Anything Goes Resources

[HunterStorm]

Megazard, as opposed to Chansey, Blissey is far inferior defensively and a little inferior sp defensively. Although, if I were going for one of these against the current ladder, it'd be Blissey (flowre, ahuehuehue and a couple others still run mgar)
In any other situation, Blissey's weak defense is just not worth it and often turns out to be fodder for a setup. Unless you are very, very confident about your defense in a ladder that is filled with physically offensive spam, it just is a liability. If you're going for that playstyle, you need chansey (maybe with a pursuit trapper if you're concerned about mgar)
On that note, mega sab is wayyyy more viable than Aegi under any circumstance. So is normal don, skarm, bronzong or dialga. I'd even put shaymin sky higher than Aegi, considering it can be worked pretty well with defensive support. Aegi just has no answer at all for 3 of the most viable mons in the meta (E killers, Mray and P don). There are better mons to use if you want to check Xern.

 

[Josh]

hi lol

why the hell isnt darkrai s?

ill post an explanation if really needed, but i think its self explanatory and anyone who has played ag recently knows how broken it is rofl

 

[The Gunner]

hi lol

why the hell isnt darkrai s?

ill post an explanation if really needed, but i think its self explanatory and anyone who has played ag recently knows how broken it is rofl

it's broken but it's inconsistent
it relies on sleep turns & hitting dark void
there's no guarantee if it's going to kill all the mons or no mons on an opposing team
theoretically, it's the best mon in AG, but practically, it doesn't live up to that status

 

[hexandwhy]

it's broken but it's inconsistent
it relies on sleep turns & hitting dark void
there's no guarantee if it's going to kill all the mons or no mons on an opposing team
theoretically, it's the best mon in AG, but practically, it doesn't live up to that status

How is that different from Klefki?

 

[Chloe]

Genesect.
Quite an overlooked mon within the Anything Goes metagame due to its fragility, weakish stats and poor offensive typing. Genesect however has quite a great niche in two of its attacks. These are U-turn and Bug Buzz.

U-turn
U-turn is an above average move within standard competitive play. Scouting out your opponents turn can be a wonderful advantage to have, and this is usually seen throughout correct usage of the mon. One may ask, why Genesect? U-turn has god awful distribution among uber mons which make a common appearance within the AG Metagame. The only other notable U-turner labelled Ubers is Yveltal, which struggles to run fast physically offensive sets due to its physical movepool only benefiting from being a slow EKiller Arceus check. Scarf Genesect reaches an appropriate speed tier which allows it to outspeed common AG threats Darkrai and Mewtwo with minimal investment. The swift U-turn on these mons allows for an ease of pressure on other teammates when looking at these mons.

The main problem with checking Darkrai is that its common strategy is to set up Substitute in the turn following Dark Void, allowing it to take on whatever comes at it. U-turning out isn't an optimal play if Darkrai is planning to sleep whatever comes in. This is a major problem among many checks for Darkrai. One of the Balanced playstyle's best checks for Darkrai is Sleep Talk Ho-Oh which can be controlled by constant clicking of Substitute. Evidently, U-turn isn't a great play if they have a Substitute up, but this is usually not the case hence the following move:

Bug Buzz
Bug Buzz is a very underrated move within Genesect's movepool, allowing it to check one of the most deadly if not the most deadly threat within the metagame right now. Due to Substitute Darkrai's ability to essentially beat all its other checks 1v1 with the right set, Genesect allows perfection through this move which goes through substitute and kills the pain in the ass we know as Darkrai. Darkrai can't possibly put this thing to sleep unless they're gutsy and use Void twice in a row (which you should be able to predict based on your opponents skill level). Bug Buzz is the perfect check for SubRai, OHKOing every set if EV trained correctly.

Genesect's Other Arsenal
Genesect's ability Download only makes the checking of other mons, and the enabling of forced switch outs possible, with a boost to a foe's weaker Defense. A 120 Base Atk mon sounds decent already, then give it a +1 boost on switchin.

Its massive speed allows it to outspeed standard +2 GeoXern and live a Moonblast effectively. This allows Genesect to pick up the 2HKO if your team's Xerneas check is down and you're desperate.

Iron Head's massive flinching potential will occur every single game. Trust me. If there's a chance to flinch, it will flinch.

ExtremeSpeed is an excellent move if in need of priority. Outspeeding the not so common Bullet Punch Scizor but allowing the 1v1 win against Xern if a fast GeoXern set is used.

Explosion allows a hole deal of novelty I won't get into. I would honestly advise against blowing up this thing when the Iron Head flinch is inevitable.

Ice Beam allows a great amount of coverage, allowing Genesect to hit the likes of Mega Rayquaza and enabling the 2HKO

Some Calcs

252 SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 248 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 470-554 (137.8 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You can afford to run a +SpA nature over Naive, as the excess speed isn't useful at all.

Now why the hell are you making a huge spiel about Genesect?
It honestly deserves to stay at B.
-Its ability to check Darkrai so well
-Its immense pivoting abilities
-Its use on TrapTurn style teams
-Its ability to outspeed standard +2 GeoXern when equiped with a scarf
All these points and the many others above demonstrate why it should keep its already deflated rank of B.

 

[HunterStorm]

How is that different from Klefki?

And klefki is S rank...
Tbh, darkrai is much more of a threat than klefki is. While klefki can be easily walled(magic bouncers, rocky helmet users, lumceus with magic coat, chansey/blissey, rest users, multiple switching between dark/fairy types, sub users) , darkrai is probably the only mon in the entire game there is no decent switch in for, and that is saying something. You could argue that scarfed sleep talk xern/magic coat lum ceus does a good job, but try doing that against a legit player and he'll throw a sub on before going for void.
The only reason I see klefki being better than rai is void's accuracy. That being said, swagger chokes/misses could end up having your team sweeped. So an S rank for darkrai is very much arguable, imo.

 

[hexandwhy]

And klefki is S rank...
Tbh, darkrai is much more of a threat than klefki is. While klefki can be easily walled(magic bouncers, rocky helmet users, lumceus with magic coat, chansey/blissey, rest users, multiple switching between dark/fairy types, sub users) , darkrai is probably the only mon in the entire game there is no decent switch in for, and that is saying something. You could argue that scarfed sleep talk xern/magic coat lum ceus does a good job, but try doing that against a legit player and he'll throw a sub on before going for void.
The only reason I see klefki being better than rai is void's accuracy. That being said, swagger chokes/misses could end up having your team sweeped. So an S rank for darkrai is very much arguable, imo.

Even though I didn't explain it that well, that was my point. In fact, Darkrai has LESS checks, and relies LESS on hax, I'm pretty sure.

 

[DoW]

And klefki is S rank...
Tbh, darkrai is much more of a threat than klefki is. While klefki can be easily walled(magic bouncers, rocky helmet users, lumceus with magic coat, chansey/blissey, rest users, multiple switching between dark/fairy types, sub users) , darkrai is probably the only mon in the entire game there is no decent switch in for, and that is saying something. You could argue that scarfed sleep talk xern/magic coat lum ceus does a good job, but try doing that against a legit player and he'll throw a sub on before going for void.
The only reason I see klefki being better than rai is void's accuracy. That being said, swagger chokes/misses could end up having your team sweeped. So an S rank for darkrai is very much arguable, imo.

The main thing I see Klefki having over Darkrai is its typing and ability to tank hits like Espeed far more easily. It's one of a few mons that can happily tank M-Ray's Dragon Ascent, meaning that if Ray predicts wrong or Klef has Magnet Rise, it's suddenly got a lot of opportunities. Darkrai can do far less 1v1 against a mega ray or ekiller, given they usually run Lum.
Honestly, I don't see why Klefki is as high a rank as it is. As I mentioned before, Lum is pretty much standard on any physical attacker that can both use it and is threatened by burn, and while it's nice to be able to check Xern there's plenty of mons that do that perfectly well. In terms of checking both physical attackers and Xern and at the same time spreading para throughout the opponent's team and potentially setting hazards, my first choice by a long shot by would be p-don over keys. Klef can be used, but relying on hax isn't exactly great at the best of times and a good player will almost always be able to play so that the odds are in their favour.

 

[hexandwhy]

The main thing I see Klefki having over Darkrai is its typing and ability to tank hits like Espeed far more easily. It's one of a few mons that can happily tank M-Ray's Dragon Ascent, meaning that if Ray predicts wrong or Klef has Magnet Rise, it's suddenly got a lot of opportunities. Darkrai can do far less 1v1 against a mega ray or ekiller, given they usually run Lum.
Honestly, I don't see why Klefki is as high a rank as it is. As I mentioned before, Lum is pretty much standard on any physical attacker that can both use it and is threatened by burn, and while it's nice to be able to check Xern there's plenty of mons that do that perfectly well. In terms of checking both physical attackers and Xern and at the same time spreading para throughout the opponent's team and potentially setting hazards, my first choice by a long shot by would be p-don over keys. Klef can be used, but relying on hax isn't exactly great at the best of times and a good player will almost always be able to play so that the odds are in their favour.

But the thing is.. Nobody tries to set up their Darkrai on a Lum Pokemon. Darkrai goes in on something without Lum and uses Dark Void. If there is M-Diancie on the opposing team, you either predict a switch and use Substitute, or stay in and use Dark Void. If the opponent has a Lum Pokemon and switches in, they lose their Lum Berry on the switch in, or have to deal with a Darkrai that already set up a substitute. That means that Darkrai should have 100% health, or 87.5% after using substitute and leftovers recovery. That's enough HP to live a non-boosted E-speed. For the Darkrai, all it has to do is to predict the Magic Coat and use Substitute, or to predict the E-speed and go for Dark Void. Heck, if it has over 80% health, it can take E-speed, go for substitute, and use Dark Void next turn. Darkrai has almost unlimited set up opportunity, as long as Dark Void doesn't miss, or the opponent is using 6 mons with Lum Berry.

 

[DoW]

But the thing is.. Nobody tries to set up their Darkrai on a Lum Pokemon. Darkrai goes in on something without Lum and uses Dark Void. If there is M-Diancie on the opposing team, you either predict a switch and use Substitute, or stay in and use Dark Void. If the opponent has a Lum Pokemon and switches in, they lose their Lum Berry on the switch in, or have to deal with a Darkrai that already set up a substitute. That means that Darkrai should have 100% health, or 87.5% after using substitute and leftovers recovery. That's enough HP to live a non-boosted E-speed. For the Darkrai, all it has to do is to predict the Magic Coat and use Substitute, or to predict the E-speed and go for Dark Void. Heck, if it has over 80% health, it can take E-speed, go for substitute, and use Dark Void next turn. Darkrai has almost unlimited set up opportunity, as long as Dark Void doesn't miss, or the opponent is using 6 mons with Lum Berry.

I'm not saying that Darkrai would do that, I'm just trying to highlight how klefki can be more useful than Darkrai in some ways (in that it can be used to tank hits that Darkrai wouldn't). Yes, darkrai is a good mon, however klefki can be used more easily against things like Ekiller due to being able to come in on it more easily, and pretty much every team will have at least one strong Darkrai check which can make it even harder to use well.

 

[hexandwhy]

I'm not saying that Darkrai would do that, I'm just trying to highlight how klefki can be more useful than Darkrai in some ways (in that it can be used to tank hits that Darkrai wouldn't). Yes, darkrai is a good mon, however klefki can be used more easily against things like Ekiller due to being able to come in on it more easily, and pretty much every team will have at least one strong Darkrai check which can make it even harder to use well.

First of all, what is a good Darkrai check? Scarf Xerneas with Sleep Talk? Primal Kyogre with Sleep Talk? And how does Magnet Rise Klefki even threaten E-killer? E-Killer set up SD, Klefki comes in, it uses Magnet Rise, Arceus uses Earthquake... And Arceus just switches out... Also,
+2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 94-111 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. This thing won't be able to tank Arceus, once the opponent realizes that this Klefki knows Magnet Rise, and right out goes for E-speed the next time it sets up. Considering the Klefki predicts Earthquake and goes for Magnet Rise, it would take a hit from E-speed on turn 1. Use a status move on turn 2, which would be consumed by Lum and get hit by another E-speed, and take the third hit on the next turn, where it could get KO'd, depending on the damage it previously sustained. Sure, it could use Foul Play,
+2 0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 168-198 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO, but it also risks the chance of getting hit by Earthquake on the same turn. Arceus can pretty much afford to switch in and out, but Klefki can't. I don't see how Klefki is more useful against Arceus, or Rayquaza, than Darkrai.

 

[MZ]

Ok I'm answering like everything so imma break it up so this makes more sense

First of all, what is a good Darkrai check? Scarf Xerneas with Sleep Talk? Primal Kyogre with Sleep Talk?

Yes. Those are. Also Diancie and anything with Lum and Ho-oh. I'm not sure what this point is supposed to say. Darkrai has quite a few checks

And how does Magnet Rise Klefki even threaten E-killer? E-Killer set up SD, Klefki comes in, it uses Magnet Rise, Arceus uses Earthquake... And Arceus just switches out...

This is a plus for Klefki. That's like saying "how does talonflame threaten serperior? It comes in, takes the Leaf Storm, and Serperior goes to Tyranitar on the Brave Bird anyway". That's the whole point of a check. Magnet Rise is useful on keys and lets it check EQ Arc/Megaray

Also,
+2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 94-111 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. This thing won't be able to tank Arceus, once the opponent realizes that this Klefki knows Magnet Rise, and right out goes for E-speed the next time it sets up. Considering the Klefki predicts Earthquake and goes for Magnet Rise, it would take a hit from E-speed on turn 1. Use a status move on turn 2, which would be consumed by Lum and get hit by another E-speed, and take the third hit on the next turn, where it could get KO'd, depending on the damage it previously sustained. Sure, it could use Foul Play,
+2 0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 168-198 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO, but it also risks the chance of getting hit by Earthquake on the same turn.

This is a lot of theoretical stuff. Yes, Arceus can wear down keys, but even in this scenario you're forcing it out multiple times while your team has the opportunity to get stuff done. Maybe Arc can wear it down eventually, but it sounds like Klefki did its job. Plus the opposing side has to switch into foul play or Twave, not many mons want to take both, so it's not like keys cant be annoying. This is a totally regular scenario you're randomly calling poor for keys.

Arceus can pretty much afford to switch in and out, but Klefki can't.

Double switch? Plus keys can fire off free Twave/Foul Play/Spikes as mentioned earlier

I don't see how Klefki is more useful against Arceus, or Rayquaza, than Darkrai.

Keys isn't an amazing Ekiller check. However, how on earth are Darkrai and Megaray great checks when you have +2 Espeeds doing a shit ton to them? I mean lum Ekiller easily takes out non-FB Darkrai variants (I really havent seen much FB when it has so many things it wants to run already) and as for Megaray
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 320-378 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 246-291 (70 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Magnet Rise keys is the only one which can come in on +2 arc once it's gotten a kill and force it out. This is a specific and fairly irrelevant scenario, but point goes to keys

My issue with Darkrai to S is that it's really shaky. You have lum and magic bounce and magic coat flying around everywhere and plenty of good checks and bulky things. And while Darkrai is good, with this random status preparation flying around on every mon it can just lose effectiveness in some games. In addition, most of the things that you can use to patch up your darkrai weakness are easy top tier Pokemon that come with little opportunity cost like Xerneas or Ho-oh. I don't doubt that it's a top A+, but it really doesnt feel on the level of Xern or Arceus.
Now does that sound a lot like Klefki? Yes. In fact I really wouldnt be against a drop to A+ either. It can bullshit its way through entire teams but a lot of its checks are easy to slap on and it can often be stalled around by switching back and forth. Klefki is more of an S rank though because of how seriously it affects the meta. It's a huge defining force that's the main reason you're prepared for confusion and paralysis on everything, not darkrai. Support spiking sets are also seriously underrated, double team is bullshit too. And you cant just outrun keys like you can darkrai, unless you're in a really bad spot versus sub void darkrai you're likely going to be able to handle it with Mewtwo/MMX/Deo-A/MGengar/Scarfers/Skymin.

I hope this wasn't too stupid since I'm tired asf, don't particularly like my darkrai+keys paragraphs right now but ideally they get the message across.

Also Zangooser pineco outclasses aron so at least replace aron with it. or rank probopass because they do the same thing. or do the reasonable thing and unrank aron. But Pineco is not getting fair treatment here. Also what happened to mega sableye rising? That was discussed and then never implemented or given a reason why it wasn't. Not to mention all the noms I'm quoting below, we had an active VR for once but council hasn't updated in like forever. The really important ones are the sableye rise and MEGAMENCE IN D RANK HELLO MEGARAY EXISTS

So I planned to make a big post a bit farther into the mini tour but might as well throw it out while the discussion is on. A lot of these rankings were somewhat preliminary until these mons got more testing (like 4 people actually contributed to these), and after seeing/building/testing around this mini tour I have a lot more noms. Feel free to disagree with all of these seeing as they're just my take and some are definitely more controversial. TEXT WALL GO

Genesect can drop to C+ or C, I think C- is a bit harsh mostly because being a nice scarfer + explosion to cripple things is surprisingly useful, even if you do have to sack it for it to be useful
I think Aegislash is really shit, ik other people like it but I'd much rather see it in B- or something, reliance on toxic and general passiveness and mediocrity makes this so lame. I also honestly wouldnt mind Mega Sableye in B+, magic bounce and foul play+wisp spam make this incredibly annoying to play around
Megamence can drop to C or something, probably lower. Offensive sets are obviously outclassed, defensive sets just aren't that good. The best thing it can do might be Gunner's Iron Defense BS, it's just so lame. Also it doesnt set up on don like it does in ubers with roar and crippling moves so common, and beating Ekiller isn't as nice when you can just run another one
I see some merit in Garchomp unlike obviously total shit things like Aron that shouldn't be ranked but unless gooser can show something why it should be used over groundceus/don/lando-t etc then this should be going to D or unranked
Oh and speaking of aron it's the eternal reminder to unrank this it's worse than numel and outclassed by pineco
Regular Groudon is ranked so high because "lum helps vs keys" and "not weak to groundceus" but honestly that shouldnt give it the same rank as things with much more clearly defined and solid niches like the almost B- bronzong, Ttar, etc. Can we drop this to at least C?
Skarmory is pretty cool, nobody runs thunder anymore because people underuse primal ogre and I wanna see this in B, spikes are v good, walling Ekiller is v good, etc, not too certain about this one though bc things like V-create ray and hooh fodder but some discussion would be nice
Arceus Poison is a really nice utility mon, SR 3 attacks is pretty nice, wisp or defog or SD can be filler too, more geoxern checks are never bad and this should not be hanging around regular rayquaza

then for some more tentative noms that some discussion on might be nice, dropping Palkia to C+ and bumping arc dragon to C might be nice. Also Jirachi is C-, not quite sure why and idk if any other council is, so if somebody's used and wants to suggest a different rank that would be chill

I'm still testing more stuff too, people should get out there and try this stuff that's been just sitting forgotten, ranked because of theoretical niches or their places on ubers VR. UNFREE ARON

 

[hexandwhy]

Ok I'm answering like everything so imma break it up so this makes more sense

Yes. Those are. Also Diancie and anything with Lum and Ho-oh. I'm not sure what this point is supposed to say. Darkrai has quite a few checks


This is a plus for Klefki. That's like saying "how does talonflame threaten serperior? It comes in, takes the Leaf Storm, and Serperior goes to Tyranitar on the Brave Bird anyway". That's the whole point of a check. Magnet Rise is useful on keys and lets it check EQ Arc/Megaray


This is a lot of theoretical stuff. Yes, Arceus can wear down keys, but even in this scenario you're forcing it out multiple times while your team has the opportunity to get stuff done. Maybe Arc can wear it down eventually, but it sounds like Klefki did its job. Plus the opposing side has to switch into foul play or Twave, not many mons want to take both, so it's not like keys cant be annoying. This is a totally regular scenario you're randomly calling poor for keys.


Double switch? Plus keys can fire off free Twave/Foul Play/Spikes as mentioned earlier


Keys isn't an amazing Ekiller check. However, how on earth are Darkrai and Megaray great checks when you have +2 Espeeds doing a shit ton to them? I mean lum Ekiller easily takes out non-FB Darkrai variants (I really havent seen much FB when it has so many things it wants to run already) and as for Megaray
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 320-378 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 246-291 (70 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Magnet Rise keys is the only one which can come in on +2 arc once it's gotten a kill and force it out. This is a specific and fairly irrelevant scenario, but point goes to keys

My issue with Darkrai to S is that it's really shaky. You have lum and magic bounce and magic coat flying around everywhere and plenty of good checks and bulky things. And while Darkrai is good, with this random status preparation flying around on every mon it can just lose effectiveness in some games. In addition, most of the things that you can use to patch up your darkrai weakness are easy top tier Pokemon that come with little opportunity cost like Xerneas or Ho-oh. I don't doubt that it's a top A+, but it really doesnt feel on the level of Xern or Arceus.
Now does that sound a lot like Klefki? Yes. In fact I really wouldnt be against a drop to A+ either. It can bullshit its way through entire teams but a lot of its checks are easy to slap on and it can often be stalled around by switching back and forth. Klefki is more of an S rank though because of how seriously it affects the meta. It's a huge defining force that's the main reason you're prepared for confusion and paralysis on everything, not darkrai. Support spiking sets are also seriously underrated, double team is bullshit too. And you cant just outrun keys like you can darkrai, unless you're in a really bad spot versus sub void darkrai you're likely going to be able to handle it with Mewtwo/MMX/Deo-A/MGengar/Scarfers/Skymin.

I hope this wasn't too stupid since I'm tired asf, don't particularly like my darkrai+keys paragraphs right now but ideally they get the message across.

Also Zangooser pineco outclasses aron so at least replace aron with it. or rank probopass because they do the same thing. or do the reasonable thing and unrank aron. But Pineco is not getting fair treatment here. Also what happened to mega sableye rising? That was discussed and then never implemented or given a reason why it wasn't. Not to mention all the noms I'm quoting below, we had an active VR for once but council hasn't updated in like forever. The really important ones are the sableye rise and MEGAMENCE IN D RANK HELLO MEGARAY EXISTS

Sorry, for the first part, I meant to state that not every team has a check, and almost no teams can check against two Darkrai. For the second part, I guess that's true, but my point was that you can't depend on Klefki as your only check to Arceus, as the death of Klefki will signify that the team will no longer be able to deal with Arceus.
For the final part, I wondered how a Klefki is any better a counter to Arceus OR Ray, than Darkrai. Darkrai at least beats all non-lum variants without boosts, and some Darkrai can be EV'd to live a +2 Lum Arceus. Darkrai just has something Klefki doesn't. It OUTSPEED most of the relevant mon, without relying on Prankster. As long as Darkrai outspeeds, and the condition is met (opponent doesn't have priority that can KO Darkrai, doesn't have Lum Berry and doesn't already have status), it can proceed to sweep almost everything. And considering that it outspeeds most Pokemon, once it sets up, it's practically invincible. If you're just looking for those conditions, you can easily meet them at least 4 times a game. (Lead against practically anything but Arceus, Revenge Killing against Pokemon who already used up Lum Berry or never had it, Switching in on hazards and set up moves that doesn't increase speed) I find it that Rayquaza checks can also deal with Arceus, and vice versa. Pokemon like Ho-oh can beat Xerneas and CM Arceus. However, Darkrai usually need a specific counter just to beat it. (Running Lum Berry on a Pokemon like Ho-oh would hurt in every single situation other than when Darkrai is on field, when it could be using something like leftovers.) Even Gunner stated that it's "theoretically, it's the best mon in AG" and the limitation posed on Darkrai can usually be fixed by having multiple Darkrai (and yeah, AG doesn't have species clause) or building a team around Darkrai, to get rid of its "checks" and soft counters. (Lum Pokemon is only a check when you haven't consumed the Lum, unless you use Recycle.)

 

[Chloe]

Alright, let's get a final verdict on decisions such as:

A+ to S?

B- to B?

D to Unranked? ✓

(mega) B+ to something lower?

and anything I may have missed on my glancing over.

Also Sample Teams have been updated, Speed Tiers have also.
If you have a team you're willing to donate, it would be much appreciated.
For the Speed Tiers, let me know separately to this thread if I left important stuff out. Alternatively, if you plan on posting the tiers I left out here, make sure you have a fair few.

 

[hexandwhy]

Alright, let's get a final verdict on decisions such as:

A+ to S?

B- to B?

D to Unranked?

(mega) B+ to something lower?

and anything I may have missed on my glancing over.

Also Sample Teams have been updated, Speed Tiers have also.
If you have a team you're willing to donate, it would be much appreciated.
For the Speed Tiers, let me know separately to this thread if I left important stuff out. Alternatively, if you plan on posting the tiers I left out here, make sure you have a fair few.

I forget why Aron is going unranked, but fine with the other changes. Seriously, Sandstorm set up + Aron could sweep teams, although VERY situational. (No ghost on opponent teams, no rocky helmet, no will-o-wisp, etc) Even if you have rocky helmet or will-o-wisp, you're likely to have at least one of your mon turn into 12 HP. This could be a game changer when fighting mons like Rayquaza. Endeavor + revenge kill Arceus is pretty nice, too.

 

[MZ]

I forget why Aron is going unranked

Sandstorm is pretty much never up with triple amazing other weather setters and only Ttar (underrated but not good enough to compensate for how much sand does not work in this meta), there's three great ghosts in the A ranks plus the overrated regular giratina and the underrated mega sableye which automatically make it practically useless, it needs 100% hazard support, it cant beat status users (darkrai, klefki, wisp everything, etc), and all of this to justify its tiny niche of being able to kill something with sturdy endeavor. Oh and it switches in on absolutely nothing in a tier where you cant really afford a dead slot (see: numel). It goes beyond situational into bad gimmick, and there's a very good reason that it's not ranked in every other tier where they don't have ray/don neutralizing sandstorm on every single team (sand is even the most common weather in OU).
So yeah, that's why

 

[hexandwhy]

Sandstorm is pretty much never up with triple amazing other weather setters and only Ttar (underrated but not good enough to compensate for how much sand does not work in this meta), there's three great ghosts in the A ranks plus the overrated regular giratina and the underrated mega sableye which automatically make it practically useless, it needs 100% hazard support, it cant beat status users (darkrai, klefki, wisp everything, etc), and all of this to justify its tiny niche of being able to kill something with sturdy endeavor. Oh and it switches in on absolutely nothing in a tier where you cant really afford a dead slot (see: numel). It goes beyond situational into bad gimmick, and there's a very good reason that it's not ranked in every other tier where they don't have ray/don neutralizing sandstorm on every single team (sand is even the most common weather in OU).
So yeah, that's why

First, I agree with you. Second, Giratina isn't that overrated, imo. Pressure is a very good ability in AG, and the ability to hold leftovers along with having 20 more BST in each defenses is really good for a tank. Third, can we also push down Non-Mega Ray in to unranked? Anything it can do, Arceus can do better, pretty sure. Sure, Non-Mega Ray can use Air Lock Surf or some stupid shit to beat P-don, but C rank is way too good for that thing.

 

[AWILDBIBAREL]

I haven't been on in a long time, sad to see no one even said ded on my wall.

Okay so anyway I think someone should just make a FINAL decision on the Chansey/Blissey thing. Believe me, it's the same thing everytime it resurfaces. (I should know, I initiated it in the old thread.)
I should probably provide some replays (which are notably absent in this thread) but I think Quagsire should be unranked. A lot of Pokemon can 2HKO regardless of investment (giving it a lot of trouble switching in), and it's really passive. It also has a big weakness to MRAY:
252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
About every special attacker can OHKO it too, and it faces a bit of competition from the (probably better) Clefable.
This is an admittedly simple argument, and I'm sorry if I'm wasting thread space or starting another back-and-forth discussion.
hexandwhy I think the Ray thing is pretty similar (in theory) to whether Chansey/Blissey should be ranked. I think it shouldn't, but others might have a different view.

 

[hexandwhy]

I haven't been on in a long time, sad to see no one even said ded on my wall.

Okay so anyway I think someone should just make a FINAL decision on the Chansey/Blissey thing. Believe me, it's the same thing everytime it resurfaces. (I should know, I initiated it in the old thread.)
I should probably provide some replays (which are notably absent in this thread) but I think Quagsire should be unranked. A lot of Pokemon can 2HKO regardless of investment (giving it a lot of trouble switching in), and it's really passive. It also has a big weakness to MRAY:
252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
About every special attacker can OHKO it too, and it faces a bit of competition from the (probably better) Clefable.
This is an admittedly simple argument, and I'm sorry if I'm wasting thread space or starting another back-and-forth discussion.
hexandwhy I think the Ray thing is pretty similar (in theory) to whether Chansey/Blissey should be ranked. I think it shouldn't, but others might have a different view.

I'd say that Quagsire is better than Aron. I forget if Quag can stall out Ho-oh, however. If it can stall out Ho-oh + Arceus while spreading Toxic, I'd say it already deserves D rank by default. Also, Chansey and Blissey actually has a use. It stalls most non-boosting special attackers, can use aromatherapy/heal bell, and has a pretty decent movepool. The only thing Rayquaza has that makes him better than Arceus is his ability to use Dragon Dance, and his Air Lock. And Dragon Dance isn't that useful when SD E-speed does more damage, and Arceus hits harder and faster. Air Lock also means nothing, unless you want to use Surf against P-don, and Fire Blast against P-ogre. Obviously, sane people should only go for surf, because Fire Blast is pathetic against Kyogre.

 

[AWILDBIBAREL]

I'd say that Quagsire is better than Aron. I forget if Quag can stall out Ho-oh, however. If it can stall out Ho-oh + Arceus while spreading Toxic, I'd say it already deserves D rank by default. Also, Chansey and Blissey actually has a use. It stalls most non-boosting special attackers, can use aromatherapy/heal bell, and has a pretty decent movepool. The only thing Rayquaza has that makes him better than Arceus is his ability to use Dragon Dance, and his Air Lock. And Dragon Dance isn't that useful when SD E-speed does more damage, and Arceus hits harder and faster. Air Lock also means nothing, unless you want to use Surf against P-don, and Fire Blast against P-ogre. Obviously, sane people should only go for surf, because Fire Blast is pathetic against Kyogre.

Good points. However, the main issue with the Chansey/Blissey thing isn't the arguments themselves, it's just that everyone always makes the same points and says the same things (e.g. Mega Latios before its discussion points). Both getting ranked is a decent if not the best outcome, so you're not solving the problem there.
I think the main issue with ray is the mega thing. nearly everybody who uses ray uses its mega, and ray is of course outclassed by it. I think perhaps ray deserves a (low) rank for allowing you to use a mega slot though.

 

[hexandwhy]

Good points. However, the main issue with the Chansey/Blissey thing isn't the arguments themselves, it's just that everyone always makes the same points and says the same things (e.g. Mega Latios before its discussion points). Both getting ranked is a decent if not the best outcome, so you're not solving the problem there.
I think the main issue with ray is the mega thing. nearly everybody who uses ray uses its mega, and ray is of course outclassed by it. I think perhaps ray deserves a (low) rank for allowing you to use a mega slot though.

No, not really. Only difference between Mega Ray and neutral Ray is that Ray has 20 less speed on the first turn of mega evolving, and has 10 less defense bst on switch ins. Other than that, everyone Mega Evolves on turn 1. Neutral Ray should be D- rank, imo. Not even as good as Quagsire.

 

[MZ]

Btw hunterstorm and I have been added to the council but there was never a formal post

 

[Chloe]

Darkrai has been moved to S.
Skarmory has been moved to B.
Aron has been unranked.

Salamence-Mega hasn't been moved as of this stage.

Why is Darkrai S rank now?
Darkrai has become an extremely potent threat within the Anything Goes metagame. With Taunt becoming a more common option to Nasty Plot, its once checks have dealt with. Usually teams need a dedicated check for this pokémon so that it doesn't demolish them.

Darkrai has the ability to disable any pokémon if used correctly or in conjunction with the correct moveset. The once awfully unviable Darkrai spam teams low ladder, are becoming a definite threat high ladder.

This pokémon lacks the checks other pokémon get, with niche sets such as Bug Buzz Genesect and Pin Missile Scolipede becoming a thing. Mega Diancie can even fail if weakenned a tad prior to being sent in on this pokémon.
-------------------------
Thoughts on Blissey/Chansey debate?
Salamence-Mega ranking?
Disagree with the changes?
Other topics of interest?

 

[AWILDBIBAREL]

Darkrai has been moved to S.
Skarmory has been moved to B.
Aron has been unranked.

Salamence-Mega hasn't been moved as of this stage.

Thoughts on Blissey/Chansey debate?
Salamence-Mega ranking?
Other topics of interest?

Blissey and Chansey debate should be decided on by the council or something. As I said it's the same thing every time and really there's no particular reason to listen to one guy over another.
Salamence is actually really hard to rank, since it's in a unique position where Ray outclasses it offensively, it's defensive set has some merit yet no-one uses it. Either it moves down a lot or rises a rank.
(yes i know this comment isn't very helpful obligatory apology)
Thoughts?
edit: I know usage counts for nothing, that part is to make my point

 

[MZ]

On Blissey versus Chansey, it basically comes down to if anybody can provide calcs of significant hits chansey can live that's useful consistently to justify its use. Otherwise there's literally no reason to use it over the thing that can't be trapped. Not much content but what else needs to be said, and if anybody has these calcs then please post them because we'd likely simply leave them in D

On Salamance, pure defensive merit does not justify being a worse ray and there's no reason this shouldn't be in the C ranks, Gunner's Iron Defense set is incredibly obnoxious but you can't justify this at the same level as things like Arceus-Water or Deoxys-Attack which don't take up a Mega slot or suck. No way this thing rises, it's not a question of if it drops but where to.

I just noticed we have Arceus-Dragon in C-, this is a direct result of "nobody's really used it lol". It's basically the same thing as Arceus Water but you can actually *gasp* hit megaray. And Pdon. And if you're running Ice Beam Arc Water, you don't have moderately powerful STAB Judgement. No reason this shouldnt be bumped into C minimum, although obviously people need to start running it first and bring in more opinions. And it does come with the downsides of not hitting Keys/Diancie with water judgement, it's not exactly a clear cut case. Have barely used this but it's not a "garbage, level of regular sableye" mon. Speaking of which, has anybody ever used this? Oh and I retract Garchomp needing to drop, tested and it's surprisingly nice. The things that happen when you actually play the game.