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[Anything Goes] Groudon

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Funbot28, Apr 15, 2016.

  1. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    QC: / /
    GP: / /
    [OVERVIEW]

    • Primal Groudon is one of the most threatening and splashable Pokemon in the tier, thanks to its amazing ability to blanket check many common threats combined with its monstrous stats.
    • It also has an amazing Ground / Fire typing which gives Primal Groudon only 2 weaknesses and 5 resistances, letting it check against certain key threats in Klefki, Xerneas, and Steel Arceus.
    • Desolate Land is a excellent ability that grants Primal Groudon an immunity to Water-type attacks which allows it to check a major wallbreaker in Primal Kyogre.
    • Has a vast movepool which allows it to run a variety of sets such as support, offensive setup sweeper, and a bulky wall. It also has both powerful physical and special STAB moves to weaken down walls more efficiently.
    • Primal Groudon does have a low speed stat without any boosts and can be easily pressured by powerful special attackers such as Mewtwo, Mega Gengar, and Darkrai due to it lacking any immediate recovery moves.
    • It also has a glaring weakness to one of the most common offensive types in Ground-type, which can often limit what it can wall due to Earthquake being so prevalent.

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Precipice Blades / Earthquake
    move 3: Lava Plume / Stone Edge
    move 4: Roar / Thunder Wave / Dragon Tail
    item: Red Orb
    ability: Drought
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========
    • Stealth Rock enables Primal Groudon to support the team immensely, due to its ability to force switches so easily.
    • Precipice Blades is a powerful STAB move that allows Primal Groudon to 2HKO the majority of the metagame. Earthquake could be used as a more reliable alternative, although the slight decrease in power can be noticeable at times.
    • Lava Plume is another great STAB move that has a 30% chance to burn and has great power under Desolate Land, letting Primal Groudon weaken down walls and physical attackers more easily. Stone Edge could be used to hit certain threats such as Ho-Oh and Lugia, although Primal Groudon does not like to stay in against them most of the time.
    • Roar is used to phaze out setup sweepers such as Xerneas, Mega Rayquaza and, Arceus and is useful to rack up hazard damage. Thunder Wave could be used instead to cripple faster threats, which could help Primal Groudon deal with fearsome wallbreakers. Finally Dragon Tail can be used to phaze out Dragon-types who are immune to Ground-type attacks such as Latios, Mega Rayquaza, and Giratina-O.

    Set Details
    ========
    • These EVs are set in place to ensure that Primal Groudon can live a Focus Blast from a +2 Xerneas after Stealth Rocks and Spikes. It can also avoid the 2HKO from Primal Kyogre's Ice Beam, Arceus-Rock's Judgement, and Giratina-O's Shadow Force.
    • The Careful nature with extra EVs in Defense could also be used to let Primal Groudon face threats such as Xerneas and Primal Kyogre more proficiently, but lessens its ability to wall physical attackers.
    • A more offensive spread with an Adamant nature and an EV spread of 224 HP / 240 Atk / 32 SpD / 12 Spe can be used to let Primal Groudon become a more formal offensive threat. These EVs are set in place to allow Primal Groudon to OHKO Primal Kyogre with a Precipice Blades after Stealth Rocks, while still being able to live a boosted Focus Blast from Xerneas after Stealth Rocks.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • This Primal Groudon set could be used as a blanket check to many dangerous threats in the metagame, and can also support your team by setting up Stealth Rocks and crippling foes with Thunder Wave.
    • Do not try to rely on Primal Groudon to cover all these options as it can be heavily pressured and easily overwhelmed by certain Pokemon due to Primal Groudon not possessing immediate recovery, while being susceptible to all forms of hazards.
    • Lava Plume is a spammable move that could be used repeatedly due to its incredible chance of burning foes.
    • Also be weary of using Ground-type attacks if your opponent carries a Flying-type Pokemon or a Levitate user, due to them being perceived as immediate answers to Primal Groudon.

    Team Options
    ========
    • Primal Groudon does not appreciate Dragon-types that are immune to Ground-type attacks such as Mega Rayquaza and Giratina-O, with the ladder being able to remove hazards with Defog. Fairy-types such as Xerneas, Mega Diancie and Fairy Arceus could be used to compensate this weakness, while Primal Groudon can check Steel-types that could be troubling for them as well.
    • Flying-types such as Lugia and Yveltal can also be problematic to face as well. Klefki is a nice answer to both of them, as it can either setup Spikes or hax them to death with Swagger and Foul Play.
    • Ground Arceus is also a huge pain to Primal Groudon, as it can survive any attack it tries to throw at it. Pokemon such as Yveltal, Latios, Lugia, and Mega Rayquaza are all options that can help deal with Ground Arceus effectively.
    • Wish support can also be useful which can help recover Primal Groudon's HP passively so it can outlast certain checks more proficiently.

    [SET]
    name: Rock Polish
    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Precipice Blades
    move 3: Dragon Claw / Swords Dance
    move 4: Stone Edge / Fire Punch
    item: Red Orb
    ability: Drought
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 96 SpD / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========
    • Rock Polish helps Primal Groudon outspeed most of the metagame after one boost, which transforms it into a deadly sweeper through the end of the match.
    • Precipice Blades is the chosen STAB Ground-type move of choice, as the extra boost in power can help Primal Groudon deal more damage compared to Earthquake, albeit being less reliable.
    • Dragon Claw could be used to 2HKO Dragon-types that try to wall Primal Groudon such as Giratina-O and Mega Rayquaza. Swords Dance is an alternative that allows Primal Groudon to boost its Attack by two stages, which can help it deal with more defensive threats like Lugia and Water Arceus more easily.
    • Stone Edge is a coverage option to hit Flying-types like Ho-Oh and Yveltal, and is optimal to use in conjunction with Swords Dance. Fire Punch is a secondary STAB option that allows Primal Groudon to hit Steel-types such as Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and is boosted by the sun from Desolate Land.

    Set Details
    ========
    • The Speed EVs ensure that Primal Groudon outspeeds Choice Scarf base 90 Speed Pokemon after a Rock Polish boost, while the extra EVs in Special Defense and HP are used to let it survive a Focus Blast from a boosted Xerneas.
    • A bulkier spread of 248 HP / 152 Atk / 52 SpD / 56 Spe can be used in conjunction with Swords Dance to allow Primal Groudon more opportunities to setup.
    • More Speed EVs could be run to outspeed Choice Scarf users like Kyreum-W and Genesect.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • Primal Groudon can force out many Pokemon, it has many opportunities to setup a Rock Polish throughout the match.
    • Since this is a more offensive set, try not to let Primal Groudon check too many pokemon, as it could be left too weak to sweep through the end of the match.
    • Make sure Primal Groudon's check such as Mega Rayquaza and Ho-Oh are weakened down before attempting to sweep.

    Team Options
    ========
    • This set couples well with offensive Pokemon that weaken Primal Groudon's checks such as Lugia, defensive Primal Kyogre, and Ground Arceus.
    • Darkrai is an amazing option, as it can outspeed and put to sleep all of Primal Groudon's checks, which can help it setup later on during the match.
    • Powerful wallbreakers such as Mega Rayquaza and Ho-Oh can weaken down walls like Lugia, helping Primal Groudon dismantle the opposing team freely.
    • Stealth Rock support is important to chip Flying-type Pokemon and Focus Sash abusers such as Darkrai and Smeargle. Good setters include Dialga and all the Deoxys formes as the former can reliable check Mega Rayquaza and the ladder can easily fit on more offensive teams.

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance + Thunder Wave
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Thunder Wave
    move 3: Precipice Blades
    move 4: Rock Slide / Stone Edge
    item: Red Orb
    ability: Drought
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 196 Atk / 48 SpD / 12 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========
    • Swords Dance boosts Primal Groudon's Attack to dangerous levels, letting it able to break through many bulky walls in the meta.
    • Thunder Wave is a great utility move that can paralyzes foes on the switchin, which allows Primal Groudon to setup more easily on some of its most common checks in Water Arceus, Lugia, and Latios.
    • Precipice Blades acts as its main Ground-type STAB move, as it grants Primal Groudon the opportunity to OHKO many neutral targets after one boost.
    • Rock Slide is a great coverage move that lets Primal Groudon to hit Ground-type immune Pokemon such as Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Giratina-O. Stone Edge is a more powerful alternative, although the decrease in accuracy can be unfavorable at times.
    • Fire Punch can be used as a secondary STAB move, but the lack of coverage it has with Precipice Blades is quite noticeable and often avoided.

    Set Details
    ========
    • The HP and Special Defense EVs allows Primal Groudon to survive a Focus Blast from a +2 Xerneas after Stealth Rocks damage. 12 EVs were added in Speed as it allows it to outspeed maximum Speed Diancie before it Mega Evolves. The remaining EVs were added into Attavk with the Adamant nature to maximize its power output.
    • The Jolly nature can be used instead as it allows Primal Groudon to outspeed base 70 Speed Pokemon.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • This Primal Groudon set should be used more early on within the game, as it should try to status its checks and counters before it starts setting up.
    • Try to setup on Fairy- and Steel-types as they cannot hurt Primal Groudon too much with their STAB attacks, in which it can take this opportunity to status the likely switchin such as Lugia, Giratina-O, or Mega Rayquaza.
    • Do not spam Thunder Wave too often if your oppoenent has a Ground-type such as Ground Arceus or a Primal Groudon of their own, as the lack of momentum can be detrimental later on.
    Team Options
    ========
    • Stealth Rock setters such as Dialga, Mega Diancie, Deoxys-S, and Ferrothorn are good teammates to have, as the hazards can weaken opposing Pokemon which grants Primal Groudon the certain OHKO on certain mons such as Water Arceus and Lugia after a Swords Dance boost.
    • Other setup sweepers like Geomancy Xerneas, Swords Dance Mega Rayquaza, and Extreme Killer Arceus all contain the potential to sweep after Primal Groudon weakens their appropriate checks.
    • Primal Groudon also gets checked by a multitude of Pokemon such as Latios, Ho-Oh, Mega Rayquaza, and Giratina-O if it decides to run Fire Punch. Partners such as Mega Diancie, Rock Arceus, and Klefki are all options to deal with the aforementioned Pokemon in this case.
    • Primal Groudon can also be weaken quite a bit, thus Healing Wish supporters such as Latias and Shaymin-S can heal it to max health, in order to give it the chance to sweep again.
    [SET]
    name: Lum Berry
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: Roar / Dragon Tail
    item: Lum Berry
    ability: Drought
    nature: Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========
    • Earthquake is Groudon's main STAB move that allows it to hit to dent most neutral targets even without the Attack investment.
    • Stealth Rock is an invaluable move that grants Groudon the ability to net residual damage on opposing incoming Pokemon.
    • Thunder Wave lets Groudon to cripple fast wallbreakers that tend to come in on it such as Latios, Darkrai, and Ho-Oh.
    • Roar allows Groudon to phaze out setup sweepers can hurt the enemy team in conjunction with the residual damage from Stealth Rock. Dragon Tail is another phazign option that does not get blocked by Taunt, however does not force out a Pokemon behind a Substitute.
    Set Details
    ========
    • The Evs are implemented in HP and Defense to turn Groudon into a bulky tank that can survive powerful physical attacks from the likes of Mega Rayquaza and Mega Mewtwo-X. While 12 EVs are added in the Speed stat to allow Groudon to outspeed Mega Diancie before it mega evolves.
    • Lum Berry was given as an item to allow Groudon to check status spreaders such as Klefki, Darkrai, and Ho-Oh for one turn.
    Usage Tips
    ========
    • This Groudon set is mostly used to check Swagger Klefki and be able to OHKo it in return. However, you can also sleep inducers such as Darkrai, and be able to suprise them with an attack.
    • Do not try an switch in Groudon on powerful special attackers, as its lack in special bulk can leave it being 2HKOed or even OHKOed at times.
    • Be weary of Flying-types such as Mega Rayquaza and Lugia, as they can often abuse Groudon's lack of options to hit them besides it phazing them out.
    Team Options
    ========
    • Regular Groudon has a hard time dealing with Water-types without the ability Desolate Land that its Primal counterpart contains. This means Pokemon like Kyogre become much more threatening and appropriate checks such as Latios and Mega Rayquaza may be necessary.
    • Wallbreakers that can abuse the sun from Drought and the hazard support from Stealth Rock such as Mega Blaziken and Ho-Oh also may be beneficial partners to Groudon, as they tend to sweep much more easier.
    • Special Walls such as Clefable may also be useful to cover Groudon's low Special Defense and can provide Wish support as well to preserve Groudon's health.
    [STRATEGY COMMENTS]
    Other Options
    =============
    • Rest is a viable move on bulky Primal Groudon sets, as it is its only tool for recovery. However, the drawback of wasting two turns asleep can be crucial as your opponent is given the opportunity to setup or weaken Primal Groudon again.
    • Overheat can also be used as a Special STAB option to reliably OHKO physical walls such as Skarmory, although it lowers Primal Groudon's Special Attack by two stages after one use, which may force it to switchout as a result.
    • Rock Tomb can be used as a niche coverage move that can lower the Speed of incoming wallbreakers such as Latios and offensive Arceus formes on the switchin, but the low BP of the move leaves much to be desired.


    Checks and Counters
    ===================

    **Lugia**: Lugia can live most of Primal Groudon's non-boosted attack due to its massive bulk and can proceed to Toxic stall it to death thanks to Multiscale and Roost. Although, Lugia takes large amounts of damage from Stone Edge if Multiscale is not active.

    **Ground-immune Dragon-types**: Pokemon such as Mega Rayquaza, Giratina-O, and Latios all resist both of Primal Groudon's STAB options and can break through it with their powerful attacks. However, Primal Groudon can run Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail as a coverage move to hit these threats as well.

    **Ground Arceus**: Ground Arceus can live any attack from Primal Groudon and can OHKO it with its own STAB Ground-type moves. Recover can help it stall out Primal Groudon, but the burn status from Lava Plume can cripple Ground Arceus, especially the physical sets.

    **Water Arceus**: Water Arceus resists Fire-type attacks and can avoid the 2HKO from Precipice Blades. It can then Toxic stall Primal Groudon, however it does get beaten by Swords Dance variants.

    **Primal Kyogre**: Primal Kyogre can overwrite Desolate Land with Primordial Sea and can threaten to OHKO Primal Groudon with its Water-type moves. However, it does not appreciate switching in on Primal Groudon's STAB Ground-type attacks.

    **Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh can check Primal Groudon variants that do not decide to run Rock-type coverage moves, and can 2HKO it with Earthquake. Ho-Oh also benefits from not being weakened by burns from Lava Plume, although Stone Edge is a popular choice on Primal Groudon so switching it in becomes a risk in most cases.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    Just wanna say I am almost done and srry for long await.

    P.S Megazard Zangooser Are these the only 3 main sets I include?
  3. baconbagon

    baconbagon free stabmons
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    eh calling the sets sweepers seems odd, sets are named "Swords Dance" instead of "Swords Dance Sweeper" and similar. also paradancer pdon is more of a wallbreaker than a sweeper if anything
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  4. Chloe.

    Chloe.
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    We've decided on this set for regular Groudon.

    name: Lum Berry? Idk
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Stealth Rock
    move 3: Thunder Wave
    move 4: Roar / Dragon Tail
    item: Lum Berry
    ability: Drought
    nature: Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe

    EVs are just max bulk with 12 spe to outspeed Dianc pre mega.
    Otherwise, I hope everything else is self explanatory.
  5. Quantum Tesseract

    Quantum Tesseract Imasugu
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    If it has the red orb, how is it regular Groudon?
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  6. Chloe.

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    Oh fuck, fixed
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  7. baconbagon

    baconbagon free stabmons
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    call the set Defensive or Physically Defensive imo. lum doesn't describe its niche well enough and it could be running lefties or something anyway
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  8. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    Ok will get on this as soon as I can, been busy with finals and such
  9. wishes

    wishes la petite mort
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  10. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    Shit sorry totally forgot about this lol will get to it :)
  11. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    Finally finished and ready for QC :)
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  12. Quantum Tesseract

    Quantum Tesseract Imasugu
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    AM QC check
    I dislike the use of the word perfect here. It is mostly just preference, but that's innacurace and probably should be swapped out for excellent or amazing.
    Something about lum or at least non-primal sets would be nice- you have it included in the analysis but I wouldn't know it from the overview.
    Contend against is misleading here, as it in fact solidly takes them on. Saying check is more descriptive and useful.
    Say something about the tradeoff in power between blades and eq, like how PBlades 2hko's Xern.

    2 layers of spikes- this leads them to assume its either 1 or 3, niether of which is accurate.
    Mention that impish should be run if you arent using lava plume

    Something about lava plume being its most spammable move to punish switches witha burn chance.
    Mention keeping it healthy to take on xerneas if they have one
    More GP than QC, but all the coulds are more distracting than helpful
    Something about hazard removal would be useful here.
    Incluse something to take on MRay as it easily defeats Primal Groudons that lack dragon tail
    Explain about using swords dance vs stall, rock polish vs offense. It's fairly obvious, but important to note.

    Only Deoxys-S and A are really usable; A usually isn't a hazard lead. Probably include other setters as well like supportceus and other PDon.
    Definitely mention cleaners like Ekiller who appreciate PDon's wallbreaking
    Mention that if you lack dragon claw something to take on MRay is absolutely required.

    Write how Thunder Wave negates the foes' speed stat and lets PDon/Teammates sweep
    Mention how rock slide+twave lets you decrease the chance of your opponent getting to move
    Talk about what Stone Edge does over rock slide- Defat Lugia after SR, beat Yveltal far more reliably, and an increased crit chance

    Remove Jolly- there are exactly 0 relevant base 70's bar skarmory, who never invests in speed
    If you have any alternate spreads, mention them since this is pretty sparce. i haven't experimented beyond the standard here, but there are probably a few other options- off the top of my head, adding a bit of defense to live two dragon ascents.

    Include supportceus that think they wall you on things to set up on.
    Mention how you should ue it early game to break holes in cores rather than going for a sweep

    Klefki is a good teammate for other reasons as well such as spikes support hurting switches, more thunder waves being nice, and swagger generating free turn in exchange for pressuring bulky walls, defoggers, and magic bouncers.
    Mention Jirachi over Latias as healing wish mons- it's more relevant.
    Fairy types are worthy of a team slot of their own as they take on yveltal, dragons, and in the case of xern/diancie Darkrai.

    I can't comment on the rest, but remove mega blaziken. It isn't even remotely viable. If sun support is worth mentioning, leave it at Ho-Oh.
    Fire Blast absolutely deserves mention here, as it nukes switchins and is generally better than overheat. It isn't main set worthy, but its better than any of the other OO's
    Add Mega Rayquaza (waterfall, surf, setting up), Dragon arceus (possibly put in the same spot as water), quagsire, and yveltal.


    General Notes: Stop mentioning Lati@s, and start mentioning supportceus.
    Last edited: May 29, 2016
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  13. wishes

    wishes la petite mort
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  14. Megazard

    Megazard Practically Useless
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    Lots and lots of stuff to get to, so I'll reply to this in bold and then look at tesseract's AM QC separately. General note- the content is atrociously low, aside from any issues it's missing so many descriptions and details. I know it's 4 sets but if you don't have the time to do it then don't take the analysis.
    Definitely not stamping yet with all of this, let me know when implemented

    Also pretty much everything by Quantum Tesseract is good to implement, I mostly skimmed but apart from mentioning random other sets in set details without asking anyone and mentioning quagsire in c&c it all looks good. The issue mostly stems from what isn't addressed, but what is all seems totally reasonable
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  15. wishes

    wishes la petite mort
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  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
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    Sorry have been soo busy with final exams, will start editing it tommorow.
  17. wishes

    wishes la petite mort
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    Funbot28

    Last edited: Yesterday at 6:55 PM

    Since you're working on it, I'm giving you a 24 hours extension. Otherwise, that's the final cut and I'm reassigning it.
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  18. wishes

    wishes la petite mort
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    I will update the results of this thread by tomorrow. I need to talk to Funbot and AG QC. Thank you.
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  19. wishes

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