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Antiestablishmentarianism (or Articuno's Revenge) peaked at #8

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by WhiteDMist, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Articuno's Revenge
    [​IMG]

    Greetings all! Welcome to another one of my NU Rate My Teams! I may not be familiar to many readers and raters since I only play NU (for now at least). I rarely venture out of anything NU related, and I mostly focus on NU RMTs. Lately it has been difficult to rate because of many (very obviously) new players in the NU metagame. The transition to BW2 and the release of many new Dream World abilities have coincided with tier shifts, so the entire metagame was unsteady for a while. Add that to the bumpy transition from Pokemon Online to Pokemon Showdown and the difficulty of laddering and it makes one not want to play very often. With the upcoming ladder reset, I feel this would be the perfect time to get some input for this particular team. While I obviously do not have a perfect record as a battler, so far I have had a perfect record with this team in the two weeks that I have used it. Unfortunately, most of the opponents I have faced were either new to the NU metagame or were not at their game. I have also not seen many top players lately (same with my group of friends here) since I don't stay on Showdown very long due to the terrible lag. So I'm hoping that these friends and top players will at the very least give me some outside input to make this team's potential grow. Here at least is a screenshot of my current ranking:

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]

    With this particular team, I have had around 10 wins and no losses, not counting the wins and losses during the period where the ladder refused to work (within a 2 week period, this is rather pathetic regardless). Still I believe that my only loss was unrated because of that so maybe I should be grateful :/ .


    One of my most favorite Pokemon is Articuno. It is a beautiful Pokemon, and is very underrated. It has amazing base stats due to its legendary status, yet is mostly ignored. We all know the main problems to its success are Stealth Rock and Rock moves (especially Rock Blast users like Cinccino). The goal of this team was to make a successful Articuno team. There are a few sets that Articuno can use, but they are mostly defensive sets. These sets require a way to prevent and remove Stealth Rocks from the field, which isn't easy with the sparse selection of Rapid Spinners available to the NU tier. So I decided on an offensive set, which also took advantage of Articuno's main gift from BW2, Hurricane. This meant that I didn't really need to remove Rocks from the field quite as much, but I still built my team around not letting my opponent get up Rocks if I can help it.

    The other purpose of my team was to counter a good portion of the metagame, as well as most people's teams. Antiestablishmentarianism as defined by the webster online dictionary (it's sadly not on the merriam-webster online dictionary) as: the doctrine of opposition to the social and political establishment (the longer word antidisestablishmentarianism is the opposition of this doctrine). That is a great definition of this team's purpose: to defy the social establishment of the current NU metagame. This team has answers to most of the common Pokemon in play right now, as well as most of the top 10 used Pokemon of July.

    Show Hide
    Teambuilding Process

    [​IMG]
    This entire team is based around Articuno, so it is the most obvious starting point.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Next I needed offensive options to preventing Rocks from being set up. Multi-hit moves tend to be the most effective way of stopping the common Sturdy hazard setters. So I chose Cacturne and Cinccino for their strong Bullet Seeds. Cacturne also has the benefit of setting up Spikes and being a decent revenge killer with Encore and Sucker Punch. Cinccino was very hyped, and I wanted to try it out. It also beat Golem and Carracosta rather well, so it was definitely a great option.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    I added Seismitoad because it received Stealth Rock in BW2, and this was a perfect time to test it out. Rotom-S has been my go to revenge killer ever since I started playing 5th gen, so it was a must for me.

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    Haunter was my final choice, and it has been a Pokemon that I have been using a lot lately. In fact, since so many people have been using Golurk as an offensive spinblocker, Haunter has dropped from #9 to #25. I kind of feel that I'm the reason that it is still relatively high, but that's probably not true. Let me think that though ;)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sadly, Cinccino was't living up to expectations. I also needed something that could OHKO Regirock, and Cinccino can't do so. So I decided on Rampardos, who had a good chance to do so.

    And with that, my team was completed. It still wasn't perfect, but it got the job done.



    Now on to the team:


    [​IMG]

    Articuno @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Ice Beam
    - Hurricane
    - Hidden Power Ground
    - Roost

    Like I have said, Articuno is the Pokemon my team is based around. I chose the offensive variant because Stall is very difficult to pull off in the current metagame. Also, I wished to use Articuno's new gift in Hurricane. I have been rather lucky with Hurricane, since it doesn't miss constantly like I had feared. It also makes Articuno a great counter to the Amoonguss-Alomomola core. Ice Beam is still more reliable, but is considerably weaker. Still, the occasional freeze or confusion has saved me from defeat, so they are non-negotiable. Hidden Power Ground is a move that I am not thrilled to have. Originally I had Substitute in that moveslot, but Steel type Pokemon were beginning to get on my nerves. While my team tended to be walled by them, Articuno seemed to be the one to draw in Steel-types like moths to a flame, so HP Ground became necesary. Roost has been very useful to offset Life Orb recoil as well as damage from my opponent. It is even more useful if I fail to prevent Stealth Rocks, since it lets Articuno switch out more safely. I use Modest over Timid because Articuno needs all the power if can get. Also, I REALLY don't like risking a speed tie with other positive base 85 Spe Pokes like Sawk and Pinsir (plus I can always Hurricane Scarf Sawk and tank a CC at full health). The rest of my team covers what Articuno cannot outspeed.


    [​IMG]

    Seismitoad (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Rain Dance
    - Sludge Wave
    - Hydro Pump
    - Earth Power

    Odd set right? I needed a Stealth Rock setter, but I didn't want a Flying or Fighting weak Pokemon for this slot. Seismitoad fit this slow because of that alone. More importantly, it can beat several less common Stealth Rock setters and anti-leads like Marowak and Rampardos. But there is a deeper reason than even that: Rain Dance. Has anyone noticed that most teams nowadays seem to have a weakness to Rain? Well, being a NU RMT regular, I have noticed. So this is one of my anti-meta Pokemon, inflicting massive damage to teams that have such vulnerability to Rain. Rain Dance can also benefit Articuno by making its Hurricane 100% accurate. Stealth Rocks is a necessity to deal with the annoying Flying-types that outspeed a good portion of my team. Hydro Pump and Earth Power are powerful, STAB boosted moves. While there are plenty of occasions where I wish that I had Sludge Wave as well, for the most part I am content. It helps that I still do over 30% to Amoonguss with Earth Power after all.

    Changes: I've removed Stealth Rock for Sludge Wave to hit Grass-types harder (especially Ludicolo).
    Edit: I had...conveniently forgotten to list my new EV spread made to outspeed Modest Ludicolo. Silly me...

    [​IMG]

    Rampardos (M) @ Life OrbChoice Band
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Head Smash
    - Superpower
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock

    Rampardos has a simple job: smash hazard setters. Regirock has become more common, and I needed something that can actually break through it in a single hit. A Banded Superpower has a great chance of doing so, and the bonus comes from the amount of damage I still do to everything else. I once OHKO an Amoonguss with Head Smash, though I don't know if it was specially defensive or not. Regardless, the power Rampardos possesses is amazing, and it can actually tank a weak hit or two. More importantly, many opponents tend to be wary of it (for good reason of course), meaning that they don't always pay attention to some of my other Pokemon until it is too late. Earthquake is a safer alternative to Superpower, but Crunch is something that I'm not sure about. If there is a better move for the slot, I'd be happy to hear it, since I have never used it myself.

    Changes: I have removed Choice Band for Life Orb and Crunch for Stealth Rock.

    [​IMG]

    Haunter (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Disable
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sludge Bomb

    Haunter has a couple of important roles in this team. It is my back-up sweeper if Articuno is gone. It is also my counter to Zangoose. Most importantly, it is THE anti-metagame Pokemon of my team. I have mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. When I was talking to Agent Dell about making a new team and thought about basing a team around SubDisable Haunter, he mentioned offhandedly that SubDisable Haunter screwed over most teams in the NU RMT section. I had to agree with him, and I still do: SubDisable Haunter can single-handedly tear teams apart. With an amazing base 95 Speed, it made up for Articuno's Modest nature. I can almost always find time to set up a Substitute, and I usually can find a perfect time to Disable my opponent's moves. Shadow Ball is obligatory, but Sludge Bomb was a hard choice. I had thought about HP Fighting for that slow for perfect coverage, but I decided not to because of one important thing: I needed to be able to speed tie with other positive nature base 95 speeders. Sludge Bomb also was considerably more powerful. Sure, I am walled by Steels, but that is a price I am willing to pay for speed.


    [​IMG]

    Rotom-S @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Air Slash
    - Trick

    Rotom-S is my go to revenge killer for a few reasons. The main reason is that it has an excellent base 86 Speed, so it can always beat +2 Gorebyss. It has decent power, can Volt Switch around and give me momentum, and can screw over stall with Trick. Ironically, Air Slash is one of my most used moves since it is reliable and has a good chance to flinch (which has saved my ass quite a few times). There is no other revenge killer in the NU tier that can do what Rotom-S does for my team, which includes taking Fighting and Flying hits. MOST importantly, it is my best answer to Cinccino, who can destroy me if I am not careful. If you are anyone in the NU tier, you know how effective Rotom-S is at its job. There are a few occasions where I would like some extra coverage, like the Hidden Power Ice that Majestic Electric so likes. But for the most part, I am satisfied with Rotom-S' coverage.


    [​IMG]

    Cacturne (F) @ Quick Claw
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Seed
    - Sucker Punch
    - Spikes
    - Encore

    Cacturne is my final team member, and it has done pretty well in that slot. It may not have Water Absorb, but it still is a decent switch in to Water-type moves from the likes of Alomomola and Wartortle (lol). Bullet Seed is a necessity, as otherwise I'd probably choose the SubSpike set instead. Sucker Punch is a must because it is my only form of priority on this team (which still puts chills in my heart). But it is Encore that really makes me use this particular set, especially with Sweet Jesus' loves of it. Quick Claw is the odd man out with this set. I originally had King's Rock instead, but then I found out that it doesn't work properly on Showdown ;-;. Leftovers was unnecessary since I don't really need the extra health much. Life Orb is rather pointless, since I still don't need to detract from my already low survivability. Lum Berry is an option, but I don't see the need for it much. Quick Claw hasn't really helped me either, but it can give me a chance to ruin my opponents plans with Encore, Sucker Punch, or even Bullet Seed. At worst, I get another layer of Spikes or nothing happens at all.


    Threats

    Sun Teams are a major threat, since they basically destroy me. Thankfully they are very rare.

    This is the complete threat list. Unfortunately, I can't fit it all in a single post, and multiple posts look too disorganized, so this is my solution.


    Conclusion

    As evidence by the nature of this tea, this is an offensive team. Sure, there are small hints of tankishness among my team, but this team is not meant to take too many hits. This team has a lot of potential, and I want to take it as high as it can go. So, my fellow NU players and raters, I am open to all suggestions! :heart:

    Show Hide

    Articuno @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Ice Beam
    - Hurricane
    - Hidden Power Ground
    - Roost

    Seismitoad (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 92 HP / 252 SAtk / 164 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Rain Dance
    - Sludge Wave
    - Hydro Pump
    - Earth Power

    Rampardos (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Head Smash
    - Superpower
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock

    Haunter (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Disable
    - Shadow Ball
    - Sludge Bomb

    Rotom-S @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Air Slash
    - Trick

    Cacturne (F) @ Quick Claw
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Seed
    - Sucker Punch
    - Spikes
    - Encore
  2. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Hello WhiteDMist. Props to you for appreciating my importance to the NU community. Helps a lot. :)

    While this is a good offensive team, and is few between threats, just by glancing at it, I can tell in theory that you have a MASSIVE weakness to Raichu, who, even if it does not choose to setup Nasty Plot, it can decimate practically the entire team with just Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, and HP Ice/Substitute/Encore alone. Similarly, most Electric Types that carry HP Grass can usually clean this up team up rather well late game, while Eelektross can usually eliminate at least one Pokemon within your team, especially if the player leads out into it, which can put a lot of pressure on you, as you're forced to sac something, making it a threat as well.

    I would replace Tbolt with a Hidden Power of Choice for Rotom-S, because your team cannot afford to lock itself into Thunderbolt if one of those Electric types are still in the match, thus, more coverage against the possible Altaria, who can rather terrorize a good portion of the team if it manages to setup a Dragon Dance. Because of such, HP Ice isn't a bad idea as well.

    I'll stop here for now. I'll think of more threats to mention meanwhile, as well as Pokemon to consider for the team to manage those threats. I would consider Specially Defensive Camerupt or Standard Piloswine in the replacement of Seismitoad, however. BRB, making my Articuno team!
  3. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus

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    I thought of Raichu when I was looking through your threatlist, but it still didn't really strike me as too threatening. You're right though, a well played Raichu can't clean up nicely against my team. However, Cacturne can usually revenge kill it and it really can't afford to switch into anything but Rotom-S. I'm not foolish enough to randomly spam Electric moves if I see an immunity, don't worry. Still, I admit my weakness to Electric types, but I've found that they are rather easy to wear down. Only Eelektross is any real threat, and that is more because I have to know what kind it is before I can deal with it. As for Camerupt, I'd most likely have thought of it and scrapped it since it doesn't do what I need it to do: prevent Stealth Rocks from being set up.

    Btw Dell, can you send me the pastebin version of your threatlist if you still have it? It'll take up less space than multiple posts would. :)
  4. Majestic Electric

    Majestic Electric

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Long time no see, White! :) Really nice team you have here. Agent Dell has already said everything I was going to and I agree that Camerupt would help the team more. However, I would keep Seismitoad though. Getting rid of it will make you more weak to rain teams and Ludicolo in general. That's why I would replace Rampardos with Camerupt. If you choose to do this, you can opt to use Sludge Wave on Seismitoad instead of Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock will already be covered by Camerupt, anyway.

    Show Hide
    Rampardos -> Specially Defensive Camerupt
    Stealth Rock -> Sludge Wave on Seismitoad


    Good luck with the team and congrats on your peak! :)
  5. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Thanks Majestic! (and thanks Dell! sorry forgot to do that). Like I said, I like the idea of Camerupt, but I only have 6 team slots. The main focal point is still Articuno and Haunter to a lesser extent. To that end, I REALLY need to keep Stealth Rocks off my field as long as possible, and Camerupt can't do that. I know my Electric weakness, but I can always handle a single Electric Pokemon on a team. It is more of when there are multiple Electric (or really double of any types) that I start having trouble. So you see my situation: either I guard against my Electric weakness or I risk one of my Pokemon having half a lifespan to inflict damage. :(

    Dell: Altaria isn't really much of a threat to me, and its very hard for it to get a DD boost with all my offensive pressure. Piloswine looks interesting though, even if I have to give up one of my anti-meta Pokemon. I'll test it out when I can!
  6. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Well, considering that a Raichu with Substitute/Thunderbolt/Grass Knot/Hp Ice would likely mean GG and maybe even a straight up 6-0 on you if it does setup Substitute successfully, I still won't deny it being a threat to your team, since relying on Cacturne to revenge a Raichu that carries Substitute or Encore is not the best option, as Raichu will eventually turn out victorious. Also, if you intend on keeping Seismitoad, I would suggest that you have Rampardos as your Stealth Rock setter, as it can usually scare off Eelektross leads because of Mold Breaker Earthquake. Give it a Life Orb set with 3 Attacks.

    It's a good idea to mention that Rock Polish Torterra can rip this team apart as well, making Piloswine a more attractive option, if you decide to get rid of Seismitoed.

    Edit: Alright, I'll make a pastebin version of my threat list sometime tonight I guess, so if you find me on PS or just message me to remind your request, I'll have it for you.
  7. FLCL

    FLCL
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
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    To lessen your Ludicolo problem I would highly suggest running Sludge Wave on Seismitoad with enough EV's to outrun max Speed Modest Ludicolo in the rain. You'll still have to get some prior damage on it with Cacturne's Sucker Punch, but at least it gives you a way to revenge Ludicolo if Cacturne is down.

    You'll also have to change Rampardos to a Life Orb set with Head Smash, Superpower, Earthquake, and Stealth Rock as the moves. This might look like suicide since Rampardos is already taking so much recoil, but its main job is to lead and prevent Stealth Rock from going up. Life Orb actually makes this easier since you can Head Smash freely and not worry about Golem or another Ground or Steel type coming in and setting up Rocks after a kill. You'll probably have a harder time setting up Stealth Rocks, but Rampardos actually forces a lot of switches since everyone expects it to be the Choice Band variant.

    As for the Raichu weakness Agent Dell mentioned, not many of them run three attacks so either Cacturne or Seismitoad can check it. If you're still not comfortable with it, you could try Hidden Power Ground over Thunderbolt on Rotom-S to not only check Raichu, but also to 2HKO Rock or Steel types switching in looking to set up Stealth Rocks for free.

    Summary of changes:

    Stealth Rock —> Sludge Wave on Seismitoad
    Crunch —> Stealth Rock on Rampardos
    Choice Band —> Life Orb on Rampardos
    [Optional] Thunderbolt —> Hidden Power Ground on Rotom-S


    Set(s) (open)
    Seismitoad @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 224 Spd / 252 SAtk / 32 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Earth Power
    - Sludge Wave
    - Rain Dance

    Rampardos @ Life Orb
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Head Smash
    - Superpower
    - Stealth Rock

    Rotom-Fan @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Volt Switch
    - Trick
    - Hidden Power [Ground]


    Excellent team WhiteDMist, and I hope these changes will make it better!
  8. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Thanks FLCL! Your ideas are as good as always. I'll try out Rampardos and Seismitoad's changes. Still iffy on HP, but we'll see. I'll also try out Dell's Piloswine idea and see if it makes the team better.

    Apologies on the difficulty of rating a team so dedicated to a specific goal. To me, Articuno is worth it! :)
  9. Bluwing

    Bluwing

    Joined:
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    I agree with FLCL on the set for Seismitoad, but I think CB is better on Rampardos as your team wil have really hard time against speciall walls if Rampardos die. Also I will suggest HP Ice on on Rotom to surprise ground types predicting you to Volt Switch or T-Bolt. To take care off Raichu you can give Haunter, HP Ground instead off Shadow Ball as it beats all off the Psychic/Ghost types with disable as you can handle Raichu and Steel types.

    This team is very unique and very balanced ! I really LOVE !!! That you are using Articuno because its my favourite off the three birds, and I think you did an amazing job ! :)
  10. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Thanks for the rate BROStime! I did a calc, and it seems that Banded Rampardos can't KO 252 HP Regirock without prior damage so there goes that idea. Seismitoad can KO Offensive Regirock with Hydro Pump, so there's that at least. As for keeping Choice Band on Rampardos, I'll either go with the LO set or change to Piloswine. A fun fact is that even with Life Orb, Rampardos KOs specially defensive Amoonguss 100% of the time with Head Smash.
  11. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    509
    Hey there whiteD, it's been too long since I've seen you on showdown.

    I tried making a team based on sub disable haunter too and ended up with something completley different. This team is very cool and I think I can help make it slightly better.
    (ok checking back at what I wrote in the end, I might have changed it quite a bit lol take what you want from my advice)

    I agree with everyone about the change of stealth rock user from seismitoad to rampardos and adjusting toad's speed to ludicolo's level. That is, if you don't take my changes into consideration.

    I would still keep seismitoad over the piloswine that dell suggested because that raichu is not quite as common as ludicolo, and you can always try to set up rain before raichu comes in since as you said, he has few opportunities to come in.

    Now I'm gonna change subject for a while, but don't worry it all comes back to your team in the end. When I made my haunter based team, I chose to go offensive too. However, I still plugged somesort of a defensive core into it. I ended up using probopass as a good main wall with a slow volt switch to keep momentum and subdisable haunter and exeguttor to back up his main weaknesses and smaurott to counter water ice combination. I think your team lacks somesort of offensive based defensive core and this gets you some pretty annoying flaws. You seem to rely a lot on immunities to get your free switches but some types like ice can really shread your team apart. Regice is certanly something to be added to the threat list because unlike lickilicky he actualy does more than just spam minor damage. Sure you can get rid of him with rampardos, but he can still come in pretty safely on all your other pokes and do massive damage to all of your possible switch-ins.

    Now I might be ruining half the theme of the team but you get to do what you wnat with my suggestions.

    Offensive articuno is really cool you know, articuno's got that swag and stuff but I think most of the time, it's outcalssed by Regice. The main downpoint of Regice being his lack of reliable recovery (because he sure has the bulk to be good with a slow speed.) Resttalk boltbeam is the best set imo and would also give your team a status absorber and a way of breaking amoonguss alomomola core without getting something else asleep. It would also make you less weak to opposing regice. Even though regice vs regice is... you can switch to rampy on predicted rest. Regice would also give you your raichu counter. Lefties or LO is up to you, I prefer lefties

    As you said in cacturne's description, I do believe encore is one of the best moves in the game but I think speed is very important to pull it off correctly. I know skilled players like you and FLCL can pull it off with cacturne's low speed but cacturnes only use in encore is to give it free turns to set up spikes. I think I understand your thought process in teambuilding saying hey sub disable haunter, offensive team, let's plug a spiker into it !
    However, I have tried haunter with SR only and it works very well too really. I'm really wandering if spikes do that much to your team and I think cacturne is just another very frail pokemon added to your team that helps when you already have the upper hand but isn't helping against any of your teams counters when needed. Now I don't have any suggestions to replace cacturne alone but if I change more members, I'm really sarting to make this team as much mine as yours so I'll just wrap it up with some brief advices.

    I would maybe change cacturne to something more physicaly bulky but keeping it grass and possibly adding leech seed to help regice in his recovery and adding predicted switch momentum which is crucial to an offensive team (+ most seeded pokemon will actually heal haunter like crazy and he won't even need disable) I'm thinking a weird torterra set with SR too could help your team out. You could then keep rampy as it is and change seismitoad for sommething with good priority since regice does a good job tanking most of what he tanks. Zangoose could be an option but you would become extremly weak to fire so I would rather suggest classic SD samurott. This would all leave you just as weak to ludicolo as you were initialy however but Regice can tank a hit and do decent damage to it. Of course if you do make these changes, Rotom-S ends up in a competley different team, I think he can stay there since you lose your other ground immunity with the change of articuno (and hainter is a risky switch) to regice but you might want to recheck if he's really the best option to the new team.

    (btw I would keep rampy like it is atm but if amoonguss was to be banned or change tier, I have a new weaker but longer lasting custom set that could bypass tangela without suiciding with head smash
    Sheer Force LO Att+ Sp.D- Max Att Max speed ; rock slide, EQ/superpower, Crunch/EQ, Fire Blast)

    Wouh as every time I rate a team, I go on and on and on. Hope it helped and that we'll meet on PS soon though I'm in no wifi zone for the next 2 weeks starting tomorrow so that's not too likely to happen. Oh and I look forward on catching up with you on that terrible ladder system with my own haunter team.
  12. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Thanks for the rate Jesus!

    Yes it has :(

    While I won't disagree that Regice is better as a tank, the entire point of this team is to allow Articuno tear thrive. First I d everything I can to prevent my opponent from setting up Stealth Rock (the jobs that Rampardos, Seismitoad, and Cacturne all do together). SubDisable Haunter is used as a back up offensive force that happens to be devastating to many teams. Anyways, while Regice is a bitch to defeat, it cannot single-handedly take on my team. I still have Rampardos to KO it, Seismitoad to inflict considerable damage to it, and Cacturne to Encore it into Rest or Thunderbolt.

    I don't mind you going on and on, it gives me better insight into my team. You've been away for a while already, and now you're going to a no wifi zone? :( I look foward to facing you soon regardless! :pimp:
  13. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Regice usualy runs max sp.A max HP. Seismitoad can do some good damage if he's already on the field, but he won't do much if he switches in. Sure cacturne can encore him in T bolt but to do so you have to trick him with Articuno as he's the only poke he will t bolt and cacturne really doesn't tank t bolt to well anyway. Doing so will likely get you lots of SR damage if they're on the field (offensive momentum is good to keep SR away but if the opponent really wants his rocks, chances are he'll get them. For rampy, Sure he counters him but he can't switch-in and he ain't lasting long with Head Smash anyway.

    For the ladder, I was 3 points behind you and then lost twice so I'm gonna try another team :p.
  14. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Ice Beam and T-bolt won't KO Rampardos even with Rocks on the field, and I can always Superpower instead. Rest is also good Encore bait. In truth, it really isn't hard to wear it down in the first place, with Rocks and Spikes up. Besides, there's very little that I can change to handle it without completely changing the dynamics of my team. Every member has a specific purpose, and to give up a Poke requires something that can at least attempt to take over that purpose.
  15. TheStarRapper

    TheStarRapper

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    I did a damage calc for the biggest threats in NU to Support Regirock, and it looks like the only (from what I understand would be viable and worth running) pokemon that can reliably OHKO him are SpecsExceggutor, SpecsSimipour, and all out attacker Samurott. The one that I think would work best for you is Samurott, as he even gets access to taunt. Here's a copy paste from the onsite analysis (full credit to them and what not):

    Samurott (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Taunt
    - Grass Knot
    - Ice Beam

    The damage calc for Hydro Pump is 97.25 - 115.65%, but if you're afraid of misses or 1/6 chance to not ohko, then taunt and two grass knots can also do the trick, and Samurott has the bulk to pull it off.
  16. FLCL

    FLCL
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    I'm assuming WhiteDMist would have to replace Seismitoad for Samurott. That change would make WhiteDMist's team extremely weak to Rotom-S, who can now Volt Switch against a large portion of the team and gain the advantage either way. Regirock isn't as common right now; the only user of it I have seen on the ladder recently is CrashinBoomBang, who ran an offensive set with 252 HP EVs and 252 Attack EVs, which can be OHKOed easily by Seismitoad.
  17. blunder

    blunder

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    really nice team, I just have one suggestion. If you are running Spikes Cacturne change the Ev Spread to 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Speed. With 252 Speed, Cacturne doesn't outspeed anything crucial and the 80 HP Evs are appreciated when switching into water types and the such
  18. Incon

    Incon

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    Hey White! Really cool team you have here. Articuno is one of my favorite mons too and ive always wanted to build a team around it. Being that team building is a weakness for me, i never made one that worked :P (Good thing im rating your team, eh?).

    Anyway, I ran some calcs and found that Rampardos cannot Ohko Golem or Max Defense Carrocosta with neither superpower nor earthquake, giving them a turn to set up rocks. Rocks are detrimental to the success of Articuno, and because you lack a spinner, they will be up the whole match. Golem isnt too much of a problem because you have Seismitoad for that (Sturdy will give it problems though...). Max Defensive Carracosta, although not common, can tank any hit from Rampardos and Seismitoad, and set up SR while only getting Ohko'd from a 5 hit bullet seed from Cacturne.

    My advice to you is to swap Cacturne for Cinccino. Like Sweet Jesus said, spikes are not a necessity to your team. Cinccino can ohko both Golem and Carracosta with bullet seed, as well as, alleviate your team of some threats such as Serperior, Samurott, and Braviary, as well as outspeed and ko Raichu, even behind a sub. Please slap me if this suggestion is completely wrong and doesnt make sense lol, but with my calculations, it would be a great asset. The sheer power of Tail Slap does a huge chunk to most of the tier, and while its not very anti-meta, (Which is what i love about this team and try to do for my teams) it would make a great addition to this team in my opinion.
    Show Hide
    This is the set i suggest. I prefer life orb over choice band for the ability to switch moves, as it is invaluable.

    Cinccino @ Life Orb
    Trait: Skill Link
    Evs: 4hp/ 252atk/ 252spd
    Jolly Nature

    ~ Tail Slap
    ~ Rock Blast
    ~ Bullet Seed
    ~ U-turn / Wake-Up Slap


    Take my suggestions with a grain of salt :D. Again, great team you have here and kudos for making Articuno work. Good luck with the team and i hope to see you on PS! more often. :)
  19. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Thunderblunder: Thanks for the suggestion! I'll probably try out the spread, perhaps removing Quick Claw for Life Orb in the process.

    Incon: How odd, since I've calculated that Rampardos KOs 212 HP Golem easily with Superpower, while it has a 98.86% minimum chance to KO 252 HP 4 Def Tank Carracosta assuming the more common ability Sturdy. Cacaturne still definitely beats Golem as well with just two hits from Bullet Seed. I also did have Cinccino before, though it was in place of Rampardos. It lacked the power to OHKO what I needed it to and I was walled by Probopass and Bastiodon. Spikes may not be a necessity, but Encore is a very valuable commodity. Without it, I have absolutely no answer to set up Pokemon. I sadly also become weak to Water-types (and Aqua Jet is pretty brutal).

    Thanks for the rates guys! It's very much appreciated. I've also put in the link to the threatlist in the OP and have listed the changes I have made to the team. Wow, this is the most work I've ever put into a RMT! A big thanks to Agent Dell for making the NU threat list (even though I did the pictures) and for sending me the updated version of it! :D
  20. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    Hi WhiteDMist. Obviously this is a brilliant team; I especially like how you've not used bog-standard NU Pokemon (like I have ;_;). My recommendations are small, but I hope you'll find them useful.

    A Rain Dance Ludicolo can unfortunately just OHKO all of your team members after Stealth Rock. I know that you can Sucker Punch it with Cacturne, but without a Life Orb unfortunately it's not close to a OHKO. To fix this issue I'd give Seismitoad a new EV spread: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe. This allows Seismitoad to always outspeed Modest max Speed Ludicolo and bring it down with Sludge Wave.

    Next you have a kinda bad weakness to Normal- and Flying-types (only Rotom-S can really handle them, as Rampardos will probably be gone early-game, and Rotom-S will quite quickly be worn down by Stealth Rock, should your opponent get it up). I know Rampardos can prevent SR from being set down early on, but unfortunately it's not a fail-safe strategy, as most opponents will do anything to set up SR when they see Articuno and Rotom-S without a spinner. I'm not going to recommend a spinner because 1) they suck, and 2) well, you do have Rampardos. However, to alleviate your weakness to Pokemon such as Swellow, Cinccino, Tauros (who can basically get a KO every time they come in), I'd suggest Klang.

    I really, really loathe saying this, but I'd replace it for Articuno. I know it's the Pokemon your team was based around, and I love how you're using the offensive (and original) set, but... I just can't help wondering how much it actually does for your team? I've tried it and Hurricane always, always missed for me (although you said you've not had that problem), but really it's that SR weakness that is holding it back. Klang covers Flying-types and Cinccino very well, and can also break through Amoonguss/Almomola when behind a Substitute, something that you said you use Articuno for. The lack of immediate power is frustrating, I give you that, but Klang can find plenty of setup opportunities if it comes in on a wall such as Amoonguss, or obviously things like Cinccino and Swellow. However, I perfectly understand if you're adverse to this recommendation.

    One possibility might be to replace Cacturne for Omanyte instead. Omanyte cheerfully covers all physical Flyin-types (Scarf braviary won't even 2HKO with Superpower), and it's able to handle Normal-types as well (just keep it away from LO Cinccino' Bullet Seed, even though it won't KO from full health, it'll still leave you crippled). Omanyte is however a lesser option, as you lose the Water-resistance and valuable priority that comes with Cacturne.

    Basically WhiteDMist, this is already an excellent team, the only change I proposed that I think you should definetly implement is the new EV spread on Seismitoad. I'll leave you to ponder over the other two.
  21. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Cherub Agent: Haha I kinda wish you didn't mention the EV spread since I actually changes it to that in secret. ;P

    You'd be surprised how long Rampardos lasts. After all, it isn't my ONLY anti-Stealth Rock Pokemon. I admit that Braviary is a pain to face, but the benefit is that Banded variants are commonly running Adamant meaning Articuno is able to revenge kill it. I know I lose a Pokemon in the process most likely, but that is the same with most powerful Pokemon my team has trouble with. :( That's the problem with offense I guess. As for replacing Articuno, I can always just build a second version of the team with Klang in place of Articuno and try that out. But I am not going to remove it from THIS particular team, as stubborn as I sound. (It's really the same story I have with Jesus' Regice idea). I really appreciate the rate, and the fact that I'm actually going to duplicate this team with Klang shows how smart your idea is. :heart:

    iiZqHD: I thank you for your rate (albeit rather short). This team was built to specifically handle as many Stealth Rock users in NU as quickly as possible to prevent Stealth Rocks from being set up. True, it isn't foolproof, but neither is Rapid Spinning. RU has a completely different set of hazard users, so there is NO way this team will work effectively in that tier. I also play somewhat more haphazardly with Articuno if Rocks do get set up, since I always have Haunter as my back-up sweeper. :pimp:
  22. Bigblue

    Bigblue

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    I focus on RU but I decided to look at this and I can't say whether is it good or bad but congratz on the success and LOL quick claw on cacturne!
  23. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Thanks! For now, I've been randomly switching Cacturne's item around. I've used Life Orb, Quick Claw, Focus Sash and King's Rock so far. I still have to try out Leftovers, Lum Berry, and a multitude of other items that may or may not be useful. It's not like Cacturne is that great at using any of them in the first place.

    Btw, Focus Sash has actually saved Cacturne from becoming a sacrifice against a Zangoose. :toast:
  24. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    Sorry I've been postponing this rate for a while; I haven't really found the time to make an actually decent rate, but I'm here now. Anyways, I have faced this team (my username was stronf. btw) and it carries a lot of offensive pressure (and uniqueness). The offensive pressure from pokemon such as Cacturne, Rotom-S and Rampardos really limits the opponent. My SRer, Carracosta, could not find any opportunities to set up without getting severely damaged since I needed it to check Articuno.

    I did notice that Gurdurr or other Fighting types can pose a pretty small threat as it can easily come in on Cacturne, and you lack any safe-switch ins. Gurdurr gets easily revenge killed by the likes of Haunter, Articuno, and Rotom-S but it can do some work with good prediction. Non-choiced Zebstrika aka LO Zebstrika or SubStrika can easily punch a huge hole in this team since it can come in on Rotom-S very easily or even Cacturne if it's using Sap Sipper. (I was actually using Sap Sipper Zebstrika the whole time, but it was great to see how great of a player you were by not risking the Motor Drive boosts). Articuno can tank a Thunderbolt luckily though and retaliate with Ice Beam or HP Ground. To remedy this weakness and the Raichu weakness, I would second the suggestion of Hidden Power Ground over Thunderbolt on Rotom-S. There are many times where Thunderbolt comes in handy but HP Ground will allow Rotom-S not to get walled by opposing Zebstrikas and Raichus. I don't suggest HP Ground over Shadow Ball on Haunter which is what I usually do because Shadow Ball is really important on your team in order to take on opposing Ghost-types such as Golurk or Misdreavus.

    Even though you have Sludge Wave on Seismitoad, Ludicolo can still pose a threat to your team in case Seismitoad dies early from random HP Grasses or other things of the sort. Since you're having trouble finding an item for Cacturne, I would recommend a Yache berry. I would also recommend a spread of 72 HP / 252 Attack / 184 Speed on Cacturne since it outspeeds max speed Adamant Golems. You will lose the speed tie against other max speed base 55s but max speed Exeggutor and max speed Golurk are extremely uncommon. The HP investment allows Cacturne to take a Rain-boosted Hydro Pump from Ludicolo 100% of the time. The Yache berry also allows Cacturne to take an Ice Beam which will allow Cacturne to get two Sucker Punches off or even a Bullet Seed. Cacturne can even get an Encore off or another layer of Spikes if need be. Yache Berry can also let Cacturne to take other Ice-type attacks such as Gorebyss' Ice Beams. As a matter of fact, Cacturne can even live a +2 Ice Beam from Gorebyss 25% of the time which can be extremely useful if Rotom-S has fainted. Yache berry is also more reliable than items such as Quick Claw or Kings Rock.

    From experience in our last battle, ScarfZard can actually prove very problematic. It can 3HKO Rotom-S with Fire Blast (this isn't counting Blaze or Solar Power boosts) which is your best check for it other than Cacturne's Sucker Punch which doesn't OHKO. It can revenge Seismitoad with HP Grass since it outspeeds Seismitoad even in rain. Rampardos can't reliably set up SRs and it won't like taking Focus Blast. Obviously, smart switches can easily defeat Charizard but it will always pose a threat because it gets free switch in every time with no SRs. In order to take on Charizard, and any other base 100 scarfer, I would recommend max speed on Seismitoad (again). It allows Seismitoad to outspeed base 100 scarfers by 2 points under Rain Dance, and you can still use Modest. The extra HP EVs aren't very important (feel free to prove me wrong with any calcs).

    I hoped this rate helped your team, and great job on the success with the team. It really is great how people can make successful teams with some underused pokemon. This uniqueness makes me love playing Pokemon and playing against you. Anyways good luck in the future, and you can hopefully create many more great teams.
  25. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist 40 more
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    Thanks Annoyer! :D I really appreciate your rate. I had no idea I was battling you (I'm horrible at identifying alts). If I don't know who you are, I tend not to pay attention too much. :/ Oddly enough, I DO remember facing you, even if I had no idea who you were (I think it was the name itself).

    I admit that Fighting-types can be really tricky, but you'd be surprised at what Articuno can live at full health. Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing SubStrika at all. Theoretically, any fast Electric-type with Substitute and good coverage can break through most of my team. That's why I try and kill them as quickly as possible. But in all honesty, Zebstrika is rather weak specially so I'm not TOO inclined to worry. HP Ground does present an interesting possibility like you and FLCL mentioned, but I hate getting locked into Hidden Power. Still, I rarely use Thunderbolt in any case, so I guess I'll give it a shot. (Rotom-S' power is a bit lackluster as well, since it took a Thunderbolt to break a Regigigas' Sub...barely).

    That Cacturne spread looks VERY interesting, and Yache Berry seems to be a good fit (though it may please you to know that I just put Focus Band on Ccacturne in my item testing). As for ScarfZard, it's true that it's difficult to switch into and handle. But remember when I mentioned in the OP that speed was very important to this team? Well I have found that most of my concerns come from anything with base 95 Speed or higher, since they outspeed Haunter who is my fastest non-Choiced Pokemon. So in general I have problems with powerful speedsters who can tank Rotom-S' attacks. I'll try out max Speed on Seismitoad as well (I'm not sure what I really live now that my investment is so low anyways, so might as well max speed out).

    I like using underused Pokes a lot. It makes me sad that I rarely get to use more than one of them at a time, but I feel this team makes up for that by bringing Articuno and Haunter some more limelight. While this team has done well on its own merits, I feel that someone with even better battling skills could take this team to the very top of the (sadly laughable) ladder...:heart:

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