also has the flaw that its, ya know, dig, and that it gives levitators a free switch (like bronzong)

Edit because this isn't clear:
Turn 1: Linoone used dig!
Skarmory used stealth rock
Turn 2
Linoone used dig!
Linoone is hurt by skarmory's rocky helmet
Skarmory used roost
Turn 3
Linoone used dig!
Skarmory used roost
Turn 4
Linoone used dig!
Linoone is hurt by skarmory's rocky helmet
Skarmory used roost
Rinse, repeat.
The only thing I'll point out is that if Linoone is running Last Resort instead of Return -probably gimmicky, but not necessarily- it promptly finishes off Skarmory instead of Digging a second time.

+6 252 Atk Linoone Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 173-204 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Return never quite does 50% even with Adamant, so Rocky Helmet Skarmory is a hard stop to Extreme Speed/Return/Dig/Belly Drum Linoone, definitely, barring Linoone getting lucky with a crit on a Return.

How relevant it is that it gives Levitaters a free switch-in depends on how relevant any given Levitator is. Bronzong seems likely to be relevant, in which case Dig is definitely flawed, but... well, actually, it's almost the only Levitator that matters for fighting Linoone. Almost all the others are OHKOed by Extreme Speed or outsped and OHKOed by Return/Frustration. Physically Defensive Weezing has a chance of surviving, at least if there's no Stealth Rock, and Physically Defensive Latias can tank an Extreme Speed even with Stealth Rock up (Assuming Leftovers) and outspeeds bulky Linoone. (Fast Linoone outspeeds and OHKOs with Return/Frustration, though) Physically Defensive Cresselia can actually reliably tank a single Return too, but it only hits back for up to 42% with Psychic (Assuming fast Linoone -bulky takes less than 30%), and it loses up to 81% off of Return, so basically it's best bet is to toss out Toxic. If it's Rocky Helmet I don't think it can stall with Moonlight for even one extra turn? The calculator isn't very useful for answering these kinds of questions. Rotom-Wash also survives a Return with enough HP for Stealth Rock damage to not be a problem, though it's probably going to be finished off by one of Linoone's buddies afterward.

The other Levitators are all too fragile, and only Bronzong is bulky enough to comfortably check Linoone. Even Giratina-Origin doesn't like Linoone!

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Frustration vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Giratina-O: 351-414 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Obviously Giratina would then drop a Will O Wisp on it or phaze it out, but it wouldn't be happy regardless)

Linoone is scary if it gets set up.

----

Technically, Soak is a move that involves a type-based immunity. I was originally going to say it doesn't matter whether it works on Water types or not, until I remembered that it does matter -Pokemon who are Water+another type care about whether Soak fails on Water types or not, because it would presumably set them to being pure Water type. (Forest's Curse and Trick or Treat could be argued as falling under this, but stacking a type onto itself doesn't change anything so it doesn't actually matter in their cases)

Other than it, the Terrains, and Synchronoise, I don't think there's any other cases that could be considered as a type-based immunity.
 
+6 252 Atk Linoone Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 335-395 (92.5 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Linoone Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 295-348 (104.9 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Linoone: 165-195 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jolly Linoone will still usually kill a non-bulky Excadrill with Return, and if it's still fresh off the Belly Drum can tank one Lucario Extreme Speed and OHKO with Return. (I'm ignoring Focus Sash because it's irrelevant if you have Stealth Rock up and pretty much anything can counter Linoone via Focus Sash anyway) Lucario doesn't get Mach Punch, and Bullet Punch is weaker than Extreme Speed, which itself doesn't hit hard enough to take out Linoone if it's still fresh off the Belly Drum. It does get Vacuum Wave, and a Specially-oriented Life Orb Lucario will usually finish off speedy Linoone with Vacuum Wave while a bulky Linoone will be outsped by fast Lucario and one-shotted by Aura Sphere, so Special Lucario can beat Linoone. (Though it's risky if you don't know whether Linoone is specced for Speed or for bulk)
So? They are faster, so good luck getting your return off vs excadrill/lucario. Every viable lucario set can and will defeat you: (Jolly uses CC, adamant uses bullet punch/extreme speed (which while doesn't ko with sitrus does mean you can't afford to take more that maybe 9% (everything can do that much), Timid uses aura sphere, modest uses vacuum wave), while jolly excadrill beats you, as does scarfscadrill, and sand rush in sand.

My Point wasn't living a return, it was that they only needed to live an extreme speed.


The only thing I'll point out is that if Linoone is running Last Resort instead of Return -probably gimmicky, but not necessarily- it promptly finishes off Skarmory instead of Digging a second time.

+6 252 Atk Linoone Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 173-204 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Return never quite does 50% even with Adamant, so Rocky Helmet Skarmory is a hard stop to Extreme Speed/Return/Dig/Belly Drum Linoone, definitely, barring Linoone getting lucky with a crit on a Return.
Last resort is always gimmicky. It might be affective, but it will never be more than that.

Tbh, it'll probably be a thing, but in the same way that mixed rock polish pdon is a thing in ubers- breaking a few checks, being unexpected, and people being wary of switching its new checks in.
The other Levitators are all too fragile, and only Bronzong is bulky enough to comfortably check Linoone. Even Giratina-Origin doesn't like Linoone!

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Frustration vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Giratina-O: 351-414 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Obviously Giratina would then drop a Will O Wisp on it or phaze it out, but it wouldn't be happy regardless)

Linoone is scary if it gets set up.
Edit:
Um I'm pretty sure you missed the point of the meta.

Also nice OP format :3
Goddangit I thought this was a follow the leader post for some reason. nevermind, forget that. I need to pay more attentionto what I post.
 
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So? They are faster, so good luck getting your return off vs excadrill/lucario. Every viable lucario set can and will defeat you: (Jolly uses CC, adamant uses mach punch/extreme speed (which while doesn't ko with sitrus does mean you can't afford to take more that maybe 9% (everything can do that much), Timid uses aura sphere, modest uses vacuum wave), while jolly excadrill beats you, as does scarfscadrill, and sand rush in sand.

My Point wasn't living a return, it was that they only needed to live an extreme speed.
Linoone is base 100 Speed. Lucario is base 90 Speed and doesn't get Mach Punch. (I already said this, you can check it yourself, why am I having to repeat this?) Excadrill is base 88 Speed. Linoone's access to Extreme Speed is event-locked but not nature-locked.

Where, exactly, are you getting the idea that they are automatically faster, and therefore Return is irrelevant? Linoone can run Jolly, I was explicitly talking about Jolly beating them.

Scarf and Sand Rush in Sandstorm win, yes, but that's it.

Last resort is always gimmicky. It might be affective, but it will never be more than that.

Tbh, it'll probably be a thing, but in the same way that mixed rock polish pdon is a thing in ubers- breaking a few checks, being unexpected, and people being wary of switching its new checks in.
Main flaw with it to me is that needing three turns of preparation to get access to Last Resort is... way too many turns when you're trying to sweep and aren't that tough anyway. Even treating the Belly Drum turn as a given, that's still extremely difficult to pull off... and it's not like Last Resort lets you break the Unawares, so it's iffy as a stallbreaking tool, where you have the best odds of getting those turns. Still, it might be something some people run.

---

Also, since the Council has apparently decided Flying types are simply not grounded, I'll need to rework the code to make that so. On the plus side, that'll simplify the already-simple code, and also avoid edge-case bugs. (I suspect the existing code means even an Air Balloon Zapdos would be trapped by Arena Trap/harmed by Spikes/etc)

... just need to figure out how to make the code say "Flying types are not considered grounded."
 
Linoone is base 100 Speed. Lucario is base 90 Speed and doesn't get Mach Punch. (I already said this, you can check it yourself, why am I having to repeat this?) Excadrill is base 88 Speed. Linoone's access to Extreme Speed is event-locked but not nature-locked.

Where, exactly, are you getting the idea that they are automatically faster, and therefore Return is irrelevant? Linoone can run Jolly, I was explicitly talking about Jolly beating them.

Scarf and Sand Rush in Sandstorm win, yes, but that's it.
... . This is why I do not post when Tired. I apologize- In this case it was me who didn't check. I knew linoone was something-locked, but in this case it's ability and not nature.
I did mean bullet punch, Thank you for catching that.
And I had thought that this was your bulky set, not your jolly set. Major reading comprehension fail.

So this isn't just me commenting n my failures in communication, have some more theorymon!
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 339-400 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and even +6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 356-420 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
new counter?
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
People seem to bring up Linoone every metagame and in 99% of those it fails to make an impact. It has to run Belly Drum and Extreme Speed otherwise it has no niche (Dragonite's Espeed actually hits slightly harder at +0 despite not getting STAB, and it actually has coverage), and the last two slots are between Return/Seed Bomb/Gunk Shot/Thief (lets it potentially beat/cripple Eviolite walls because +6 252+ Atk Linoone Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 250-295 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and P2 gets Foul Play).
But whichever two it chooses it's walled by something - without Seed Bomb it can't touch Quagsire (and it needs to run adamant to nearly guarantee the 2HKO, leaving it vulnerable to stuff like Jolly Excadrill), Gunk Shot is required to beat Unaware Clef (but can't even 2HKO unless it gets the poison), it needs Dig to touch Skarm which still wins if it has a helmet by simply spamming roost, Return is its best option against certain other bulky things (looking at you, P2). Wishtect Jirachi also hardwalls it if it doesn't carry Shadow Claw.
Offense can also easily revenge it with a faster resist - Terrakion outspeeds, for example, and can even switch in if it has to, since +0 Seed Bomb + Espeed is never a KO (and if it belly drums on the switch it just dies), and it also gains massively from the Fighting buff.

tl;dr Linoone suffers from 4MSS and nature-syndrome. It's too weak to break through stall even with SE coverage, and not fast enough to beat offense. It won't be good in this metagame
 

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